Official BBR Recommended Rule Set 3.1

[DaomarIsBear]

I like how no one responded to this

Me too. Maybe everyone has realized how terribad everything you say is, and has finally stopped wasting their time.

 

[AvaricePanda]

I like how no one responded to this

well.

Falco wasn't made to approach? Oh darn.
Snake wasn't made to approach either.
Ganondorf wasn't made to camp.
Diddy Kong wasn't made to kill early.
Olimar wasn't made to have a great recovery.

Not every character has every good trait and you have to get over that. You can't say, "It's not fair that Falco has to approach sometimes, we should make a ruleset so he doesn't have to approach," because that's silly. Not only does that ruleset create tons of more problems, but it'd sound silly if I said something like, "It's not fair that Diddy kills at 150% and Snake kills at 100%! We should set handicaps based on match-ups."

If Falco has to approach in the current ruleset, that's not a problem with the ruleset. You're going to have to think of a better, more encompassing argument if you want to actually change the ruleset.

It's also very hard to have arguments with you when you disregard 90% of what I post.

Because:
1. It's not really possible to make falco never have to approach
2. It's not really NECESSARY. Who cares if falco has to approach? Every character does eventually. Why should falco be exempt? Just because you think he should never be forced to? Because you think he was built not to?



This is just stupid. Just because a character is given poor tools for something doesn't mean that character should never be forced to do that something. Look at olimar. He can't deal with edgeguarding, let's make sure that he never ends up offstage. ****ty logic.

I like how you didn't respond to these statements and just brought up a completely different point.

You can't expect other people to do things that you aren't doing. I shouldn't have to waste my time addressing every point you make if you won't even look at it. I went to go eat cake and watch Starcraft matches anyway; you were here the entire time.

 

[sunshade]

I like how no one responded to this

I like how you demand responses to everything you say but when a valid point comes up you don't respond to it or you change the topic to a new point.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

well.





I like how you didn't respond to these statements and just brought up a completely different point.

You can't expect other people to do things that you aren't doing. I shouldn't have to waste my time addressing every point you make if you won't even look at it. I went to go eat cake and watch Starcraft matches anyway; you were here the entire time.

You expect characters (that were build to camp) to approach, yet you don't agree with a rule that forces characters that were built to approach to approach? I like the way you guys think.

 

[bigman40]

You lose the lead, then you have to approach. Some characters can't do both good. Get over it and man the **** up. If you want your answers done, then come up with an alternative rule to justify your reasoning.

 

[AvaricePanda]

well.


I like how you didn't respond to these statements and just brought up a completely different point.

You can't expect other people to do things that you aren't doing. I shouldn't have to waste my time addressing every point you make if you won't even look at it. I went to go eat cake and watch Starcraft matches anyway; you were here the entire time.

You expect characters (that were build to camp) to approach, yet you don't agree with a rule that forces characters that were built to approach to approach? I like the way you guys think.

...

...

I like how you didn't respond to these statements and just brought up a completely different point.

lol

 

[sunshade]

You expect characters (that were build to camp) to approach, yet you don't agree with a rule that forces characters that were built to approach to approach? I like the way you guys think.

You expect characters who have defensive options superior to their offensive options to approach simply because their offensive options are slight better than their opponents?

 

[vVv Rapture]

Everyone should just sit on either side of the stage and have a staring contest. First character to blink loses. Fairest way to determine the best player.

 

[BBQTV]

Everyone should just sit on either side of the stage and have a staring contest. First character to blink loses. Fairest way to determine the best player.

character or the player?

 

[sunshade]

Metaknight would continue to be the best in the game if that was the case. He would simply air camp the opponent with his back to the sun.

 

[vVv Rapture]

character or the player?

Character.

@Sunshade: No, they have to just stand there and look at the direction of the opponent's character. No moving, so no offense or defense. Just staring.

Your character blinks? You lose. Fair victory.

 

[BBQTV]

how can you tell if samus blinks?

 

[vVv Rapture]

You can't.

She always wins. Top tier.

 

[deepseadiva]

Hahahahahahaha @Rapture

 

[Spelt]

Oooh are we linking to other fighting games with timeouts?
search for blazblue cs matches containing rachel and there's a 90% chance that at least one match went to timeout.

 

[-Vocal-]

Me too. Maybe everyone has realized how terribad everything you say is, and has finally stopped wasting their time.

LOL

THIS SO MUCH

Why on Earth are we still discussing this? We've told Jebus everything a thousand times and he's not budging. Want to know the saddest part? IT'S EVERYONE VS. HIM. So just stop replying to him and maybe, just maybe, this thread can actually get back to discussing things worth talking about.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Vocal, we stopped responding to him to the point that I decided that a staring contest was the best way to play the game.

We got it covered.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I have a topic worth talking about.

Yoshis Island melee.

It was banned when 1. DDD was third best character in the game.
2. People didnt know how to not get grabbed.
3. "its really gay" was a valid ban criteria.

none of the above 3 still apply. why havent anybody started using it in their tourneys yet.

 

[Spelt]

Because it's really gay.

 

[bigman40]

In short, I heard it's feared cause of the power the pit gives to certain characters (add that with no LGL and that's pretty devastating). Other refutes I've heard are semi cave of life and light circle camping.

Oh yeah, Pikachu being able to CG people to death.

 

[Tesh]

Circle camping and the "cave of life" on Yoshi's Island should be treated the same way we treat walls, walkoffs, ceilings, ledgeless platforms on Rainbow Cruise. Its temporary and therefore not a problem right?

Also, if you are planking in the pit with pit, your opponent will get all the food and you will wind up losing anyway.

Pikachu might be a problem, because he is can CG people off the side, hit plankers with thunderjolts and thunder and he is fast enough to get most of the food. I think it should be tested in a large scale tournament to see if its broken though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ledge are only a rediculously good position in this game because normally in order to attack someone on the ledge, you have go offstage and risk killing yourself.

Such is NOT a problem on a stage like YI M since you can attack the person on the ledge and than safely drift to a soft landing on the other side of the pit.

also, the cave of life isnt really that good at saving lives on that stage since it kinda tend to either whiff the save or be flipping around at the time of the death blow.

fun fact, when hitting theside blocks that are blocking th pit on YI M, they spin for 8 seconds (as do the rest of teh blocks) but you can extend that time frame bygrabbing the ledge and then having the blocks/stage thats there, force you off the ledge.

 

[Tesh]

There is a cave of life on Final destination too right here.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That's SDI, and it works on any stage idealy.

 

[BBQTV]

how can i do that?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I have a topic worth talking about.

Yoshis Island melee.

It was banned when 1. DDD was third best character in the game.
2. People didnt know how to not get grabbed.
3. "its really gay" was a valid ban criteria.

none of the above 3 still apply. why havent anybody started using it in their tourneys yet.

Also,
4. People thought DDD could CG everyone up the slope and grouped it in with Eldin and Mario Circuit. Also not correct. The issues are...

In short, I heard it's feared cause of the power the pit gives to certain characters (add that with no LGL and that's pretty devastating). Other refutes I've heard are semi cave of life and light circle camping.

Oh yeah, Pikachu being able to CG people to death.

Well, first of all, if there isn't a global LGL, then the pit is likely to be a problem. I've seen the vids. Against most planking, you can hit your opponent from above and one side. Above usually sucks, as good plankers have good uairs/an nair that reaches above them. And YI(M) has the side covered. Worth looking in to.

Pika's CGs off the side are ridiculously %-based; if you get CG'd off the side, it's your own **** fault.

The cave of life effect is also an issue commonly mentioned, but I have yet to see it actually abused. I'd welcome anyone to show me it in a tournament/semi-high-level environment.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I'm going to take one final stab at it. I am going to right down all the reasons why I think that my rule set is better and if you guys can find a reason why the old rule set is better than this one, I will leave and never return (since that is what you guys want)

In the current rule set that we have right now, There are two ways to win (assuming your opponent shows up on time and does not get disqualified during a match for some reason). The first way is by removing all of your opponent's stocks. The second way is by having a lower % after the timer runs out. Some people will say that the timer was put in the rule set not only for the sake of finishing tournaments on time, but also to encourage players to approach. So it seems to me that if this was the reason that they added this rule, then it also seems to me that the whole point of this game is to fight your opponent (this could be from a distance through the use of projectile or from up close using ground or air attacks) until you remove all of your opponents stocks or the timer runs out. If the timer runs out the player with the lowest amount of percentage wins and this is where I feel that the problem lies.

Since this rule set favors the player with the % lead, The player with the lead will never have to approach and will always have the upper hand as long as he keeps this lead. Now it seems to me that the vary same rules that were put in this game to encourage approaches are now doing the exact opposite. You now have players than instead of fighting on the stage, will go and grab on to the ledge and stay there until the timer runs out or until they can get a clear shot at the opponent. You guys can argue with me all you want but as long as a player hangs on to the ledge and is really smart about what he does, he will always have the upper hand as the only way to attack him would be to have a projectile that can hit him down there and cannot be caught. Only about 20% of the cast has an attack that can do this and trying to hit your opponents with D-tilts or D-smashes won't work because when ledge grabbing is done right, the character will auto snap the ledge and after that, they will get a few invincibility frames. For some characters, the only way to fight this is to risk yourself and jump off and attacking. This in my opinion is almost as dangerous as trying to attack a sonic that is HA stalling. What is worse is that with this rule set sometimes, you have no choice and you are forced to go for it.

The ledge combined with a timer combined with a rule that favors a player with the lead is asking for trouble since you never know what player is going to try to bend the rules in his favor. I think that there should be a better rule than selecting the winner by percentage not only because it encourages players who have the lead to run away and ledge grab, but because unlike a life bar in a regular fighting game, % in this game can mean different things for different characters. 100% to a character like bowser is totally different from 100% on a character like jigglypuff. there are more things in this game that determine how long a character can survive like weight, breaks and momentum canceling where as in almost any other fighting game, all they have is the life meter. So can you explain to me why a character like Snake who is at 105% should lose to a character like jigglypuff who is at 100% if a timeout occurs when it so clear that the jigglypuff is closer to dying than the snake? It just doesn't make any sense

I feel that my rule set of determining the winner by the lower amount of ledge grabs instead percentage after the time out will get rid of the problems we have with the old rule set and give players more of an incentive to approach than the old rule set ever did and with a ten minute timer, no match up should go to time unless that is what they were aiming for.

 

[Tesh]

Quite a few characters can easily drop stuff into you if you plank, and you can't avoid it because there are walls.

Speaking of pikachu, if you planking him he will just jump over the ledge and thunder which doesn't put him in an awful position like it would on other stages.

Snake will just drop explosives on you and if the any of the blocks are active you will get spiked.

Why would planking even be an issue if you haven't fixed mks planking on every stage in the game? If its already okay, big deal a couple of other characters can do it. There is barely any risk involved attacking someone planking in the pit. If you mess up 20 times and they mess up once, they die and you live.

BPC I think the slope actually makes pikachu's cg less percent dependant, which is apparently some issue?


Also, this isn't Mario Kart, the ruleset is supposed to favor the person that is winning.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ill let somebody else answer in detail, but I will say that air planking still completely ***** your ruleset.

 

[-Vocal-]

I'm going to take one final stab at it. I am going to right down all the reasons why I think that my rule set is better and if you guys can find a reason why the old rule set is better than this one, I will leave and never return (since that is what you guys want)

In the current rule set that we have right now, There are two ways to win (assuming your opponent shows up on time and does not get disqualified during a match for some reason). The first way is by removing all of your opponent's stocks. The second way is by having a lower % after the timer runs out. Some people will say that the timer was put in the rule set not only for the sake of finishing tournaments on time, but also to encourage players to approach. So it seems to me that if this was the reason that they added this rule, then it also seems to me that the whole point of this game is to fight your opponent (this could be from a distance through the use of projectile or from up close using ground or air attacks) until you remove all of your opponents stocks or the timer runs out. If the timer runs out the player with the lowest amount of percentage wins and this is where I feel that the problem lies.

Since this rule set favors the player with the % lead, The player with the lead will never have to approach and will always have the upper hand as long as he keeps this lead. Now it seems to me that the vary same rules that were put in this game to encourage approaches are now doing the exact opposite. You now have players than instead of fighting on the stage, will go and grab on to the ledge and stay there until the timer runs out or until they can get a clear shot at the opponent. You guys can argue with me all you want but as long as a player hangs on to the ledge and is really smart about what he does, he will always have the upper hand as the only way to attack him would be to have a projectile that can hit him down there and cannot be caught. Only about 20% of the cast has an attack that can do this and trying to hit your opponents with D-tilts or D-smashes won't work because when ledge grabbing is done right, the character will auto snap the ledge and after that, they will get a few invincibility frames. For some characters, the only way to fight this is to risk yourself and jump off and attacking. This in my opinion is almost as dangerous as trying to attack a sonic that is HA stalling. What is worse is that with this rule set sometimes, you have no choice and you are forced to go for it.

The ledge combined with a timer combined with a rule that favors a player with the lead is asking for trouble since you never know what player is going to try to bend the rules in his favor. I think that there should be a better rule than selecting the winner by percentage not only because it encourages players who have the lead to run away and ledge grab, but because unlike a life bar in a regular fighting game, % in this game can mean different things for different characters. 100% to a character like bowser is totally different from 100% on a character like jigglypuff. there are more things in this game that determine how long a character can survive like weight, breaks and momentum canceling where as in almost any other fighting game, all they have is the life meter. So can you explain to me why a character like Snake who is at 105% should lose to a character like jigglypuff who is at 100% if a timeout occurs when it so clear that the jigglypuff is closer to dying than the snake? It just doesn't make any sense

I feel that my rule set of determining the winner by the lower amount of ledge grabs instead percentage after the time out will get rid of the problem we have with the old rule set and give players more of an incentive to approach than the old rule set ever did and with a ten minute timer, no match up should go to time unless that is what they were aiming for.

I'm glad that you took the time to make a detailed post, and I can gain back some respect for you. However, I still disagree.

First, not all characters can ledge game, and none can do it as well as MK. The reason is simple: when they fall off, you can steal the ledge from them. This is the reason you will never seen an Olimar planking ftw - if you take that ledge from us, we're gonna be screwed. And so it is with many characters - ledge camping isn't THAT strong of a tactic.

Now, good plankers have a move that makes the ledge a danger zone so that you can't steal it. Pit has his Uair; and Game and Watch has his Nair. The thing with these moves is that their ledge invincibility wears out before the move is over - Pit has about a 10 window frame of invincibility iirc, and G&W's is above 20 - plenty of time for punish.

And then there's MK. He can drop, Uair, Uair, regrab, and cover nearly all of your options unless you have multiple in air jumps, and even then it's ridiculously dangerous because you're fighting MK offstage. I've heard that you can shield DI (this is real?) a Uair towards the ledge, to hog it before he gets there, but then you're just a guy on a ledge against Meta Knight >.>

Tl;dr: Few characters can plank somewhat effectively, but MK is by far the best planker in the game.

Next, unless the timer is already pretty far down or a guy is playing Wario, I rarely see people trying to sit back on a percent lead (Wario cuz o da fawt). Percent leads are not solid enough to bank on if you're trying to win - they're too fragile because in most cases it only takes a couple good reads on your opponents end to even things out. If I'm going to stop attacking, it's going to be because I have a stock lead, plain and simple. The only person that really breaks this habit is MK, but instituting a rule and removing a tenant of the Brawl rule set since its inception just on one character's behalf is a ludicrous suggestion.

Tl;dr: Percent leads are too fragile to try to time with unless the timer is already low.

Finally, you seems to have this notion that it's wrong for some characters to be more resistant to death than others. You are wrong. It really doesn't matter than some characters die later than others - this just makes them a better character for living with. What it doesn't mean is that the rule should be tailored to fit that. Side note: characters in SSFIV have different vitality levels too, you just don't see them in numbers. This means that two characters at half life gauge have different amounts of life left, but that doesn't matter. It's not just Brawl that acts this way. Not part of my argument, just sayin.

Tl;dr: Characters living longer than others doesn't matter; it just means that characters that die earlier have to work harder to get stocks off and have a reason to be cautious on their last stock.

Ten minute timer isn't addressed in this post. That's because the two issues are different. Your rule is bad; 10 min timer is discussable.

 

[DMG]

Quite a few characters can easily drop stuff into you if you plank, and you can't avoid it because there are walls.

Speaking of pikachu, if you planking him he will just jump over the ledge and thunder which doesn't put him in an awful position like it would on other stages.

Snake will just drop explosives on you and if the any of the blocks are active you will get spiked.

Why would planking even be an issue if you haven't fixed mks planking on every stage in the game? If its already okay, big deal a couple of other characters can do it. There is barely any risk involved attacking someone planking in the pit. If you mess up 20 times and they mess up once, they die and you live.

BPC I think the slope actually makes pikachu's cg less percent dependant, which is apparently some issue?


Also, this isn't Mario Kart, the ruleset is supposed to favor the person that is winning.

For Thunder actually, you could just Upb to the edge and then do a ledge action like stand up. Pika will still be lagging, and you can go back to the edge. Pika might have a better shot at trying to steal the edge because he can Upb quick to it, and if the first "prong" doesn't work shoot another direction like to the other edge. Thunderjolt also isn't a great idea because you have 2 edges to pick from. TJ would only travel along 1 wall, and won't stop someone else going to the other edge.

Snake lol. The blocks hurt him more than they help him. C4 is nearly useless if it gets stuck on a block, and grenades can't drop down and do anything if they are in the way. The plankers that would cause problems on this stage (Marth and mostly G&W) have ways around it like abusing invincibility in their Upb's. Most of the time, when the person is planking, the blocks will be destroyed from either the person trying to stop them or the planker using aerials to cover the edge.

It doesn't matter how safe the non planker is, what matters is how safe the planker is. It doesn't matter if you can drop 100 projectiles down there for free if none of them are realistically gonna hit. He gets the lead, and goes there. YAY you don't take any damage, but he doesn't either. Hence he wins on time, hence the whole idea behind planking; protecting your lead safely regardless of what the opponent chooses to do.

 

[Tesh]

Planking doesn't work in 1 stock matches with food on high.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I'm glad that you took the time to make a detailed post, and I can gain back some respect for you. However, I still disagree.

First, not all characters can ledge game, and none can do it as well as MK. The reason is simple: when they fall off, you can steal the ledge from them. This is the reason you will never seen an Olimar planking ftw - if you take that ledge from us, we're gonna be screwed. And so it is with many characters - ledge camping isn't THAT strong of a tactic.

Now, good plankers have a move that makes the ledge a danger zone so that you can't steal it. Pit has his Uair; and Game and Watch has his Nair. The thing with these moves is that their ledge invincibility wears out before the move is over - Pit has about a 10 window frame of invincibility iirc, and G&W's is above 20 - plenty of time for punish.

And then there's MK. He can drop, Uair, Uair, regrab, and cover nearly all of your options unless you have multiple in air jumps, and even then it's ridiculously dangerous because you're fighting MK offstage. I've heard that you can shield DI (this is real?) a Uair towards the ledge, to hog it before he gets there, but then you're just a guy on a ledge against Meta Knight >.>

Tl;dr: Few characters can plank somewhat effectively, but MK is by far the best planker in the game.

Next, unless the timer is already pretty far down or a guy is playing Wario, I rarely see people trying to sit back on a percent lead (Wario cuz o da fawt). Percent leads are not solid enough to bank on if you're trying to win - they're too fragile because in most cases it only takes a couple good reads on your opponents end to even things out. If I'm going to stop attacking, it's going to be because I have a stock lead, plain and simple. The only person that really breaks this habit is MK, but instituting a rule and removing a tenant of the Brawl rule set since its inception just on one character's behalf is a ludicrous suggestion.

Tl;dr: Percent leads are too fragile to try to time with unless the timer is already low.

Finally, you seems to have this notion that it's wrong for some characters to be more resistant to death than others. You are wrong. It really doesn't matter than some characters die later than others - this just makes them a better character for living with. What it doesn't mean is that the rule should be tailored to fit that. Side note: characters in SSFIV have different vitality levels too, you just don't see them in numbers. This means that two characters at half life gauge have different amounts of life left, but that doesn't matter. It's not just Brawl that acts this way. Not part of my argument, just sayin.

Tl;dr: Characters living longer than others doesn't matter; it just means that characters that die earlier have to work harder to get stocks off and have a reason to be cautious on their last stock.

Ten minute timer isn't addressed in this post. That's because the two issues are different. Your rule is bad; 10 min timer is discussable.

This is what I do not understand though; if these characters do not have a great ledge game and it is a bad place for them to be, why doesn't the opponent take this advantage that he has and try to go after the character on the ledge. It seems to me that if a character is put at a disadvantage in a certain spot,(exp: marth being above you) the smartest thing to do would be to take advantage of that situation when ever it comes around. The thing is that these characters still have the advantage because unlike their opponents, They are not in a position in which they can be hit by a direct attack. I have seen Olimars U-air when they are on the ledge and rack up a lot of damage on opponents with that attack. It also seems to me that if your character is put in a bad situation, you are going to do what ever it takes to get out of that situation. So why would you go for another regrab if you are trying to get out of this bad situation and not reset it?

to your second response Since me and you have a do not agree with the how powerful ledge grabs can be, we are not going to agree on this either

and to your final response in a fighting game, the meter sets how much life you have. This means that if you have a quarter more life than your opponent, nobody is going to argue with the fact that you won because both of you went in to the match knowing how much damage your attacks are capable of and how much damage your character can take. The same thing cannot be said for brawl though since in this game, you can basically live forever as long as you don't get hit by a move that has high knock back.what I am basically saying is that a life bar can not be compared to percentage when considering a time out and the differences in percentages should not be used to determine the winner of a match because sometimes the differences in percent make it so that the loss is unjustifiable.

 

[-Vocal-]

This is what I do not understand though; if these characters do not have a great ledge game and it is a bad place for them to be, why doesn't the opponent take this advantage that he has and try to go after the character on the ledge. It seems to me that if a character is put at a disadvantage in a certain spot,(exp: marth being above you) the smartest thing to do would be to take advantage of that situation when ever it comes around. The thing is that these characters still have the advantage because unlike their opponents, They are not in a position in which they can be hit by a direct attack. I have seen Olimars U-air when they are on the ledge and rack up a lot of damage on opponents with that attack. It also seems to me that if your character is put in a bad situation, you are going to do what ever it takes to get out of that situation. So why would you go for another regrab if you are trying to get out of this bad situation and not reset it?

to your second response Since me and you have a do not agree with the how powerful ledge grabs can be, we are not going to agree on this either

and to your final response in a fighting game, the meter sets how much life you have. This means that if you have a quarter more life than your opponent, nobody is going to argue with the fact that you won because both of you went in to the match knowing how much damage your attacks are capable of and how much damage your character can take. The same thing cannot be said for brawl though since in this game, you can basically live forever as long as you don't get hit by a move that has high knock back.what I am basically saying is that a life bar can not be compared to percentage when considering a time out and the differences in percentages should not be used to determine the winner of a match because sometimes the differences in percent make it so that the loss is unjustifiable.

I disagree, again

These characters CAN be hit with direct attacks - their invincibility wears off before they can regrab the ledge. G&W could Dtilt them. Snake could throw grenades. Pit could DA. Olimar can grab (<3). ZSS can Dsmash. The list goes on.

And Olimar Uairing on a ledge is NEVER to plank. We use it to rack damage and get people out of our face if an opponent doesn't know better not to stand so close to the edge (good opponents do), but all other times we're using it to be unpredictable to an extent. If we always thought "leave ledge now GO!" then we'd get killed every time. If we drop and Uair, it covers our back if someone tries to come after us. We keep doing it indefinitely and the opponent is going to figure a way around it - attack, ledgehog, varies with the character. Oli is not a good planker, at least against good characters.

And you are WRONG about fighting games - I just told you! If you hit both Chun Li and Zangief with a Hadoken, Chun Li is going to have less life bar than Zangief, true facts. Meaning that Chun Li at half bar is closer to death than Zangief at half bar, but if she has 51% bar and Zangief has 50% when the timer runs out, she wins. Less health, closer to death, but she wins because she was closer to the best status, that being full bar - in Brawl, this is 0%.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i really like the way vocal vocalised that.

lol cwutididthar?

but yea, that was a really good way to describe that.

 

[Tesh]

Someone should just hack brawl so that avoiding combat for a few seconds completely refills health just like Call of Duty. Then we would have a real game.

 

[-Vocal-]

i really like the way vocal vocalised that.

lol cwutididthar?

but yea, that was a really good way to describe that.

Tee hee

Random fact: everywhere that my preferred name is taken (Vocal) I either add dashes (like here on SWF) OR I instead name myself Vocalyze

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I disagree, again

These characters CAN be hit with direct attacks - their invincibility wears off before they can regrab the ledge. G&W could Dtilt them. Snake could throw grenades. Pit could DA. Olimar can grab (<3). ZSS can Dsmash. The list goes on.

And Olimar Uairing on a ledge is NEVER to plank. We use it to rack damage and get people out of our face if an opponent doesn't know better not to stand so close to the edge (good opponents do), but all other times we're using it to be unpredictable to an extent. If we always thought "leave ledge now GO!" then we'd get killed every time. If we drop and Uair, it covers our back if someone tries to come after us. We keep doing it indefinitely and the opponent is going to figure a way around it - attack, ledgehog, varies with the character. Oli is not a good planker, at least against good characters.

And you are WRONG about fighting games - I just told you! If you hit both Chun Li and Zangief with a Hadoken, Chun Li is going to have less life bar than Zangief, true facts. Meaning that Chun Li at half bar is closer to death than Zangief at half bar, but if she has 51% bar and Zangief has 50% when the timer runs out, she wins. Less health, closer to death, but she wins because she was closer to the best status, that being full bar - in Brawl, this is 0%.

This is all true but, when you have players that actually know what they are doing on the ledge, they can make it so that they grab the ledge just before there body goes above the ledge. Your character ledge snaps and becomes invincible without having to expose any of his hurt boxes. What this does is that it makes it so that you grab on to the ledge without getting hit by any ground attacks and when done right, it makes it so that the only way that your opponent can hit you is by jumping out there to get you or by getting closer(risking a surprise F-air to the face).

If characters were truly at a disadvantage on the ledge they would do what ever they could to get out of there. I know that if I am on a platform against a character with a good U-air, I am going to do what ever it takes to get off that ledge and back on the ground since it is a bad position for me and the player is going to do what ever it takes to keep me on that ledge and in the air. This is not the case when you are on the ledge though since an opponent that has to approach you on the ledge is sometimes put at more of a risk than the player holding on to the ledge.

I think that you are confusing being at a disadvantage on the ledge with being at a disadvantage while trying to get back in to the stage while on the ledge which are two completely different things. A player is put at a risk for trying to get back on the stage but that is a reward their opponent earned for putting them on the ledge. By not establishing a ledge grab limit you basically remove this reward system of punishing their opponents for their bad options while trying to get back on stage. You and me may not agree on the huge advantages that there are to ledge grabbing but I hope you can at least learn something from what I posted.

I also what to point out at the fact that a life bar means once you reach 0, you are dead whereas with% you can reach 999% and theoretically still live. So timeouts by life bar are legit while timeouts by percent are not

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im upset that more than half of the post above this one is countered by the quote that is already in said post.

EDIT
my mistake, I read it again, and EVERYTHING in that post is countered by the post that he quoted.

 

[-Vocal-]

This is all true but, when you have players that actually know what they are doing on the ledge, they can make it so that they grab the ledge just before there body goes above the ledge. Your character ledge snaps and becomes invincible without having to expose any of his hurt boxes. What this does is that it makes it so that you grab on to the ledge without getting hit by any ground attacks and when done right, it makes it so that the only way that your opponent can hit you is by jumping out there to get you or by getting closer(risking a surprise F-air to the face).

If characters were truly at a disadvantage on the ledge they would do what ever they could to get out of there. I know that if I am on a platform against a character with a good U-air, I am going to do what ever it takes to get off that ledge and back on the ground since it is a bad position for me and the player is going to do what ever it takes to keep me on that ledge and in the air. This is not the case when you are on the ledge though since an opponent that has to approach you on the ledge is sometimes put at more of a risk than the player holding on to the ledge.

I think that you are confusing being at a disadvantage on the ledge with being at a disadvantage while trying to get back in to the stage while on the ledge which are two completely different things. A player is put at a risk for trying to get back on the stage but that is a reward their opponent earned for putting them on the ledge. By not establishing a ledge grab limit you basically remove this reward system of punishing their opponents for their bad options while trying to get back on stage. You and me may not agree on the huge advantages that there are to ledge grabbing but I hope you can at least learn something from what I posted.

I also what to point out at the fact that a life bar means once you reach 0, you are dead whereas with% you can reach 999% and theoretically still live. So timeouts by life bar are legit while timeouts by percent are not

Im upset that more than half of the post above this one is countered by the quote that is already in said post.

EDIT
my mistake, I read it again, and EVERYTHING in that post is countered by the post that he quoted.

^This guy said it.

If you don't have a projectile or a good disjointed attack that hits downwards, then oh well. Let's look at the top tier:

MK: LOL i'd love to see someone plank MK
Snake: Nades, C4, even Nikita timed properly
Diddy: Nana z-drop
Falco: Pretty sure his Fsmash is disjointed enough, not sure about Ftilt and Dtilt
Ice Climbers: well timed ice blocks (though fighting plankers isn't their strong suit)
Marth: If they plank long enough, that huge disjointed sword will make them regret it
Wario: Not sure what he does about plankers actually
DDD: He's got mid-air jumps - he'd prob go for a stage spike, Ftilt if they're not being careful about how high they rise
Pikachu: PikaCHU, PikaCHU, PIKA! (Jolt and Thunder)
Olimar: I can grab people from below the ledge

So those are the top ten, and most of them have ways to deal with plankers. If people are covering the ledge so it can't be hogged, they're in range. If they're dropping down, they can get ledge-hogged (not to mention several of these characters can still hit them down there).

And I didn't mean that the ledge was always a bad place to be in. I meant it's a bad spot to stay in indefinitely, because if you give them long enough good characters will punish you for it. Pit and G&W don't have moves that are short enough to allow them to regrab the ledge before their invincibility runs out and cover the area at the same time. That's why MK is the best planker - you can stop the other two. Sure, some characters have problems with it, but people also have problems with Nado, lasers, pivot grabs, chain grabs, air camping, etc.