Official BBR Tier List v7

[Grim Tuesday]

Sheilda should not have her own spot on the tier list

goddamn

 

[ぱみゅ]

We should only have Zelda and Sheik, or only Sheilda. IMO.

 

[Judo777]

J ur pics are so good. Except ur last one wasn't that good IMO

 

[infiniteV115]

Should be only Sheilda imo

Also I find it strange how some people don't think Marth is top tier considering how solid his MU spread is (mostly because Falco is more or less universally considered top tier and he gets hard countered by ICs and Pika, I don't see how Falco > Marth) but I guess Marth lacks results. :\

Also I know people (ok, a person) who thinks ZSS is 6th best in the game. I believe his list was like

MK
ICs
Olimar
Diddy
Marth
ZSS
Falco
Snake
Lucario
Pikachu
Wario

O.o

 

[#HBC | J]

J ur pics are so good. Except ur last one wasn't that good IMO

Haha well thanks, Judo. Last one had a cute smile.

We should only have Zelda and Sheik, or only Sheilda. IMO.

This is my opinion on the Sheilda matter.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Only Z/S, one character doesn't need two slots.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Only Sheilda is really silly.

The point of a tier list is to convey useful information to it's readers; not listing 90% of Zelda's match-ups doesn't make any sense with that in mind.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

The problem with Shielda is that you can't actually use Zelda and Shiek at the same time, cuz they aren't the ICs. You can only have one out at a time, and for any given matchup, one of them is just going to be better than the other.

Now, the problem with having ONLY Shielda is that just because someone put the time and effort into learning one of them, doesn't mean they put the time and effort into learning the other one too. They're different characters that function independently of one another. They need to be represented separately for the sake of their matchups being totally different. People who main both characters are smart enough to figure out how effective the combination is.

Having Shielda on the tier list is essentially the same thing as representing a combination of Snake and Wario for people who happen to use both characters. It's pointless and dumb.

 

[-LzR-]

It's just that almost everyone who uses Zelda or Sheik chooses to stick with them and not bother learning another meh character along the way.

 

[infiniteV115]

You can only have one out at a time, and for any given matchup, one of them is just going to be better than the other.

While this is true, the combination of Sheilda is always going to be better than the solo character with the better MU.
eg Sheik loses -3 to Pikachu because of the cg whereas Zelda doesn't get CGed, and from what I've been hearing it's -1 (even if it's -2 it's still not as bad as Sheik's MU) so you have 2 options;
-Use Zelda, the 2nd worst character in the game, for the entire match
-Use Zelda until you're above cg percents and switch for whatever reason. Perhaps you switch so you can kill with air release --> dacus, perhaps you switch and switch back solely for the purpose of refreshing all your moves. Perhaps you switch because you think Sheik does better than Zelda once the cg is taken out of the equation. etc etc (I don't play either character so it's hard for me to come up with things)
Sheilda is, by definition, the optimal combination of both characters. It doesn't mean using them each 50% of the time. If there's a MU that calls for using Zelda 90% of the time, that's Sheilda. If it calls for using Sheik 90% of the time, that's still Sheilda.
More often than not, I imagine Sheilda is just using Sheik to rack up damage and then score the kill with Zelda. Sheik is notorious for her lack of kill power whereas Zelda has tons of it (most of it isn't realiable but usmash and dsmash are, I imagine ftilt isn't too bad either) and it forces your opponent to know both MUs.
Also, look at what you said again. The same thing could be said for PT, doesn't mean all 3 pokemon should be on the list XD

Now, the problem with having ONLY Shielda is that just because someone put the time and effort into learning one of them, doesn't mean they put the time and effort into learning the other one too. They're different characters that function independently of one another. They need to be represented separately for the sake of their matchups being totally different. People who main both characters are smart enough to figure out how effective the combination is.

If somebody uses ONLY Zelda and not Sheik, or vice versa, then that just means they're using Sheilda without using her to her fullest potential.
Same reason we don't have Sopo or Nolimar on the list, or ZSS without her suitpieces, or Diddy without bananas. Just because some people choose to limit their options with a character and get results that way, doesn't mean that their take on the character deserves a slot on the tier list.
Technically, yes, by making this argument I do think it means that I'd also have to agree that Samus-->ZSS should be a spot on the tier list rather than having both characters there separately.
I suppose the only problem this brings up is the fact that with Sheilda in mid tier or Samus-->ZSS in high tier, it seems like Zelda and Samus are illegal in low-tier tournies. But if anything the host could just clarify and say that they're allowed.

Having Shielda on the tier list is essentially the same thing as representing a combination of Snake and Wario for people who happen to use both characters. It's pointless and dumb.

The difference should be obvious. You can use Zelda and Sheik in the same match XD

 

[Tesh]

While you logically shouldn't have to rank playstyles on the tier list (bananaless diddy for mid tier), its just for Zelda in low tier really.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Read my post, V115.

Having just Sheilda on the tier list is NOT helpful, no matter how objectively logical it may seem. Having her on the list at all is pointless when her MU ratios can be inferred from looking at Sheik's and Zelda's.

 

[Laem]

stuff

Heh you make a solid point. I do still think it would be way more practical to keep both chars on the tierlist: merge character boards? merge MU's? The more detailed explanation needed for each MU (Sheilda 60:40 X doesnt tell you anything then lol)? Nah, just 2 seperate characters seems to me the way to go.

 

[infiniteV115]

I mean it doesn't really make a difference whether you have Zelda+Sheik+Sheilda on the list, or just Sheilda, and frankly I don't really care which one happens, but I just don't see how you can argue that it should be Zelda+Sheik-Sheilda

In other words, Sheilda should always be on the list. Either by itself or alongside Zelda and Sheik. I suppose the latter is better solely for the purpose of the low tier tourney point I brought up

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think the only reason it would make sense to keep them separated is that we already have "culture" built around discussing them as separate entities. It's a lot of work to combine them with very little payoff. What does the shift in paradigm give us, exactly, other than the knowledge that we've assumed a superior logical position? lol

 

[infiniteV115]

And for that culture thingy that SFP just brought up

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I see no reason to exclude Sheilda as long as her outlier tournament results/money earnt/usage/etc... don't make her inclusion useless.

 

[Ishiey]

I think the only reason it would make sense to keep them separated is that we already have "culture" built around discussing them as separate entities. It's a lot of work to combine them with very little payoff. What does the shift in paradigm give us, exactly, other than the knowledge that we've assumed a superior logical position? lol

Nothing, as far as I've been able to tell.

But logic! It makes superior sense!

tbh we're *probably* going to take the simplest route possible and consider them as separate characters, with a small aside about Sheilda being right above Sheik due to a few better MUs, etc.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

With that said, if we could go back in time, I'd have combined them in a heartbeat.

 

[da K.I.D.]

this is the one time melee community got something right, theres shouldnt be a sheilda on this tierlist for the same reason sheilda isnt on the melee tierlist.

 

[Life]

I sort of understand Shielda in Brawl since Zelda is good for a couple things IIRC (Pikachu MU is supposedly better or something like that), but I don't think it's drastic enough to change tier placement.

Now in hacks like PM where Zelda is useful? Yeah, Shielda makes sense.

 

[Lukingordex]

We must have Zelda and Sheik separated,not Sheilda.

Let me give a example: Sheik has a +3 on Lucas,but Zelda has a -2 on Lucas.
Why should Sheik switch to Zelda in a MU like this?

Also in the Pikachu MU,Sheik has a -3 against Pikachu,and Zelda has a -1/-2,why should Zelda switch to Sheik in that MU?


Also,for obvious reasons,we can't compare Sheilda with PT.

 

[Fuujin]

>>2012
>>still thinking Zelda has any -1 MUs with anyone above lower mid tier(other than arguably Dedede)

 

[Lukingordex]

Pikachu was just a hypothesis,I don't said Zelda really has +1/+2 or anything,that was just a example to explain why Sheilda does not make much sense.

But Lucas is real,he really has -3 against Sheik and a certain advantage against Zelda.

 

[Fuujin]

But Lucas has certain advantage against Zelda.

I know this all to well sis.


http://youtu.be/J3HntdnjhQM?t=3m42s

 

[Flayl]

That looked like you were airdodging into him but what do I know

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

 

[Fuujin]

except I actually beat him 2-0 the tournament before that one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyHoq-KDFtA

and I still think it's a -2 for.

You tried it though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sorry, I was just trying to communicate with gifs which seems to be the only language you understand

I don't really know how good you are or care, but your contribution to this thread has basically been a completely false sassiness and a few gifs you downloaded from tumblr so I don't really know why you think anyone should listen to you

Like, GROSS. Sorry, i don't have a gif for that.

 

[Fuujin]

Sorry, I was just trying to communicate with gifs which seems to be the only language you understand

but your contribution to this thread has basically been a completely false sassiness and a few gifs you downloaded from tumblr so I don't really know why you think anyone should listen to you

Like, GROSS. Sorry, i don't have a gif for that.

Honestly I don't know why you gurls get so mad when I spill the tea.

Probably because my post are opinionated but are always lie free and on point.

a few gifs you downloaded from tumblr so I don't really know why you think anyone should listen to you

Don't forget ATRL http://atrl.net/forums/showthread.php?t=175522

 

[da K.I.D.]

youre posts are only lie free because they are opinionated as hell and technically speaking an opinion cant be wrong. Even though realistically, you are a fair amount of the time.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wow, where's the like button?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Also in the Pikachu MU,Sheik has a -3 against Pikachu,and Zelda has a -1/-2,why should Zelda switch to Sheik in that MU?

Because it's only -3 due to the chain-grab. Once Zelda is out of CG %, Sheik has a better MU.

This is actually the greatest thing

 

[Fuujin]

youre posts are only lie free because they are opinionated as hell and technically speaking an opinion cant be wrong. Even though realistically, you
are a fair amount of the time.

Show me some post where I'm wrong.

 

[Jimmy?]

Even if Sheik has a worse matchup against Pikachu, it doesn't necessarily make more sense to play Zelda during that match instead of Sheik.

Like, playing Sheik doesn't necessitate that you play Zelda.

This is, like, a game. and people play games to have fun. And to play a game like Smash to have fun, you can either play a character that makes you a bunch of money (not Sheik or Zelda), or a character you enjoy. Zelda and Sheik, while being attached by transform, do not play the same. There's no reason to expect someone who plays one character to play the other. Unlike with Pokémon Trainer, the change is not forced upon you. You aren't required to play Ivysaur with Sheik.

I don't really understand the need for Sheilda. Maybe that can be a consideration for certain matches, in which someone would actually consider switching from one to the other (I don't think MK players having trouble with the Sheik match up need to learn how to beat Zelda), but as a full place on the tier list? It seems redundant.

Getting rid of Sheik and Zelda and just having Sheilda would unnecessarily complicate some match up discussions since some people might actually be under the impression that transform is something they have to worry about....

In addition to that, a match up discussion for a Sheik player that goes "Play Zelda against Pikachu" doesn't say anything. If you have to discuss a match up from both Zelda's and Sheik's perspective in the first place, what's the point in combining them....

 

[Judo777]

Even if Sheik has a worse matchup against Pikachu, it doesn't necessarily make more sense to play Zelda during that match instead of Sheik.

Like, playing Sheik doesn't necessitate that you play Zelda.

This is, like, a game. and people play games to have fun. And to play a game like Smash to have fun, you can either play a character that makes you a bunch of money (not Sheik or Zelda), or a character you enjoy. Zelda and Sheik, while being attached by transform, do not play the same. There's no reason to expect someone who plays one character to play the other. Unlike with Pokémon Trainer, the change is not forced upon you. You aren't required to play Ivysaur with Sheik.

I don't really understand the need for Sheilda. Maybe that can be a consideration for certain matches, in which someone would actually consider switching from one to the other (I don't think MK players having trouble with the Sheik match up need to learn how to beat Zelda), but as a full place on the tier list? It seems redundant.

Getting rid of Sheik and Zelda and just having Sheilda would unnecessarily complicate some match up discussions since some people might actually be under the impression that transform is something they have to worry about....

In addition to that, a match up discussion for a Sheik player that goes "Play Zelda against Pikachu" doesn't say anything. If you have to discuss a match up from both Zelda's and Sheik's perspective in the first place, what's the point in combining them....

I'm having a hard time following this so sry if this answer doesnt apply to what ur saying.

Sheilda pika MU plays like this. Start off as Zelda, play her until you take about 55% then try your hardest to find a good time to switch. Like without the CG Sheik does pretty well vs Pika but there is no way to have a chance if you risk taking 112% off of one grab. So use Zelda as an added def vs the grab then try to switch when you can.

It does make a pretty big difference.

 

[BJN39]

Let me give a example: Sheik has a +3 on Lucas,but Zelda has a -2 on Lucas.
Why should Sheik switch to Zelda in a MU like this?

"Zelda has a -2 on Lucas."

I know this is a little late but, is this your opinion? because i'm pretty sure it's only a -1.

 

[Lukingordex]

-2 or -1,does not make sence to play Zelda on this MU since Sheik can **** Lucas very well,unless you're in a low tier tournament.

Can you give your opinion about that MU?
I just want to see your opinion,I'll explain my opinion later.

 

[BJN39]

Can you give your opinion about that MU?
I just want to see your opinion,I'll explain my opinion later.

Oh, i'm sorry, i'm not actually that knowledged in MUs, (AKA i'm dumb ) my though was mostly based off of the MU chart. I was just interested because the MU chart says -1.

 

[#HBC | J]

Lucas' MU chart is really skewed. =p