Official BBR Tier List v5

[Raziek]

why is marth better than pikachu then? all we have is possibly corrupt matchup opinions.

*facedesk*

Officially done with Steam. If you want a solely results centric tier list, there's another topic stickied in this forum you should take a look at.

 

[Conviction]

Well let's see....because Marth's MUs have been fairly consistent the WHOLE LIFESPAN of Brawl. Lol

Also I say, let's move sonic above Pika because of his number of mains placing in tournies and MUs cant be trusted so any "bad" MU doesn't exist.

 

[Tagxy]

Okay so Pikachu does not have any matchups that he wants to avoid, and has no matchups that are obviously in his favor?

Right.

Trust me when I say I know pikachus easy and difficult MUs. However as you just stated about extremes, pikachus worst MUs are worse than marths and his best MUs are better than marths. You seem confident in your opinion of this, so I just want your opinion on what these MUs are and why/how confident you feel you are correct. Anyone else who agrees with this opinion feel free to chime in.

Also Im no trying to trap you. I dont expect everyone to know everything about the game.

 

[Chuee]

I think Sonic's MUs are corrupt and that he is actually better than MK.

 

[Spelt]

meta knight's MU's are obviously corrupt.
move him down to B tier because with his insane number of mains he should really be placing much higher.

 

[Steam]

Marth keeps losing them?
Mike beats most MKs he fights, only loses I can recall are Tyrant, Lee, and M2K.
He loses to Diddy, but Diddy isn't one of his better MUs.
D3? Kadaj beat Atomsk's D3 1 game.
Mike usually only loses in MUs he isn't that good in (Pika, ZSS, Sonic, Peach, etc). In the MUs he knows he usually has a good record against top players with those characters.
tl;dr Mike knows 4 MUs.

Mike is the best marth, he loses to the best MKs. makes sense.

everything else is just a bunch of johns.

@SL- if sonic starts to place more often I will wholeheartedly agree. he hasn't shown the consistancy to be Btier yet though. Middle of Ctier is where he belongs IMO

@xblis- just because his matchups haven't changed doesn't mean they're still right. the metagame does change and marth is still a linear character. those tend to get worse as the metagame progresses.

@chuee- sonic's results don't compare to MKs. don't be silly. I'm just saying you can't trust the matchups.

@raziek- because you can't give me a real reason lol

 

[BSP]

Sonic's the best character in this game

Spoiler

if smashballs are legal

Serious though, he isn't that bad

 

[Raziek]

@Tag:

Pikachu faces a -2 with Olimar and Lucario. Marth has no official -2's and a debatable -2 with MK.

Pikachu has a +3 on all the spacies, and a +4 on Captain Falcon. Marth has no +4's and his +3's are on irrelevant low tiers.

That seemed pretty obvious to me.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Trust me when I say I know pikachus easy and difficult MUs. However as you just stated about extremes pikachus worst MUs are worse than marths and his best MUs are better than marths. You seem confident in your opinion of this, so I just want your opinion on what these MUs are. Anyone else who agrees with this opinion feel free to chime in.

*points to the above posters that just mentioned every single one of them*
=\
I dislike being repetitive.

 

[Conviction]

Chiming in with SL (which is something I never do)

One more thing, how can we "trust you" when you aren't a pika main, if you do go to tournies how do you usually even place? I don't expect to people auto-believe me when I say Fox's MU are something.

ALSO MUS ARE CORRUPT NONE CAN BE TRUSTED.

@your edit: Did Marth lose his sword? His range plays a big factor in almost ALL his MUs

 

[Raziek]

Congratulations, Steam, you're officially meme status for that ridiculous comment.

*bro-fist*

 

[Steam]

@raziek- pikachu might only be a -1 with lucario. but that doesn't matter that much since that matchup rarely happens. ESAM is 1-1 with lee's lucario

@xblis- things like that mean a lot less now than they did then. See: GW bair. it's marth's best trait but it's much less overpowering. just like how sonic can be succesful late in the metagame with no range or killpower. Sonic is the opposite of linear

 

[Flayl]

*points to the above posters that just mentioned every single one of them*
=\
I dislike being repetitive.

Please don't do this to yourself.

 

[BSP]

Chiming in with SL (which is something I never do)

One more thing, how can we "trust you" when you aren't a pika main, if you do go to tournies how do you usually even place? I don't expect to people auto-believe me when I say Fox's MU are something.

ALSO MUS ARE CORRUPT NO CAN BE TRUSTED.

Just saying

We can't see who said what, who participated, or what was said at all in the BBR's matchup discussion
BBR doesn't contain each character's best rep, or they don't participate

I could see why people could be distrustful

 

[ShadowLink84]

@raziek- pikachu might only be a -1 with lucario. but that doesn't matter that much since that matchup rarely happens. ESAM is 1-1 with lee's lucario

That is like saying the Sonic vs Lucario matchup does not matter becuase it rarely happens.
That logic could be applied to any MU outside of MK because of secondary characters being used in tournament.

The fact it exists is very much relevant. Same for his matchups with other characters such as Olimar.

 

[Chuee]

Mike is the best marth, he loses to the best MKs. makes sense.

He goes near even with those MKs. Tyrant he just beat yesterday, Lee he lost to 3-2, and M2K is just M2K. Hes also beaten Anti 2-0.

everything else is just a bunch of johns.

Definitely johns when he loses to the same Peach Nike beat. I thought it was common knowledge that WC doesn't know a lot of mid tier MUs.

@raziek- because you can't give me a real reason lol

He's given PLENTY of reasons....................

 

[Raziek]

In most cases, even lacking the best players of a character, those players were consulted for their opinions. The MU chart wasn't pulled COMPLETELY out of ze butt.

 

[Steam]

Congratulations, Steam, you're officially meme status for that ridiculous comment.

*bro-fist*

so you resort to trolling. good job

edit: all he's given are the matchups which can't be trusted lmao. and if they can then Pikachu's even matchup with the best character in the game should mean a loooooot.

 

[Raziek]

I've given you a ton of reasons, and you say

"Baww matchups can't be trusted." and...

you know what? No. I'm done with you.

 

[Spelt]

 

[Chuee]

@raziek- pikachu might only be a -1 with lucario. but that doesn't matter that much since that matchup rarely happens. ESAM is 1-1 with lee's lucario

Yeah, he beat Lee's Lucario 1 game when Lee was really sick.

@xblis- things like that mean a lot less now than they did then. See: GW bair. it's marth's best trait but it's much less overpowering. just like how sonic can be succesful late in the metagame with no range or killpower. Sonic is the opposite of linear

You...................compared Marth's fair to G&W's bair..................................

 

[Steam]

I've given you a ton of reasons, and you say

"Baww matchups can't be trusted." and...

you know what? No. I'm done with you.

they really can't. they're all words and opinions of people. and when there was a dispute it was decided by a panel of 5 that probably didn't know anything about the matchup and was possibly biased. not to mention you gave reasons why you think ESAM and the MKs did things wrong. who's to say there weren't other things wrong with it?

@chuee- more johns.

also It's a fair comparison. they both were able to do very well early on because they boasted good range/hitboxes. Marth's fair isn't nearly as good as it used to be. :/

 

[Tagxy]

@Tag:

Pikachu faces a -2 with Olimar and Lucario. Marth has no official -2's and a debatable -2 with MK.

Pikachu has a +3 on all the spacies, and a +4 on Captain Falcon. Marth has no +4's and his +3's are on irrelevant low tiers.

That seemed pretty obvious to me.

Ok so this is my important question.

Do we follow the MU chart? Or do you feel up to arguing incorrect ratios? For instance you seem to not agree with pikachus +0 vs metaknight, however I dont believe olimar vs pikachu is as bad as diddy vs marth. I just want to be on the same page.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ok so this is my important question.

Do we follow the MU chart? Or do you feel up to arguing incorrect ratios?

Are you implying that your opinions on the MU re naturally correct?
Just questioning.

 

[Steam]

Are you implying that your opinions on the MU re naturally correct?
Just questioning.

reading the rest of his post helps

 

[Chuee]

also It's a fair comparison. they both were able to do very well early on because they boasted good range/hitboxes. Marth's fair isn't nearly as good as it used to be. :/

I'm done.
I can't believe you have yet to realize the OBVIOUS difference between the two moves and it was the VERY REASON why people stopped talking about his Bair being so good. You cannot be helped ;_;

 

[Conviction]

Do you play this game???

How does GnW's bair compare to any of marth's aerials?


Stop right there. You are making everyone that doesn't agree with you stupider with every response they give you.

Lol, I can see this about to go around in circles.

/jumps on leaving bandwagon.

 

[ShadowLink84]

reading the rest of his post helps

Assumptions make you look even more foolish than you already seem.

 

[Conviction]

Assumptions make you look even more foolish than you already seemare.

/Bobthebuilder

 

[Tagxy]

Are you implying that your opinions on the MU re naturally correct?
Just questioning.

Im implying that Im fairly knowledgable about pikachu and his MUs, but we also have a convenient MU chart where everyone can have information about pikachu. However supposedly people do no agree with some of pikachus and others MUs on that chart, and if yall wish we can reargue some of the MUs. But that would also be annoying. Mostly Im just looking for consensus on how to deal with MUs since people are both using the MU chart for reference and openly disagreeing with it.

 

[Steam]

I'm done.
I can't believe you have yet to realize the OBVIOUS difference between the two moves and it was the VERY REASON why people stopped talking about his Bair being so good. You cannot be helped ;_;

I know the obvious differences. I'm not comparing them that directly. they're both moves that dominated early on due to having a good hitbox/range. Although the ways around GW bair are much more obvious and easy people have figured out how to get around marth's fair so that it's not as powerful as it used to be. Marth isn't as good as a whole because he doesn't have as many options to keep opponents guessing.

 

[Orion*]

Trust me when I say I know pikachus easy and difficult MUs. However as you just stated about extremes, pikachus worst MUs are worse than marths and his best MUs are better than marths. You seem confident in your opinion of this, so I just want your opinion on what these MUs are and why/how confident you feel you are correct. Anyone else who agrees with this opinion feel free to chime in.

Also Im no trying to trap you. I dont expect everyone to know everything about the game.

Youre right marth doesnt have have as reliable a zero to death as pika on some random characters... but he wins all of those mus anyway so I don't see how it matters.

I would rather win most of the time, than win some of the time if that makes sense.

 

[Spelt]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 30 (16 members and 14 guests)

 

[Conviction]

-______- wut? Marth's Fair does a hella lot more than GnWs Bair did then and now.


Some one make it stoooooooooooooooop. TT.TT

 

[z00ted]

Definitely johns when he loses to the same Peach Nike beat. I thought it was common knowledge that WC doesn't know a lot of mid tier MUs.

LOL are you serious?

You're seriously going to say that ESAM's loss against me was illegitimate because I lose to Nike?

For your information, Marth is my absolute WORST matchup. He completely counters my entire playstyle and Nike just so happens to have a insane amount of Peach experience.

ESAM got *****, so no johns. I've also ***** the **** out of K Prime multiple times (who has tons of Peach experience).

 

[Steam]

-______- wut? Marth's Fair does a hella lot more than GnWs Bair did then and now.


Some one make it stoooooooooooooooop. TT.TT

I'm aware of this.

The point is it's not as strong as it used to be. jesus stop trying to strawman me.

 

[Chuee]

I know the obvious differences. I'm not comparing them that directly. they're both moves that dominated early on due to having a good hitbox/range. Although the ways around GW bair are much more obvious and easy people have figured out how to get around marth's fair so that it's not as powerful as it used to be. Marth isn't as good as a whole because he doesn't have as many options to keep opponents guessing.

.........
Why does it matter when all the options he does have are ridiculously good.

 

[Chuee]

LOL are you serious?

You're seriously going to say that ESAM's loss against me was illegitimate because I lose to Nike?

For your information, Marth is my absolute WORST matchup. He completely counters my entire playstyle and Nike just so happens to have a insane amount of Peach experience.

ESAM got *****, so no johns. I've also ***** the **** out of K Prime multiple times (who has tons of Peach experience).

I wasn't referring to that.
I was referring to Mike losing to Raz.

 

[Conviction]

O.o start making sense then son.

Please tell and/or show how the power of Fair has dropped like GnW's Bair.

 

[Steam]

.........
Why does it matter when all the options he does have are ridiculously good.

that's an exageration. but marth not having many options makes it easier for him to get predicted or read. D3 is simliar in that regard. D3 has amazing options but not very many of them. He's not as high as he used to be. GW is similar, he's fallen as well. Same with RoB and Kirby. those few good options are more good/reliable early on when people don't know how to deal with them as well. Later on it becomes important to remain unpredictable as people learn how to deal with things, as seen with sonic's improvement.

@xblis- People are much better as PSing things, and are just better players than before. they can read predictable things/individual moves better and punish accordingly. the move itself isn't any worse but the fact marth doesn't have many options does hurt him.