Official BBR Tier List v7

[NickRiddle]

You can discuss all day, that isnt the issue. When mid-level players are part of the group actually putting "official" lists together, they get screwy.

 

[Luco]

They aren't are they? What did I miss? I was under the assumption that the BR put this stuff together (mostly: Obviously MU chart v3 is decided by the community but the panel leaders are selected by the BR and usually have some discrepancy when it comes to choosing panelists).

 

[NickRiddle]

Nobody ever said the BBR was only top level players.

 

[Luco]

Well since it's selective, you'd assume that there is at least some semblance of a better knowledge surrounding the game, wouldn't you? But true that, the BBR's official statement is, "Anyone with notable contributions to the community could get in." Basically, I could hold a few tournaments, do a few threads on frame data for different characters (or something like that) and apply.

Hmm...

 

[bubbaking]

It can't be helped Nick. If we were some traditional fighting game, like SF, we'd have tier lists made personally by each top player that felt like making one, as well as a community tier list, obviously made by and for the community. The same would go for MU charts. Where would that leave us in terms of credibility? From a high-level perspective, it's better in some ways because the top players obviously have their top level experience and knowledge, but at the same time, subjectivity would be nigh unavoidable and objectivity would be extremely difficult to prove. I guess that's what the community lists are for. Will SWF's featured games ever adopt that format? Who knows...?

Edit: Let's also not forget that the top players of FGs tend to re-formulate and release their personal tier lists and MU charts much more frequently than the Smash BRs do because their lists are probably more opinionated and sway more with how they've been doing lately.

 

[SoulPech]

Who at a Top/High level plays Puff competively?

 

[bubbaking]

I hope for heaven's sake that you are agreeing with me...

 

[Luco]

And considering the context, suddenly i'm not sure of what SoulPech is saying either. It's one of two very different things.

 

[infiniteV115]

I'm probably better than most of the people in the BBR XD

 

[bubbaking]

I hope for heaven's sake that YOU are agreeing with me...

 

[Luco]

I'm probably better than most of the people in the BBR XD

And me!

@Bubba: Afaik they're not 'disagreeing' with you, just haven't exactly agreed either. Chill buddy, you're fine. ^_^

 

[infiniteV115]

I only read Nick's posts so idk what you said, I'll check now.

...

Subjectivity exists among mid-level and low-level players too, you know.

 

[Luco]

Yes, what he's trying to say (I think? Correct me if i'm wrong) is that with any luck it would balance each other out. In some cases that's true, in others, it just so happens that everyone is thinking the same thing. Like how Nazi germany got everyone to hate jews. It may not have been the right thing to do, it just so happened that the majority wanted it.

I'd like to think we're NOT like that and actually put some effort and objectivity in to our posts but I haven't been with this community (especially higher-level players) to truly say.

EDIT: Sorry for the really extreme analogy. If it makes any difference at all, i'm jewish so... yeah.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, I'm joking (both times), but in response to V115's latest post, I will say that community lists fueled by debate between panels tends to eliminate some (not all) subjectivity and it's also more credible. That said, nothing's perfect. I personally think that the sheer number of +4's in our MU chart is a reasonable display of opinionated bias, because results have already proven some of them wrong. The very nature of our MU evaluation system, I feel, promotes some level of subjectivity.

@Luco: Yes, that's a good way of putting it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Characters actually being good. I am of the opinion that almost everybody is stupid as ****, so anything made by stupid people is flawed. Esp. Tier lists and MU charts where mid-level players are giving mid-level input as if it helps.

Unfortunately with the limited number of people who are willing to help with these, it's not avoidable.

The BBR tried it that way before with only top players giving input and it failed really hard.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I disagree with this. Bowser needs a lot to be top tier. For one, every Top Tier (other than Oli) has a passable recovery that doesn't get shut down from being meteored. His attack speed and moveset also doesn't compliment his movement speed and they leave blind spots. Altering his moveset alone would be a major change. Btw, Bowser's upB doesn't hit on frame 1, it is simply invincible on frame 1 (until frame 5). It hits on frame 6. This is probably what you meant, but it's really an entirely different concept between having a frame 1 upB and an upB with frame 1 invincibility.

Lol at shut down from being meteored, stop reading there

meteor KOs are not something that happen consistently to any good player regardless of character

 

[Tesh]

@ bubba olimar's recovery is better than you give it credit for. the frame data on whistle makes it possible for him to just go through anything he wants from almost every character. at half the commitment of an AD, only MK and snake can really frame trap him.

tethers also meteor cancel very well and that lagless hop is just the most annoying thing.

 

[SoulPech]

Unfortunately with the limited number of people who are willing to help with these, it's not avoidable.

The BBR tried it that way before with only top players giving input and it failed really hard.

What's wrong with having High level or Mid-High level players? What about people like CJ? I don't know a Top or High/TOP player that plays Puff competively (lol). Most Top Level players play High-Tier characters, so It's difficult for those who use lower-tier characters. Not to mention, most top players care about winning and not so much on advancing the meta, IMO.

 

[bubbaking]

DDD can gimp Olimar too, either by baiting the whistle with the threat of bair (the same way he'd bait ADs from other chars) or he can fair through him and bair, which I guess is his own kind of frame trap.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What's wrong with having High level or Mid-High level players? What about people like CJ? I don't know a Top or High/TOP player that plays Puff competively (lol). Most Top Level players play High-Tier characters, so It's difficult for those who use lower-tier characters. Not to mention, most top players care about winning and not so much on advancing the meta, IMO.

There isn't but people like M2K wanted the BBR to be just top players and that failed pretty hard with large inactivity and people just not caring, being busy, or just downright horrible to discuss anything with.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

being a top player doesn't mean you understand anything about anything outside your own character's bubble of MUs. I mean to a Marth Dedede is an actual tourney threat, and may rank in that players head much higher than for say a Metaknight, who has their way with Dedede on a regular basis.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Most people in the BBR applied for the position, the applications got evaluated and people were selected by BBR leaders based on them. I'm pretty sure this only involves the understanding of several important aspects of the game, being able to type them down in posts and of course, debating properly.

Now, understanding the game doesn't mean you are able to play it at top level, there are many factors behind that, like reaction time, speed of the fingers, and just for the sake of the argument I'll say you can even be crippled and missing one hand, but understand the game deep enough to give a good input.

Why are we having this discussion, again?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Because people don't like some of the people who work in the BBR or it's projects in terms of skill.

 

[ぱみゅ]

This MU requires a TON of patience, I find myself rarely using dsmash in it. I find I'm using jab more as a gtfo move than the typical fsmash. It really comes down to how patient you are with Zelda, trust me it got to the point I just ran away without the intent of ever hitting her waiting for her to approach me, since this is where Zelda shines.

Peach doesn't approach, she has turnips to add an element to her pressure. She has many tools and can stay safe against Zelda really well.
Finding openings is just too hard against Peach.

As a Peach main... it might also help that I know a lot of Peach's flaws and I def know when she can be punished. Zelda is def a secondary of mine though, who recently I've been putting more time into. Afaik Zelda is pretty dead in rep, could explain why there's not much going for her. Though Zelda is not doing too bad in this specific mu.

Fair enough.

I also think Zelda is not THAT bad to be placed where she is now, but the fact where she is in the tier doesn't matter regardless I guess nothing changes if she stays where she is. Imho I believe she's either top of Bottom tier, or bottom of low tier.

I am not sure.
I mean, even bottom tiered characters can still be good.
Zelda has the exact same tools that made her Mid Tier back in the v1 of the list. Other characters kept improving and showing what they are capable of, but Zelda is still the same, even a little better than then.

 

[Iota]

DDD can gimp Olimar too, either by baiting the whistle with the threat of bair (the same way he'd bait ADs from other chars) or he can fair through him and bair, which I guess is his own kind of frame trap.

Gimping Olimar is a very possible thing to do for several characters, but it's a lot harder then it seems. He shouldn't be dying from simple things like the CG->spike from Falco because Falco doesn't have enough frame advantage to grab the ledge before Olimar up-bs to it.

 

[Luco]

I find olimar to be very easy to gimp (as a Ness/Lucas main: Yay multi-hit Fairs/Nairs! ). Once he's out far enough that his recovery won't put him back onstage, ledge-hog and it's a dead olimar in my case. That said, there are characters that can't take advantage of it so easily.

My brother uses Oli as a secondary right now... He's not exactly a top olimar (lol) but that's the experience i'm basing it off. He's had Oli for a good while now and it's hard versing his Oli for me so... I take what I learn from him and apply it, unless I have someone more experienced to confirm a suspicion. What i'm trying to say is, in my experience, I don't find olimar to be quite as high. 3rd or 4th, as I said, is my perfect place for him. He's still an amazing character: I just see off-stage for him as a flaw against a few characters.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I keep getting you confused with SD because of the avatars. XD

Bowser the Train and Supreme Dirt are the same person.

He changed his name.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Bowser sucks. Even if you gave him faster attacks, he still wouldn't be able to force an approach.

 

[BSP]

There's also

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Bowser sucks. Even if you gave him faster attacks, he still wouldn't be able to force an approach.

Like Meta Knight, Marth and Wario?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Like Meta Knight, Marth and Wario?

They are good at approaching though. Bowser isn't good at either. He has pretty crappy aerials

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I never can figure out where Bowser is overall, he has pros to him that actually look better than what a lot of low tiers have, then again he has cons that really worse than some low tiers have.

He has extremes.

 

[Luco]

I'd say Bowser is roughly good where he's at currently, he has to approach and some characters can take advantage of that, among range issues on some moves and speed/lag on others. That said, he has some nice moves that I doubt would put him lower than he is.

 

[bubbaking]

He has huge blindspots, from what I've seen. His best defense for those spots is the ROTATION! but unlike the Hyuuga's ultimate defense, it can be baited and punished. If Bowser waits for someone to touch his shield, he can end up grabbed. If Bowser tries to Fortress when someone gets too close, then it can be baited again. That's how I see it, anyway. DDD's a good grappler cuz he has other good traits and more options. Bowser's just.....a bad grappler.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think the best they could do for him is give him super armor on all his laggy attacks

 

[bubbaking]

You mean the best they could do for him is what P:M and Minus have already done for him?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Or only for Fsmash, lower the risk on his most rewarding move.
Anyway, I am always scared of Bowser in the air, that Claw is a huge threat.
Sadly for him, he's bad at everything else...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You mean the best they could do for him is what P:M and Minus have already done for him?

I guess. I never played those games

 

[Luigi player]

Bowser should've been able to shoot "firerockets" (from SMB) since Melee!

 

[DMG]

Bowser should have an attack that lets him skateboard