Official BBR Recommended Rule Set 3.1

[SaveMeJebus]

LGL's are the de facto standard anyway. The only reason imo the BBR didn't expressly limit them because it's so hard to agree how to do it. Ban MK? Global LGL? Just MK? How many? Do we say drop-->double Uair is banned? How do we enforce that?Every single solution has problems. Every. Single. One.

Spoiler

except for quitting vBrawl and just playing mods lol, that's work fine

Also except for making people play with honor, which (like ^^^DMG's post) is a de facto standard as well. When some top MK loses all sense of shame and manly pride is when the BBR will rule on this.

what is the problem with banning single or double U-airs while on the ledge with MK?

 

[theunabletable]

Metaknights has been able to plank since the day the game shipped but it has not been an issue at any point in the past 2 years. Why do you want to implement a rule for something that does not happen and is not an issue?

Well considering that every tournament I've ever been to (and mostly every tournament I've seen in this last year atleast) has had ledge grab rules in place to prevent planking.

So, I mean, it's not like anyone could ever even give you a video of it being done to win a tournament when every important tournament had it banned in some shape or form.

 

[Luxor]

It doesn't stop people single or double Uairing while on the ledge with MK.

It's unenforceable on any serious scale.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It doesn't stop people single or double Uairing while on the ledge with MK.

It's unenforceable on any serious scale.

that shouldn't be banned if done on stage. the peach bomber in melee was only banned when it was used to stall

Edit: I misread it. MK should be banned from using U-air as his first attack while on the ledge whether he has invincibility frames or not. This way there is no confusion about wether he did it during his invincibility frames or not

 

[Luxor]

When did I say it should banned onstage? lol

Peach bomber is rather different, almost a non-issue since it doesn't work on most stages anyway. When it does work, for one Peach can't just stop doing it like MK can, so it's much easier to spot and therefore more enforceable. It's also easier to define- there's only one peach bomber stall and a million ways to plank. There's also the issue that Uairing off the ledge is a perfectly legitimate way to clear a way back onstage for MK to actually fight.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

When did I say it should banned onstage? lol

Peach bomber is rather different, almost a non-issue since it doesn't work on most stages anyway. When it does work, for one Peach can't just stop doing it like MK can, so it's much easier to spot and therefore more enforceable. It's also easier to define- there's only one peach bomber stall and a million ways to plank. There's also the issue that Uairing off the ledge is a perfectly legitimate way to clear a way back onstage for MK to actually fight.

there is only one way to plank that is unpunishable and that is explained in DMG's thread. You can also make the rule that MK's first action out of the ledge can't be a U-air this means that an MK can jump and then U-air meaning his first attack can still be a U-air.I think U-air as his first attack out of the ledge should be banned though.

 

[Spelt]

there is only one way to plank that is unpunishable and that is explained in DMG's thread.

Herp. Nobody's denying this. they're saying it's hard to spot and call out effectively. what if the mk purposely slows down his uairs a bit so there's a couple frames for the opponent to punish. who would know besides the MK?

You can also make the rule that MK's first action out of the ledge can't be a U-air this means that an MK can jump and then U-air meaning his first attack can still be a U-air.I think U-air as his first attack out of the ledge should be banned though.

so if he jumps off of the ledge/gets up off the ledge/rolls off of the ledge and does a uair he's disqualified?

If the MK jumps off of the ledge, and runs to the other side of the stage and uairs, he's DQ'd?

If the mk rolls onto the stage, shields an attack, moves to mexico, gets into a car accident, has surgery, fights with his wife, and uair's oos he's DQ'd?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Herp. Nobody's denying this. they're saying it's hard to spot and call out effectively. what if the mk purposely slows down his uairs a bit so there's a couple frames for the opponent to punish. who would know besides the MK?



so if he jumps off of the ledge/gets up off the ledge/rolls off of the ledge and does a uair he's disqualified?

If the MK jumps off of the ledge, and runs to the other side of the stage and uairs, he's DQ'd?

If the mk rolls onto the stage, shields an attack, moves to mexico, gets into a car accident, has surgery, fights with his wife, and uair's oos he's DQ'd?

it has to be done while he is outside

 

[Spelt]

it has to be done while he is outside

I hear you can play nut outside, too.

 

[Luxor]

Two problems:

1. Still unenforceable
2. MK is still impossible to unseat from the ledge in practical terms, with DC/Nado/SL/Invincible any aerial
3. Uairing is a valid option MK has in that situation that's just really good. This is like saying D3 can't dash grab after a Dthrow; both are unbeatable in their own situation. Only difference is D3's CG is avoidable and finite. Whereas planking... needs some kind of limit, even if it is just honor-based.

*hopes nobody calls me out for actually making three points*

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Two problems:

1. Still unenforceable
2. MK is still impossible to unseat from the ledge in practical terms, with DC/Nado/SL/Invincible any aerial
3. Uairing is a valid option MK has in that situation that's just really good. This is like saying D3 can't dash grab after a Dthrow; both are unbeatable in their own situation. Only difference is D3's CG is avoidable and finite. Whereas planking... needs some kind of limit, even if it is just honor-based.

*hopes nobody calls me out for actually making three points*

1. how is it unenforceable?
2. all his other options are punishable because they last longer than the invincibility frames you get on the ledge.
3. U-air is a valid option but it is also proven to be broken on the ledge. No one is saying that the move should be banned. I just think that a rule should be enforced that bans the use of this move right after the ledge grab.

 

[-LzR-]

Why don't we ban gordos. It's too powerful. If Dedede throws a gordo, he gets banned, so he must be careful with his sideB.
You see, uair is a nice option from the ledge, you can't take it away. Also, what is the MK ACCIDENTALLY presses the cstick up after a ledge grab?

 

[deepseadiva]

Also, what if the MK ACCIDENTALLY presses the cstick up after a ledge grab?

Obviously, he loses the set.

 

[-Vocal-]

Man, after being away for a short while I've realized how dull, frustrating, and annoying it is to talk about Meta Knight

After skimming, my quick thoughts: Peach Bomber was banned because of its stalling potential. If the same is agreed about PPlanking, then it should be banned as well, just as IDC is. This doesn't change the fact that he's still very good on the ledge, even if he doesn't PPlank...

And for anyone who says "what if it's not frame perfect," it doesn't matter; banning the use of two Uairs to regrab is pretty specific. If they use multiple jumps, fine, if they Uair then Fair, fine, etc.

Still fantastic on a ledge...

 

[Spelt]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257229


peach bomber isn't even banned, nor is rising pound.
meta knight is though.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I was reading the thread that DMG wrote on planking. From what I read, the reason why it is broken is because he basically gets two invincible U-airs, then he can just re-grab the ledge and repeat this over and over again. Why don't they just make a rule against that? Make a rule that bans U-air as the first attack while on the ledge(when using MK). This fixes the planking problem.

I'm on the ledge getting attacked from above. I have:
-Airdodge
-Uair

Which is the better option? (Hint: the one that lasts 21 frames and has a massive-*** hitbox, as opposed to the one that lasts 40+ frames and doesn't) If I don't intend to plank, uair certainly isn't broken, it's just a really good option. Additionally, if I drop, uair... what then? Prove that I did it if the judge isn't watching. But then again, drop uair isn't what's broken... It's drop, uair, fastfall just right, jump, uair, regrab. Let's ban that instead, so as not to limit MK's options beyond what is truly broken.

Of course, it hits exactly the same issue as the drop uair ban. If I do that, how are you going to demonstrate it to a judge? Should judges watch every MK match for drop->uair? The rule has serious issues, limits MK's ledge options severely, bans a lot of things that aren't broken, and in fact are fairly essential to MK's metagame, and is completely untestable.

It's as arbitrary as banning Peach's infinite bomber tech which they did ban in Melee.

They didn't.

Can someone name me a single time metaknight has used his unbeatable planking to win a tournament of note or a money match of 10$ or more? A video must be supplied as well.

Why are we trying to ban something that has never happened in a competitive environment and has not been an issue at any point in the full year and a half that ledge grab limits did not exist?

Oh boy.

Sunshade, we don't have to. It's like asking for vids of fox circle camping on temple hyrule to show it's broken, and him winning tourney matches with it. It's not necessary because it has been proven outside of tournaments with good frame data that it is without a single doubt completely unbeatable. I know, I advocate tournament evidence too, but the frame data shows that this really is a case like IDC or circle camping-it doesn't just break the game, it destroys it and throws it in a fire.

Why does someone necessarily have to put up money and get their *** beat just so that you can be convinced that a move or technique should be banned? Some things are just common sense like if you have a character like Jigglypuff in Melee with an attack that can be used to infinity stall , it might actually be used to infinity stall in a tournament.

Well, because not half as much is "common sense" as you might think. Mostly due to bias. Take that ICs fusion glitch that had several people up in arms. It does not belong to the category "proven conclusively through frame data research" or "Proven conclusively through testing", therefore it may seem like common sense to ban it, but it would be ridiculously scrubby to do so.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257229


peach bomber isn't even banned, nor is rising pound.
meta knight is though.

Oh my god my *** just flew off
MK would be sooo broken in Melee. Rufio combo guaranteed from almost anything low % on the whole cast. And yeah, peach bomber and rising pound aren't banned.

 

[da K.I.D.]

It has not happened and has not been an issue.

Thats a GD lie.

all you have to do is pull up plank matchs vs fly amanita and sk92 on youtube to see how gay planking is, and that was a year and a half ago when Mks werent even good at ledge play.

what is the problem with banning single or double U-airs while on the ledge with MK?

The problem is that its a rule that is specifically targetting MK, and if you need to specifically target MK with a rule like that, you are admitting that he is really too good to be in teh game, that he should be banned, but you dont have the stones to do it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257229


peach bomber isn't even banned, nor is rising pound.
meta knight is though.

go into every major melee tournament thread ever, and Im pretty sure youll see that both of those techniques are banned.

People that know absolutely nothing about melee outside of hearsay on the boards, shouldnt bring that game up as part of their arguements.

I have had people rising pound stall on me and peach bomb stall on me in melee, pound is unbeatable in the correct circumstance (too high and too far off stage that your opponent cant hit you). and the only way to beat bomber stall is to do a move that WILL kill you and MAY kill the peach. thats why those things are banned in tournaments.

Sunshade, we don't have to. It's like asking for vids of fox circle camping on temple hyrule to show it's broken, and him winning tourney matches with it. It's not necessary because it has been proven outside of tournaments with good frame data that it is without a single doubt completely unbeatable. I know, I advocate tournament evidence too, but the frame data shows that this really is a case like IDC or circle camping-it doesn't just break the game, it destroys it and throws it in a fire.

i like this.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I'm on the ledge getting attacked from above. I have:
-Airdodge
-Uair

Which is the better option? (Hint: the one that lasts 21 frames and has a massive-*** hitbox, as opposed to the one that lasts 40+ frames and doesn't) If I don't intend to plank, uair certainly isn't broken, it's just a really good option. Additionally, if I drop, uair... what then? Prove that I did it if the judge isn't watching. But then again, drop uair isn't what's broken... It's drop, uair, fastfall just right, jump, uair, regrab. Let's ban that instead, so as not to limit MK's options beyond what is truly broken.

Of course, it hits exactly the same issue as the drop uair ban. If I do that, how are you going to demonstrate it to a judge? Should judges watch every MK match for drop->uair? The rule has serious issues, limits MK's ledge options severely, bans a lot of things that aren't broken, and in fact are fairly essential to MK's metagame, and is completely untestable.



They didn't.



Oh boy.

Sunshade, we don't have to. It's like asking for vids of fox circle camping on temple hyrule to show it's broken, and him winning tourney matches with it. It's not necessary because it has been proven outside of tournaments with good frame data that it is without a single doubt completely unbeatable. I know, I advocate tournament evidence too, but the frame data shows that this really is a case like IDC or circle camping-it doesn't just break the game, it destroys it and throws it in a fire.



Well, because not half as much is "common sense" as you might think. Mostly due to bias. Take that ICs fusion glitch that had several people up in arms. It does not belong to the category "proven conclusively through frame data research" or "Proven conclusively through testing", therefore it may seem like common sense to ban it, but it would be ridiculously scrubby to do so.



Oh my god my *** just flew off
MK would be sooo broken in Melee. Rufio combo guaranteed from almost anything low % on the whole cast. And yeah, peach bomber and rising pound aren't banned.

The reason why I think we should ban MK's U-air as his first attack off the ledge is because it just makes everything a lot easier. If you ban MK from only using his U-air while he is invincible, there will be too much confusion on whether the opponent was really planking or not. It's not like he doesn't have other options on the ledge. The player is just going to have to be smarter about what he does. If the player accidentally U-airs, he should get a warning. If he does it again,he should lose a stock.

Also infinite peach bomber and rising pound are banned along with wobbling in most tournaments http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=273752

At Da K.I.D: If the smash community just banned characters who have character specific broken moves, The Melee community would no longer be able to use characters like Jigglypuff, Peach and Ice Climbers which as someone has already mentioned would lead to a game with much less depth.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There is however, also a legitimate reason for MK to use his Uair after coming off of the ledge. What if he's not planking, but his opponent is right above him. What is he suppose to do, Nair? Shuttle Loop? What if he jumps 5 times after grabbing the ledge before touching the ground, is he not allowed to Uair the entire time unless he does another random attack first?

The rule is just stupid, and if you need to be that precise in targeting a character, to the point where you say "You can not use move A in B situation until C has been met", you need to ban the character. You're being WAY too surgical just in order to keep a broken character legal.

 

[da K.I.D.]

There is however, also a legitimate reason for MK to use his Uair after coming off of the ledge. What if he's not planking, but his opponent is right above him. What is he suppose to do, Nair? Shuttle Loop? What if he jumps 5 times after grabbing the ledge before touching the ground, is he not allowed to Uair the entire time unless he does another random attack first?

The rule is just stupid, and if you need to be that precise in targeting a character, to the point where you say "You can not use move A in B situation until C has been met", you need to ban the character. You're being WAY too surgical just in order to keep a broken character legal.

This is exactly right.

and thats what makes it different than saying, "dont peach bomb on the bottom of a wall" or "dont do rising pound in an area that they cant reach you."

 

[SaveMeJebus]

There is however, also a legitimate reason for MK to use his Uair after coming off of the ledge. What if he's not planking, but his opponent is right above him. What is he suppose to do, Nair? Shuttle Loop? What if he jumps 5 times after grabbing the ledge before touching the ground, is he not allowed to Uair the entire time unless he does another random attack first?

The rule is just stupid, and if you need to be that precise in targeting a character, to the point where you say "You can not use move A in B situation until C has been met", you need to ban the character. You're being WAY too surgical just in order to keep a broken character legal.

This should be the rule: MK's ledge drop double U-air is banned. there is nothing against ledge drop to jump to U-air in this rule. as long as the MK player does not use the double U-air out of the ledge drop, he should be fine

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What if the MK accidentally drops down from the ledge, and the opponent is foolish enough to go for a spiking attempt? Are you saying MK cannot defend himself with Uair? What if he was hanging from the ledge in an edgeguarding attempt, and then realized that the opponent was just barely going to make it over him. MK can't drop, float to the side, and Uair him? That's an arbitrary rule. If you need to make rules like that: ban the character. There are situations were you may need to legitimately use Uair out of a ledgedrop. There isn't a situation where you need to use IDC, or Peach Bomber stall. If you are banning a legitimate situation, you are saying "this character needs to be banned".

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What if the MK accidentally drops down from the ledge, and the opponent is foolish enough to go for a spiking attempt? Are you saying MK cannot defend himself with Uair? What if he was hanging from the ledge in an edgeguarding attempt, and then realized that the opponent was just barely going to make it over him. MK can't drop, float to the side, and Uair him? That's an arbitrary rule. If you need to make rules like that: ban the character. There are situations were you may need to legitimately use Uair out of a ledgedrop. There isn't a situation where you need to use IDC, or Peach Bomber stall. If you are banning a legitimate situation, you are saying "this character needs to be banned".

HE can still defend himself. He can still jump to U-air, N-air, tornado and even SL. Only a stupid MK would get spiked. I could say that the reason I used Jigglypuff's rising pound was because I had the percent lead an I did not want to loose my stock. Isn't this a legitimate situation?

 

[-Vocal-]

The reason why I think we should ban MK's U-air as his first attack off the ledge is because it just makes everything a lot easier. If you ban MK from only using his U-air while he is invincible, there will be too much confusion on whether the opponent was really planking or not. It's not like he doesn't have other options on the ledge. The player is just going to have to be smarter about what he does. If the player accidentally U-airs, he should get a warning. If he does it again,he should lose a stock.

Also infinite peach bomber and rising pound are banned along with wobbling in most tournaments http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=273752

At Da K.I.D: If the smash community just banned characters who have character specific broken moves, The Melee community would no longer be able to use characters like Jigglypuff, Peach and Ice Climbers which as someone has already mentioned would lead to a game with much less depth.

Peach Bomber: Stalling.

Ice Climbers: You can hit them while they're trying to grab you.

PPlanking: Ur screwed. Until A) It gets officially declared as stalling; B) People use an arbitrary, character-specific rule to limiti it; or C) Nah never mind, I don't have the heart to say it anymore when I know it'll never happen.

You are trying to tell people how to play the game. You are forbidding them from playing how they wish. The only other rule of this sort is the ban on stalling, which is universal, not character specific. He's really so good that you must tell him what he is not allowed to do yet you still don't think he's too broken to be in the game? If you think he should stay, then let him play. Start a campaign to get it defined as stalling - you'll have a better case there.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Peach Bomber: Stalling.

Ice Climbers: You can hit them while they're trying to grab you.

PPlanking: Ur screwed. Until A) It gets officially declared as stalling; B) People use an arbitrary, character-specific rule to limiti it; or C) Nah never mind, I don't have the heart to say it anymore when I know it'll never happen.

You are trying to tell people how to play the game. You are forbidding them from playing how they wish. The only other rule of this sort is the ban on stalling, which is universal, not character specific. He's really so good that you must tell him what he is not allowed to do yet you still don't think he's too broken to be in the game? If you think he should stay, then let him play. Start a campaign to get it defined as stalling - you'll have a better case there.

What if I am a Jjigglypuff player who likes to play "gay" and use rising pound. Isn't the rule against that tactic telling me how to play my game?

 

[-Vocal-]

What if I am a Jjigglypuff player who likes to play "gay" and use rising pound. Isn't the rule against that tactic telling me how to play my game?

That's stalling, further specified to remove the gray area, just as the same is done for Peach Bomber and IDC. This is why I said you have a better case if you try to get it defined as stalling.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That's stalling, further specified to remove the gray area, just as the same is done for Peach Bomber and IDC. This is why I said you have a better case if you try to get it defined as stalling.

How do you get people to recognize this as stalling?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

How do you get people to recognize this as stalling?

When it is actually stalling.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

When it is actually stalling.

It can be used for stalling. Just read DMG's thread.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The frames? Yes.

The Uairs? No, they themselves have nothing to do with the physical stalling. They can strengthen the stalling, but they don't make the action stalling.

 

[John12346]

Jigglypuff's Rising Pound is stalling because the opponent can't reach you.

Even though it's probably ridiculous and suicidal to try, you CAN reach MK while he's planking.

 

[Spelt]

go into every major melee tournament thread ever, and Im pretty sure youll see that both of those techniques are banned.

So they're just as banned as planking is? this still proves my point.

People that know absolutely nothing about melee outside of hearsay on the boards, shouldnt bring that game up as part of their arguements.

i didn't bring it up, nor do i not know anything about melee.

 

[-Vocal-]

Jigglypuff's Rising Pound is stalling because the opponent can't reach you.

Even though it's probably ridiculous and suicidal to try, you CAN reach MK while he's planking.

Not while he's PPlanking. He's invincible, and the Uairs keep you from stealing the ledge from you. I heard someone say once that you could Shield DI (real?) a Uair onto the ledge, but I really doubt this is a solid argument for allowing it.

@Jebus: Iunno. I'd think more but I've got Spanish and Cognitive Science classwork to attend to >.<

 

[sunshade]

"Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable"

For something to be stalling under the BBR ruleset you but intentionally avoid your opponent so that the game is unplayable. Let me convert that into a check list to determine if something is stalling.

1. Is the player deliberately preforming the tactic?
2. Is the tactic at hand avoiding any and all conflict?
3. Is the tactic making the game unplayable?

For something to be stalling it must meet all 3 criteria as according to the BBR ruleset. Now lets fill out those checks with Metaknight's Pplanking

1. yes
2. no
3. It depends on your definition of "unplayable"

Metaknights Pplanking is unbeatable, but not stalling. Please stop saying that it is and trying to create rules to ban planking when Metaknight is what is broken.

 

[Luxor]

Not while he's PPlanking. He's invincible, and the Uairs keep you from stealing the ledge from you. I heard someone say once that you could Shield DI (real?) a Uair onto the ledge, but I really doubt this is a solid argument for allowing it.

IIRC it's impossible to break in even with SSDI >.<

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

No, you can SSDI to the extent that it lets you steal the ledge from him... And then you're on the ledge, he's on stage, and he can either dash to the other side with his 5th-best-in-the-game run speed, or he can abuse his options to make your life hell (you just voluntarily took to the ledge against metaknight, you numbskull!). The former is safe in literally every case, so yeah...

 

[-Vocal-]

If I could count the number of times I've had this conversation over the past couple months...

You know, the more I try to think about it, the more it just becomes a headache. I was going to say something along the lines of a tactic that makes you invincible that can be used repeatedly should be banned, but then I remembered Oli's Whistle, DK's punch, etc. It's still far beyond those in that PPlanking has no vulnerable frames but...

>.<

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If I could count the number of times I've had this conversation over the past couple months...

You know, the more I try to think about it, the more it just becomes a headache. I was going to say something along the lines of a tactic that makes you invincible that can be used repeatedly should be banned, but then I remembered Oli's Whistle, DK's punch, etc. It's still far beyond those in that PPlanking has no vulnerable frames but...

>.<

What you said can work since characters like olimar and DK still take damage.

 

[-Vocal-]

What you said can work since characters like olimar and DK still take damage.

Oh yea, you're right.

So MK is the only character that can indefinitely keep himself entirely invulnerable.

>.>

I would say just ban the technique, but finding a way in which to do it without specifically dictating the actions MK players can make is harder than it would seem.

 

[Shaya]

I'm pretty sure Marth can too