Official BBR Recommended Rule Set 3.1

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Lol braxton... you just committed the worst of all internet arguing techniques
http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/ob//internet_graphic1.jpg

time to leave the computer for a while

#4. #9 to an extent.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

raziek, just because you are ******** and don't know what the definition of random is does not mean that random **** doesn't happen on these stupid stages.

At BPC, I did not grab the apple it just randomly blew up when I was on the platform

All right, allow me to change my point.

When the tree shakes down apples, you are not safe if you are within the blast radius of an apple's explosion and should act as if the apples ALWAYS explode.

EDIT: Actually, you know what, **** it, you're still using your super tunnel vision to ignore virtually every argument brought against you. Arguing with you has virtually no point because everything that you can't counter, you ignore. Should I assume that the rest of my points are all completely correct? If so, why are you even still arguing?

 

[Luxor]

I have a bunch of videos on my friends Wii where stupid random things have happened to me. Random lava spouts hitting me while I try to recover on Norfair. Apple bombs(which are also random) blowing up in my face and costing me the match on Green greens. Me some how stage spiking my friend on the blocks on rainbow cruise. Are you guys sure you tested these stupid stages?

Random lava spouts hitting me while I try to recover on Norfair.

Random lava spouts hitting me

Random lava spouts

Random

Only scrubs think Norfair is random lol, it's all on timers. There's ranges where events can occur, but you can't call it "random." I t doesn't matter that you hate the stage, learn it and man up. Anyone who gets hit by Norfair hazards outside of being ouplayed by their opponent shouldn't be playing Brawl anyway.
*glares at 99% of the community*

 

[SaveMeJebus]

All right, allow me to change my point.

When the tree shakes down apples, you are not safe if you are within the blast radius of an apple's explosion and should act as if the apples ALWAYS explode.

EDIT: Actually, you know what, **** it, you're still using your super tunnel vision to ignore virtually every argument brought against you. Arguing with you has virtually no point because everything that you can't counter, you ignore. Should I assume that the rest of my points are all completely correct? If so, why are you even still arguing?

tell me what I have not answered? I answered everything that you posted

and who gives a **** if they run on timers. As long as you don't know where they are coming from they are RANDOM.

 

[Spelt]

So what's up guys, 90% of you probably don't care, but Nova Scotia has decided to ban MK. Immediately, we no longer have to deal with 90% of these ******** problems and the arguments surrounding them.

Also, Jebus, just because you're ******** and can't play a stage correctly doesn't mean it's bad.

I got happy.

Anyone who gets hit by Norfair hazards outside of being ouplayed by their opponent shouldn't be playing Brawl anyway.
*glares at 99% of the community*

And then I got sad again.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

tell me what I have not answered? I answered everything that you posted

Oh boy. You really, REALLY had to do this, didn't you.

These are just the examples from my posts over the last page and a half.

YES. YES WE ARE. YOUR REASONING IS ALL INCREDIBLY FAULTY, NONE OF THE THINGS YOU MENTION ARE BANWORTHY, AND ALL YOU HAVE PROVEN IS THAT YOU ARE BAD AT DEALING WITH STAGES AND THAT YOU NEED TO EXPAND YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF SMASH.

You never even tried to respond to this. You responded to one of the examples where I crushed your logic, IIRC, which in turn got completely destroyed and/or is an age-old cookie-cutter argument that has been countered god knows how often.

You know what's funny? We (the BBR and those of us who advocate a liberal stagelist) did just that. We went to wifi, we went to casual games, and we tested these stages out. We found the typically broken tactics, and we found ways to beat them.

Also, you have it backwards. We never have to prove that a stage is legit. Or at least, we should never have to. It's in the game, therefore it requires strenuous (and constantly accurate; if we think that something makes a stage broken but it is found to be a beatable strategy and no longer overcentralizing, then it is no longer reason to ban the stage) proof to be removed from the game. But that's not to say you guys can't get this proof outside of a tournament setting.

The problem? You haven't. In fact, we've worked backwards. We did what you wouldn't (should've) and tested these stages in high-level "casual" play. And we found nothing wrong with them, or at least not enough to warrant a ban. Like the common belief that you can circle camp on Distant Planet-proven wrong. Or the belief that PTAD is random. PROVEN WRONG. Or the belief that you can CG almost the whole cast up YI(M)'s right side with DDD-PROVEN WRONG! The claim that walkoff camping on Onett is broken-I'm working on this one, but it will soon be proven wrong, I'm telling you.

And then you bring up bull**** like this? Get out of here. Also, here's a basic issue with your claim. It's not "go to a tournament and waste 10 bucks", it's "go to a tournament, find the error, and automatically win the tournament because we were wrong". If there's a tactic that breaks the stage, why aren't you using it? It's like noticing that a tournament hasn't banned MK's planking, and then saying that you'd go there and waste 10 bucks. No, you'd go there and win the tournament pot easily because you'd abuse the planking, you scrubby idiot!

You reply to THIS post with this:

your the idiot that thinks that if you find one broken thing on a stage, you are automatically going to win the set. It takes at lest two out of three wins to win a set last time I checked.

Which not only doesn't counter the central point in the post, but also counters your own ****ing argument. Now this pisses me off. It really does. I spend time on the post and go through the trouble of writing it up nicely so that even the most ******** person could understand it, given that they can read, but you use your super tunnel vision and do basically the same thing as ignoring it completely. Jebus, at this point you either wise up, or me (and everyone else) puts you on block. You're an idiot who has no idea what he is talking about (like many in this thread), and you haven't posted an educated thought yet.

and who gives a **** if they run on timers. As long as you don't know where they are coming from they are RANDOM.

Did you know that there's a balloon on Smashville that appears completely randomly? Let's ban Smashville. Did you know that tripping is random? Let's ban dashing. Did you know that YI is RANDOM?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10835421&postcount=3 <- Assuming randomness is bad and should be avoided
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10833082&postcount=133 <- Smash is inherently random

Man, do yourself a favor and LEARN HOW TO DEBATE WITHOUT LOOKING LIKE A MORON.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I have a bunch of videos on my friends Wii where stupid random things have happened to me. Random lava spouts hitting me while I try to recover on Norfair. Apple bombs(which are also random) blowing up in my face and costing me the match on Green greens. Me some how stage spiking my friend on the blocks on rainbow cruise. Are you guys sure you tested these stupid stages?

I answered it with this.

lets compare a random harmless balloon to a ****ing stream of lava. Why don't you just compare a pile of **** to an atomic bomb and it should be the players choice if they want to trip since it only effects them not the opponent

 

[-LzR-]

Yes, because your reaction time obviously is over 5 seconds or you cannot even focus on yourself

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I answered it with this.

I responded to it in reasonable detail. Again, an effect that is barely random at all hit you while you were in a terrible position. There is nothing wrong with this; it's akin to Delfino rising just as you start a warlock punch and you dying-you put yourself/let yourself be put in a horrible position (80+ frames of lag) and a semi-random event that you should have been prepared for nailed you . If your opponent had not forced you into this terrible position, you would have been able to dodge the lava spout easily (hell, depending on the situation, it should've been easy anyways! Depending on which character you were using, you almost certainly could've recovered despite the lava, or used the lava to help you get back onstage). It's up to you to know when the spouts are coming, when the lava rises from the bottom, when the walls come, ETC.

If you want to take up the arguments more specifically, the stage discussion forum has been over it about a thousand times.

and lets compare a random harmless balloon to a ****ing stream of lava.

You got gimped by the lava? My PK Thunder hit the balloon and I fell to my ****ing death. Ban Smashville nao plz because I have no idea how to play the stage and am unwilling to adapt to a random event that is either obscenely minor or that I can predict down to the second it appears.

And it should be the players choice if they want to trip since it only effects them not the opponent

OH WELL. THIS IS BRAWL. LIVE WITH IT OR GO PLAY A BETTER COMPETITIVE GAME. Again:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10833082&postcount=133 <- Smash is inherently random
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10835421&postcount=3 <- Against the assumption that randomness is bad and should be avoided


And look, you're doing it again. I tell you you did it on two posts, the latter of which was far more serious, and you reply to which one? The first one. With faulty commentary, I might add.

 

[DMG]

BPC do you play Chess? Cause the first part about that was wrong actually. Being a pawn down entirely depends on the circumstances. For example, there are some gambits that forgo a pawn for faster development, or variations that give a pawn up for some other advantages. Poisoned Pawn variation for example lets Black take on b2, while giving White a few free moves and displacing the Black Queen.

Grandmaster Level chess is mostly draws, a lot of times even when someone is down by a pawn because their position is holdable endgame. Just saying.

Now about random; I don't think you can look at it as yes or no. It's not a good idea to have it completely allowed or removed. However with the tools to remove it, why have it? It's not a question of what the developers intend, because even if we always knew what they intended we as a community don't have to accept it. They "probably" intended for people to fight with their characters, yet I run away from people and time them out. They "probably" didn't intend to give MK the ability to IDC or perfect plank, yet we don't say "Oh well we have to accept it because the developers might have wanted this". We look at each issue and aspect NOT through the eyes of "Did they want this to happen?" but through the eyes of "Do we want this to happen?"

 

[theunabletable]

Me some how stage spiking my friend on the blocks on rainbow cruise.

That doesn't sound random.

Random lava spouts hitting me while I try to recover on Norfair.

And you're positive that there was no way for you to get to a ledge in time while recovering?

And you didn't even respond to what he said about Yoshi's Island. I know it can completely randomly **** Ness's recovery.

Why did you COMPLETELY avoid his point about Yoshi's Island?

I mean I don't want to be a ****, and don't want to seem biased, but, just from an objective point of view looking at this debate, it looks like you just did EXACTLY what he accused you of doing in that very same post, tunnel visioning part of his post and disregarding the rest of it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

BPC do you play Chess? Cause the first part about that was wrong actually. Being a pawn down entirely depends on the circumstances. For example, there are some gambits that forgo a pawn for faster development, or variations that give a pawn up for some other advantages. Poisoned Pawn variation for example lets Black take on b2, while giving White a few free moves and displacing the Black Queen.

Grandmaster Level chess is mostly draws, a lot of times even when someone is down by a pawn because their position is holdable endgame. Just saying.

Nah, I'm just too lazy to amend that post. I don't play chess and shouldn't pretend to know much about it lol.

Now about random; I don't think you can look at it as yes or no. It's not a good idea to have it completely allowed or removed. However with the tools to remove it, why have it? It's not a question of what the developers intend, because even if we always knew what they intended we as a community don't have to accept it. They "probably" intended for people to fight with their characters, yet I run away from people and time them out. They "probably" didn't intend to give MK the ability to IDC or perfect plank, yet we don't say "Oh well we have to accept it because the developers might have wanted this". We look at each issue and aspect NOT through the eyes of "Did they want this to happen?" but through the eyes of "Do we want this to happen?"

We not only don't have the tools to remove it, but removing it as far as possible would gut the game, and what I'm saying is not so much "it's designer intent for smash to be random", and more "predictable randomness is as much a part of smash as aircamping, zoning, boxing, whatever".

That doesn't sound random.

And you're positive that there was no way for you to get to a ledge in time while recovering?

And you didn't even respond to what he said about Yoshi's Island. I know it can completely randomly **** Ness's recovery.

Why did you COMPLETELY avoid his point about Yoshi's Island?

I mean I don't want to be a ****, and don't want to seem biased, but, just from an objective point of view looking at this debate, it looks like you just did EXACTLY what he accused you of doing in that very same post, tunnel visioning part of his post and disregarding the rest of it.

This. Technically the YI point was not mine, but yeah. ****.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I responded to it in reasonable detail. Again, an effect that is barely random at all hit you while you were in a terrible position. There is nothing wrong with this; it's akin to Delfino rising just as you start a warlock punch and you dying-you put yourself/let yourself be put in a horrible position (80+ frames of lag) and a semi-random event that you should have been prepared for nailed you . If your opponent had not forced you into this terrible position, you would have been able to dodge the lava spout easily (hell, depending on the situation, it should've been easy anyways! Depending on which character you were using, you almost certainly could've recovered despite the lava, or used the lava to help you get back onstage). It's up to you to know when the spouts are coming, when the lava rises from the bottom, when the walls come, ETC.

If you want to take up the arguments more specifically, the stage discussion forum has been over it about a thousand times.



You got gimped by the lava? My PK Thunder hit the balloon and I fell to my ****ing death. Ban Smashville nao plz because I have no idea how to play the stage and am unwilling to adapt to a random event that is either obscenely minor or that I can predict down to the second it appears.



OH WELL. THIS IS BRAWL. LIVE WITH IT OR GO PLAY A BETTER COMPETITIVE GAME. Again:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10833082&postcount=133 <- Smash is inherently random
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10835421&postcount=3 <- Against the assumption that randomness is bad and should be avoided


And look, you're doing it again. I tell you you did it on two posts, the latter of which was far more serious, and you reply to which one? The first one. With faulty commentary, I might add.

I don't know what the hell your taking about. you do the same thing to me. Either that or wait until someone changes the subject or posts something first. we as a community, should also try to limit the amount of random stuff that happens in the game. You cannot compare one thing that can happen to two characters in the game randomly to something that can randomly kill every character in the entire cast.

 

[theunabletable]

I don't know what the hell your taking about. you do the same thing to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

we as a community, should also try to limit the amount of random stuff that happens in the game.

So we should get rid of Yoshi's Island, right?

You cannot compare one thing that can happen to two characters in the game randomly to something that can randomly kill every character in the entire cast.

I could add more points about how the hitlag difference due to hitting the balloon could **** over every character randomly; because the balloon appears at random times and in random places. But I won't.

I'll just recommend that we ban Yoshi's Island using your logic.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't know what the hell your taking about. you do the same thing to me. Either that or wait until someone changes the subject or posts something first. we as a community, should also try to limit the amount of random stuff that happens in the game. You cannot compare one thing that can happen to two characters in the game randomly to something that can randomly kill every character in the entire cast.

Okay.

1. You are doing it AGAIN. You are ignoring all points against you and instead just chainging the topic.
2. Examples. Now. One post where I am ignoring important points of yours.
3. Sometimes I get sick of dealing with stupidity. Sorry? And sometimes someone else answers a point that I have trouble with.
4. NO. NO WE SHOULD NOT. GOD DAMMIT GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD. Avoidable randomness is built into smash as a BASIC TENANT OF GAMEPLAY. Tripping. If you dash, you are initiating a random event. Almost every stage is random in some way. Several characters have random elements to their movesets.
5. Sure I can. They're both random. Or do you mean there's a big fat subjective line? Because Norfair almost never stops a smart player from successfully recovering unless his opponent is pressuring him severely-reminds me of several non-random stages I know of. Rainbow cruise comes to mind.

 

[DMG]

Most people don't want to remove it as far as possible, accepting the randomness of the balloon or transformations or the YI Ghost. It's when the random turns into something nasty that people don't want to accept it just because some of the lesser ones are ok. Most of the time, the random aspect is one of the lesser undesirable qualities of a stage. Norfair for example yes it has Lava, but the bigger problem is how the layout negatively affects regular gameplay. Green Greens yes falling blocks suck, but you know what really sucks? The multi edges making planking and scrooging stronger.

Predictable randomness would make it, non-random lol.

I think people incorrectly phrase or overplay their concern about the random aspect. On most stages, sans Pictochat, there is an underlying issue or potential problem that is a greater threat to competitive gameplay than the random aspect. 75M has random aspects, but the main problem is how the layout allows ridiculous circle camping. Mario Bros has random enemies coming out through the pipes, but the problem is how gameplay changes because of other things about the stage (Like how strong throwing the enemies is, regardless of how random they appear).

Most people just extremely dislike the random stage aspects (hence little complaints about characters or moves), and vocalize them as the root of all evil even when there probably is something else that is the bigger threat.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Most people don't want to remove it as far as possible, accepting the randomness of the balloon or transformations or the YI Ghost. It's when the random turns into something nasty that people don't want to accept it just because some of the lesser ones are ok. Most of the time, the random aspect is one of the lesser undesirable qualities of a stage. Norfair for example yes it has Lava, but the bigger problem is how the layout negatively affects regular gameplay.

Wait what? First of all, "regular"? Second of all, WTF are you talking about? What's wrong with the layout?

Green Greens yes falling blocks suck, but you know what really sucks? The multi edges making planking and scrooging stronger.

Obv; the issue with GG never was the randomness. Was it? God this community is ********...

Predictable randomness would make it, non-random lol.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10782522#post10782522

Not really... Like, Raziek can tell you (after the random first flip) how the rest of the flips on Frigate are going to turn out, with a 90% accuracy margin, but it's still random. I can tell you with 99% accuracy (given a minute or two to figure out the pattern) when the lava plumes are coming from behind on Norfair, but I can't tell you exactly where-the best I can do is put myself in a good position to avoid them, which leads to me (get this, this is a big deal!) never getting hit by them unless my opponent pressures/hits me into it (or a very bad position like offstage without my second jump and so low that I can't wait for it to go away with my shoddy recovery)

 

[Raziek]

I don't know what the hell your taking about. you do the same thing to me. Either that or wait until someone changes the subject or posts something first. we as a community, should also try to limit the amount of random stuff that happens in the game. You cannot compare one thing that can happen to two characters in the game randomly to something that can randomly kill every character in the entire cast.

Stop saying it's random, or I will find you, drug you, drag you into the forest, bludgeon you with heavy clubs and leave you bleeding in the moonlight for the wolves to finish off your battered carcass.

AND SERIOUSLY, CAN YOU PLEASE DO BETTER THAN ENGLISH THAT MAKES ME READ YOUR POSTS IN THE VOICE OF THE "I LIKE TURTLES!" KID? It's atrocious and it makes your already ******** attempt at debating look even worse.

You make me want to poop myself.

Edit: Sweet, my guide got linked. Regarding that, I can now accurately predict Frigate AS I play a match. I do it all the time, down to within about 2 seconds.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Show me a video were a character other than ness and lucas got screwed over by a balloon. If I can't match it with a video in which someone gets skrewed by norfair's lava then I will leave this website and never come back.

 

[theunabletable]

Show me a video were a character other than ness and lucas got screwed over by a balloon. If I can't match it with a video in which someone gets skrewed by norfair's lava then I will leave this website and never come back.

omfg I can see why BPC has been getting mad >_>

I'll just quote myself, and try and let you figure it out, I'll use bolded text to help.

I could add more points about how the hitlag difference due to hitting the balloon could **** over every character randomly; because the balloon appears at random times and in random places. But I won't.

I'll just recommend that we ban Yoshi's Island using your logic.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Show me a video were a character other than ness and lucas got screwed over by a balloon. If I can't match it with a video in which someone gets skrewed by norfair's lava then I will leave this website and never come back.

1. Extreme tunnel vision AGAIN; you're ignoring every point against you except for the one on the side that you think that you can counter, that was made obsolete by a much stronger argument and that you don't even understand the basis of in the first place!
2. Mixing the point; there's a big difference between the practical and theoretical implications, and we're saying that if you're against randomness, you either have to ban every stage with a random element or draw a ridiculously subjective line.
3. **** off. You have no idea what you are talking about and are merely polluting this thread, this section, and this forum.

Guys, time to put Jebus on the block list. It goes beyond lack of knowledge, I think this guy is actually just trolling us. How is it even possible to not only be that stupid, but to at the same time not even listen to what anyone else says, completely ignore all evidence against you, and go for the tiny little scraps of "right" you think you can grab, that happen to be horse **** anyways? I think I know how Glenn Beck fans think now.

 

[Raziek]

BPC was just saying that because your argument is almost as ********, considering the Lava on Norfair is on a schedule and you have not Two, but THREE ledges to recover to.

He was illustrating an extreme to prove the inanity of your point.

Obviously getting gimped by the balloon is almost completely unheard of, but the point was that we shouldn't be banning stages simply because they have very minor (yet easily adaptable to, in most cases), random qualities.

Just like we don't ban Norfair because the Plume location is random (Since the timing is predictable and you can compensate through positioning), we don't ban Smashville for the Balloon or YI for the Support Ghost.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

omfg I can see why BPC has been getting mad >_>

I'll just quote myself, and try and let you figure it out, I'll use bolded text to help.

I was talking to BPC. also if you don't wan't me to keep focusing on that stupid things you post, then don't post stupid things.

 

[DMG]

Wait what? First of all, "regular"? Second of all, WTF are you talking about? What's wrong with the layout?



Obv; the issue with GG never was the randomness. Was it? God this community is ********...



http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10782522#post10782522

Not really... Like, Raziek can tell you (after the random first flip) how the rest of the flips on Frigate are going to turn out, with a 90% accuracy margin, but it's still random. I can tell you with 99% accuracy (given a minute or two to figure out the pattern) when the lava plumes are coming from behind on Norfair, but I can't tell you exactly where-the best I can do is put myself in a good position to avoid them, which leads to me (get this, this is a big deal!) never getting hit by them unless my opponent pressures/hits me into it.

Regular as in it strongly favors aerial and planking characters because the stage has many gaps where you have to jump or go airborne to travel, hence the people who can move around the stage the fastest/safest can abuse this to timeout the other guy. Even with "regular" timeouts, Norfair goes past that and exemplifies this kind of gameplay. One example is MK. He can not only plank, but he can abuse Tornado to cross the entire stage with little chance of you punishing him, he can glide under the entire stage and have many different edges to pick from while also retaining the ability to shark, reverse shuttle loop, Tornado back, etc. It's not as bad as stages like Hyrule, but those strategies do grow in strength to pretty bad levels.

Many characters can run laps around the rest of the cast, and it boils down into whoever overall runs the best and who can stop the running the best. Aside from MK being the clear victor, you have a nasty trifecta of Wario, G&W, and Pika running around making hell for anyone else. Give one of those the lead, and I guarantee against 90% of the cast they basically auto win. Marth, Snake, Lucario, Peach, DK, no one realistically would be able to keep up. Falco would do alright, but he would be LOLLLL against planking. Even with champs that don't plank or run too well, the best strat on Norfair is to get the lead and play keep away, and Norfair definitely makes this a bit too easy on the running part.

It may be hard to picture that, not many matches have that occur. But no doubt, the problem is there. I'll start getting in matches with someone super gay like Lee or Gnes to show the community some of this.

 

[theunabletable]

I was talking to BPC.

Oh I see.

Well I'm talking to you.

Wait how were you even talking to BPC?! I'm the only person who's even suggested that the balloon could screw over other characters due to hitlag, I don't recall BPC ever mentioning that.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I was talking to BPC.

Okay now you're just getting pathetic.


I could add more points about how the hitlag difference due to hitting the balloon could **** over every character randomly; because the balloon appears at random times and in random places. But I won't.

I'll just recommend that we ban Yoshi's Island using your logic.

Is that better?

The fact is, if what you say can't stand up to scrutiny from whoever decides to scrutinize it, then it is bad. You can't reserve your theory's ability to be scrutinized to whoever you are currently arguing with (exception: 1v1 debate contests where the goal is figuring out who is more knowledgeable in debating, and on the subject matter at hand; as opposed to this, which is an open debate about what the right thing to do is). Oh and I brought up the YI argument too, YOU JUST IGNORED IT.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Regular as in it strongly favors aerial and planking characters because the stage has many gaps where you have to jump or go airborne to travel, hence the people who can move around the stage the fastest/safest can abuse this to timeout the other guy. Even with "regular" timeouts, Norfair goes past that and exemplifies this kind of gameplay. One example is MK. He can not only plank

<image by kitamerby showing why MK's planking is not broken on norfair, making it one of the only stages in the game where it isn't>

but he can abuse Tornado to cross the entire stage with little chance of you punishing him

I find this part hard to swallow for some reason...

he can glide under the entire stage and have many different edges to pick from while also retaining the ability to shark, reverse shuttle loop, Tornado back, etc. It's not as bad as stages like Hyrule, but those strategies do grow in strength to pretty bad levels.

I'll take your word on this.

Many characters can run laps around the rest of the cast, and it boils down into whoever overall runs the best and who can stop the running the best.

This? Not so much. I've heard horror stories about sonic spinshotting around the top, Falco phantasm->ledgecancelling->ledgegrabbing all over the place... First of all, that seems pretty **** punishable, second of all even if it is "broken" (as in, remotely legit), the stage regularly prevents the stalling strategies by limiting the available space.

EDIT: In case this is clear, the main issue I have with everything you're listing here is broken is the temporary nature and how the stage forces interaction through the lava. When it rises, you can't glide under and you'll REALLY have trouble planking. When it comes from the side, your stage access is limited severely. Etc. It's funny that you say that it's so good to run away; people who know their way around the stage almost all agree (and tournament results have shown this; ask ESAM especially) that the correct strategy is "camp the middle".

Aside from MK being the clear victor, you have a nasty trifecta of Wario, G&W, and Pika running around making hell for anyone else. Give one of those the lead, and I guarantee against 90% of the cast they basically auto win.

See above. Yes, I know that those 4 chars are awesome on the stage. But not THAT awesome.

Marth, Snake, Lucario, Peach, DK, no one realistically would be able to keep up. Falco would do alright, but he would be LOLLLL against planking. Even with champs that don't plank or run too well, the best strat on Norfair is to get the lead and play keep away, and Norfair definitely makes this a bit too easy on the running part.

Rgh. I really, REALLY doubt this works. Do you have any proof? Videos? Like, where people aren't being massive idiots while playing? Is this just theorycraft or do you do this in high level play?

It may be hard to picture that, not many matches have that occur. But no doubt, the problem is there. I'll start getting in matches with someone super gay like Lee or Gnes to show the community some of this.

Whoops how did this show up here without me noticing it?

Good.

 

[theunabletable]

I was talking to BPC. also if you don't wan't me to keep focusing on that stupid things you post, then don't post stupid things.

I see you made an edit, so I'm going to respond to that edit in a new post, to MAKE SURE that you see this post and respond to it.

Instead of going through what you just said, and pointing out why it's so completely ridiculous just to give you an opportunity to focus on something else than my actual argument, I'm just going to get right down to it.

I recommend that we ban Yoshi's Island using your logic.

 

[DMG]

Well, Razer for a long time would not MM me if I picked stages like Brinstar or Norfair because I could just run away lol. Bad things happen on the stage. I've picked this stage a few times when it was legal, and every single match that occurred has been quite gay either for the other guy or for both of us. G&W dittos for example, let's not go there about how awful gameplay turns when stuff like that goes down. When Norfair was widespread legal in Texas, there was a lot of gayness to spread.


The pic is one with MK hanging from the top edge, and Ganondorf close by on the second tier platform right?

Actually the pic proves nothing, and I explained why awhile back. Even though the lower platforms let you reach out to the planker, it doesn't solve the problem of the planker still being invincible when he lets go of the edge. Meaning he can drop down and actually use an aerial that covers the edge, while preventing you from counter attacking, as he falls. MK in particular doesn't care because he can drop down and use Down B, retain invincibility, and you have to guess where he is gonna go with it. Onstage, to a lower edge, back to the same edge, better guess right. You also have the option of dropping down and away and airdodging/waiting for the person to chase you while still being safe.

In reality, planking is no less safe on Norfair than it is on regular stages for those characters. In fact, because there are multiple edges, it gives them a larger margin of error. Having the platforms sharkable also contributes to their options and safety, not for the defending character. Yes, it is a bit easier to get to the side of them, the problem is that the "hole" when they are vulnerable from the side occurs when they drop down further. If you grabbed the top edge, and the bottom platform extended that far, then yes actually planking would be weaker because you would be in a position where they were weak once they dropped down. But the second tier platforms are just too close to the edge to be a problem.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I was talking to BPC. also if you don't wan't me to keep focusing on that stupid things you post, then don't post stupid things.

It's not "focusing on the stupid things". It's "focusing on a side tangent of my argument and ignoring the main core points". What you seem to be missing is that by focusing on the stupid stuff, you are not defusing my arguments. You are not proving that I'm wrong. You are merely showing that one tiny part of that argument is false. Like showing that a graph of climate data from the 50s helping to point to the curve in a global warming study. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THAT'S WRONG. THE REST OF THE INFORMATION/DATA/ARGUMENTS IS MORE THAN ENOUGH TO SHOW THAT YOU ARE WRONG.

To make a little comparison, it's like you say "the sky is green", I list any number of things showing that you are flat-out wrong, and then one of them has a typo, and you try to use that typo to invalidate my entire thesis.

And what The Unable Table said. That guy is sane.

It's 2:25 in the morning and I'll be back for more raging insanity tomorrow I guess. EDIT: And to respond to DMG's post.

 

[Braxton2011]

Lol braxton... you just committed the worst of all internet arguing techniques
http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/ob//internet_graphic1.jpg

time to leave the computer for a while

Trolling is an art.

 

[Shaya]

Trolling is a art.

Fixed.

Stop the spam.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Shaya, you somehow managed to anger me with that.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well, Razer for a long time would not MM me if I picked stages like Brinstar or Norfair because I could just run away lol. Bad things happen on the stage. I've picked this stage a few times when it was legal, and every single match that occurred has been quite gay either for the other guy or for both of us. G&W dittos for example, let's not go there about how awful gameplay turns when stuff like that goes down. When Norfair was widespread legal in Texas, there was a lot of gayness to spread.

Fun doesn't really matter. If you were able to run away the whole matchup, was it a broken tactic?

The pic is one with MK hanging from the top edge, and Ganondorf close by on the second tier platform right?

Actually the pic proves nothing, and I explained why awhile back. Even though the lower platforms let you reach out to the planker, it doesn't solve the problem of the planker still being invincible when he lets go of the edge. Meaning he can drop down and actually use an aerial that covers the edge, while preventing you from counter attacking, as he falls.

Really? If he drops down to a lower ledge you mean? I really would like to test against this. If you're dropping down to a lower ledge, there's only so far you can go, and while I can imagine that, regular planking and regrabbing the ledge you were on/above does not seem safe, or at least not broken. Think about it. MK may have a ton of invincibility, but in order to minimize his time vulnerable, he has to uair. Uair is definitely assaultable from below. If he fairs, bairs, or Dairs, he becomes even more vulnerable.

I need to test this personally, but I'm not convinced that it works.

MK in particular doesn't care because he can drop down and use Down B, retain invincibility, and you have to guess where he is gonna go with it. Onstage, to a lower edge, back to the same edge, better guess right. You also have the option of dropping down and away and airdodging/waiting for the person to chase you while still being safe.

This is accurate though...

In reality, planking is no less safe on Norfair than it is on regular stages for those characters. In fact, because there are multiple edges, it gives them a larger margin of error. Having the platforms sharkable also contributes to their options and safety, not for the defending character. Yes, it is a bit easier to get to the side of them, the problem is that the "hole" when they are vulnerable from the side occurs when they drop down further. If you grabbed the top edge, and the bottom platform extended that far, then yes actually planking would be weaker because you would be in a position where they were weak once they dropped down. But the second tier platforms are just too close to the edge to be a problem.

I don't know what to say about this other than "LAVA!".

 

[DMG]

Fun doesn't really matter. If you were able to run away the whole matchup, was it a broken tactic?




Really? If he drops down to a lower ledge you mean? I really would like to test against this. If you're dropping down to a lower ledge, there's only so far you can go, and while I can imagine that, regular planking and regrabbing the ledge you were on/above does not seem safe, or at least not broken. Think about it. MK may have a ton of invincibility, but in order to minimize his time vulnerable, he has to uair. Uair is definitely assaultable from below. If he fairs, bairs, or Dairs, he becomes even more vulnerable.

I need to test this personally, but I'm not convinced that it works.



This is accurate though...



I don't know what to say about this other than "LAVA!".

IMO, yes it's a broken tactic on the stage. Not to the degree of Hyrule/75M, but pretty bad.
When I said Gay, I didn't mean strictly unfun. I meant Gameplay was just dull and repetitive; both people doing the same things that had no counters to them and hoping to get the lead to do the same thing back.

Regrabbing the edge above you/that you were on is a good option when you start from the bottom. When you start from the top, you probably don't want to go back to that exact edge even if it's something for the opponent to remember. Starting at the bottom, you have a TON of options on what to do. Starting up higher, you don't have as many, but you aren't really limited either compared to normally.

As for Lava, I'm starting to see a lot of contradictions about it.

For example, when someone brings it up as a potential problem when fighting, a common response is "Well it's infrequent enough and gives you enough warning to avoid it". Yet, when I mention planking or scrooging, that same person will say "Wait a minute, Lava will get in the way."

What is it? Is Lava something significant enough in a match to reasonably stop planking and scrooging, or is it insignificant? I find it hard to believe that somehow it doesn't do anything when people normally fight, yet the instant someone planks it's gonna stop it forever.

Lava is NOT gonna stop this very often for very long. In fact, the lava restricting certain parts of the stage can benefit the person planking. If a Lava stream comes down and splits you from the opponent, he has to wait for it to disappear to hit you. If the wall of Lava comes to the front of the screen, everyone has to waste time shielding/taking cover briefly. Regular planking you can just time an edge grab with the lava wall, not too hard to do since you can extend it with a ledge action like standing up or rolling. If the wall of Lava comes from either side, even a slowpoke like MK moves fast enough horizontally to escape the hard of the Lava by either going above the stage or below it. The 1 person affected most by it is Wario, but even he can try to run from that side to the other side and aim vertically to try and stay away from the opponent.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It doesn't have to stop gameplay permanently. All it has to do is cause an interrupt long enough to force the camper into a weaker position. This is why the spot under DP's lip isn't that broken, or why I believe Onett's walkoff camping will not be too busted.

I will admit that when it comes to gay play on the stage, I am a little less knowledgeable than I should be. Do you have any vids of this super-gay gameplay on Norfair? I can't really take up your arguments effectively, I'm afraid.

 

[DMG]

It's for a short time period. Like a Pictochat change lol. I wouldn't trust something like that to be a big enough deterrent to severely impact the strength of those strats.

Or think about it like this: Lava makes gameplay from "Plank and run the entire time" into "Plank and Run, until the lava comes up, where you then avoid it and play safe until it disappears, and then go back to planking or running." It doesn't force you to stop enough/for long enough to make that strategy not work. This would be different MAYBE if Brawl wasn't already fairly defensive with "regular fighting. Even if you force MK off the edge, that doesn't guarantee give the opponent a free attack or damage.

 

[theunabletable]

Actually I'm curious about something, DMG. Are any of the non-MK planking strats any more effective on this stage? I have trouble believing that Wario can run away from the whole cast consistently safely. And, I mean, MK's planking is completely broken on every other stage, anyways, so I don't personally see why mentioning his planking still being broken here is TOO relevant (I'll agree with you that Norfair does not stop MK's planking suffeciently. But that isn't an argument against the stage. His planking is no more broken here than it is on, say, FD, since we know it's pretty much unbeatable on both FD and Norfair).

Now I'm going to make an assumption here, just for the sake of argument, and say that MK's scrooging is broken. And I'm also going to make an assumption and say that we're playing in an actual tournament, and not in a perfectly ideal situation with refs to watch every match all the time. IE a practical setting

If we accept that MK's planking is broken then he should either be 1) limited or 2) banned. If it's the latter, then MK's strengths on this stage in a practical enviroment really is irrelevant, and you should be working on trying to get MK banned, instead of trying to get Norfair banned due to an already completely broken character being just as broken on this stage as he is on every other stage with a ledge.

If it's the first, then what limitation would we use? I mean every limitation I've seen for stopping MK's planking in a practical tournament enviroment hits his scrooging pretty ****ing hard, too.

I mean if we were to use MLG rules as an example, would you say that MK's scrooging is broken with a 40 LGL?

I'm just curious about whether or not in a practical enviroment if there are any stalling problems with Norfair (with MK on Norfair, anyways. I don't know Wario that well, and if his running away is truly broken on Norfair (I kinda doubt it is, but, again, I don't play him or know him that well so I could be wrong) then the stage should be banned), and I'd like your opinion on the stage in a normal, practical enviroment since you usually always have a really intelligent, well thought-out opinion on everything. A practical enviroment being one that has restrictions on MK's planking.

 

[DMG]

40 LGL on Norfair? Too High actually. Scrooging on this stage is like on Smashville, but make it twice as powerful roughly. The reason is because Norfair has many "escape" paths for MK to go just as the Smashville platform gives MK a safe haven to go to instead of the edge. Same thing with Green Greens. MK can stay roughly in the "center" under one of the side stage platforms, and pick whether he wants to Shuttle Loop/Reverse Shuttle loop onstage, to the edge, Side B somewhere, Down B somewhere, Tornado from there to somewhere, approach an edge with a few Uairs into something, etc.

MK can drop off from any point of the stage, go under, and come out the other side OR the same side with a plethora of options. Imagine another SV platform that extended out even farther that ALSO has an edge. That's so strong for MK.

Non MK planking strats, only for G&W and Pika, are really noticeably stronger. They either have safety options for getting back onstage, or they have really good tools from stopping the opponent from stopping them. G&W can still Nair and Uair people to get away, and combine that with some nasty sharking. Pika is a bit dunb with ledge choices and not being screwed if you happen to take his ledge as he can keep going on.

As for Wario, he can run away from a very large portion of the cast on this stage and there is nothing realistic they can do to stop it. Diddy for example loses to Wario on this stage nearly as bad as Snake vs Wario on Brinstar. The problem is that the stage layout has breaks/gaps, which force characters to either fall in the air or jump in the air to reach the next break. This means that when they are forced to do this to get closer, you can abuse a character's mobility advantage to outmaneuver them safely (on the vertical scale you go either really high or really low because horizontal movement is already taken care of) and they can't catch you even if they change their minds mid movement. Diddy in particular fails badly to it because he has bad options for catching people who camp highly over him. Bananas you can either dodge or eat the hit every so often, and take SO little damage that with a good enough lead, you don't care if you eat 20+ bananas. Or say you get a stock lead, so what if he "sometimes" hits you with peanuts or bananas? He can't kill with those, and if you avoid putting yourself in Uair/Fair spots which isn't hard to do on this stage at least, then he is left with nothing. Same with Falco, sure he might peg you with lasers, but it would happen so sporadically that even with a small lead you shouldn't lose it unless you are careless.

MK's scrooging is broken. I'll say it for you. It's not auto lose for everyone in the game, however the constraint it puts on everyone else is so strong that you can turn every single matchup in the game as 7:3 in his favor or higher. Scrooging isn't the optimal play, however if Planking is diminished through a LGL resorting to scrooging certainly still leaves him too powerful especially when combined with regular onstage camping and occasional edge grabs. I mean, you could have a scrooging rule because of that, but as you know people at that point are already like "Well wtf why not just ban him/limit something else as well".

If you put MK on a short enough leash, then yes he wouldn't be a problem for Norfair (the other characters still would be unless you did something about them). Most people question why putting the leash on in the first place, or why it has to be that short.

 

[theunabletable]

MK can drop off from any point of the stage, go under, and come out the other side OR the same side with a plethora of options. Imagine another SV platform that extended out even farther that ALSO has an edge. That's so strong for MK.

I definitely get that it would be ridiculously strong, but if he has to grab a ledge at some point, wouldn't he go over the LGL?

I'm curious as to how long he can glide under the stage repeatedly without going over the LGL.

But what you're saying does make sense (I don't want to seem like I'm not responding to anything or avoiding any arguments, pretty much everything you're saying does make sense, I'm just unsure about how long MK could safely scrooge for without going over the LGL).