Official BBR Tier List v5

[Delta-cod]

There's a reason why we don't ONLY use results, lol.

 

[Spelt]

uhhhh

ESAM took 3rd at MLG dallas, Mikehaze took 9th
ESAM took 4th and Pound V, Mikehaze didn't attend
Esam took 8th at MLG columbus, Mikehaze took 25th
Esam took 4th at MLG DC, Mikehaze took 6th
Esam took 9th at MLG raleigh, Mikehaze took 25th

also keep in mind a lot of ESAM's money won from this isn't accounted for in Ripple/john#'s data. where Pikachu is still doing better when you consider the ammount of usage (marth has 3.2 % of money as opposed to pikachu's 2.2% but marth has more than twice as much usage). if you added in ESAM's 5000 dollars from MLG dallas... yeah.

Yeah, that's because minus pound 5 they all took place almost a year ago.
How about some more recent data.

 

[Chuee]

@chuee- show me the results. where has he been even close to the national threat pikachu has except for one occaision? (and pika still outplaced him)

I already told you this.
It's not all about results.
It's moreso about who you beat and lose to.

 

[Spelt]

Nah chuee.
Results are all that matter in this thread.























































Until results don't agree with their opinion.

 

[Steam]

I already told you this.
It's not all about results.
It's moreso about who you beat and lose to.

ugh really don't want to have to sift through all that... **** it. tagxy, you know who esam beat?

@spelt. all of those are less than a year old. I think all of them happened since the last tier list except columbus. they still matter. Pound V was recent lol

 

[Spelt]

@spelt. all of those are less than a year old. I think all of them happened since the last tier list except columbus. they still matter. Pound V was recent lol

And coincidentally the most recent one is the one where mikehaze didn't even attend.
lol.

 

[Steam]

And coincidentally the most recent one is the one where mikehaze didn't even attend.
lol.

so we go with what we have

at pound Esam beat Pierce, Malcom, Ally, and Razor

losing to anti and ally

I really don't want to look through all the others lol

 

[Tagxy]

Steam you can look at any single national. Basically if you placed top 8 at a national youve beaten 2 or 3 national threats along the way. Malcom, UR, ally, mike, tyrant, etc etc etc.

Im not even sure why anyone is trying to put down or compare pikachus national success with anyone that isnt top 4 or olimar. No one else is close.

Nah chuee.
Results are all that matter in this thread.
...

Yeah, that's because minus pound 5 they all took place almost a year ago.
How about some more recent data.

 

[Sinister Slush]

No money was given at Pound V, It was basically One huge National Smashfest and shouldn't count.

/sarcasm

 

[Raziek]

because ESAM is actually a national threat.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I don't understand why people have to think you can only win if your using a better character.

By that logic DEHF would never have won apex and only metaknights would win tournaments

 

[Tagxy]

Steam Im pretty sure spelt is either trolling or painfully ignorant. You should just ignore him.

 

[Chuee]

so we go with what we have

at pound Esam beat Pierce, Malcom, Ally, and Razor

losing to anti and ally

I really don't want to look through all the others lol

At columbus he lost to Nick (not sure) and Lee Martin
Raleigh he lost to idk
DC he lost to idk
Dallas he lost to Gnes and Tyrant

 

[Steam]

Fixed that for you.

can't really say that about any marth user. at least not to even close to the same degree

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't understand why people have to think you can only win if your using a better character.

By that logic DEHF would never have won apex and only metaknights would win tournaments

In this thread you're dealing with a bunch of people out of which about 75% probably don't even know what a tourney looks like.

 

[Steam]

In this thread you're dealing with a bunch of people out of which about 75% probably don't even know what a tourney looks like.

when you have the best of each character how can you really tell?

 

[Raziek]

can't really say that about any marth user. at least not to even close to the same degree

No, you can't. I didn't say you could. Just saying, Pikachu isn't a national threat. ESAM is.

Nobody goes to a tournament thinking "GOD I HOPE I DON'T RUN INTO A PIKACHU".

Unless they main a spacey.

 

[Chuee]

can't really say that about any marth user. at least not to even close to the same degree

Mike is a tourney threat.
Just not as much as ESAM
hint: It's because ESAM is better.
derp

 

[Steam]

No, you can't. I didn't say you could. Just saying, Pikachu isn't a national threat. ESAM is.

Nobody goes to a tournament thinking "GOD I HOPE I DON'T RUN INTO A PIKACHU".

Unless they main a spacey.

then marth isn't a national threat either. he only has one player that's even remotely close to a threat.

@chuee- how do you know? why can't pikachu be a better character?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nobody goes to a tournament thinking "GOD I HOPE I DON'T RUN INTO A PIKACHU".

Unless they main a spacey.

In the same hand I can't think of more characters that fear Marth the same way.

 

[Steam]

In the same hand I can't think of more characters that fear Marth the same way.

because all marth mains are bad. it's why they never place.

 

[Meru.]

Steam Im pretty sure spelt is either trolling or painfully ignorant. You should just ignore him.

I don't see how he's the ignorant one. People keep saying to stop looking at only results, but I don't see that being taken into consideration. It's not easy to argue with someone who has completely different measures.

 

[Raziek]

Gheb, Steam, you're both putting words in my mouth.

I didn't say Marth was a national threat. Neither Pikachu nor Marth is a national threat, because if you remove their top player, the character has virtually nothing.

Also, PK kids fear Marth. They're not as important as Fox/Falco/Wolf, though, so I'll concede that point.

 

[Chuee]

then marth isn't a national threat either. he only has one player that's even remotely close to a threat.

That sounds hilariously familiar.

@chuee- how do you know? why can't pikachu be a better character?

because Marth's MU's are better.
Marth has like.......3 MUs he loses, all only slight while Pika loses to like MK, Marth, Oli, Lucario, Diddy........

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not correct. What MUs are you thinking of?

Okay so Pikachu does not have any matchups that he wants to avoid, and has no matchups that are obviously in his favor?

Right.

 

[Steam]

I don't see how he's the ignorant one. People keep saying to stop looking at only results, but I don't see that being taken into consideration. It's not easy to argue with someone who has completely different measures.

we have concrete factual results. and matchups that are a result of opinions. hmmmm

@raziek- I'm justifying pikachu being above marth on the tier list lol

@chuee- matchups are all opinions. if marth keeps in losing them they must not be that good for him. also pikachu goes even with MK according to official ratios. and on the matchup chart just above every single disputed ratio mysteriously fell in favor of marth >.> lol. there are so many reasons we can't trust matchups.

 

[Raziek]

we have concrete factual results. and matchups that are a result of opinions. hmmmm

@raziek- I'm justifying pikachu being above marth on the tier list lol

So let's see here. Neither character is a national threat, because they have very little representation outside of an outlier player.

And Marth has better matchups.

Where exactly does "Pikachu > Marth" come in here?

If you mention ESAM, I'm going to laugh at you. Since we just went over that one player's results cannot accurate depict the potential and actual quality of the character. Skill is too directly attached, when only one player is considered.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't understand why people have to think you can only win if your using a better character.

By that logic DEHF would never have won apex and only metaknights would win tournaments

I think it is a failed attempt at saying, using a better character makes it easier to win the tournament, as opposed to using a worse character to try and win.

 

[Raziek]

@Steam's edit:

ESAM was clamoring for the best matchup possible with EVERY character, and the MK's sandbagged half their matchups to look less broken. Many of MK's +1's should be +2's.

 

[Conviction]

I saw this thread moving at a fast pace after the tier list thing. I expected a Fox vs. Wolf argument. Glad for one time it isn't.

Also stop the madness. Marth>Pika. It's not a huge gap though. I could see Pika 1-2 spot behind marth in the same tier. That "Result mean everything until it disagrees with their opinion" statement was so truthful.

Stop looking at results for one second and compare character traits.

 

[Raziek]

Agreeing with Iblis on this one.

And Steam, for someone who doesn't seem to trust matchups, I seem to remember you trying to argue that Lucario had a better MK matchup than someone else. I forget who it was, but I like the double standard.

Edit: I think it was during the Pit debacle.

 

[Steam]

So let's see here. Neither character is a national threat, because they have very little representation outside of an outlier player.

And Marth has better matchups.

Where exactly does "Pikachu > Marth" come in here?

If you mention ESAM, I'm going to laugh at you. Since we just went over that one player's results cannot accurate depict the potential and actual quality of the character. Skill is too directly attached, when only one player is considered.

I never agreed to that lol. if we take away DEHF... falco.... really doesn't show up at all.

Marth's best player has broken top 8 once in like the last year. Pika's best does it almost every time.

@raziek- maybe ESAM was on to something? maybe pikachu's matchups ARE that good? and I'm fully aware of MK sandbagging their matchups. It's all part of my point of why they can't be trusted.

 

[Alphicans]

Match-ups are a lot about opinion, but there are definitely objective reasoning behind them. Match-ups aren't 100% subjective :/.

Results also don't fully represent who is better, and which character is better. Luck in the form of brackets is a factor. Pika might avoid all the lucarios and olis in bracket, or he might vs people who have never played pikachu before.

Both have their flaws, so to say one is a better criteria is ridiculous.

 

[Orion*]

Mmm, there's also that. Marth has no real hard disadvantages besides MK. Minor loss to Diddy and Dedede.

Certainly one of the cast's safer match-up spreads. Marth doesn't have to worry about pocket counters.

This.

If marth had something even close to the potential of worst that a soft counter I would've CPed it long ago

 

[Raziek]

I never agreed to that lol. if we take away DEHF... falco.... really doesn't show up at all.

Marth's best player has broken top 8 once in like the last year. Pika's best does it almost every time.

Hey, that's why we consider more than just results with Falco's rank, right?

We consider both matchups and results. ESAM is a better player than Mike. That doesn't make Pikachu better than Marth.

 

[Tagxy]

I don't see how he's the ignorant one. People keep saying to stop looking at only results, but I don't see that being taken into consideration. It's not easy to argue with someone who has completely different measures.

Thats not what I meant. Im perfectly fine with not relying solely on results, and I understand one player might be better than another. Most of my time has been arguing against those trying to downplay or compare pikachus results with those who arent top 4 or olimar.

But lets take a look at what spelts statements

>spelt says pikachu and marths results are similar
>steam produces pikachus better results
>spelt unsuccessfully argues they look about the same...
>spelt tries to argue the results are too old...as if nationals happen every 2 months
>steam points out pound, and spelt shoots it down because mike wasnt there
>spelt implies that if you place at a national you havent beaten some of the nations best players
>spelt states the results dont support steams argument.

 

[Steam]

Hey, that's why we consider more than just results with Falco's rank, right?

We consider both matchups and results. ESAM is a better player than Mike. That doesn't make Pikachu better than Marth.

why is marth better than pikachu then? all we have is possibly corrupt matchup opinions.

 

[Chuee]

@chuee- matchups are all opinions. if marth keeps in losing them they must not be that good for him. also pikachu goes even with MK according to official ratios. and on the matchup chart just above every single disputed ratio mysteriously fell in favor of marth >.> lol. there are so many reasons we can't trust matchups.

Marth keeps losing them?
Mike beats most MKs he fights, only loses I can recall are Tyrant, Lee, and M2K.
He loses to Diddy, but Diddy isn't one of his better MUs.
D3? Kadaj beat Atomsk's D3 1 game.
Mike usually only loses in MUs he isn't that good in (Pika, ZSS, Sonic, Peach, etc). In the MUs he knows he usually has a good record against top players with those characters.
tl;dr Mike knows 4 MUs.

 

[ShadowLink84]

why is marth better than pikachu then? all we have is possibly corrupt matchup opinions.

K, then I would like to state that Sonic should be high tier.

 

[Spelt]

LOL are you serious?
Steam was arguing about results, I presented a counterargument ... about results because that's what the current topic was about.
If you want to argue about potential or MUs i'd be happy to do that too!
Herp Derp.

And i'm the one that's ignorant.