Official BBR Recommended Rule Set 3.1

[-LzR-]

Well those options you listed are just theoretical options. You can hit anyone with anything if they don't shield too. You must remember that META KNIGHT doesn't give a **** about some nanners flying all over the place, he can dodge them.

Offtopic: I just realized we both have these lines around our names. Yay for the great humanity.

 

[da K.I.D.]

wario. if he sees an opening, he runs offstage and farts on you.GG

 

[SaveMeJebus]

^This guy said it.

If you don't have a projectile or a good disjointed attack that hits downwards, then oh well. Let's look at the top tier:

MK: LOL i'd love to see someone plank MK
Snake: Nades, C4, even Nikita timed properly
Diddy: Nana z-drop
Falco: Pretty sure his Fsmash is disjointed enough, not sure about Ftilt and Dtilt
Ice Climbers: well timed ice blocks (though fighting plankers isn't their strong suit)
Marth: If they plank long enough, that huge disjointed sword will make them regret it
Wario: Not sure what he does about plankers actually
DDD: He's got mid-air jumps - he'd prob go for a stage spike, Ftilt if they're not being careful about how high they rise
Pikachu: PikaCHU, PikaCHU, PIKA! (Jolt and Thunder)
Olimar: I can grab people from below the ledge

So those are the top ten, and most of them have ways to deal with plankers. If people are covering the ledge so it can't be hogged, they're in range. If they're dropping down, they can get ledge-hogged (not to mention several of these characters can still hit them down there).

And I didn't mean that the ledge was always a bad place to be in. I meant it's a bad spot to stay in indefinitely, because if you give them long enough good characters will punish you for it. Pit and G&W don't have moves that are short enough to allow them to regrab the ledge before their invincibility runs out and cover the area at the same time. That's why MK is the best planker - you can stop the other two. Sure, some characters have problems with it, but people also have problems with Nado, lasers, pivot grabs, chain grabs, air camping, etc.

None of the options you mentioned above actually do anything to stop ledge grabbing as most of the options you mentioned above give the ledge grabber enough time to get back up on the stage and punish the other player for doing some dumb laggy attack on stage.

MK: this is the only one I kind of agree with but I still think that It might be somewhat risky.
Snake: suggesting the Nikita missile made me laugh. all the opponent has to do once you use the missile is air dodge it and punish you for going for such a stupid option . If this truly worked, we would see Ally or Razor use this move to hit all the people grabbing the ledge. C4 gives the opponent more than enough time to get off the ledge before it detonates and puts snake in a bad position(above his opponent). Grenades won't work since all you have to do when your opponent pulls one out is jump back on stage. Holding a grenade limits snake to only his B attacks.
Diddy: nana Z drop gets caught and thrown away faster than didy kong can pick up a banana to punish his opponents actions. Its a bad Idea.
Falco: His F-smash will not be able to hit an opponent that knows how to edge grab and make it so that they snap the ledge. Neither will any attack that falco does on-stage.
Ice climbers: their projectile is probably the only projectile that can successfully stop characters that know how to ledge grab because they throw two projectiles instead of one. They are however skrewed against characters with multiple jumps that play on the ledge.
Marth: has the same problem as Falco.
Wario: has the same problem as Diddy kong except his tires suck way more as they are harder to take out.
Pikachu: his projectile is good but, vary slow. by the time the second jolt comes, the opponent will be on stage and ready to punish you
Olimar: his grab has the same problems as Falco's and marth's F-smash.

These options you gave are really bad(even though some of these are the only options that these characters have other than jumping off the stage) and do not work when done on a player that knows what he is doing.

 

[Spelt]

wario WAH WAH WAH's at plankers

 

[da K.I.D.]

jebus, id like to note that most of the counter points you mentioned, involved GETTING OFF THE LEDGE AND BACK ONSTAGE which is exactly what we are trying to do to begin with.

You saying that certain moves dont stop planking because the character can get off the ledge and back on stage is ********.

DOING THINGS TO GET PEOPLE OFF THE LEDGE AND BACK ON STAGE IS EXACTLY WHAT STOPS PLANKING.

 

[-Vocal-]

jebus, id like to note that most of the counter points you mentioned, involved GETTING OFF THE LEDGE AND BACK ONSTAGE which is exactly what we are trying to do to begin with.

You saying that certain moves dont stop planking because the character can get off the ledge and back on stage is ********.

DOING THINGS TO GET PEOPLE OFF THE LEDGE AND BACK ON STAGE IS EXACTLY WHAT STOPS PLANKING.

This. No other way to put it. You wanna QQ cuz you can't made it a bad position for them, but you can get them off of it. Enough of this LEDGES R BROAKYN stuff.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

jebus, id like to note that most of the counter points you mentioned, involved GETTING OFF THE LEDGE AND BACK ONSTAGE which is exactly what we are trying to do to begin with.

You saying that certain moves dont stop planking because the character can get off the ledge and back on stage is ********.

DOING THINGS TO GET PEOPLE OFF THE LEDGE AND BACK ON STAGE IS EXACTLY WHAT STOPS PLANKING.

That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that by going for these dumb options, you are basically giving them a free chance to get back up on stage. Players wait for these stupid choices from their opponents not only to get back up on stage but also to get free damage. This means that if they never go for these choices, the opponent will stay on the ledge until you go for something. It is vary clear who has the advantage here especially with the current rule set that rewards players for running away when they have the percent lead.

 

[John12346]

A lot of people have misconceptions about GaW's and Pit's planking. They have to move their hurtboxes above the ledge in order for the attack to reach you(Pit raises his hand all the way into the air to twirl his blades; GaW has to hold up his fishbowl by putting his hands into the air)

Viola Marth, Falco, and Olimar(who can just as easily use Fsmash) all have ways to stop planking. Diddy's nanerz go through attacks, so he can stop all attempts at planking. Wario can just throw his whole freaking bike off the stage, and grab the ledge right afterwards as the opponent attempts to manuever around it.

 

[-Vocal-]

A lot of people have misconceptions about GaW's and Pit's planking. They have to move their hurtboxes above the ledge in order for the attack to reach you(Pit raises his hand all the way into the air to twirl his blades; GaW has to hold up his fishbowl by putting his hands into the air)

Viola Marth, Falco, and Olimar(who can just as easily use Fsmash) all have ways to stop planking. Diddy's nanerz go through attacks, so he can stop all attempts at planking. Wario can just throw his whole freaking bike off the stage, and grab the ledge right afterwards as the opponent attempts to manuever around it.

I just said all of this lol, but hopefully he hears you this time

 

[AvaricePanda]

The ledge is a good position for a few characters. Oh well. You shouldn't put a rule to restrict it because it isn't broken (except arguably in the case of MK but I dunno).

Being under your opponent is a good position for most characters. Being in the middle of the stage is a good position for most characters. Being towards the inside of the stage with your opponent outside towards the edge is a good position for most characters. We shouldn't put rules to restrict that.

Also, I don't think anyone's addressed the core problem of your suggested ruleset change. You seem to be suggesting that the only way to time characters out is through ledgegrabs, so at the end of the match the player with the higher ledge grabs loses. However, this is silly and untrue for many match-ups.

Take Diddy vs. Wario—this is a match-up that often goes to 6-7 minutes without either character intending to time out the other. I've accidentally timed out a Wario, and a Wario's accidentally timed out me. It's just a more defensive match-up and it takes longer. With your rule of higher ledge grab limits losing, in the case of a time out the loser of this match would be for all intents and purposes randomly chosen, since neither characters has good ledge games or good timing out with ledge games. Whoever has the most ledgegrabs in this match-up would either be whoever was pressured at the ledge more (or realistically just Diddy, since Wario's side B and aerial DI give him safer landings on the stage).

Any match-up that takes a long time suffers from this rule. Diddy vs. Sonic, Diddy vs. Luigi, Diddy vs. Peach sometimes, Diddy vs. Toon Link (who actually has a legitimate ledge game so I can attempt to time him out knowing he'll have more ledge grabs than me)—and that's only Diddy. Tons of match-ups in this game take over 6-7 minutes when neither character is attempting to time each other out, and without a win by % ruling at the end, the victor is chosen from a random, unfair reason.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The ledge is a good position for a few characters. Oh well. You shouldn't put a rule to restrict it because it isn't broken (except arguably in the case of MK but I dunno).

Being under your opponent is a good position for most characters. Being in the middle of the stage is a good position for most characters. Being towards the inside of the stage with your opponent outside towards the edge is a good position for most characters. We shouldn't put rules to restrict that.

Also, I don't think anyone's addressed the core problem of your suggested ruleset change. You seem to be suggesting that the only way to time characters out is through ledgegrabs, so at the end of the match the player with the higher ledge grabs loses. However, this is silly and untrue for many match-ups.

Take Diddy vs. Wario—this is a match-up that often goes to 6-7 minutes without either character intending to time out the other. I've accidentally timed out a Wario, and a Wario's accidentally timed out me. It's just a more defensive match-up and it takes longer. With your rule of higher ledge grab limits losing, in the case of a time out the loser of this match would be for all intents and purposes randomly chosen, since neither characters has good ledge games or good timing out with ledge games. Whoever has the most ledgegrabs in this match-up would either be whoever was pressured at the ledge more (or realistically just Diddy, since Wario's side B and aerial DI give him safer landings on the stage).

Any match-up that takes a long time suffers from this rule. Diddy vs. Sonic, Diddy vs. Luigi, Diddy vs. Peach sometimes, Diddy vs. Toon Link (who actually has a legitimate ledge game so I can attempt to time him out knowing he'll have more ledge grabs than me)—and that's only Diddy. Tons of match-ups in this game take over 6-7 minutes when neither character is attempting to time each other out, and without a win by % ruling at the end, the victor is chosen from a random, unfair reason.

My rule set has a 10 min timer so those matches should be able to end on time

 

[AvaricePanda]

"should"

And if they don't? Somebody loses randomly because they happened to grab the ledge more times.

Even if a character was trying to time another out, this is still a problem. Say Wario tries to time me out as Diddy using air camping on like Pokemon Stadium 1, and I lose because I happened to grab the ledge more times? You're still assuming that the only way someone can time out another character is by grabbing the ledge more times, and this is simply not the case.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The best way to handle a time-out tie is with a 1-minute coin match.

 

[BSP]

It'd be cool if Brawl had the awards melee gave you at the end of a match. That way we'd see who's the true coward and opportunist

 

[sunshade]

Grabbing the ledge is a fundamental part of the game in the same way jumping and walking are. If you are going to say that grabbing the ledge more than your opponent makes you less deserving of the win then so is being in the air more or standing on the ground more.

If you want a tournament to have a ledge grab limit the only justifiable reason is to make the matches more interesting. It does not make sense competitively, or logically, but it makes sense socially and financially.

 

[-Vocal-]

The best way to handle a time-out tie is with a 1-minute coin match.

WHY DID WE NOT THINK OF THIS SOONER!!!!

SfP for President of Brawlmerica

 

[*_Echo_*]

luigis + yoshis Melee = olimar ****

and i love the new avatar pic vocal im watchn avatar now :D

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think that I finally have a time out rule that everyone can agree on. First we set the timer to 10 minutes. In case of a time out, the winner will be determined these three things: stock(or if both players have the same stock, then percentage lead), air time(winner of this is determined by the player with the lowest air time) and total damage given. the player that gets two out of three points will be declared the winner of the time out. The reason why I think that this rule set works is because it is fair to all types of play and only rewards the player that clearly can outplay the other.

Here are the reasons why I feel my new time out system is better than the old one. The old system rewarded players who ran away after they got the percent lead by handing them the win when they got the time out. With my rule set, players are going to have to do more than get the lead and run away in order to earn that win when the game goes to time. This is because of the way the rule was built. With my rule set, when you have the lead, you can pretty much play any way you want. If you want to continue to approach, my rule set isn't stopping you from doing so. If you want to run away and go for the time out, you can do so. The reason why this tactic is not so powerful now is because the two rules,(percentage lead and lowest air time) basically cancel each other out. so basically, you can run around and play"gay" all you want as long as you have the lead.

In order for this rule set to work though there has to be a tie breaker. So this is why I added it the total damage given rule where the winner of this point is determined by the player who has done the most total or overall damage to the opponent. I feel this balances the entire rule set nicely since there are those players that run away after they get the stock lead; you get them with a few projectiles here, a few weak hits there, get them all the way up to 150% damage and yet it is impossible to get the kill because of the way they are playing. This rule set will reward you for going after the opponent and racking up more overall damage than your opponent did when the timer goes out. This also settles those matches that are somehow won with only one percent lead.

I truly feel that this time out rule is overall better than the current rule that we have now. It does not hurt or buff any characters or type of players because it always has at least one benefit to every style of play.

 

[-Vocal-]

I think that I finally have a time out rule that everyone can agree on. First we set the timer to 10 minutes. In case of a time out, the winner will be determined these three things: stock(or if both players have the same stock, then percentage lead), air time(winner of this is determined by the player with the lowest air time) and total damage given. the player that gets two out of three points will be declared the winner of the time out. The reason why I think that this rule set works is because it is fair to all types of play and only rewards the player that clearly can outplay the other.

Here are the reasons why I feel my new time out system is better than the old one. The old system rewarded players who ran away after they got the percent lead by handing them the win when they got the time out. With my rule set, players are going to have to do more than get the lead and run away in order to earn that win when the game goes to time. This is because of the way the rule was built. With my rule set, when you have the lead, you can pretty much play any way you want. If you want to continue to approach, my rule set isn't stopping you from doing so. If you want to run away and go for the time out, you can do so. The reason why this tactic is not so powerful now is because the two rules,(percentage lead and lowest air time) basically cancel each other out. so basically, you can run around and play"gay" all you want as long as you have the lead.

In order for this rule set to work though there has to be a tie breaker. So this is why I added it the total damage given rule where the winner of this point is determined by the player who has done the most total or overall damage to the opponent. I feel this balances the entire rule set nicely since there are those players that run away after they get the stock lead; you get them with a few projectiles here, a few weak hits there, get them all the way up to 150% damage and yet it is impossible to get the kill because of the way they are playing. This rule set will reward you for going after the opponent and racking up more overall damage than your opponent did when the timer goes out. This also settles those matches that are somehow won with only one percent lead.

I truly feel that this time out rule is overall better than the current rule that we have now. It does not hurt or buff any characters or type of players because it always has at least one benefit to every style of play.

I kinda can't look over this right now, but damage given and air time? Sounds like DDD could lose time outs. idk, gotta read it more later

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im not gonna lie, I read it over real quick, and its actually not quite as fail as the rest of the stuff hes been proposing.

 

[Luxor]

If an MK times out a Snake in that ruleset, MK could still very well win because he takes less damage and deals more- even though Snake's weight makes that a non-issue. I don't really like how restricting air time in timeouts hurts Wario either.

 

[-Vocal-]

If an MK times out a Snake in that ruleset, MK could still very well win because he takes less damage and deals more- even though Snake's weight makes that a non-issue. I don't really like how restricting air time in timeouts hurts Wario either.

This is what I was getting at earlier; just replace DDD with Snake. Still can't read it in depth, packin for school

 

[Raziek]

It's less ******** than some of the other suggestions he has given, but it's still a needlessly complex rule targetting MK.

I'd rather just see him banned than create all these rules against him.

 

[Luxor]

Not to mention that with Jebus' latest ruleset, you can still win by hitting once and running for 9:59 lol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

It's less ******** than some of the other suggestions he has given, but it's still a needlessly complex rule targetting MK.

I'd rather just see him banned than create all these rules against him.

my thoughts, EXACTLY

 

[-LzR-]

Not to mention that with Jebus' latest ruleset, you can still win by hitting once and running for 9:59 lol.

Exactly, the same flaw, just a character based way to exploit it. If you are a ground char, you will timeout, if you aren't , gg.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Anytime you have a timer, time outs will be possible, it's unavoidable. And I think the option to time out should be there. The thing is making sure it's in a way that is not gamebreaking like planking appears to be.

It kind of feels like the E tier has been shoved to one side. They are either clearly too good to be in low tier tournaments, yet end up being not viable enough in regular tournaments. They just exist...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think that I finally have a time out rule that everyone can agree on. First we set the timer to 10 minutes. In case of a time out, the winner will be determined these three things: stock(or if both players have the same stock, then percentage lead), air time(winner of this is determined by the player with the lowest air time) and total damage given. the player that gets two out of three points will be declared the winner of the time out. The reason why I think that this rule set works is because it is fair to all types of play and only rewards the player that clearly can outplay the other.

Here are the reasons why I feel my new time out system is better than the old one. The old system rewarded players who ran away after they got the percent lead by handing them the win when they got the time out. With my rule set, players are going to have to do more than get the lead and run away in order to earn that win when the game goes to time. This is because of the way the rule was built. With my rule set, when you have the lead, you can pretty much play any way you want. If you want to continue to approach, my rule set isn't stopping you from doing so. If you want to run away and go for the time out, you can do so. The reason why this tactic is not so powerful now is because the two rules,(percentage lead and lowest air time) basically cancel each other out. so basically, you can run around and play"gay" all you want as long as you have the lead.

In order for this rule set to work though there has to be a tie breaker. So this is why I added it the total damage given rule where the winner of this point is determined by the player who has done the most total or overall damage to the opponent. I feel this balances the entire rule set nicely since there are those players that run away after they get the stock lead; you get them with a few projectiles here, a few weak hits there, get them all the way up to 150% damage and yet it is impossible to get the kill because of the way they are playing. This rule set will reward you for going after the opponent and racking up more overall damage than your opponent did when the timer goes out. This also settles those matches that are somehow won with only one percent lead.

I truly feel that this time out rule is overall better than the current rule that we have now. It does not hurt or buff any characters or type of players because it always has at least one benefit to every style of play.

The rule set above is kind of flawed by the fact that many characters could still ledge grab once they got the percent lead. So I am going to make some changes in the point system. The point system will now be three out of five. The winner of the time out will be determined by these four things: Overall damage given in the match, total air time, percentage lead and stock lead (percentage lead will give you one point and stock lead will give you 2 points), and total amount of ledge grabs.

A player gets one point for having more overall damage than the opponent. the second way to get a point is by having less air time than the opponent. You may think that this limits characters that only play in the air but, if you have the lead, you have nothing to worry about since you will be getting a point for that and you will basically break even. These two basically cancel each other out as long as you have the lead. the third way to get points is by having the percent lead or the stock lead. You get one point for having the percent lead and 2 points for having the stock lead.and the last way to get a point is to have less ledge grabs than the opponent.

This rule should't really effect anybody's play style since ten minutes is more than enough time to finish an entire match unless the time out is what you guys were aiming for from the beginning.

 

[Raziek]

I didn't read the whole post, but the last line tells me that you still don't understand a crucial concept:

Timing out IS A VALID STRATEGY.

You can, and should be able to go into every match with the intent to time it out if that is how you choose to play.

You ARE allowed to aim for it from the beginning, is what I am saying.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I didn't read the whole post, but the last line tells me that you still don't understand a crucial concept:

Timing out IS A VALID STRATEGY.

You can, and should be able to go into every match with the intent to time it out if that is how you choose to play.

You ARE allowed to aim for it from the beginning, is what I am saying.

I never said it was not a valid strategy. My rule set does not punish you for going for the time out. I just said that ten minutes is more than enough time to finish a match unless you want to go for the time out.

 

[-LzR-]

Matches don't end on timeouts if they don't try to timeout.

 

[sunshade]

I actually really like your revised 3/5 time out rule. I most of all like that stock lead is a 2 point advantage because it makes it so if you kill someone it does not go back to even. The only issue I see is that at the beginning aerial based characters are going to be slightly more forced to approach than aerial characters but that is only a minor complaint. Over all I think its a good suggestion.

I am however curious as to what your justification for putting in an air and ledge timer is but not a ground timer. The ledge and the air are fundamental parts of the game if they are determinant of if you should lose the time out so is ground time.

 

[John12346]

I've had more than my fair share of matches vs. Toon Link, Wario, and Diddy go to the clock.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I actually really like your revised 3/5 time out rule. I most of all like that stock lead is a 2 point advantage because it makes it so if you kill someone it does not go back to even. The only issue I see is that at the beginning aerial based characters are going to be slightly more forced to approach than aerial characters but that is only a minor complaint. Over all I think its a good suggestion.

I am however curious as to what your justification for putting in an air and ledge timer is but not a ground timer. The ledge and the air are fundamental parts of the game if they are determinant of if you should lose the time out so is ground time.

The reason for this is because you can only have either an air time limit or a ground time limit, not both. the reason why time outs occur is because the player is jumping around and grabbing on to ledges. with my rule set players are going to have to work harder for that time out than they did with the old rule set. That's not to say that you can't win by trying to time people though. It just won't be as easy as it was before.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I never said it was not a valid strategy. My rule set does not punish you for going for the time out. I just said that ten minutes is more than enough time to finish a match unless you want to go for the time out.

You didn't say it directly, but you are insinuating it considering you are increasind the timer which would make it more difficult to time an opponent out and then placed a rule based on airtime/groundtime

Time out is a valid strategy, now lets put rules that make it more difficult!
Yeah, no.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You didn't say it directly, but you are insinuating it considering you are increasind the timer which would make it more difficult to time an opponent out and then placed a rule based on airtime/groundtime

Time out is a valid strategy, now lets put rules that make it more difficult!
Yeah, no.

this coming from a sonic main

 

[BSP]

I never said it was not a valid strategy. My rule set does not punish you for going for the time out. I just said that ten minutes is more than enough time to finish a match unless you want to go for the time out.

The reason for this is because you can only have either an air time limit or a ground time limit, not both. the reason why time outs occur is because the player is jumping around and grabbing on to ledges. with my rule set players are going to have to work harder for that time out than they did with the old rule set. That's not to say that you can't win by trying to time people though. It just won't be as easy as it was before.

That is making it harder for people who have the incentive to time out to time out. It's still making a viable option harder.

I'm up for anything at this point, but it sucks that the timer and timeouts are such a big issue in brawl

 

[Spelt]

this coming from a sonic main

Oh so clever.

 

[John12346]

this coming from a sonic main

Exactly, Sonic, among others, is a character who can legitimately go for a timeout. There's also Wario, AFAIK.

And also the fact he's a Sonic main does not invalidate his point in any way; you should know that.

 

[BBQTV]

why not make it 9 minutes?