Official BBR Tier List v6

[Doc King]

Doc King, at least stop talking about other characters when you don't know them. DDD is not harder for Ganon than Snake is. Snake is ****ing terrible for Ganon.

Everybody is terrible for Ganon. Also, you don't seem to know how D3 works on Ganon either.

Ganon can actually APPROACH D3. And don't tell me "Waddle Dee Toss." A good Snake can camp a Ganon all day. I've seen a match where the Snake NEVER took a hit. It was incredible ****.

What the hell?

Ganon can't approach a D3 that well if he's throwing waddle dee. Ganon is slower than D3 on the ground and he can't fly in the air like D3 can.

Literally Ganon can actually approach anybody, even mk. It's just so hard to do it though.

guys pretty much every high tier can just completely shut ganon down. it's just a matter of how easily. like lucario is one of ganon's easiest high tier matchups and he pretty much needs a hard read to even get in... and even when he gets in... lucario is better inside and can get crazy amounts of damage off of strings.

Ganon does need hard reads to get in on opponents and he gets punished a lot.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Everybody is terrible for Ganon.

So I hear Falcon is terrible for Ganon.

 

[ElDominio]

So I hear Falcon is terrible for Ganon.

So I hear Ganon is terrible for Ganon.

 

[Doc King]

So I hear Falcon is terrible for Ganon.

I meant terrible as in bad.

Just wondering, but who do you guys think are Ganon's best matchups overall? I think his best ones are like this (ditto doesn't count):

-1 matchups

1) Falcon
2) Bowser
3) Zelda
4) Link
5) Puff

 

[Z'zgashi]

Doc King, why are you talking MUs in the Tier List thread and Tier List placement in the MU Thread?

 

[Doc King]

Doc King, why are you talking MUs in the Tier List thread and Tier List placement in the MU Thread?

I'm not really paying attention to the forum I'm on. I just act like they're both the same thing.

 

[DeLux]

They aren't the same thing.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

This thread is so much better when you don't see Doc Kings posts.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

This thread is so much better when you don't see Doc Kings posts.

Not really, everybody keeps either replying to him or quoting him.

So, in more relevant news: who is expecting overrated Pikachu MU numbers, which in turn will lead to Pikachu having an overrated tier location next update?

 

[Doc King]

They aren't the same thing.

Oh wow, I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me.

Spoiler

Lol @ Sarcasm!

Not really, everybody keeps either replying to him or quoting him.

So, in more relevant news: who is expecting overrated Pikachu MU numbers, which in turn will lead to Pikachu having an overrated tier location next update?

Well imo. Pika is a lot about theorycrafting. And I think that Matchup charts are about more theory and tier list are more about tourney placings, money, and stuff like that.

So there could be a good chance of it happening.

 

[Coney]

People arguing in earnest about who destroys Ganondorf harder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI3DlIrvoHg

 

[Doc King]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI3DlIrvoHg

Ganon mains.

 

[Xubble]

What the hell?

Ganon can't approach a D3 that well if he's throwing waddle dee. Ganon is slower than D3 on the ground and he can't fly in the air like D3 can.

Literally Ganon can actually approach anybody, even mk. It's just so hard to do it though.

First of all, have you never heard of SHADing? You know, short hop air dodging? You can move as you do it, and you can avoid lots of things. Like a Waddle Dee. Hell, I'd say a Waddle Dee is the easiest thing to avoid if you use SHADing to approach.

So Ganon can easily make it to D3.

Second, you could say that you could beat MK with only Falcon Knees, "it's just so hard to do though." It doesn't eliminate the fact that in practice, Ganon can NOT approach everybody. Falco and his lasers are a huge pain in the ***, Snake can control the entire stage. And for the record, ANYBODY can approach MK since he HAS NO PROJECTILE (in the sense that approaching = getting within attack range).

Finally, you're a tryhard. You want to make any sort of impact on these boards outside of being the biggest troll? Then get a grip on what is REALISTICALLY meaningful, not some damn grab release infinite on Ness or how to tech chase a Puff. Those things are MEANINGLESS. You are somehow not comprehending this.

 

[Laem]

A better way to approach approaching (pun intended) is determining capability to land hits in a neutral position, not capability to close distance. Especially when talking about how difficult it is to approach with X.

 

[Doc King]

First of all, have you never heard of SHADing? You know, short hop air dodging? You can move as you do it, and you can avoid lots of things. Like a Waddle Dee. Hell, I'd say a Waddle Dee is the easiest thing to avoid if you use SHADing to approach.

So Ganon can easily make it to D3.

Second, you could say that you could beat MK with only Falcon Knees, "it's just so hard to do though." It doesn't eliminate the fact that in practice, Ganon can NOT approach everybody. Falco and his lasers are a huge pain in the ***, Snake can control the entire stage. And for the record, ANYBODY can approach MK since he HAS NO PROJECTILE (in the sense that approaching = getting within attack range).

Finally, you're a tryhard. You want to make any sort of impact on these boards outside of being the biggest troll? Then get a grip on what is REALISTICALLY meaningful, not some damn grab release infinite on Ness or how to tech chase a Puff. Those things are MEANINGLESS. You are somehow not comprehending this.

Same thing can be said with D3 with Yoshi's egg throws. You can't ignore shield pressuring. Like D3 can easily shield Falco's lazers and Yoshi's egg throws, but at times he will have some time getting to Falco and Yoshi. D3 can easily shield pressure Ganon with waddle dee's and he can jump in the air like 4 times so Ganon can't land anything. Not to mention that D3 is actually faster than him.

Edit: Also, D3 can outrange pretty much all of his attacks and if he lands a move, he will get severely punished.

 

[Z'zgashi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI3DlIrvoHg

The funny thing is, right when Doc Koing asked who Ganon's top easiest MU's are, i legitimately thought what Peter said word for word.

Also, D3 is only faster on the ground, if D3 is in the air, Ganon moves faster there and his running speed is actually faster than D3's air speed, so really, you are only faster than him if you stay grounded.

 

[Xubble]

I never said a damn thing about shielding. Air dodge =/= shielding.

He can outrange, yes, but so can Snake. And Snake can do it better with ftilt, utilt, and jab as a gtfo move. The thing with Snake is that once you're out of range, getting back
to him is a major *****. It's much easier to just air dodge a Waddle Dee flying by since D3 can't punish it in any way.

And wtf jumps, D3 has to come down EVENTUALLY. And his air mobility is worse than Ganon's ground mobility, so he's suspect to juggling if he wastes his jumps.


God, am I really arguing about Ganon MUs in the Tier list thread? How dare you bring me down to your pitiful level. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[da K.I.D.]

So, in more relevant news: who is expecting overrated Pikachu MU numbers, which in turn will lead to Pikachu having an overrated tier location next update?

In all fairness, even if pikachus matchups turn out over rated, any rise he gets in the tier list will be completely valid. Pikachu is top tier. Ive been saying this for like 2 years now.

 

[infiniteV115]

Prediction for Tier List v7

Everyone from Diddy to Pika is tied for 1st

 

[Jimmyfosho]

there should pretty much be a spot for ESAM and then a spot for the actual character.

 

[Xubble]

Screw Melee's Elite 4, Brawl will have an Elite 8.

 

[infiniteV115]

Esam should be banned

 

[zmx]

First of all, have you never heard of SHADing? You know, short hop air dodging? You can move as you do it, and you can avoid lots of things. Like a Waddle Dee. Hell, I'd say a Waddle Dee is the easiest thing to avoid if you use SHADing to approach.

So Ganon can easily make it to D3.

Second, you could say that you could beat MK with only Falcon Knees, "it's just so hard to do though." It doesn't eliminate the fact that in practice, Ganon can NOT approach everybody. Falco and his lasers are a huge pain in the ***, Snake can control the entire stage. And for the record, ANYBODY can approach MK since he HAS NO PROJECTILE (in the sense that approaching = getting within attack range).

Finally, you're a tryhard. You want to make any sort of impact on these boards outside of being the biggest troll? Then get a grip on what is REALISTICALLY meaningful, not some damn grab release infinite on Ness or how to tech chase a Puff. Those things are MEANINGLESS. You are somehow not comprehending this.

1.
I advise you not to call anyone else a tryhard when you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't even main Ganon or DDD and both of them are better than yours.

2. At high level play air dodges, especially early ones are easily punishable.

3. You don't understand what approach means. We are not talking about being at one end of the screen and getting to the other. We are talking about getting to the ideal spacing to do damage.

4. Ganon has no safe way to approach DDD or MK. MK outranges everything he has and can prevent him from ever getting into a position to do damage and so can DDD. DDD in particular can just chaingrab Ganon after one mistake and force him to the ledge. Now even while he tries to get back on he'll take more damage.

So in short, DDD is a far worse MU for Ganon than snake. You've obviously never faced an even half competent DDD while playing Ganon.

 

[Laem]

^
1. Your basis regarding being better than him would be...?
2. SHADing through thrown waddle dees is purely, absolutely 100% completely safe.
3. approaching =/= getting to the ideal spacing to do damage
4. Correct, kind of. I can't stress enough that whenever some1 discusses ganon they're ALWAYS talking about ganon's helplessness when HE'S approaching, never when he's getting approached himself.

btw i totally see ESAM on the tierlist happening, just like reflex

 

[zmx]

^
1. Your basis regarding being better than him would be...?
2. SHADing through thrown waddle dees is purely, absolutely 100% completely safe.
3. approaching =/= getting to the ideal spacing to do damage
4. Correct, kind of. I can't stress enough that whenever some1 discusses ganon they're ALWAYS talking about ganon's helplessness when HE'S approaching, never when he's getting approached himself.

btw i totally see ESAM on the tierlist happening, just like reflex

1. I've faced him online many times. Don't expect just because someone is a self proclaimed x main they are bound to know what they are talking about.

2. No it isn't. After the air dodge they can just ftilt you if you are close enough or inhale you.
If you are talking about when one was further away than this range, then that's not the point. You could just shield all the waddle dees and not approach at all. Air dodging into someone is not safe as Ganon.

3. So you think Ganon can approach MK then? If your definition is just approaching from across the screen then maybe.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

In all fairness, even if pikachus matchups turn out over rated, any rise he gets in the tier list will be completely valid. Pikachu is top tier. Ive been saying this for like 2 years now.

Basically what the others are saying/what I argued about with PT for like a year until I was finally proven correct: It's not Pikachu that's THAT good, it's ESAM. Except we're talking about a high tier character instead of a low tier character now.

 

[Xubble]

Post 1:

1. I KNOW what I'm talking about. I also find it humorous how you judge my ability by how I play on WIFI.

2. You must have ignored my earlier post. D3 can't punish SHADing through a Waddle Dee. He just has too much lag afterwards, and he's not mobile enough to get to wherever Ganondorf happens to land.

3. You failed to understand the message I was getting across to Doc King. Ganon can NOT approach everybody. I should have said "get close" instead of "approach," but I made clear what the context of the word "approach" in that sentence was.

4. Ganon gets by from punishing. A good Ganon player will get close enough to avoid any immediate retaliation (i.e. ftilt from D3) and punish whatever move he can. I perhaps wasn't clear, but anybody who tries to full out approach and go agro with Ganon isn't very good. I was sure that was understood.


Post 2:

1. See Post 1.

2. What stupid D3 is throwing Waddle Dees within ftilt range? lol. And who air dodges INTO someone? lol.

3. See Post 1.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Basically what the others are saying/what I argued about with PT for like a year until I was finally proven correct: It's not Pikachu that's THAT good, it's ESAM. Except we're talking about a high tier character instead of a low tier character now.

What about when Anther was beating everyone with pikachu. And what about when pikapika (The person who I got all of my pikachu knowledge from) was getting top 8 in nationals? The difference between this and the reflex situation, is that there has always be a top national placing active pikachu main since the game came out and it wasnt always the same person.

 

[zmx]

1. I've faced him online many times. Don't expect just because someone is a self proclaimed x main they are bound to know what they are talking about.

2. No it isn't. After the air dodge they can just ftilt you if you are close enough or inhale you.
If you are talking about when one was further away than this range, then that's not the point. You could just shield all the waddle dees and not approach at all. Air dodging into someone is not safe as Ganon.

3. So you think Ganon can approach MK then? If your definition is just approaching from across the screen then maybe.

1. I KNOW what I'm talking about. I also find it humorous how you judge my ability by how I play on WIFI.

2. You must have ignored my earlier post. D3 can't punish SHADing through a Waddle Dee. He just has too much lag afterwards, and he's not mobile enough to get to wherever Ganondorf happens to land.

3. You failed to understand the message I was getting across to Doc King. Ganon can NOT approach everybody. I should have said "get close" instead of "approach," but I made clear what the context of the word "approach" in that sentence was.

4. Ganon gets by from punishing. A good Ganon player will get close enough to avoid any immediate retaliation (i.e. ftilt from D3) and punish whatever move he can. I perhaps wasn't clear, but anybody who tries to full out approach and go agro with Ganon isn't very good. I was sure that was understood.

You use don't use either expertly. This is obvious no matter how much lag or otherwise there is.

2. He doesn't have too much lag afterwords. He can just followup with another side B. But a good DDD won't be trying to keep Ganon back with Side Bs in the first place. At any rate DDD is definitively one of Ganon's worst MUs and snake for top tiers is one of his best. Snake's grenades are terrible for just keeping people out. They are not falco's lasers. Just because you have a ton of trouble with them doesn't mean they control the stage.


3. Ganon can't approach DDD or MK effectively. Even suggesting this is ubsurd.

4. Agreed. Because he can't approach effectively.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

But it's (as far as I remember) always only one guy really active at a time.

I could be wrong of course, but I can only remember ESAM placing well as of late.

 

[Xubble]

You use don't use either expertly. This is obvious no matter how much lag or otherwise there is.

2. He doesn't have too much lag afterwords. He can just followup with another side B. But a good DDD won't be trying to keep Ganon back with Side Bs in the first place. At any rate DDD is definitively one of Ganon's worst MUs and snake for top tiers is one of his best. Snake's grenades are terrible for just keeping people out. They are not falco's lasers.


3. Ganon can't approach DDD or MK effectively. Even suggesting this is ubsurd.

4. Agreed. Because he can't approach effectively.

1. You never heard of sandbagging?
I'm better than you give me credit for. MM me sometime.

2. Another Waddle Dee? Another SHAD. And throwing them like that was a point I was gonna get to. Snake has more than grenades to keep people out, you shouldn't rely on only nades EVER.

3. Ganon can get close for punishing, this is the point I just made. I'm not saying it's an approach at all, we went through this.

4. See above.

 

[zmx]

If you really think DDD is a better MU for ganon, play my Snake and DDD. My Snake is much better than my DDD so in theory if you are right, you will do better against my DDD.

 

[Sieguest]

If you really think DDD is a better MU for ganon, play my Snake and DDD. My Snake is much better than my DDD so in theory if you are right, you will do better against my DDD.

Was reading the thread... saw this post and literally almost choked on the airhead I munching on.

This makes absolutely no sense and won't prove a single thing.

 

[infiniteV115]

zmx, you've been to how many offline tournies? 1? I know you were at WD, but that only had 16 entrants.

Point is, I don't think you're in a position to imply that you're better than someone/imply that they're bad when you've been to so few offline tournies and only played them on Wifi. Not only is it laggy, but people aren't as motivated to play as they are in tournies because in (offline) tournies, you win money. In other words, sandbagging (intentional or unintentional)

Waddle Dee throw can easily be SHAD'd, Waddle Dee Toss (don't know what DDD's side-b is called) has plenty of ending lag. Watch Coney v NickRiddle, you'll see how often Nick punished Waddle Dee Toss with ZSS' sideb (which has quite a bit of startup lag).

And if DDD is tossing Waddle Dees at Ganon, that probably means that Ganon is pretty far away. Too far away to be within inhale range after a SHAD

WHY THE HELL ARE WE TALKING ABOUT GANON'S MUS IN THE TIER LIST THREAD. ****.

Btw, are you going to RoS?

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Because Good Ganons scare the S### out of everyone.

 

[da K.I.D.]

So what youre saying is that the best player of a character is always an outlier of the characters abilities no matter how many people have that title?

@niddo

 

[zmx]

zmx, you've been to how many offline tournies? 1? I know you were at WD, but that only had 16 entrants.

Point is, I don't think you're in a position to imply that you're better than someone/imply that they're bad when you've been to so few offline tournies and only played them on Wifi. Not only is it laggy, but people aren't as motivated to play as they are in tournies because in (offline) tournies, you win money. In other words, sandbagging (intentional or unintentional)

Waddle Dee throw can easily be SHAD'd, Waddle Dee Toss (don't know what DDD's side-b is called) has plenty of ending lag. Watch Coney v NickRiddle, you'll see how often Nick punished Waddle Dee Toss with ZSS' sideb (which has quite a bit of startup lag).

And if DDD is tossing Waddle Dees at Ganon, that probably means that Ganon is pretty far away. Too far away to be within inhale range after a SHAD

WHY THE HELL ARE WE TALKING ABOUT GANON'S MUS IN THE TIER LIST THREAD. ****.

Because ganon is awesome?

Sandbagging happens in tournys too. People get cocky and start playing bad. Or choose troll characters.

You obviously don't understand something. Technical stuff like SDs or dropping Chain grabs can be attributed to lag. I'm not talking about that. But stuff like using DDD's up B onto the stage for recovery or never using his utilt or using dash grabbing as an approach cannot possibly be excused because of lag. These are poor options not matter how you look at it. That's why I focused on knowing, not technical skill.

Waddle dees should almost never be used at mid range, we've already established that. Don't see why you are bringing that up. Also ZSS is like a 100X faster than ganon so of course she can punish better.

Edit:

I'd also like to add that if I'm consistently 2-stocking someone or if I"m getting consistently 2-3 stocked than x/y player is better/worse than me. No johns.

Oh and not all online matches are laggy. I've had some incredibly smooth ones.

 

[infiniteV115]

Just because sandbagging can happen in tourney (and it barely happens when the players are good), that doesn't mean it won't happen on Wifi. Furthermore, it's a hell of a lot more likely to happen on Wifi because there isn't really anything to lose on Wifi. Thus, judging someone's skill on Wifi isn't a good idea.
Thus, you shouldn't attempt to discredit somebody just because they're bad on Wifi. Even some top players are known for saying some pretty silly things.

Edit: Ok, new topic, this one is kinda silly. Predictions for Pikachu's placement on v7?

 

[zmx]

You didn't respond to what I said about option select.

And top players sandbag all the time. In fact they sandbag way more than anyone else because they can afford to sandbag.

 

[Sieguest]

Oh and not all online matches are laggy. I've had some incredibly smooth ones.

Just wanting to point something out, just because the match is smooth doesn't mean that some kind of alteration isn't present. I mean, the game itself automatically delays your input by six frames just as a buffer when playing online. That alone, while seeming trivial, changes the dynamics of the game. (The first thing that pops into my head is the starting desync not working for ICs).