Official BBR Tier List v5

[da K.I.D.]

well seagull isnt PRd anywhere so I dont know where that boy is from.

hell, he might be in upstate new york somewhere...traveling to tristate tourneys under another name lol.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

And not really placing as well as TKD or Trevonte or Nakat?

Kain > all but maybe TKD.

And who cares, placement is not everything in terms of how good a character is.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Kain > all but maybe TKD.

And who cares, placement is not everything in terms of how good a character is.

Uh, I'm talking about the Wolves in those regions. You know, the ones other than Kain that you were talking about (I'm assuming you meant Choice, AC, etc.).

 

[da K.I.D.]

why the hell not?

consistent placings in good regions is the first and most important factor when a character is trying to move up the tier list.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

why the hell not?

consistent placings in good regions is the first and most important factor when a character is trying to move up the tier list.

I guess Marth and Wario are D tier now right?

Oh and Sonic/Fox are A tier can't forget that.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

why the hell not?

consistent placings in good regions is the first and most important factor when a character is trying to move up the tier list.

This is how things should be considered, roughly:

1. Placings over a mid-length period of time (not a year, but not one tourney either lol)
2. Who players beat and what characters they played, to obtain those placings (region, too). This doesn't always change things very much. It might mean the player got lucky and didn't face any MK/Falco/Pikachu players or it might just mean the character's hard counter isn't good enough/common enough to matter.
3. How strong the character is as a tournament presence. For instance, on the west coast, at a big tournament, it is reasonable to assume a Fox will obtain a good placing if one of the good Fox players attend. For a character to be high tier, you almost have to be able to say this.
4. Hard counters by other good characters. This is a pretty low consideration, because if they're managing to beat these characters despite the "ratio," or just aren't fighting many of those characters, there's something else at work. Maybe the match-up isn't as bad as you think (ZSS/Falco), or maybe the character isn't as good as we think it is (Will places pretty frequently in NY/NJ because Dedede kind of sucks, but yeah also because the infinites are banned, but even if they weren't, Dedede isn't a very strong tournament presence here).
5. "Tools." This is a very abstract and superficial judgement, and while a consideration, is a pretty low-level consideration. Some things are easy to punish on paper and hard to punish in reality. There are other things, too, like SDI, which while important, is thrown around on the boards a lot as an answer to everything. When people start SDI-ing Fox's dair or his fair every time or whatever, I'll agree we should start talking about it, but there's a reason they aren't and it isn't incompetence or laziness.

I think we should prioritize the real world over what is said on the boards.

 

['V']

Marth needs to drop. He's just too average to be that good in this game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Placement are just like results when doing a scientific experiment, they are something to be interpreted to reach a conclusion. Think of it like logic as well.

When your looking at result they are something look at and ask some questions like, it looks like in this region Falco seems to be doing a lot better than in other regions, why is that? From here you look at the results and try and figure out why this is.

Let's say DEHF for example, we look at his results and ask why he is doing so well, is it player, character, not running into bad match-ups? He goes to nationals and still places well, why is this?

Conclusion, Falco is good and DEHF is an amazing player.

But then there are some odd situations with bad match-ups and such, take Espy vs DEHF, first game DEHF won, Espy wins game 2, Espy almost 3 stocks him game 3. So do we take this as Sonic being a counter for Falco or is Espy so good he knows how to handle Falco? Does DEHF know the match-up?

You have to ask questions like this because results don't always show that something clearly. Nick Riddle beats DEHF first time they play, does that mean ZSS is even? If we don't say such why do we say it's a bad match-up if Riddle can beat all of these people in FL who try to CP Falco on him? How does skill level pair up?

Gluttony beats Leon in Europe, does that mean Wario vs Marth isn't in Marth's favor?

You have to realize that at some point you need to look at it on paper, because it's not going to be obvious in practice and a lot of things can really screw up or happen in game that can make results not happen like people say.

When on paper there are issue since finding two equally level skilled players is very rare, characters have amazing talent around is very rare sometimes or not distributed evenly.

Results don't always speak for match-up or how good a character is, more so if they can or not. Even if TKD outplaces people in his region, I'm never going to say fox is better than G&W, Lucario, ZSS, or other high tiers as a character unless I see a really really good reason why.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Agreed with Reflex.

I really don't think Samus is better than Link.

Samus's zair is longer and her spike makes up for her lack of ability to kill Link. She also is better then Bowser. He can't get in on that wall of spam and zairs.

Tierlist time! (numbers in brackets show the difference to the current tierlist)


TOP
S: (0)(+1)(-1)(0)

HIGH
A: (+3)(-1)(-1)(+1)(-2)(0)

MIDDLE
B: (+1)(+1)(+3) (0)(+3)(-1)(0)(+2)(+3)(-1)(+3)
C: (+1)(+2)(-13)(-4)(0)(0)(0)(0)

LOW
D: (0)(0)(0)
E: (+1)(+2)(+2)(-3)(-2)
Ganon: (0)

That's how I see it atm. Still unsure about some placings though... (mostly the order of the mid tier characters)

Pit is going up? What has he done?

You guys stay on this secondary kick like it's a damning quality to being the best (__________) main. "You can be the best Team Rocket, but god forbid you use another character for that godawful Pikachu match-up. It might kill your credibility." Get off TKD's nads, he uses MK for the ****ty Brinstar/MK combo and to deal with Pikachu and ICs. Maybe in the future, he'll holla at NAKAT and NAKAT can give him a few lessons in Brinstar Fox 101.

/rant

And I use Mk on Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, and Norfair too. I also use him to deal with bad matchups like D3 and Pikachu (I go Wolf on every other character).

seagull doesnt live in a booty region but he is booty IN his region.

Same thing effectively.

well seagull isnt PRd anywhere so I dont know where that boy is from.

hell, he might be in upstate new york somewhere...traveling to tristate tourneys under another name lol.

I'm from Maryland. I barely attend tourneys within ranking periods. I'm an honorable mention at the moment because last season I got 3rd at an out of state local in Nc, 5th at a local in Md, and 7th in Md. I also attended 3 Mid tier tourneys in which I took 2nd (Took Chu to 2nd set, but lost ), 3rd (Lost to Boss and Chu), and 4th (That big tourney that M2k finally beat Adhd in Md/Va).

It's not my fault I can never attend enough in 3 months time. I try, but I work weekends so it's pretty rare for me to have off during school times since I don't work durin school days and work weekends. It's hard to be ranked when you can never attend enough events .

Being PR'd does not equate to skill.

I had Link and Samus switched at first, but tbh I think Samus can be better against the higher tiers... even if she still does bad, but at least she can recover. :\ And Xyro does okay with her, I never see any results or anything about Link lately though...

And what Reflex said.

No-idea took Logic to third game last tourney with Samus .

Ok, tell me when a Wolf has beat a good Pika or Wario (inb4KainbeatingHunger) that used the CG.

The only Wario's I know in the entire Ec that can Cg is Malcolm and he won't do it outta pride. I'm MM'in him at pound 5 though for like a dollar where he uses it because it was the only way to convince him to do it since I want a real Wario vs Wolf matchup and not one where the Wario can't cg.

Did he use it to 100%?

It goes from exactly 59% to 200% on Wolf specifically. At close to or at 200% the Wario should just fthrow.

Yeah I'll sign this post. Watching good Fox players, it's an amazing showcase. It isn't just some really good player winning with a meh character, it's "wow, that looks annoying" and "wow, fox can punish that?" etc. Fox is everywhere, he has so many options, his moves are constantly fresh, he's fast, he kills so early. He's a top tier character with a deadly disease. =/

And not really placing as well as TKD or Trevonte or Nakat?

theres wolf mains in tristate?

they must be effing awful, cus ive never even heard of a wolf main in that area.

Ishieymoro and Pane are from tristate. Pane is LI and Ishieymoro is Atomsk's neighbor. Ishiey has beaten Doom and Chibo lolololol.

Pane is the only one. You know, that up-and-coming Wolf main who just won a tourney?

Auspher, please keep posting because I haven't laughed this hard in a long time.

(<3 Pane)

Edit: Maybe Seagull is from this region, I don't know?

No....I'm from Md/Va. Read my damn location LOL. Tristate does NOT include Md/Va or NE.

Uh, I'm talking about the Wolves in those regions. You know, the ones other than Kain that you were talking about (I'm assuming you meant Choice, AC, etc.).

Choice- NorCal
Ac- Tijuana/SoCal
Kain- Illinois
Me- Md/Va
Holms- Kansas

I through Holms in there since he has good placings too, but never really posts.

why the hell not?

consistent placings in good regions is the first and most important factor when a character is trying to move up the tier list.

I consistently get 5th like every tourney in Md/Va. I regularly beat at least one PR member everytime.

 

[ShadowLink84]

^^ another insightful post by another insightful BRoomer.

SL84, umad or smthg?

No, im jellying bro.
>=D

Plus K.I.D. owes me money and has yet to pay =(

 

[_Kain_]

So when Seagull goes MK to counter Wolf's bad MU's it means Wolf sucks. But when TKD goes MK against his bad MU's it doesn't mean Fox is bad I wonder why? You people who post in here sometimes I question your intelligence. It's like you accept only what you want to accept.

 

[Juushichi]

Gull and Kain going in.

 

[John12346]

All of the arguments I've seen in this thread, no matter how convoluted

Always seems to have MK as a core problem

ragemode

 

[ShadowLink84]

So when Seagull goes MK to counter Wolf's bad MU's it means Wolf sucks. But when TKD goes MK against his bad MU's it doesn't mean Fox is bad I wonder why? You people who post in here sometimes I question your intelligence. It's like you accept only what you want to accept.

*co-signs this post*

<_<
>_>


SONIC IS DA BESS!

*flees*

 

[Seagull Joe]

So when Seagull goes MK to counter Wolf's bad MU's it means Wolf sucks. But when TKD goes MK against his bad MU's it doesn't mean Fox is bad I wonder why? You people who post in here sometimes I question your intelligence. It's like you accept only what you want to accept.

And I still go Wolf vs Mk/Sheik/Wario and Falco.

*co-signs this post*

<_<
>_>


SONIC IS DA BESS!

*flees*

SS tier=Super Sonic tier. Put him above Mk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[_Kain_]

That and the fact that people want to see a good Wolf beat a good Pika and Wario, yet a Fox has never beaten his hard counter either. The double standards in this thread. No wonder BBR barely takes anything most of you say seriously

 

[Exceladon City]

Kain, people look at it from a "How popular is this bad match-up?" perspective. Since D3 is way more common than Sheik and Pika, they look at it as "Well, Wolf can't survive in this environment." I personally don't think using MK (or any character for that matter) as a means of dealing with a bad match-up makes your character look any better or worse. It's a ****ty match-up, why bother with it? If you're still shutting down 32-33 other characters with your main, what's 2-3 bad match-ups?

 

[Seagull Joe]

I've beaten Slikvik (Wario) 2 times now with Wolf only.

 

[_Kain_]

Kain, people look at it from a "How popular is this bad match-up?" perspective. Since D3 is way more common than Sheik and Pika, they look at it as "Well, Wolf can't survive in this environment." I personally don't think using MK (or any character for that matter) as a means of dealing with a bad match-up makes your character look any better or worse. It's a ****ty match-up, why bother with it? If you're still shutting down 32-33 other characters with your main, what's 2-3 bad match-ups?

D3 is common but most of the players that play him aren't that good or should be feared. Only Coney, Atomsk, and CO18 and prolly some other serious mains of him. A pocket D3 isn't capable of beating Wolf. I've never had hard time with DDD in bracket til SiiS4 in where it seemed I had terrible luck and they put me where all the DDD mains were in the bracket LOL. That plus the fact that I barely ever get to practice the MU I was trying things against him for the first time. Popularity of certain characters doesn't change the fact that your character is **** against some when it comes down to it. If you guys want to argue Wolf is bad until he can beat a good Pika or Wario or DDD, then I can say the same about Fox. The point is half of you ignore this fact for other characters in mid tier cause of hype. Oh cool Fox is beating a bunch of MK's, a MU they claim to be 50-50...is that really a big deal? Not to mention I've beaten a good Pika and Wario already soooo....

Then you guys try to say salty Wolf mains. Ain't no one salty, most of you are just dumb, hence none of what you even say gets taken seriously by the BBR and you do bad when you actually do play the game. This is why this thread is here for you all to argue about things like it matters when the BBR is making the new tier list

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

DDD is more common but not as bad as Pika, ICs, and Sheik are for Fox.

I think having 3 "30:70" match-ups is far worse than any bad match-up Wolf has, not matter how uncommon.

 

[Yink]

Yoshi > Ness IMO

Wolf > Fox

Kirby > ROB (but I'm not positive on my thoughts here due to recent results)

Sheilda is just barely over Sheik. Having an easier time in 3-4 mu's doesn't equal 3 spots higher

Weegee isn't mid tier

Peach > Pit

all my opinion

With the except of Luigi and definitely Ness, I agree with this.

Yep. Yoshi is not better than Ness Z. I'm just giving you a hard time too, Ryu.

/look at all that Ness bias.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yep. Yoshi is not better than Ness Z. I'm just giving you a hard time too, Ryu.

/look at all that Ness bias.

Not a problem at all Yink.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I wonder if DDD is actually more common than ICs in the USA? Doubt it.
I also wonder to what extent the IC match-up is winnable for Fox. I think DDD is winnable for Wolf.

[Not to be biased towards Wolf but I think it's questionable to claim that DDD holds Wolf more back than ICs do against Fox]

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Except Wolf shares those bad match-ups anyway.

Kain: Fox and Wolf share a lot of the same problems, but Fox overcomes them and places better than Wolf. He beats better players than Wolf, and has been doing it longer, and does it more often. There are many many many top 10 placings for Fox. There are many many cases where Fox has beaten top players like DEHF and Tyrant and others. Sorry but like... You beating Hunger just isn't as impressive. It isn't the same thing, dude.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Except Wolf shares those bad match-ups anyway.

None of which except for maybe Pika are close to being terribad like they are with Fox.

 

[Exceladon City]

DDD is more common but not as bad as Pika, ICs, and Sheik are for Fox.

I think having 3 "30:70" match-ups is far worse than any bad match-up Wolf has, not matter how uncommon.

I think Fox can take Pika, but it'll be a goddamned difficult task. As far as ICs go, you're better off not risking it. It could happen, but it's unlikely and Sheik is a no. Period.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think Fox can take Pika, but it'll be a goddamned difficult task. As far as ICs go, you're better off not risking it. It could happen, but it's unlikely and Sheik is a no. Period.

I go Sheik on every Fox to make them realize how hard it is. I can't do the same for Wolf vs D3's. I've tried lololololol.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't think I've ever played a fox I didn't 0-death with dsmash but the MU is still in Fox's favor lol.

 

[Exceladon City]

I go Sheik on every Fox to make them realize how hard it is. I can't do the same for Wolf vs D3's. I've tried lololololol.

About 2 years ago when I mained Fox, I drilled that **** with Judo for like 4-5 hours. It's not winnable. Unless that Sheik is braindead, there is a 5% chance you can win.

 

[Espy Rose]

All of the arguments I've seen in this thread, no matter how convoluted

Always seems to have MK as a core problem

ragemode

That's because Meta Knight is broken and needs to be banned, obviously.

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry but like... You beating Hunger just isn't as impressive. It isn't the same thing, dude.

Fine, I'll respond to this. You act like Hunger is the only good player Kain has beaten. Did you see the bracket for SiiS4? Kain beat Atomsk. He's also beaten Hylian not long before that, a top IC's player. Kain has not won only small tournaments, but regionals.

You're shutting out Wolf's accomplishments in tourney, or just belittling them. Like Kain said, the double standards in this thread are ridiculous.

Y'all dumb.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Ummm there's a video of TKD beating Chudat's Kirby. With Fox.

But yea Fox isn't good on counterpicks, that's been established. But neither is like the whole cast with the exception of MK, Wario, G&W, and a few others.

Pit being one of those others who isn't phased by counterpicks much.

Pit is going up? What has he done?

Next to nothing like half of mid tier. There's Theorycraft Mid tier (Pit, Peach, Etc...) and characters that have results to back it up (Wolf, Fox, TL, etc...). Generally speaking the result ones should be above those of pure theory if we can agree they are still similar enough to all be the same tier.

Weegee isn't mid tier

Peach > Pit

all my opinion

Your entitled to your opinion. Agree with Weegee, Disagree with Peach > Pit.

That's because Meta Knight is broken and needs to be banned, obviously.

YES!!!!

 

[_Kain_]

Except Wolf shares those bad match-ups anyway.

Kain: Fox and Wolf share a lot of the same problems, but Fox overcomes them and places better than Wolf. He beats better players than Wolf, and has been doing it longer, and does it more often. There are many many many top 10 placings for Fox. There are many many cases where Fox has beaten top players like DEHF and Tyrant and others. Sorry but like... You beating Hunger just isn't as impressive. It isn't the same thing, dude.

You talk like you know who I've beaten. Please don't cause your just looking real ignorant, you have no idea of the track record I have. Fox doesn't overcome anythign what are you talking about why do you blatantly state things that aren't true I just said. FOX HAS NEVER BEATEN ANY OF HIS HARD COUNTERS. Why do you have to be the most uniformative poster here? Arguing with you is ridiculous

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Atomsk and Hylian are both strong achievements, but its no DEHF/Tyrant.

I think its the opposite, with wolf mains inflating their accomplishments (and they are very nice) to make their character look better. :/

I'm clearly not the only person who believes this, Kain, because Wolf is still low-mid tier.

I don't think any Wolf main could take a set away from DEHF or Tyrant or even NickRiddle, but I'll be happy if it happens. Let's see it.

Btw I meant that Fox maintains as a true tournament threat, where Wolf doesn't. He does that without needing to beat ESAM or lain or whatever. Dedede is a bigger problem. Props for beating atomsk though.

 

[_Kain_]

Atomsk and Hylian are both strong achievements, but its no DEHF/Tyrant.

I think its the opposite, with wolf mains inflating their accomplishments (and they are very nice) to make their character look better. :/

I'm clearly not the only person who believes this, Kain, because Wolf is still low-mid tier.

I don't think any Wolf main could take a set away from DEHF or Tyrant or even NickRiddle, but I'll be happy if it happens. Let's see it.

I have more than that but running down my track record will just look like I'm bragging or trying to make myself good. Your misinformed. Cool wait til the new Tier list comes out, like I said what you think really doesn't even matter cause your opinion barely matters. It's just the fact that you try to talk like you know what your saying

 

[Ishiey]

lol Auspher. Totally done with this thread I see

Also, about what Seagull said, those wins I had were quite a while ago. I've done nothing notable as of late, unless taking game 1 off of good players counts for anything (which it shouldn't). Take into account my inactivity, and... yeah. I don't exactly exist lol

About Fox though. I really don't see anything pushing him up the tier list aside from his pretty solid MK MU :/ The Fox mains that I've seen and played are all very good so this is no disrespect to any of them, but it just feels like people still aren't prepared for Fox, don't know exactly how to handle him. A good character with some key flaws, but moving him up any higher than he already is wouldn't be justified... at least not yet.

@ SFP: Atomsk is not comparable to DEHF/Tyrant? What? He's top 10 in the US. This is not neighbor bias. Results. Seriously dude :/

Speaking of DEHF, he has a set with Shiro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWsYZCJMow4 It was tournament, and yes I'm aware that Shiro lost (idk where the other matches are), and I'm also aware that they both messed some things up bad, but... yeah. Just sayin'.

 

[Deleted member]

lol Auspher. Totally done with this thread I see

He wanted a post. Thought I'd be nice.

 

[Chuee]

So when Seagull goes MK to counter Wolf's bad MU's it means Wolf sucks. But when TKD goes MK against his bad MU's it doesn't mean Fox is bad I wonder why? You people who post in here sometimes I question your intelligence. It's like you accept only what you want to accept.

lol, it means both of them are bad.
but the thing is Fox does better vs top/high tiers. aka the characters you're going to see often in tourney.

That and the fact that people want to see a good Wolf beat a good Pika and Wario, yet a Fox has never beaten his hard counter either. The double standards in this thread. No wonder BBR barely takes anything most of you say seriously

lol, Fox has beaten his hard counters before. KID's beaten Pikax2, Zeton's beaten Lain before.

Oh cool Fox is beating a bunch of MK's, a MU they claim to be 50-50...is that really a big deal? Not to mention I've beaten a good Pika and Wario already soooo....

Then you guys try to say salty Wolf mains. Ain't no one salty, most of you are just dumb, hence none of what you even say gets taken seriously by the BBR and you do bad when you actually do play the game. This is why this thread is here for you all to argue about things like it matters when the BBR is making the new tier list

Except that it does kinda matter LOL.
Mk is like sorta the most common tourney character. Having the best MU with MK in mid tier definitely means something.

DDD is more common but not as bad as Pika, ICs, and Sheik are for Fox.

I think having 3 "30:70" match-ups is far worse than any bad match-up Wolf has, not matter how uncommon.

I don't think they're 70-30. I think the Japanese fox's are the best at fighting IC's from what I've seen, and they don't make it look that bad.

I wonder if DDD is actually more common than ICs in the USA? Doubt it.
I also wonder to what extent the IC match-up is winnable for Fox. I think DDD is winnable for Wolf.

[Not to be biased towards Wolf but I think it's questionable to claim that DDD holds Wolf more back than ICs do against Fox]
ICs are more common than D3 in US.

None of which except for maybe Pika are close to being terribad like they are with Fox.

Once again, people acting like pika, ic, and sheik are like 80-20 with Fox lmao.

I think Fox can take Pika, but it'll be a goddamned difficult task. As far as ICs go, you're better off not risking it. It could happen, but it's unlikely and Sheik is a no. Period.

You just have to learn the MUs. Though they all look like stressful MUs.

About 2 years ago when I mained Fox, I drilled that **** with Judo for like 4-5 hours. It's not winnable. Unless that Sheik is braindead, there is a 5% chance you can win.

If verm can beat decent ICs with Ganon Fox can surely beat decent Sheiks.

Fine, I'll respond to this. You act like Hunger is the only good player Kain has beaten. Did you see the bracket for SiiS4? Kain beat Atomsk. He's also beaten Hylian not long before that, a top IC's player. Kain has not won only small tournaments, but regionals.

You're shutting out Wolf's accomplishments in tourney, or just belittling them. Like Kain said, the double standards in this thread are ridiculous.

Y'all dumb.

Ok.
1. Kain only beat Atomsk because Atomsk goofed off during the set and went wolf game 1 then switched to MK after he had 2 stocked Kain.
2. Kain hasn't won regionals. A regional is something the size of SiiS4. I haven't seen Kain win a tournament that large.
3. I dumb

You talk like you know who I've beaten. Please don't cause your just looking real ignorant, you have no idea of the track record I have. Fox doesn't overcome anythign what are you talking about why do you blatantly state things that aren't true I just said. FOX HAS NEVER BEATEN ANY OF HIS HARD COUNTERS. Why do you have to be the most uniformative poster here? Arguing with you is ridiculous

I know who you've beaten, and Fox has done a lot more lol.
but y umad tho?

About Fox though. I really don't see anything pushing him up the tier list aside from his pretty solid MK MU :/ The Fox mains that I've seen and played are all very good so this is no disrespect to any of them, but it just feels like people still aren't prepared for Fox, don't know exactly how to handle him. A good character with some key flaws, but moving him up any higher than he already is wouldn't be justified... at least not yet.

@ SFP: Atomsk is not comparable to DEHF/Tyrant? What? He's top 10 in the US. This is not neighbor bias. Results. Seriously dude :/

1. Uh, he has solid MUs with entire top tier minus ICs. Even if some of the people Fox beats don't entirely know the MU, Trevonte beating TKD is a good example that Fox vs MK is near even, even when the MK knows the MU.
2. Uh, Atomsk is good but not quite top 10 imo, maybe top 20, but even so Atomsk would've won had he stayed D3.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Auspher, Kain - do NOT respong to Chuee's post!

 

[DMG]

Edit: Bro, did you just say Atomsk isn't top 10? Are you dumb? Lol

That and the fact that people want to see a good Wolf beat a good Pika and Wario, yet a Fox has never beaten his hard counter either. The double standards in this thread. No wonder BBR barely takes anything most of you say seriously

Wolf mains have their bad matchups show more often in tournament, and I'd say it's slightly easier to go Wario, Dedede, etc than Pika or IC's (I think Sheik vs Fox is retardedly easy to learn as Sheik, I'd do that matchup in a heart beat after watching Light play a bunch of Fox players)

With that said though, you cannot ignore his bad matchups just because they aren't as common as other characters. If you have 3 70:30 or harder matchups, that should properly reflect on your spot in the tier list.

Kain, people look at it from a "How popular is this bad match-up?" perspective. Since D3 is way more common than Sheik and Pika, they look at it as "Well, Wolf can't survive in this environment." I personally don't think using MK (or any character for that matter) as a means of dealing with a bad match-up makes your character look any better or worse. It's a ****ty match-up, why bother with it? If you're still shutting down 32-33 other characters with your main, what's 2-3 bad match-ups?

Fox doesn't shut down 32-33 characters of the cast lol, but yeah. It's not necessarily how many bad matchups you have, but the severity of the disadvantage also comes into play. I'd rather have a character who had 4 6:4 matchups instead of a character than had 1 8:2 or 2 7:3's. Having multiple matchups only be a soft counter is doable in the tournament scene, but having even just 1 "impossible" or near impossible matchup can significantly damper your viability.

Fox doesn't just have a bunch of soft counters, instead he kinda got shafted and got a few hard counters (with Shiek IMO on borderline impossible unless she doesn't know how to do anything lol) with soft counters also mixed into play.

I wonder if DDD is actually more common than ICs in the USA? Doubt it.
I also wonder to what extent the IC match-up is winnable for Fox. I think DDD is winnable for Wolf.

[Not to be biased towards Wolf but I think it's questionable to claim that DDD holds Wolf more back than ICs do against Fox]

When people say Dedede holds Wolf back more than IC's for Fox, it tends to be related to character popularity. Dedede is slightly more popular here than America, if only because of the CP factor. You're more likely to see a person CP Dedede than someone CP IC's if the person doesn't main either character.

With that said, Fox vs IC's IS winnable, but it's still probably a hard counter. Hard counters ARE winnable, but it's not very likely. Wolf has some matchups like that and Fox does as well.

I don't think I've ever played a fox I didn't 0-death with dsmash but the MU is still in Fox's favor lol.

I know, his air camping is too good even though you have solid vertical coverage with your character. No answer to lasering away and then jumping above you and running to the other side!

How do you 0-death the character, and he does so well against you that he not only can swing it back to even, but obtain an advantage over you? I don't see how that can be any worse than even for ZSS, and that's being generous and assuming Fox's camping is going along without a hitch.

Atomsk and Hylian are both strong achievements, but its no DEHF/Tyrant.

I think its the opposite, with wolf mains inflating their accomplishments (and they are very nice) to make their character look better. :/

I'm clearly not the only person who believes this, Kain, because Wolf is still low-mid tier.

I don't think any Wolf main could take a set away from DEHF or Tyrant or even NickRiddle, but I'll be happy if it happens. Let's see it.

Btw I meant that Fox maintains as a true tournament threat, where Wolf doesn't. He does that without needing to beat ESAM or lain or whatever. Dedede is a bigger problem. Props for beating atomsk though.

Fox is only more relevant because people fail to CP his as hard as could happen. That, and you can't just threaten TKD with Shiek or something out of nowhere because he's got a MK to deal with as well. (That's not a plus for Fox, but for TKD the player for covering his back like that).

Fox vs bad matchup doesn't happen as much as it does to Wolf, but the matchups are still there and they aren't going away any time soon.