Official BBR Recommended Rule Set 3.1

[-Vocal-]

You really shouldn't do that. If the people coming to your tourney voiced their mind about Falco being stupid and gay and cheap and wanted him banned, would you ban him? No, of course not, because they are merely being whining scrubs. It's your duty not to bow down to them, but to educate them and show them why they're wrong. >.<

Also, why does stage interactiveness even play a role at all in the starter list? When you're looking for the most balanced stage for a matchup and PS2 happens to be very balanced for almost every matchup (even moreso than Smashville or YI), it doesn't belong tentatively in the 7-stage starter list, it belongs squarely in the 3-stage starter list. The number of hazards shouldn't matter, why should it?

Other people already mentioned the first paragraph, so no need to go there.

As for your stance on stages...perhaps you're right. I was thinking of starter as "a stage that gives as little character advantage and requires as little stage abuse knowledge as possible." The thing is, I'm not so sure of that statement anymore; for instance, there are people who practice frame traps that abuse the platfrom layout of BF.

I suppose I just need to change my definition then. If the stage truly is that balanced...I could see it replacing PS1. I'd have to play on it a LOT more before making a comment about whether or not it should be on a 3 stage list; that's a pretty huge leap for a stage to make.

 

[Raziek]

I would never argue for it for a 3-stage list. BF, SV, YI does that just fine.

 

[-Vocal-]

I would never argue for it for a 3-stage list. BF, SV, YI does that just fine.

Fine with me. And @ your last post: yea that's probably what did it

 

[Justblaze647]

Look at 2:12-2:30

Stalling is banned.
Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while using an infinite to run out the timer rather than to score a KO is. As such, any infinite chain-grabs, locks, etc. cannot exceed 300%

I invite Shaya, MMM, or anyone for that matter to convince me why this isn't considered stalling

 

[Spelt]

Because nobody would ever disqualify M2K.

 

[-LzR-]

So MK dair camping makes the game unplayable?

 

[Justblaze647]

You are obviously trolling, or just being purposefully stupid.

Watch the part of the vid I said to watch

 

[-Vocal-]

So MK dair camping makes the game unplayable?

Dair camping - wha? Did you even look at the video?

Not saying it was stalling, but you're definitely not looking at the right thing.

That said, the game was still playable...technically...even though Falco getting MK off a ledge is hard already and this ledge has the advantage of being lower than the platform...MK is stupid and gay. It's not stalling technically, just stupid and gay, meaning it fits in perfectly with a lot of other stuff he does...

 

[Justblaze647]

That said, the game was still playable...technically...even though Falco getting MK off a ledge is hard already and this ledge has the advantage of being lower than the platform...MK is stupid and gay. It's not stalling technically, just stupid and gay, meaning it fits in perfectly with a lot of other stuff he does...

The point is that he's deliberately avoiding conflict, which is denoted by the definition as stalling. Falco can't approach that. Proven fact. So it's left entirely up to MK to decide when to engage.

Why isn't this stalling if it turns the match into a game of waiting, with one player in control of when and where combat happens?

 

[Espy Rose]

He's deliberately avoiding conflict, yes.

However, he is not "deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Technically, like Vocal said, it's NOT stalling because the game is still, by all means, playable.

 

[-LzR-]

Oh yeah, that video was in a pretty sneak place. I just saw you argue about the definition of stalling. The line between stalling and playing safe/smart isn't very simple.
Also that match was playing safe. M2K abused his options on the stage with Falco's very limited options on that stage. Why would he do otherwise just to get grabbed?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Look at 2:12-2:30

I invite Shaya, MMM, or anyone for that matter to convince me why this isn't considered stalling

Well, it isn't making the game unplayable. Simple as that. That's the definition of what the BBR bans as stalling, and banning more than that is simply irresponsible.

M2K at that time had a ludicrously strong positional advantage, and he chose to do the competitive thing and not abandon it. DEHF on the other hand knew that attempting to approach that position would be a ****ing terrible idea. So he did the competitively reasonable thing to do and waited until the stage removed the positional advantage from M2K.

There was no stalling by BBR definition. There was camping/stalling by casual definition, but definitely not something that deserves a disqualification.

He's deliberately avoiding conflict, yes.

However, he is not "deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Technically, like Vocal said, it's NOT stalling because the game is still, by all means, playable.

Yes, this. Also, as said before, Circle Camping is also not stalling.

EDIT: The line is not unclear at all, it is very solidly drawn when it makes the game unplayable for the opponent.

 

[-LzR-]

Once again BPC is correct, but he sucks because he doesn't play MK against DEHF on Rainbow Cruise on tournament matches so his argument became invalid.

 

[PK-ow!]

At most, this may meet an argument of

"This is 'stallish camping', in the sense we mean when we say 'fighter games in which the superior option is stallish camping 100% of the time are, while still by all means possibly competitive, stupid and boring and not worth playing."

At most.
I'm not saying it does.

But MK wasn't stalling Falco there. He was just saying no.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah. Also, who's to say that M2K was stalling? I'm gonna say that DEHF was "stalling" because he refused to approach.

 

[-LzR-]

Yes, Falco was the one stalling because he was the one that had to approach, but he didn't so he was wasting the timer. That is correct. And neither one of them were really stalling. They were waiting for the opportunity.

 

[-Vocal-]

Once again BPC is correct, but he sucks because he doesn't play MK against DEHF on Rainbow Cruise on tournament matches so his argument became invalid.

That's not it all, dude. You haven't been around long enough to see BPC through enough arguments. I've seen him in at least 7 and a lot of the times he just steps way out of line (stuff like calling people dumb scrubs and raving nearly on the level of a Bible fanatic). He's doing quite well in this conversation (except for where it looks like he chewed da Kid out?) but BPC has brought any malcontent upon himself.

 

[-LzR-]

Just because of what he did in other threads (which I haven't seen even thought I have lurked a lot) doesn't take the credibility of his arguments and allow him to flamed.

 

[-Vocal-]

Just because of what he did in other threads (which I haven't seen even thought I have lurked a lot) doesn't take the credibility of his arguments and allow him to flamed.

O_o

You're kidding, right?

People criticize him for the way he argues, so YES, what he does in other threads is extremely relevant. You don't say "oh that guy killed someone in Ohio but we're in Florida and he hasn't done it here so that doesn't matter." It's his character that people have a problem with.

And furthermore, he is stubborn as all hell. It once took me one and a half 40-count pages to convince him that stages are banned on subjective reasoning, something everyone was telling him since he entered the thread. Stuff like that is the reason BPC gets a hard time - he brings it upon himself.

Believe me when I tell you this: you just have not been to enough threads to see it for yourself. Nobody is unjustly judging him or ignoring him because he's less experienced - it's because of how he has made himself known. (There are people who call him a Brawl minus wifi scrub like L0rd H3lmet, but he's just a troll.)

 

[Spelt]

It's pointless vocal, just ignore them.


We should keep the discussion on topic.

 

[-LzR-]

I still think it's pretty unfair towards BPC, but I guess that's none of my business.
Now to get on topic. Distant Planet sucks.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Why?
10offerexplanationsplz

 

[-Vocal-]

I still think it's pretty unfair towards BPC, but I guess that's none of my business.
Now to get on topic. Distant Planet sucks.

It's not.

On topic: maybe it does, but it isn't quite certain; videos proving that it's broken are always welcome here. I like watching gay stage play

 

[da K.I.D.]

Back to my original thought. It sounds like most of the people in this thread find PS2 more suitable as a neutral stage than Final D. Is this correct?

@DP
A friend of mine told me that DP was broken due to being too campable. This is a player who is known for his ledge play. He challenged me to a all DP money match because I told him there was nothing wrong with the stage. He took the time to learn the stage and practice on it for a fair amount of time. When the time came, I believe I double 2 stocked him. Which for reference, is about the same margin of victory I have every time I play him.

Keep in mind, he was playing yoshi, who had a walk off 0-death GR on my character, and still got 2 stocked.
note that the matches took longer than normal, due to his determination and dedication to camping the ledge, but the more skilled player definitely won out in the end.

 

[-LzR-]

I just said to DP sucks to make my post "on topic" lol.
Well to say something, the circle is very effective. Creating an almost unapproachable position, on the ledge under the stage. You can hit him easily as the ledge is slanted. Also there is always the option to go to the other ledge. This goes by the definition of stalling since it makes the game unplayable.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I do. A starter's value should be determined by how balanced it is in most matchups (as in, doesn't favor one character over the other), not by how static it is. PS2 is far more balanced and less polar than FD. Still, go with a big starter list. >.> It'll lead to more balanced round oen.

 

[-Vocal-]

I do. A starter's value should be determined by how balanced it is in most matchups (as in, doesn't favor one character over the other), not by how static it is. PS2 is far more balanced and less polar than FD. Still, go with a big starter list. >.> It'll lead to more balanced round oen.

^Whut thys gai sed

Minus the part about big lists

 

[Justblaze647]

So as long as it doesn't freeze/glitch the game out in anyway, it can't be considered stalling? Also, I would like a much clearer definition of what makes the game 'unplayable.'

Also, lol @ KID's shining shield of holy justice

 

[Spelt]

No, if anything i think it's as suitable.
and more suitable than everything else from 7+



And my problems with halberd, for the person asking awhile ago:

The claw isn't really "avoidable" when you're also fighting the opponent, and it's no where near avoidable when you're off stage.

Sharking is another problem. Sharkable stages aren't just air-based, they're in their own category of aerial stage play. It opens up so many options that aren't available in other stages, it's basically changing the way we play on it in general.

I don't think that's how starters should work.

 

[-Vocal-]

So as long as it doesn't freeze/glitch the game out in anyway, it can't be considered stalling? Also, I would like a much clearer definition of what makes the game 'unplayable.'

Also, lol @ KID's shining shield of holy justice

No, other things could be stalling as well - from what I've heard, Jigglypuff rising pound on PS2 windphase could be stalling. I think the general idea is that if you opponent has no way to hit you, it's stalling.

True, Falco would have a **** hard time hitting MK while he's on that ledge (gay gay gay gay gay) but it's still technically possible, albeit unsafe.

 

[-LzR-]

You are kidding about the claw right?

 

[da K.I.D.]

personally I think more than 7 starters is too many.

also, refer to my last post, to why DP isnt bannable.

 

[-Vocal-]

You are kidding about the claw right?

The claw is one hundred percent unavoidable.

oh wait

*presses shield*

Ahvena's right about that one Spelt

 

[-LzR-]

I don't think there is any reason a stage with a circle, walkoff and an instant death hazard being legal.
Thought the former 2 aren't real problem, they add up with the circle.

 

[Chuee]

No, other things could be stalling as well - from what I've heard, Jigglypuff rising pound on PS2 windphase could be stalling.

I remember seeing a video about PS2's windphase stalling potential, and I recall a few characters being able to stall at the top.
But the stage transformation doesn't last the entire match so it probably wouldn't enough to ban it.

 

[-LzR-]

Standing inside a transformation that spawned around you in Picto isn't stalling either.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So as long as it doesn't freeze/glitch the game out in anyway, it can't be considered stalling? Also, I would like a much clearer definition of what makes the game 'unplayable.'

Also, lol @ KID's shining shield of holy justice

Kinda. And a definition of unplayable... Err, someone else try that one.

I just said to DP sucks to make my post "on topic" lol.
Well to say something, the circle is very effective. Creating an almost unapproachable position, on the ledge under the stage. You can hit him easily as the ledge is slanted. Also there is always the option to go to the other ledge. This goes by the definition of stalling since it makes the game unplayable.

It's not stalling. It's a very strong positional advantage, not stalling. Your opponent can still approach with varying degrees of success (in some cases, none). It's like circle camping. You can approach that fox, but you will never succeed. Does that make it stalling? Nope.

 

[Justblaze647]

No, other things could be stalling as well - from what I've heard, Jigglypuff rising pound on PS2 windphase could be stalling. I think the general idea is that if you opponent has no way to hit you, it's stalling.

But the game is still playable here, no? Worst case scenario, you just have to wait for the stage to transform back to neutral. This is why I wanted a better definition of what makes the game 'unplayable.'

 

[Spelt]

Did you read my post?

The claw isn't really "avoidable" when you're also fighting the opponent, and it's no where near avoidable when you're off stage.

If it was unclear, what i meant by this is that the claw is very avoidable if you and your opponent are currently not in conflict, and your opponent is on the other side of the field or something throwing grenades because he's snake.

However, if you're against say ... Meta Knight, who is currently dair camping/grabbing/juggling you, you're now fighting against both the claw and the opponent, and trying to fend off MK's attacks at the same time as the claw's attacks is harder than just shielding the claw.

Also, if you're offstage, and getting ledge guarded, the claw is basically a free kill for the opponent. Either you air dodge it and fly past the ledge, or you get hit by it.

Edit: Also, pretty sure the claw goes through Cypher's heavy armor. So, touch luck to Snake players.

 

[-Vocal-]

But the game is still playable here, no? Worst case scenario, you just have to wait for the stage to transform back to neutral. This is why I wanted a better definition of what makes the game 'unplayable.'

And once the stage transforms, you can no longer stall. Doesn't change that it's stalling while the transformation is there.

Ahvena brings up a good point with the transformations in Picto, but we're all forgetting the really operative word: excessive. Iirc, the ruleset says no excessive stalling. For instance, if you could sit in that box for 7 minutes as opposed to under 30 seconds, it'd definitely be a problem, but since that isn't possible you can't excessively stall with it.

Did you read my post?



If it was unclear, what i meant by this is that the claw is very avoidable if you and your opponent are currently not in conflict, and your opponent is on the other side of the field or something throwing grenades because he's snake.

However, if you're against say ... Meta Knight, who is currently dair camping/grabbing/juggling you, you're now fighting against both the claw and the opponent, and trying to fend off MK's attacks at the same time as the claw's attacks is harder than just shielding the claw.

Also, if you're offstage, and getting ledge guarded, the claw is basically a free kill for the opponent. Either you air dodge it and fly past the ledge, or you get hit by it.

Edit: Also, pretty sure the claw goes through Cypher's heavy armor. So, touch luck to Snake players.

I've played several MKs on Halberd and been able to avoid the arm during combat. Perhaps your character requires more focus than Olimar? At any rate it's definitely avoidable, though the offstage part can certainly suck.