Official BBR Tier List v5

[da K.I.D.]

I would assume the stagelist and time limit would only negatively affect them as well.

I still expect them to perform well in that setting though.

your telling me the oppurtunity to get every game on FD for numerous consecutive sets is bad for sonic? i mean, yea pictochat is better. but FD is still one of sonics best stages...

Then who is better than Australia?

everyone.

Can't really see japan raging with all the amazing Ic players they have

eff that character.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I hate discussions that start this way but I'm sort of curious about one that never (ever) gets any discussion: Sheik.

It seems everyone thinks Sheik is good. There are a few good players that play Sheik, none of them very well or at least, to any result. Sheik seems chronically misunderstood. What I know:

Sheik has a ton of very fast moves with low lag and weak KB, so they string very easily or even combo well.
Sheik has fast ground speed, good air speed (I guess).
Sheik has a very good jab, capable of similar things as Ike, Falcon, or Luigi.

But...

Sheik has trouble landing kills because her only kill moves are smashes. Dsmash seems to be stale a lot, fsmash doesn't work, and usmash has a very tiny hitbox. With that said, Sheik has less trouble than other characters with "killing problems" because of grab release set-ups and surprise DACUS. Dsmash kills eventually and is pretty easy to land, and uair is a pretty good "move that can kill" even though I wouldn't necessarily say it's a "kill move."

Sheik has a weight class that gives her a few ugly match-ups and situations, such as the ZSS dsmash lock, various chain-grabs, and even a CG to spike from Marth.

Sheik has booty recovery, perhaps among the worst in the game. Her tether has really poor range IMO, and her up+b is pretty un-threatening. I think this is her biggest issue. It is especially bad since her ledge game is pretty awful too. I think her recovery suite (that is, her double jump, up+b, tether, and ledge game) are so pitiful that Link's package is actually better in practice than Sheik's.

Am I wrong? Is there something I don't know? Let's talk about this character that gets like zero discussion!

 

[da K.I.D.]

TKD mains shiek now, id rather hold off on this discussion until i see tourney vids from him.

what i will say, is sheiks recovery isnt great but its far from worst in the game.

since you play zss, i can see how you might think that, since you have the odd adv of hanging from your tether low enough to avoid the explosion, so you can punish pretty much anything she does to recover.

 

[Spelt]

I think you're impression of sheik's tether might also be a little zss main bias, it's easy to think it sucks when your character can grab the ledge from Antarctica.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Maybe, but let's be honest: the only reason ZSS has functional recovery is because her tether distances are freaking stupid. Tethers are not good, so without crazy range they don't really function. =\

Plus only Olimar has a similar tether distance. Ivysaur and ZSS both have way longer tether distances. Even Link and Samus have tethers in addition to their normal recoveries that are longer. Toon Link's might be the same distance, not sure.

 

[Zack]

Awesome! :D

 

[deepseadiva]

Sheik has booty recovery, perhaps among the worst in the game.

It's funny, I always think back to Mar's* post about M2K saying Sheik had the best recovery since he couldn't gimp her.

WHICH HYPERBOLE DO I BELIEVE???

*Might not have been Mars. One of the two Shiek players.

 

[phi1ny3]

Sheik's completely glass cannon, so fragile, but in the right hands (TKD would be a great candidate, since he's used to playing a character with as light a weight + high susceptability to CGs/locks/juggles) can do some work.

imo Sheik thrives when she from the ability to outperform the other character in damage, I think she shares a similarity to Diddy in the sense that both have a really good overall moveset that's slightly offset/upset by lack of a strong/reliable killer that finishes below 140% on most opponents, although Diddy seems to obviously polish the opponent off better because of bananas. When you see a good sheik play though, it's apparent that killing isn't the biggest deal with sheik when the opponent is suffering from an initial 60% difference in percent. She also has fairly reliable setups to her later, but more reliable kill moves like dsmash and nair (via jab cancels and the like). Things like ftilt staling also can be really nasty, as staled ftilt -> usmash will kill really early, in fact (sweetspot usmash is one of the strongest vertical killers in Brawl)

That and sheik's edgeguard game is pretty nice, not MK ability, but pretty nifty against some higher tiers with average recoveries (Izaw v. Haze is a good example of how even Marth has to worry about a sheik offstage, although not entirely reliable to determine the entire MU based off of that).

I also think vanish as a kill move is a tad underrated. reading with this attack is sooooo basic, the trick is that when done oos, it looks almost exactly like a spotdodge, and most opponents try to punish it that way. Difference is, you want to punish vanish at the very beginning when it doesn't have invincible frames, as opposed to the end.

She also has high "anti-camp" ability with needles, not unlike Snake's grenades. They don't completely forgo approaching and reverse the status quo, but they can still do some damage to an opponent who thinks he can hard camp all the time. 18% is nothing to scoff at when getting nailed by these, which are also transcendent.

Problem is, she has lots of decent MUs, but then gets lol'd by some really weird MUs where her game all of a sudden becomes unsafe/unrewarding, like Kirby or Pikachu. Her offstage game is pretty bad, not unworkable, but definitely flawed, which doesn't help considering her fall speed and light weight make for a bad combination.

 

[Life]

So Sheik ~= Sonic? Only with a projectile and faster moveset instead of cancels, strong recovery, and ridiculous run speed?

 

[da K.I.D.]

basically, thats why theyre so close in the actual list.

 

[Browny]

if sheik is a glass cannon, that makes G&W a glass tsar bomba

 

[Orion*]

*Waiting on Orion's response*

to what

it's hilarious because their rules are better to begin with. we have ****ing...pictochat and brinstar legal, and we're trying to discredit their rules? really?

yeah I love japans rules XD

and as far as your facts go, the best player of theirs that came over here, lost to a lucario that is MAYBE the 3rd best lucario in america. at this point, most people say trela and june are better than him, and zucco would be too if he hadnt quit smash for SF. so i can infer just as much as you can.

Best lucario in maybe knowing the characters ins and outs? maybe

Lee Martin is definitely smarter than the rest though.

And Larry gets a ****LOAD of practice with Rich all the time, so he knows that matchup insanely well.

This

I think Japans olimars **** ours outside of RB though

Europe > USA because every US Guy that ever entered a european tournament didn't win


(now it's in the right thread hahaha..)

/has another chance next weekend

It's funny, I always think back to Mar's* post about M2K saying Sheik had the best recovery since he couldn't gimp her.

LOOOOL

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol @ rich brown.

how does olimar lose to samus? i dont understand how that can feasibly happen

 

[Chuee]

I heard noid planked him lol.

 

[Flayl]

Can't Olimar beat that by simply shielding ZAir and FSmash'ing?

 

[Chuee]

Thats not how Samus planks though.

 

[Flayl]

Olimar doesn't need to get in UAir range so I don't kow how else Samus would plank Olimar

Can you just tell me?

 

[Chuee]

Samus planks by drop down Up-b, every once in a while jump back and shoot missiles.

 

[Flayl]

Really? Do you have any vids for this? This sounds like it has huge holes in it.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

It does: it's samus

 

[Chuee]

Really? Do you have any vids for this? This sounds like it has huge holes in it.

idk all I know is that if Samus wanted to plank that's probably how she'd do it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

yo chuee you were talkin real big a second ago like you knew everything about samus, but now when you get grilled its like, 'oh i dont really know anything about the character bro, i was just guessing'

...
try not to do that in the future.

 

[Chuee]

yo chuee you were talkin real big a second ago like you knew everything about samus, but now when you get grilled its like, 'oh i dont really know anything about the character bro, i was just guessing'

...
try not to do that in the future.

I remembered seeing KJ plank like that that once but I couldn't find the exact vid.

 

[Malcolm.O]

Whobo 3 stream mad hype

xyro beats noid in a 50$ MM
(Recently)
&
Will beats richbrown and RB throws out a Verbal lashing.

On a more on topic note


I really can't see how its possible for an oli to lose to samus

 

[Spelt]

inb4 people start saying dk is high tier.

 

[Flayl]

I'm not "grilling" Chuee, I'm trying to figure out how an Olimar can lose to a Samus. Apparently the same way he loses to DK (not MK, G&W, Pit, Pikachu, R.O.B or even Marth). By getting ledge camped and not being able to figure out what to do.

 

[Chuee]

Apparently RB tried to stop Will from ledge camping but got gimped twice in the process.

 

[da K.I.D.]

that still doesnt answer the topic question.

How. the fk. does olimar. lose. to samus.?

 

[Dabuz]

zair

and more zair

then some missile walls followed by zair

then grab the edge...with zair

throw in some dair->zair combos

and some zair->dash attack->zair stuff

 

[da K.I.D.]

how does olimar even get hit by zair, hes effing tiny... it seems like she would have to be in the air, for dang near forever to get back low enough to the ground where a zair would hit him, at that point he could just run up to her and do... anything.

 

[Spelt]

samus2gooooooood obviously mid tier.
and olimar is crap.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

that still doesnt answer the topic question.

How. the fk. does olimar. lose. to samus.?

Overconfidence due to opponent's character + lack of character experience + lack of character knowledge + panic due to suddenly starting to lose to said character (possibly + no LGLs for none MK characters, don't know anything about how the matches went) + luck = 0:100 MU?

 

[Dabuz]

how does olimar even get hit by zair, hes effing tiny... it seems like she would have to be in the air, for dang near forever to get back low enough to the ground where a zair would hit him, at that point he could just run up to her and do... anything.

the priority on her attacks actually makes her somewhat safe if olimar does that, the main thing is, if olimar gets into the air or samus gets on the edge, she can start hitting with zair and keep following up. Also, her missiles force reactions which can open her up to grab or zair depending on oli's reaction. Its still a HORRIBLE MU for samus, but these are the few tools she kinda has

 

[LanceStern]

Samus beats Olimar with zair, missiles and grabbing. Zair EVERYWHERE, you play with no shame.

 

[Life]

Will also twostocked ADHD on Battlefield (though ADHD pulled it together afterwards).

 

[Chuee]

Will also twostocked ADHD on Battlefield (though ADHD pulled it together afterwards).

and if I recall correctly, the third match almost went to time.

 

[Ussi]

Mr. Doom got 17th place. Looks like san ain't the only Ike who can be a threat at nationals

 

[adumbrodeus]

and if I recall correctly, the third match almost went to time.

Will is my hero.

 

[fkacyan]

Mr. Doom got 17th place. Looks like san ain't the only Ike who can be a threat at nationals

When did we start living in a world where your placement matters more than who you actually beat?

 

[san.]

Um, when did he say that? I'm pretty sure he'll tell you when he actually gets that information.