Official BBR Recommended Rule Set 3.1

[-Vocal-]

I feel like the physics changes on PS2 can be akin to "skilled usage" as platform cancelling is on SV and Lylat.
None of them mean stupid insta death at all.

Dedede is probably the only character who can do silly things on it... but as a starter... just strike it. Like you would YI for DK and Sonic.
(Treadmill inhale to exhale understage reverse bair/suicide; down throw to dsmash on some characters on the ice, cg against wall on the earth section; however... the first one should... honestly never happen, last two may happen but are unlikely to, ice one only costs you a stock if you're at kill percent... I don't think it works on heaver characters though).

The physics changed can be used by different characters skilfully, and because of that I believe players can learn to handle them and use them effectively.
Worst case scenario is, you camp on the transformations.

I really can't think of anything the stage forces you into that drastically changes the result of the match.

Air transformation is bad for MK
Treadmill transformation is bad for MK.
Stage is large, larger than PS1. MK doesn't like that.
Has large horizontal blast zones; but a lower roof in comparison (even though it is a larger roof than say; FD - as Marth i've survived fresh snake utilts at final percent of 130%; but that's more of the horizontal blast zones than the roof).

Ice transformation at worst requires you to walk on it. There are also platforms available.
Wind transformation doesn't get you freely ***** at all by anyone on the ground (bar ... like... sonic )
Treadmill has so many tricks and strategies on it, it's ridiculous.

All transformations last 30 seconds. In an 8 minute match there will be 5 transformations, 3 will be unique, 2 will show up twice (but not before all the others show up too).

Air transformation can be "stalled" at the top off screen (but they're gainin 1% a second for it) by the likes of Fox, Marth, ROB. Fox is probably the worst here, he can stay up there after the transformation goes for a pretty long time. People should strike this against fox.

I can agree with your reasoning about the physics and how players are able to deal with them, but is this really appropriate for a starter stage?

...

After thinking about it for a minute, I'd have to say that I agree that it could be used as a starter stage, but not in the same place that PS1 currently is.

Looking at the first five starters, they don't seem to add many stage specific elements of gameplay. While the layouts of platforms and angles differ, they produce largely similar gameplay (with differences caused by layout and angle taken into consideration, of course). Lylat would probably have the largest effect, as its tilt is always a factor, so that one is arguable. The other culprit would be the windmill on PS1, but again I'm not so sure it has a large effect.

However, once we go down the list to the seven and nine stage lists, we see many more stage specific skills required for play. FD is the exception here, but we know how polarizing it is; the other three are the more interesting ones. Castle Siege has the statues on the second transformation that both block projectiles and increase hitlag (and then there's also the mid-transformation, which can be planned for and utilized, though to a lesser extent), as well as the walkoffs. Delfino plaza has all sorts of stage specific skills - there are the walkoffs to abuse, the stage's "rise through" main platform can be used (used best by MK but by all characters as well, especially if the platform is lowering to an area), and the water found in several of the areas leads to stage specific gameplay as well. (While it shares the water trait with Pirate Ship [Japes is a different beast entirely], the positioning of the water in each stage leads to stage specific gameplay.) And Halberd, oho, take your pick - there's the "rise through" platform, the laser, and the bomb (the arm too, but not as much). Compared with the first five, these stages require much more stage knowledge in order to play successfully (which is, I assume, why there were designated as Starter/Counter).

When I look at the two divisions, PS2 seems like it would fit in more comfortably with the 7 and 9 stage starter lists as opposed to the additional 5 stage starter list that PS1 resides in.

 

[Shaya]

play on PS2 some.
PS1 just... isn't a good starter stage lol

how do you rate platform cancelling?
It exists on YI, Lylat and Smashville.

 

[Flayl]

Guys I posted this in tournament discussion but apparently not many brawl people go there

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283830

It's about using 2 stock 6 minute timer rules, specially for tournaments with other fighting games and in case the TO wants to make larger pools / more time for friendlies.

If you have any idea about the down-sides let me know, more specifically the Lucario thing.

 

[Luxor]

On the positive side, the sets will go faster and there's more time per stock, so last-second last-hit M2K vs. Brood style timeouts don't happen.

On the negative side... even Lucario won't win if he's down 2 stocks, but this would make a significant difference for Lucario in doubles if he's using the Anubis strategy.

Sounds competitive to me.

 

[-Vocal-]

play on PS2 some.
PS1 just... isn't a good starter stage lol

how do you rate platform cancelling?
It exists on YI, Lylat and Smashville.

Before I reply, does it only appear on those stages specifically or does it work on any stage with a platform?

 

[da K.I.D.]

has to be a moving platform.

 

[-Vocal-]

has to be a moving platform.

Ok, then I have to ask another question: what is platform canceling? I thought it was canceling an action (like a dash) by hitting down on the control stick on a platform and then hitting shield to cancel the drop through, enabling the user to go extremely quickly from an action like dashing into something like a tilt or a smash.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its jumping through a moving platform and hitting down right as you pass through it so that you can instantly do grounded moves from standing nuetral position on said platform, as opposed to having to finish the rise of your jump and than fall back down onto said platform.

 

[-Vocal-]

its jumping through a moving platform and hitting down right as you pass through it so that you can instantly do grounded moves from standing nuetral position on said platform, as opposed to having to finish the rise of your jump and than fall back down onto said platform.

Fascinating; I suppose this would make the only other stage with this quality RC.

...

I would still say that PS2 should reside further down on the starter list than the 5 stage list because it has many aspects that are entirely specific to it.

While platform canceling is definitely a stage dependent technique, I would not call it stage specific; there are three stages (four with RC?) that it can be performed on, and unless I'm mistaken it functions the same on each of those stages. This would mean that if I practice platform canceling on SV, that skillset will transfer over with me to YI and Lylat.

However, the thing with the other stages is that they have stage specific skillsets. My list before wasn't very accurate in that it included stage qualities that weren't stage specific, so a revision would look more like this:

Castle Siege

• Statues that block some projectiles while not others
• Statues that increase hitlag, thus extending the duration of moves

Delfino Plaza

• Water with no ledge to return to and a time limit to get out of it (I added this qualifier as the water with ledges can be likened to Pirate Ship)

Halberd

• Tracking laser with long tracking period and long duration
• Slow moving bombs (different from Pirate Ship in that it can better be planned for and utilized, as opposed to Pirate Ship's bombs which can be hard to track and even harder to use)
• Targeting robotic arm

And if we were to make a list for PS2, we would get:

Pokemon Stadium 2

• Sliding physics during the ice transformation
• Conveyor belts during the electric transformation
• Reduced gravity during the air transformation (I would think that the duration of it would be enough to treat it seperately from Pirate Ship)

If I were to try to make a list for the first five stages, I'd be hard pressed to find more than one for each of them; Lylat and Battlefield have none I can think of, YI only has the support ghosts, SV has the moving platform, and PS1 has the windmill. Looking at these lists, Delfino is the only stage with only one stage specific quality listed; perhaps I need to think more about how it performs as a starter. Nonetheless, I still believe that PS2 would go lower on the Starter/CP list than PS1 currently is.

On a side note, why do you think PS1 is bad? Because of the cease-fires it causes sometimes?

 

[Chuee]

PS1 is incredibly campy.

 

[-Vocal-]

PS1 is incredibly campy.

So? Since when does campy make a stage bad? Not to mention it's the only one on a 5 stage starter (perhaps the others as well) that you'd call a campy stage (with SV behind it?)

 

[Raziek]

Shaya and BPC pretty much covered everything on FD. As for PS2, I'd put it in 9 for sure, possibly 7, but I don't know if I'm 100% sold on 5.

It IS however, a great starter stage though.

 

[-Vocal-]

Shaya and BPC pretty much covered everything on FD. As for PS2, I'd put it in 9 for sure, possibly 7, but I don't know if I'm 100% sold on 5.

It IS however, a great starter stage though.

I can see that; unorthodox, but still a good candidate for starter nonetheless

 

[Raziek]

I can see that; unorthodox, but still a good candidate for starter nonetheless

It's unorthodox, but there's nothing fundamentally WRONG with it. There are no actual hazards, and it has better ledges than PS1 or Lylat.

If you want a transformation by transformation comparison, we can do that, too.

Electric (Ps2) vs. Fire (Ps1)

It's no surprise to anyone that these transitions usually get timed out because one position is so absurdly similar to the other. That said, it's far more feasible to displace someone from Electric than it is from Fire.

Ground (PS2) vs. Rock (PS1)

Rock is worse than ground here. Ground has an advantageous position, but it isn't as strong as Rock's, unless you're fighting Dedede. Both stages have a small area that is same to fight in. (Left side for PS2, Right for PS1) Ground wins this one.

Air (PS2) vs. Water (PS1)

I like to compare the windmill and the wind in these cases. Both cases revolve around a source of power that is abusable by both characters. On Air, characters with strong ground games become near impossible to approach, but at the same time, if they are launched, they have an extremely difficult time landing. Water revolves around abusing techs on the windmill, easily done by both characters. I'd say these two are roughly equal.

Ice (PS2) vs. Grass (PS1)

There's really nothing wrong with grass at all, so it wins this one by default. That said, the traction change is different, but by no means game-breaking for ANY type of character.

Neutral vs. Neutral.

PS2 wins for having less janky ledges.

Overall Score: 4 points for PS2, 2 points for PS1.

That's my opinion, at any rate.

 

[Spelt]

I'd consider PS2 a starter waaaaaay before i'd consider halberd one...

 

[-Vocal-]

It's unorthodox, but there's nothing fundamentally WRONG with it. There are no actual hazards, and it has better ledges than PS1 or Lylat.

If you want a transformation by transformation comparison, we can do that, too.

Electric (Ps2) vs. Fire (Ps1)

It's no surprise to anyone that these transitions usually get timed out because one position is so absurdly similar to the other. That said, it's far more feasible to displace someone from Electric than it is from Fire.

Ground (PS2) vs. Rock (PS1)

Rock is worse than ground here. Ground has an advantageous position, but it isn't as strong as Rock's, unless you're fighting Dedede. Both stages have a small area that is same to fight in. (Left side for PS2, Right for PS1) Ground wins this one.

Air (PS2) vs. Water (PS1)

I like to compare the windmill and the wind in these cases. Both cases revolve around a source of power that is abusable by both characters. On Air, characters with strong ground games become near impossible to approach, but at the same time, if they are launched, they have an extremely difficult time landing. Water revolves around abusing techs on the windmill, easily done by both characters. I'd say these two are roughly equal.

Ice (PS2) vs. Grass (PS1)

There's really nothing wrong with grass at all, so it wins this one by default. That said, the traction change is different, but by no means game-breaking for ANY type of character.

Neutral vs. Neutral.

PS2 wins for having less janky ledges.

Overall Score: 4 points for PS2, 2 points for PS1.

That's my opinion, at any rate.

I know there's nothing wrong with it, that's why I didn't list anything ^_^ Still, I'd have to leave it lower on the list for the same reasons I laid out earlier; the more stage specific gameplay there is, the further down I believe it should be on the Starter/CP list.

@Spelt: Agreed.

 

[Luxor]

PS2 is a more balanced stage than FD, SV, BF, Halberd, PS1, Delfino, and maybe Lylat. And it was banned why?

 

[Ussi]

People didn't want to adapt to wind, ice and treedmills

 

[Luxor]

...I meant that as a rhetorical question, but thanks. As long as a stage is balanced, it should be legal; being 'weird' isn't banworthy IMO.

 

[-Vocal-]

...I meant that as a rhetorical question, but thanks. As long as a stage is balanced, it should be legal; being 'weird' isn't banworthy IMO.

But it is legal. Do you mean why isn't it a starter?

 

[BSP]

I would still say that PS2 should reside further down on the starter list than the 5 stage list because it has many aspects that are entirely specific to it.

IMO, its specific aspects aren't the reason it needs to be lower, it's the aspects possible effects on the match.

Pokemon Stadium 2

• Sliding physics during the ice transformation
• Conveyor belts during the electric transformation
• Reduced gravity during the air transformation (I would think that the duration of it would be enough to treat it seperately from Pirate Ship)

The Ice directly influences gameplay. For example, I'm pretty sure D3 has a garunteed walking Dsmash on you if you're CG'able and he gets you. A lot of Fsmashes get more range, some Dsmashes too, and then all the characters aren't evenly affected (ex. ICs have perfect traction on ice IIRC, so they shouldn't slide at all)

The conveyor belts can really exploit some characters already bad ledge games. For example, if I'm Mario, my only real options are to do the long get up (and be forced back to the edge by the belt) or jump, which leaves me open to attack. Most characters can start charging a Usmash, move towards me, and then drop off the stage with no lag.

The air transformation messes with air speeds, but it also opens up many stalling applications (Jiggs, MK, Sonic even).

Yes, a lot of this is theorycraft, but it's pretty basic thinking as well. IDK about it being a starter in a 5 stage starter list. I need to play on the stage more, which is good because I like its music.

@Spelt

How so? All Halberd really has is a slightly lower ceiling, and a (easily dodgable) robotic arm, cannonball, and laser. You could argue that the low ceiling will skew MUs a bit, but certainly not so much to where it's under PS2 in viability as a starter.

 

[-Vocal-]

IMO, its specific aspects aren't the reason it needs to be lower, it's the aspects possible effects on the match.

Well that's what I meant of course - I'd only bring them up if they have a large effect, as opposed to something like the balloon on SV.

inb4someonementionsthePKtwins

 

[Spelt]

ICs traction on ice is a good thing, it doesn't mess up their chain grabs.

If your top priority is getting back on stage without getting hurt you're not gonna be trying to punish a usmash with lag. Plus if they do try something like this and they miss, you're now on stage and they're now off. Seems like a pretty stupid thing to do if you're against mario, Mr. One-Well-Placed-Cape-And-The-Opponents-Dead.

 

[-Vocal-]

ICs traction on ice is a good thing, it doesn't mess up their chain grabs.

If your top priority is getting back on stage without getting hurt you're not gonna be trying to punish a usmash with lag. Plus if they do try something like this and they miss, you're now on stage and they're now off. Seems like a pretty stupid thing to do if you're against mario, Mr. One-Well-Placed-Cape-And-The-Opponents-Dead.

For the ICs he was just saying that they get an advantage on ice...or disadvantage...idk which but the point is it's not even. Idk how much of an issue this is, I'd have to think more about it. Even so, that just makes a part of the stage good/bad for them, not really a problem per se.

And I think the part about the Usmash > Fall Off is that it makes it really easy to cover options - Usmash would punish a jump and they can Bair once they fall off. This is more along the lines of why I don't think it's appropriate for a 5 stage starter list - stage specific techniques and gameplay like that aren't fit for a 5 stage list as I see it.

 

[BSP]

It would depend on the character.

Actually, you're right. The usmash was a pretty bad example. What if it was Mario vs. D3? On the Elec. stage, if Mario's got to grab a ledge, D3 can just walk on the treadmill until Mario does something, or just keeps regrabbing the ledge. Either way, the stage is limiting Mario's options in this scenario.

Well, Vocal pretty much summed up what I meant.

 

[Spelt]

Usmash only covers a ledge jump. The (mario) can still ledge roll or ledge attack.

How are you going to punish a ledge attack? Stand on the conveyor belt and get ready to shield grab them? Lol.

 

[BSP]

I'm about to test it right now, but I'm pretty sure a ledge attack puts Mario back off the stage, since the conveyor belt moves him back off.

Edit- Yes. Mario's ledge attack and normal get up will cause him to fall right back offstage. You don't have to worry about covering those two options. The ledge roll takes longer, but it's only pro, the distance, is nullified by the conveyor belt. All he can really do is jump, let go and jump back on, or ledge roll.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Additionally, if the mario's options are that limited, what's wrong with him camping the ledge until the transformation changes?

 

[Spelt]

It depends on how much cool down there is on the move, after some you can jump or roll dodge away. Even if it does put you back on the ledge, there's still not many things the opponent can do. They either try to shield grab and then get flung off the stage, try to hit you out of the ledge attack, which has maybe a 50% change of working? Maybe less? Or they wait for you to get back on stage.

 

[Raziek]

Additionally, if the mario's options are that limited, what's wrong with him camping the ledge until the transformation changes?

This is kinda what I'm thinking, honestly.

 

[-Vocal-]

Details, details - the point is that the stage leads to very stage specific combat, and, while the same can be said of all stages to some extent, the effects PS2 causes are just too large to justify it being in a 5 stage starter list.

Also, something I just thought about: Raziek, one of your main complaints against PS1 is that some of its transformations have "strong position syndrome" (for lack of a better term) where one player can occupy the most advantageous position on screen. After thinking about that for a while, I'm beginning to doubt PS1's legitimacy as a starter stage, especially since no other starter includes that feature. But it's also important that these positions don't last for very long...mmm, I need to wrap my brain around this a bit more.

edit: And forcing Mario to camp the ledge wouldn't be any different from going on the left side during Rock and forcing Mario to approach you; though he may have more options on Rock, he's still in the less advantaged position.

 

[Spelt]

Why is the left side of the rock the "strong position"?

 

[Raziek]

Details, details - the point is that the stage leads to very stage specific combat, and, while the same can be said of all stages to some extent, the effects PS2 causes are just too large to justify it being in a 5 stage starter list.

Also, something I just thought about: Raziek, one of your main complaints against PS1 is that some of its transformations have "strong position syndrome" (for lack of a better term) where one player can occupy the most advantageous position on screen. After thinking about that for a while, I'm beginning to doubt PS1's legitimacy as a starter stage, especially since no other starter includes that feature. But it's also important that these positions don't last for very long...mmm, I need to wrap my brain around this a bit more.

edit: And forcing Mario to camp the ledge wouldn't be any different from going on the left side during Rock and forcing Mario to approach you; though he may have more options on Rock, he's still in the less advantaged position.

My point wasn't that it shouldn't be a starter. My point was that it causes arguably more disruption than PS2. Because really, how often do you see people actually FIGHT on Rock or Fire for PS1?

I just think PS2 might be better than PS1 as a starter, that's all. The other alternatives may be less janky than PS2 when directly compared, but I think only Halberd would really maintain the balance implications, and Halberd being a CP for several characters tells me PS2 is probably the better choice.

@Spelt, have you tried approaching a character with good ledge options from above? MK and Marth will **** you for it, among others. It isn't impossible, but it's definitely the stronger position.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

My stance on PS1 is the lack of other suitable stages for neutrals. After YI, SV, and BF, you will be hard pressed to find any stage that is not somewhat debateable about not being thought of as neutral.

I feel as if custom stages should be looked into more for filling the need for more appropriate neutral stages. We have plenty of stages to pick from for CPs.

 

[-Vocal-]

My point wasn't that it shouldn't be a starter. My point was that it causes arguably more disruption than PS2. Because really, how often do you see people actually FIGHT on Rock or Fire for PS1?

I just think PS2 might be better than PS1 as a starter, that's all. The other alternatives may be less janky than PS2 when directly compared, but I think only Halberd would really maintain the balance implications, and Halberd being a CP for several characters tells me PS2 is probably the better choice.

@Spelt, have you tried approaching a character with good ledge options from above? MK and Marth will **** you for it, among others. It isn't impossible, but it's definitely the stronger position.

I think I got that; at any rate that's what I wanted to think more about - is disruption a bad quality for a starter stage to have? I'm not sure yet...

 

[BSP]

Additionally, if the mario's options are that limited, what's wrong with him camping the ledge until the transformation changes?

True, and I see your point, but IMO, a nuetral stage should not be able to put you in such a bad position, or limit your options that much.

What about the air transformation? It makes floaty and easily juggled characters even more prone to punishment. It also encourages stalling too.

Here's how I see it atm:

The normal transformation is fine.
Ice is ok, but it gives some character's smashes a lot more range. I'm not sure what else it messes with, but I know it will affect Sonic's running game for one. Oli's pivot grab acts weirdly too due to the Ice's reduced traction.
Electric's belts limit options. Not good for a starter.
Air promotes stalling and punishes floaty/aerial characters too.
Earth's got that strong point that Vocal mentioned.

Nothing game breaking, but this should put PS2 higher up in the starter list.

 

[-Vocal-]

True, and I see your point, but IMO, a nuetral stage should not be able to put you in such a bad position, or limit your options that much.

What about the air transformation? It makes floaty and easily juggled characters even more prone to punishment. It also encourages stalling too.

Here's how I see it atm:

The normal transformation is fine.
Ice is ok, but it gives some character's smashes a lot more range. I'm not sure what else it messes with, but I know it will affect Sonic's running game for one. Oli's pivot grab acts weirdly too due to the Ice's reduced traction.
Electric's belts limit options. Not good for a starter.
Air promotes stalling and punishes floaty/aerial characters too.
Earth's got that strong point that Vocal mentioned.

Nothing game breaking, but this should put PS2 higher up in the starter list.

Raziek mentioned that actually Also, Rock has a strong point, and i'm not sure how I feel about that yet.

Still, I think the main concern is not any one of these transformations by themselves; it's more a concern that they are all a part of the same stage, and that much stage specific gameplay doesn't fit into a 5 stage starter.

Are we all just agreeing and arguing it in different ways? I'm kind of getting that feeling

 

[Spelt]

@Spelt, have you tried approaching a character with good ledge options from above? MK and Marth will **** you for it, among others. It isn't impossible, but it's definitely the stronger position.

Yeah but it's just as hard to approach someone against a wall on delfino or under the platform on the right side of the rock. if you mess up it means a wall infinite/lock.

Technically speaking, you aren't "forced to approach" in any way, so it's just as strong as a position as any other.

My stance on PS1 is the lack of other suitable stages for neutrals. After YI, SV, and BF, you will be hard pressed to find any stage that is not somewhat debateable about not being thought of as neutral.

I feel as if custom stages should be looked into more for filling the need for more appropriate neutral stages. We have plenty of stages to pick from for CPs.

I agree. i think custom stages should definitely be looked into more.

 

[BSP]

Raziek mentioned that actually Also, Rock has a strong point, and i'm not sure how I feel about that yet.

Still, I think the main concern is not any one of these transformations by themselves; it's more a concern that they are all a part of the same stage, and that much stage specific gameplay doesn't fit into a 5 stage starter.

Are we all just agreeing and arguing it in different ways? I'm kind of getting that feeling

I guess we are, IDK. Either way, we need to play on this stage more to really see how it works.

Luxor's right. IDK how PS2 was ever in the banned category.

 

[Raziek]

PS2 ended up in banned because people decided it was annoying. REALLY REALLY AWFUL BAN REASON.