Official BBR Tier List v7

[Supermodel From Paris]

There's also the fact that...

His fireballs are extremely fast in every game except Smash

He can ****ing chuck Bowser out of arenas, yet his throws and attacks are some of the weakest.

He has at least 4 powerups that let him fly, yet he still has one of the worst recoveries.

It just doesn't make sense.

Sonic and Link both suffer from this kind of thing. So many of Link's weaknesses could have been addressed with additions from his more recent games. His down-b could have transformed him into the wolf from TP or something too, would have been great.

Instead we got the same bad character we had in Smash 64 and Melee.

Don't even get me started on Sonic, what a lazy design.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sakurai was going for simplicity with Sonic's moveset, as a means of relating to the way the Sonic games played back on the Genesi, where all he did was spin in a ball and roll into enemies.

If it's a lazy design, it's not on Sakurai's hand any more than Sega's design from the get go.
I can only call it lazy from a visual perspective myself.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

In the genesis games, sonic had shields that gave him special power-ups.

Side-b could have been fire shield, up-b could have been lighting shield, down-b could have been spin dash. B could have been anything else, get that homing attack **** outta here.

 

[bubbaking]

But Homing Attack is arguably Sonic's most popular move, showing up in nearly EVERY Sonic game after Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

Oh man, I hope Smash 4 gives the Mario bros some of their attacks from the Mario & Luigi games. Think of some of the moves and combos they'd be able to do... Actually, I'm kinda hoping that Smash 4 gives a greater spotlight to theme teams this time around. You know, things like double Kong, Mario Bros, two Pokemon, etc. And since Smash 4 will be both on the WiiU and the 3DS and might have better online capability, maybe somehow, we'll get.....3v3 battles!

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mario can still do some nice U Air 'combo's' yet that's basically it. If he would've inheritated Doc's F Air and B Air from Melee I believe he'd be a thoussand times better already.

 

[Feels]

I think they really missed an opportunity with Mario not being able to glide, I think it would be great if in the next SSB they would make Mario able to glide with the Flying Squirrel suit or something along those lines. Iceballs would also be a good-mix up that would randomly show up instead of Fireballs

To be honest I think in the development team's attempt to make Mario the most balanced character they really made him worse, in general a lot of the stuff he does other characters simply do better.

 

[ぱみゅ]

"Mario - Average at everything means good at nothing"
I once read something along those lines in a Mario Kart Wiki and it pretty much translates well to Brawl (I'm pretty sure Sakurai didn't really take recovery into consideration).

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, gliding would have been really smooth for Mario in Brawl. Just whisk out that cape, hold it around his neck, and away he goes! Also, IMO, FLUDD singlehandedly nerfed Mario an entire tier. It took out the recovery potential of tornado, it does no damage, it's just......really bad.

 

[Feels]

Yeah, gliding would have been really smooth for Mario in Brawl. Just whisk out that cape, hold it around his neck, and away he goes! Also, IMO, FLUDD singlehandedly nerfed Mario an entire tier. It took out the recovery potential of tornado, it does no damage, it's just......really bad.

Thankfully I don't think that has a chance of returning with the new Galaxy games, hopefully this will give him a Powerful KO move as well as slight recovery.

 

[shinhed-echi]

My problem with the homing attack is how it works in Brawl.
Charge half an eternity, semi-circle home in on opponent, and hit its back.

Why couldn't it go straight like in P:M?



I actually like that he's all spinny. Kind of makes him a bit more unpredictable.
But I would have liked seeing other moves such as the shield moves from Sonic & Knuckles.

Or the moves from Sonic Battle... but I rather moves that are more true to his character.


SAMUS is one of the worst offenders too.
The missed opportunity of having Beam varieties (changeable through the use of the taunt button perhaps? Her visor color could change depending on her weapon:
Yellow visor = Plasma beam (3 paralel Falco-like lasers) (taunt UP)
Blue visor = Ice beam (slow, but freezes opponents on contact (like P:M's Lucas' Side+B)(taunt DOWN)
Green visor = Charge shot (Samus' default B)

To spice things up, her Visor moves could also change some of her moveset a bit, like her (Ice-beam)d-tilt for example could cause an opponent to trip. Imagine that followed by a Freeze Beam shot, and then switch to Charge. They could affect her Fair, and her Usmash as well. (Ranged Usmash for the love of all that's good! They did it for Snake, there is no excuse)


Her Dash Attack could be a small Turbo boost.

Up+B is fine
Grapple hook is more than fine
Down+B: I think I like the "Morhp Ball Mode" idea I heard here once.

Her new Final Smash attack would be either Power Bomb, or something related to Phazon from the MP series.

 

[Baskerville]

Yeah, gliding would have been really smooth for Mario in Brawl. Just whisk out that cape, hold it around his neck, and away he goes! Also, IMO, FLUDD singlehandedly nerfed Mario an entire tier. It took out the recovery potential of tornado, it does no damage, it's just......really bad.

If FLUDD actually had decent pushback, nullify certain projectiles and did actual damage it would be such a good move. Not only that, Mario doesn't really have any good kill moves.

 

[BSP]

Mario doesn't good anything IMO, outside of general attack speed, but that's masked by his non-existent range.

 

[KayB]

So remind me why ZSS isn't in B-tier yet?

More seriously, is Olimar a dumb character or something? Like is he really easy to place well with? People keep on calling him ******** and I can't tell if they mean dumb or frustratingly hard to fight against.

 

[ぱみゅ]

ZSS will probably place higher in the next Tier List.

The only "easy to place well with" character is MK (easy to pick-up and play, always has advantage; its con is that many people know the MU). The others need a lot of knowledge, skill, and practice to place well.

Basically, Olimar is a very solid character with a very strong defensive game that can stop virtually any approach, but he need to know how to manage Pikmins and which method (grab, Usmash, dash away and reset) is better for each circumstance.

 

[bubbaking]

But Olimar IS pretty ********...

 

[Shaya]

Olimar has really good match ups with a large portion of the cast. Most characters don't have multiple moves that are 8 frames or less disadvantage on his shield, nor combined with easy means of out prioritising Pikmin.

tl;dr you aren't Marth, Wario or Ice Climbers. Or Wolf. Or Falco, but his way of doing things are weird.

Basically Meta Knight has one and a half of the things required to have good footing against Oli. And because you aren't any of the aforementioned characters, you have it harder than Meta Knight.

 

[Vinylic.]

With advices like these:

Guys, learn to shuffle pikmin and constantly farm while fighting, makes a world of difference in most matchups.

It's pretty obvious that's olimar is a burden at some point.

 

[bubbaking]

No one said he isn't, but he's much less of a burden than at least 3/4 of the Brawl cast. Do you expect me to believe that shuffling Pikmin and 'farming' is supposed to be considered 'hard' compared to what a lot of other characters have to pull off regularly in almost every MU?

 

[-LzR-]

I also don't really understand why exactly Olimar is considered one of the hardest characters in the game. Sure, he is not easy, but hardest? With all of his crazy fast and powerful moves with amazing range? What am I missing here?

 

[bubbaking]

When you can cover and counter most of the options many chars have at any given time with only two moves (grab and usmash), I don't think you can claim that you play the hardest character. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say that MKs have to try harder to win because everyone knows how to fight them.

 

[Shaya]

Meta Knight at top level is surprisingly technically demanding for a Brawl character. It's kinda like every little niche thing he can do that makes him more broken in situations (like... battlefield) are all hard, individualistic things that to be seem a lot more requiring of precision than others that have a bit more emphasis on timing / 1-2 buttons after a PS technology punish / mental aspects.

Like, I can play a Marthy MK, but it's totally crappy because people have shields and MK isn't safe on shield unless you're amazing.

Also pikmin farming isn't "dry", it's something that isn't as heavily focused on by the top level olimars in the US, other than recently dabuz. Facing a line of 2-3 purples and the rest yellows is pretty much ball crunchingly gay, and it's not like Olimar's moveset is lagless, so effectively farming the ultimate pikmin chain without getting insta gimped (which happens enough anyway to underline the difficulty) isn't easy at all.

Nearly all the high/top tier characters have an extra level of "notch" on top of their characters that aren't even always effectively used by top level players. Meta Knight's is really technical; characters like ICs and Olimar are mentally intensive. It's crazy. I love it.

 

[-LzR-]

I agree that Meta Knight is very technical. He just has so many options it's basically the opponent who has to mixup as most of MKs options cover half of your moveset and probably more.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The most technical characters are probably MK, Peach, Diddy, Lucas, ZSS, Yoshi, and maybe the spacies. I've heard Falco is pretty technical but to be honest I haven't spent a lot of time playing him.

I think Sheik can be played in a way that is pretty technical but other than his DACUS it isn't really required. Ditto for a few other characters, like Marth. I used to say that about ZSS but given how far Salem has taken ZSS by implementing some tech skill I'd say that's no longer true.

Honorable mention to Link.

There's a lot of hidden tech skill in Brawl, the game has now evolved to a point where execution is pretty important. There are several characters in Brawl that are as technical as any melee character.

 

[Turazrok]

Name them.
Lolboredinpsychclass

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm glad you mentioned Yoshi or I would've flipped.
Though you Sheik a male...

 

[infiniteV115]

I'm glad you mentioned Yoshi or I would've flipped.
Though you Sheik a male...

Yes. Though he Sheik a male.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Name them.
Lolboredinpsychclass

ZSS, Yoshi, Lucas, Peach? Definitely Yoshi, at least.

I'm glad you mentioned Yoshi or I would've flipped.
Though you Sheik a male...

I play with a Yoshi main pretty regularly, trust me I know. His hands hurt after every session. :\

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yes. Though he Sheik a male.

Called, meh waking up johns.

ZSS, Yoshi, Lucas, Peach? Definitely Yoshi, at least.


I play with a Yoshi main pretty regularly, trust me I know. His hands hurt after every session. :\

Who's the Yoshi main out of curiosity? Also yeah, playing Yoshi is like using him in Melee.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Called, meh waking up johns.


Who's the Yoshi main out of curiosity? Also yeah, playing Yoshi is like using him in Melee.

NGFC, a Yoshi main in Portugal. He hasn't very active on SWF. Actually, I think for a while when I first met him, he used a thumb strap or something to make one of his techs easier, but then stopped using it. Yoshi is intense.

 

[SmashTrev]

I Know this is so off topic but for anyone who needs a clan i have made a Clan for Brawl Called
(BK) (Brawling Kings) if anyone of you want to join it please contact me if so. Remember its Brawl so but i think ill rap it up there today so bye cya later ps: idk how to send messages on this but ill figure it out today so ok bye

 

[Sinister Slush]

Sometimes it hurts to live.
For our hands at least?

 

[Delta-cod]

Hehe, I forget sometimes just how technical people are with Yoshi.

 

[Nike.]

WTF Slush, why do you always complain that you don't have ledge options? I just saw 22 in that vid.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I always love watching those 2 vids xD Surprisingly there's still some other stuff Yoshi can do. I wish there was a vid with slope tricks and some egg lay shenanigans.

 

[Sinister Slush]

WTF Slush, why do you always complain that you don't have ledge options? I just saw 22 in that vid.

Cause you can throw out your sword and cover all 22.

I always love watching those 2 vids xD Surprisingly there's still some other stuff Yoshi can do. I wish there was a vid with slope tricks and some egg lay shenanigans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpo3QuIG2fo
For egglay... don't think we have any all in one video. Though this guy likes Egglay.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yeah, sword kinda beats ledge tricksies.

Although I'd argue that we have decent enough ledge options already. I typically don't end up trapped on the ledge, and I just use ledge drops, ledge hops, and ECE.

 

[infiniteV115]

Fox is pretty technical in Brawl (moreso than Falco/Wolf I feel) but still probably not as technical as Yoshi/Peach imo.

And I really disagree with saying tech skill in Brawl is comparable to Melee. It isn't.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Yeah I agree with your last statement. Lol

 

[NickRiddle]

Character tech skill is probably higher in Brawl. Universal tech skill is MUCH higher in Melee.

 

[-LzR-]

A big reason why Melee is more technical is because of the lack of buffering.