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Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

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Maharba the Mystic

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i was there at WGF and i got to say since i got out early on and i was from trevonte's region watching his matches were more than enough for me to believe fox goes even with mk. im not gonna throw out a bunch of fact and crap cause i don't care enough about fox anymore to do so. but just saying until you guys see how it's done by the fox's, you have no right to say that mk wins because he is mk. fox is easily mk's worst match up imo. but like i said, it's just imo
 

Laem

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1 more top level main and Sonic can claim the same.
i'd personally actually believe that sonics mu vs him aint bad if u can in fact get that 1 more player LOL (for the record, x espy and..? fairly sure actually those are the only great ones. i remember speed beating DSF but DSF was garbz)
 
D

Deleted member

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Wolf's Fair has a HUGE range(beats Marth's fair) and is pretty legit at getting R.O.B. in the air, and then he can do the rest with Uair or even get multiple hits with Bair(JJ had a video of an extreme case of this I believe...something like 9 bairs, lol).

Ever since this chart came out, Ishieymoro re-opened the Wolf Match-Up Center and I put in a vote to rediscuss the R.O.B. MU, so hopefully we'll have a better idea of how this plays out.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Pierce, you have a lot of interesting stances, that I'd love to talk with you about but I feel like this is not the place for it, as I'd mainly do it for my personal benefit. Personally, I believe Snake to solidly beat Olimar but I don't like debating these things publicly.

:059:
 

Steam

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I still don't understand how Falco can be even with MK so long as MK has a CP

is falco not completely boned on RC or Brinstar against MK or something?
 

Rizk18

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A bunch of people do, actually, including TKD who knows how the matchup works on both sides better than anyone lol.

Really? Fox's walk is fast, and allows him to shield grab Dtilt, ftilt is ****ing unsafe, and Fair on wiff gets upsmashed.

Fox is the hardest, and most dangerous character to juggle due to shine, side B, fast fall speed, and his dair comboing into everything. Fox has approaches in which if he guesses right, MK takes damage, and if he guesses wrong, he takes damage. But due to Fox being tough to juggle, and MK dying earlier way earlier, Fox's punishments mean more.
You're an idiot. Side b isn't a problem for MK. It's slower than Falco's and you can nado it easily when you see it coming.
 

theunabletable

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You're an idiot. Side b isn't a problem for MK. It's slower than Falco's and you can nado it easily when you see it coming.
Jesus christ, cool it with the negativity lol

I'm not talking about for recovery, I'm talking about for escaping juggles in certain positions. And if Fox pops out of nado, and he happens to be one of the easiest to pop out, he can punish MK REALLY easily because of shine, and his fast fall speed.
 

Pierce7d

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You're an idiot.
You realize that people who actually matter stop reading your post once you get to here, right?

Nobody cares about a nobody calling someone else an idiot. You have no credentials, and your opinion doesn't matter, if this is how you present it. In short, your insults are meaningless, because to most people, you basically don't exist.

If you want to remedy that, try using a real argument. Real arguments come from real people with real intelligence. Until you can do that, you're just nobody. You don't exist.
 

Flayl

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i'd personally actually believe that sonics mu vs him aint bad if u can in fact get that 1 more player LOL (for the record, x espy and..? fairly sure actually those are the only great ones. i remember speed beating DSF but DSF was garbz)
Yeah I was talking about speed even though he hasn't been as consistent lately? D1aos might become the 4th (hype).

But yeah my point was having notable wins doesn't automatically make the matchup even, just not as bad. I can totally believe Fox is up there when it comes to MK, I don't know about even though.
 

DeLux

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Pierce, what was the rationale for ICs vs. Marth being even? Traditionally this matchup has always been seen in ICs favor.
 

NAKAT

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You realize that people who actually matter stop reading your post once you get to here, right?

Nobody cares about a nobody calling someone else an idiot. You have no credentials, and your opinion doesn't matter, if this is how you present it. In short, your insults are meaningless, because to most people, you basically don't exist.

If you want to remedy that, try using a real argument. Real arguments come from real people with real intelligence. Until you can do that, you're just nobody. You don't exist.
Pierce I know you are laying down the logic, but I just got a mean *** paper cut from reading that. Ouch.
 

Pierce7d

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Pierce, what was the rationale for ICs vs. Marth being even? Traditionally this matchup has always been seen in ICs favor.
I also think that the MU is in ICs favor. If it was argued otherwise, I would recommend asking Shaya.

Pierce I know you are laying down the logic, but I just got a mean *** paper cut from reading that. Ouch.
Moral of the story, kids NEED to stop flaming, and speak to other people with respect, especially if they haven't earned any themselves.
 

da K.I.D.

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i'd personally actually believe that sonics mu vs him aint bad if u can in fact get that 1 more player LOL (for the record, x espy and..? fairly sure actually those are the only great ones. i remember speed beating DSF but DSF was garbz)
Yeah I was talking about speed even though he hasn't been as consistent lately? D1aos might be the 4th (hype).
From what I saw of D1aos at Pound, he's got good potential, but needs to be refined. Still, everyone starts like that. I'm interested to see if he's got what it takes to rise up.
dang... I didnt know it was possible to sleep on somebody this hard... but sometimes being unknown is kinda fun.

ill just say that speed is as good as retired now. hes gone.
 

Blacknight99923

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idk I thought that was traditionally marths favor.

at the same time I was never aware of the match up being frequently played recently or really at all.

mike haze matches with top ics are over a year old iirc so I can't really call them valid.


I was under the impression marth had relative easy seperating them while remaining somewhat safe and then ****** and gimping them fairly well.

but I really haven't seen 2 people who know this mu played recently.
 

Pierce7d

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dang... I didnt know it was possible to sleep on somebody this hard... but sometimes being unknown is kinda fun.

ill just say that speed is as good as retired now. hes gone.
How is it sleeping on him if I just said he's got potential and I'm expecting to see good things in the future? Are you implying that despite having little to no major accomplishment means I should be already praising him as a top pro?
 

Seagull Joe

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i dont see how wolf ROB is even lol I agree with the MU chart. like wolf isn't a strong juggler at all..at least not the ones I've played but I've yet to play Kain so I could be waay off (though I have played seagull and choice, though only choice in like 1 friendly lol but still). wolf can't stay in the air long enough to chase ROB, and we can be safe on landing against most of the cast, we only get juggled hard by people with disjoints (ROB's mu with link is hella close for example lol)
Lets play at G6 again if you're going.
 

Coney

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How is it sleeping on him if I just said he's got potential and I'm expecting to see good things in the future? Are you implying that despite having little to no major accomplishment means I should be already praising him as a top pro?
i think he's suggesting that people are sleeping on HIM, not d1aos
 

stingers

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yea i should be there. and I wasn't tryin to hate or anything so sorry if I came off rude but i just dont see how wolf does good in that MU
 

NeoBatou

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Originally Posted by Thiocyanide View Post
I don't understand why people care about low tier MUs.

The characters aren't relevant to begin with. It's like asking how a minor league team measures up to the Yankees.
------------------------------------------------------


So the underdog never wins?

LT still has a solid chance of winning depending on the player really.
If a LT plays another LT, the MU experience still counts.
I've seen LT's dominate HT/MT players.
It is unwise to discredit your opponent, no matter who it is.

As far as the Wolf/ROB MU goes, I give it to ROB. No offense to Wolf players but I think ROB has the slight advantage, but it doesn't mean you can't win against ROB either. It's only a slight MU lead.
 

-Ran

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This chart is all a trick to get you all to waste time debating, rather than getting good at the game by playing with people. =d
 

Conviction

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Through most of this I can't tell if Rizk is trolling :troll:

Yeah you can SH Dair over Dtilt, Fsmash, Dsmash,and first two hits of Ftilt.

I wasn't trying to fill this thread with the MK vs. Fox topic but I can get data since it seems it's happened anyways.
 

NeoBatou

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This chart is all a trick to get you all to waste time debating, rather than getting good at the game by playing with people. =d
Ran!
Long time buddy.
Sorry I still main Captain Falcon.
I"m doing really good through, and I"m placing 15th or higher all the time.
Are you surprised?
 

Judo777

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Wait you think that just because people play the character's means they know the other side of the MU? How many high level foxes has TKD played against as MK? I bet its less than 4 lol. I play sheik, that doesn't mean i know how to play the MU from the other side.

And yes someone did use fox's japanese tier list placement as an argument. I would go back and find it but i don't feel like it. I wouldn't have posted that if no one said it.
 

da K.I.D.

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How is it sleeping on him if I just said he's got potential and I'm expecting to see good things in the future? Are you implying that despite having little to no major accomplishment means I should be already praising him as a top pro?
I like how this kinda indirectly proves my point.
i think he's suggesting that people are sleeping on HIM, not d1aos
^^^^
 

Lenus Altair

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Well for Pit the chart seems pretty reasonable. Nothing that would be more then a 1 point difference from what I've experience...

...except Olimar being even. I find that shocking. I've always felt he had a distinct advantage despite spending a great deal of time learning the matchup.

What where the arguments that lead to Pit v.s Olimar being even? I'm curious.
 

Chuee

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Wait you think that just because people play the character's means they know the other side of the MU? How many high level foxes has TKD played against as MK? I bet its less than 4 lol. I play sheik, that doesn't mean i know how to play the MU from the other side.

And yes someone did use fox's japanese tier list placement as an argument. I would go back and find it but i don't feel like it. I wouldn't have posted that if no one said it.
Note that TKD beat Trevonte in winners.
TKD also spends a lot of time thinking about theorycraft, so he knows some MUs without even having a ton of experience in them.
 

Krystedez

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Lenus you can ask at the BBR matchup chart thread that I created back at the Pit boards, I think I somewhat went over it but if you have specifc questions you can ask them there and hope Olis see it. I know you can also ask them at their character boards to give their opinion at the BBR matchup thread here or at the Pit forums.

Any of the Olimar mains that were aware or contributed to the panelists' decision that would like to speak up are encouraged to describe the matchup at this thread just as well. --> HERE
 

Espy Rose

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How is it sleeping on him if I just said he's got potential and I'm expecting to see good things in the future? Are you implying that despite having little to no major accomplishment means I should be already praising him as a top pro?
I was gonna reply, but Coney and KID already got to it.

i'd personally actually believe that sonics mu vs him aint bad if u can in fact get that 1 more player LOL (for the record, x espy and..? fairly sure actually those are the only great ones. i remember speed beating DSF but DSF was garbz)
Yeah I was talking about speed even though he hasn't been as consistent lately? D1aos might become the 4th (hype).

But yeah my point was having notable wins doesn't automatically make the matchup even, just not as bad. I can totally believe Fox is up there when it comes to MK, I don't know about even though.
X, KID, Speed, D1AOS, Kai, and myself all do just fine against Meta Knight.

And I can guarantee everyone that a majority of these players will admit to Meta Knight being at the very least, a solid counter to Sonic.
 

Conviction

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Here we go. Some details you guys can scan through.

Dealing with Tornado
MK is known to wreck quite a few characters simply by spamming tornado... and, while avoidable, generally, MK's that do spam tornado tend to still do pretty well in a tournament scene. Fox does not succumb to this at all, however. Fox has several options against the tornado:

Dair the center of the attack from the top, leading to every dair followup.
Nair the center of the attack from the top, offering a more lenient hitbox than Dair, allowing for better accuracy, while losing some followups
Shield the 'nado, then Usmash punish the ending lag - Very useful due to Fox's speed, and his fairly strong shield.
Shield-grab the 'nado
Other situational attacks, such as Fsmash, apparently.

While many characters have similar ways of punishing the tornado, not much characters rivals Fox in this way. Fox's SDI alows him to "pop" out of the tornado (much more easily than most of the cast, likely due to his light weight), directly above the center, and dair downward. This only depends on the timing of the SDI, and not on the spacing of the tornado... It varies on how high Fox will actually pop out.. there have been times that I will just seemingly dair right in the middle of the tornado, without seeming to pop out all that much at all... But again, this gives you a spacing directly above the center of the tornado, and only gets you about 2%. Video evidence of this (just in some really old matches of mine) is shown below.

The typed the relative time that escaping of tornado occurs... The first three are teams matches (first two, MK player is Rx-; 3rd, it is Danny...mislabeled video), and the next two are singles matches against Bonesaw..

Watch me at 3:07 and 4:40, and Olimar at 4:05 and 4:31

Watch me at 1:39, 1:52, 2:54, 3:48, 4:01, 4:25 (actually get out twice here...), and 5:20 ; Olimar at 2:45, 3:07, and 5:28

Olimar at 1:25

3:21 and 4:12!!!

2:08!!!, 2:32, 4:21, and 4:41

Keep in mind this is just showing the escaping of tornado on a pretty regular basis. It is possible to escape 100% of the time.

The Dair followup at the end does not always work WHEN THE MK HAS ESTABLISHED SIDEWAYS MOMENTUM. That is, he starts it far to your left, and continues through you until the right. If he tries to zone you, and turnaround (Starts from the left, goes to your shield, then tries to drift back left) the dair is nearly guaranteed UPON HIT by the tornado, since it puts you above the center before the MK has a chance to get away.

Therefore, upone hit by tornado, no Fox should take (most of the time) more than 5%, and should almost always have a good chance to punish it with a dair > whatever....possibly killing the MK.

This makes this move a very risky choice for MK, and one of his worst options in the match.


]Shuttle Loop / Glide attack
Similar to tornado, this is a very spammable move that makes the matchup ridiculous for many characters. It's use is not as limited as tornado, but again, Fox makes it riskier than most characters can.

With Fox on the ground, against a whiffed / shielded Shuttle Loop, Fox can drop shield, and SH Dair the end of shuttle loop, guaranteeing a hit. SH Dair clanks with the glide attack, and continues hitting, overriding that, and if the MK cancels the glide, rather than attack, he is still in position to be Daired...

In the air, it really depends on both characters' spacing and timing. Shuttle loop can beat or trade with Dair (Nair is a better option here, usually), but has to be well-spaced.

Fox should not be in danger of the semi-spike at the top of shuttle loop, because it can actually be reaction-shined ( I realize this sounds ridiculous, but I can land it fairly well, where the shine either stalls me just above the loop, giving a free dair, or the shine hits the MK due to its invincibility frames).

It can also be air dodged on reaction, so it's use is limited.

Shuttle loop's main use (imo) is out of shield, but I do not believe that this should be a huge problem for Fox, I will outline more on this later in this post.

Again, while shuttle loop still has good uses, it is a bit more limited than normal against Fox, because he is able to punish it...hard.


Here are some of Meta Knight's options along with punishments
- Full hop fair (whiffed): Dash into MK and Usmash or dash into MK and short hop fair.
- Full hop nair: Very difficult (although possible) to punish because of its low cool-down (although impossible from block unless maybe when powerblocked). Counterable with a preemptive short-hop dair and it's possible to interrupt it if the opponent does actually commit to it) though.
- Full hop dair (whiffed): Full hop fair.
- Short hop fair (whiffed): Dash usmash, dash attack (dash usmash is better of course). DIFFICULT/UNSAFE/UNLIKELY
- Short hop nair (whiffed): Dash usmash, dash attack.
- Short hop dair (whiffed or blocked): Dash usmash, dash short-hop fair; unblock, dash usmash.
- Dash attack (blocked): Unblock, dsmash.
- Short hop fair (miss-spaced and blocked): Usmash from block. If not "inside" Fox and completely at Fox's backside, unblock and utilt.
- Landing fair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing nair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing dair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing uair (anything): Shield-grab if blocking, anything if not (including moving away because its landing cool-down is very small). If this happens it's probably the opposing player's mistake.
- Dsmash (blocked or whiffed): Dash usmash or unblock, dash usmash. Punish dsmash every time you block it. Be aware that the second hit only has a 4 frame window for usmash to hit it, so it may be hard if it's tippered. Always possible when powerblocked.
- Shuttle loop (back facing Meta Knight): Full hop bair.
- Shuttle loop (facing Meta Knight): Full hop fair/nair.
If there's no time, walk under Meta Knight to usmash him. Dash under him uair works too. If there's really no time at all, block the glide attack. If it's miss-spaced horizontally (too close), shield-grab. If it's miss-spaced vertically (too high), usmash from block.
- Mach Tornado: Usmash or powerblock.
- Ftilt: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).
- Dtilt: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).
- Dsmash: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).


Fox can interrupt certain actions with the following moves:
- Walk grab.
- Dash usmash.
- Dash attack.

Interruptions
Interrupting serves to punish excessive commitment. You must observe how interrupting and punishing affects the opponent's behavior. You should't attempt interrupting too often (as you commit too strongly to interruption attempts), specially usmash which is quite punishable (walk grab is very good though). Interrupting serves mostly to manage the opponent's behavior so it doesn't fall out of control.

Dash attack only from above around 50%. I don't know the exact percentage when a connected Dash Attack is no longer punished with nair or dair, but the opponent can hit Fox out of hit-stun because of Fox's frame disadvantage before certain percentage.

About short-hop fair:
Actions that you can't interrupt are usually whiffs (which are punishable). Meta Knight's forward air is flexible. The opponent can either short-hop fair immediately, or short-hop and fair at the latest possible moment (before it makes Meta Knight land with cool-down of course). Short-hop fair in general is countered by short-hop air-dodge, but you can also bait the ones performed quickly out of the short-hop to punish as they're whiffed, or interrupt the delayed ones before the opponent acts out of their short-hop.

I don't recommend to attempt punishing this whiff too often, as timing and spacing are too strict. Short-hop air-dodge still counters this, which is good.

Don't worry about this until you see it. I'm the only Meta Knight player I've ever seen that delays his short hop fair.

Mach Tornado.
You should shine before landing to wait out Mach Tornadoes. There's stuff you can do like air-dodge into the move's last hit to punish its cool-down or nair/dair into the center of it (nair's easier but both are unreliable as the opponent spaces himself), but safety is usually better.

After blocking this move, you should downsmash if the opponent's not at usmash KO percentage if Meta Knight ends the move right above Fox (priority is given to downsmash to keep usmash slightly fresher since usmash is connected more often). If he's at usmash KO percentage, simply perform it. It's also possible that they land with enough cool-down or a short enough distance from Fox for a dash usmash to reach. If there's no chance of punishment, you can mix-up on the opponent (dair, block, grab in order of usefulness).

Usmash counters Mach Tornado from below too, so you can hit it as it's coming if too predictable, dash and usmash it from below, or maybe even block and immediately usmash it: tip was spread that a decayed Mach Tornado's hitbox is inactive for 11 frames after touching you or your shield, which may be the reason you can smash DI it so often so you don't get caught in it


Note: You can Usmash Mach Tornado so that can be an interruption as well.

Neutrals' Videos

CP Videos

Should I address that flawed "People don't have Fox exp." argument?

Listen it was good for the first 2 months but come on WC has not only TKD but Trevonte as well.

NJ/NY has NAKAT and had Rookie.

MidWest has Zeton.

ATL South has CT and Trump.

TX had Samboner.

Let's get real here about that.
 

NeoBatou

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Here we go. Some details you guys can scan through.


NJ/NY has NAKAT and had Rookie.

MidWest has Zeton.

ATL South has CT and Trump.

TX has MegaFox and had Samboner.

Let's get real here about that.
Zeton....we've had legendary matches in Kansas at No Koast 5.
He's really good....almost won the entire tournament with his Fox.
The guy's a beast. He gives MK players a run for the money I tell ya that.
 

Espy Rose

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I can't argue for the rest, Iblis, but MegaFox hasn't gone up against a Meta Knight, so you can take that out of your list of claims.
 
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