Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

[schmooblidon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems pretty situational considering you'd have to already have the A button held down. If I'm understanding this correctly, you wouldn't be able to do this out of a dash or anything

protip: read the other replies before posting your own.

 

[Kadano]

Powershield-attack stun and pushback comparison

Incoming attack: Falco’s shine. Shielded by Marth with all kinds of shields.

Shield type|N-PSA|Z-PSA|Digital shield|Strongest analog shield|lightest analog shield|Z shield
Shield hitlag|4|4|4|4|4|4
Shield stun|5|11|5|5|11|11
Pushback|130|490|44|44|236|222
Pushback % of digital shield|295%|1114%|100%|100%|536%|504%

Fox’s fresh nair causes 8 frames shieldstun for N-PSA and 19 for Z-PSA, so the estimated factor is 2.3.
(2.3 times the shieldstun, that is quite the drawback … )

Visual pushback comparison:

Hitlag is counted as [iterations of GuardDamage 0 ]−1.
Hitstun is counted including this one frame iteration of GuardDamage .
Pushback is not measured in in-game units as it should be, but in pixels from an arbitrary camera position (because I still can’t read Melee code, yadda yadda).

 

[NJzFinest]

If you guys need a way to setup holding A, try holding A during a wavedash animation


Clever :D

 

[Stratocaster]

Ok I've tried out Z-PS on Falco's lasers. It's not mega easy, but with practice I think lasers can be Z-PS'd with 99% consistency.

The window is big enough that I don't need timing that's too good. I think timing the buttons on the exact same frame is the difficult part. So I looked into doing the hard press too early vs. the z press too early and what happens. What I found is (as expected) if you are early on the hard press than you get regular PS. If you are early on the z press an interesting thing happens though. Frame 1 you put up light shield. Frame 2 and 3 your defending shield goes down and you can be hit, but your reflecting hitbox remains. I've included a pick below. I've confirmed that you CAN BE HIT during this time, and that if you don't hit the laser on frame 1 with your shield it does travel fast enough to hit you during this period. Bottom line is if you are reflecting lasers try to err on the side of z too early, and against attacks z too late. Being perfect every time is ideal, but I think this information is useful. The delayed hard press reflect shield may actually be better than the perfect Z-PS but I'm not sure yet.

 

[Metà]

I have a question relating to stale moves and shield stun. I wanted to test this myself, but I only have debug mode available and afaik stale moves doesn't take effect in debug mode.

Anyway, what I was wondering was, if a move is staled, will it have less shield stun? I'm not sure if shield stun or shield damage is separate from damage dealt or whether it's related. Maybe a combination of both?

Let's say for example, Fox's shine deals 5% damage to an opponent, when it's fresh. It will also deal a set amount of damage to the shield and have a set amount of shield stun. Now let's say you've hit your opponent with a few shines and it is now staled to around 3%. Will it cause less shield stun? If it does, then you could actually theoretically have tighter shield pressure by unstaling moves like shine and n-air. A good way to unstale these moves would be to hit your opponent with a bunch of lasers, for example. Do Foxes that like to laser in neutral actually have better shield pressure when they go in? This has been on my mind for a while, if someone with access to dolphin could help me out that would be awesome.

 

[Stratocaster]

I have a question relating to stale moves and shield stun. I wanted to test this myself, but I only have debug mode available and afaik stale moves doesn't take effect in debug mode.

Anyway, what I was wondering was, if a move is staled, will it have less shield stun? I'm not sure if shield stun or shield damage is separate from damage dealt or whether it's related. Maybe a combination of both?

Let's say for example, Fox's shine deals 5% damage to an opponent, when it's fresh. It will also deal a set amount of damage to the shield and have a set amount of shield stun. Now let's say you've hit your opponent with a few shines and it is now staled to around 3%. Will it cause less shield stun? If it does, then you could actually theoretically have tighter shield pressure by unstaling moves like shine and n-air. A good way to unstale these moves would be to hit your opponent with a bunch of lasers, for example. Do Foxes that like to laser in neutral actually have better shield pressure when they go in? This has been on my mind for a while, if someone with access to dolphin could help me out that would be awesome.

Yes, staled moves have less shield stun. I have checked myself outside of the debug menu. There's even a calculator for it if you want. Hitting a shield does not stale your moves though even though moves are effected by staleness. I'm pretty sure you can't unstale a move by hitting a shield either.

 

[Tags]

So regarding the whole Z-PS thing. How exactly would you buffer holding A while dash dancing? Let's say I want to get away from a bad situation against Falco and reset in neutral. Is there a consistent way of buffering holding A without getting a dash attack or something? And also what would be good times to release A?

 

[Kadano]

If you are early on the z press an interesting thing happens though. Frame 1 you put up light shield. Frame 2 and 3 your defending shield goes down and you can be hit, but your reflecting hitbox remains. I've included a pick below. I've confirmed that you CAN BE HIT during this time, and that if you don't hit the laser on frame 1 with your shield it does travel fast enough to hit you during this period. Bottom line is if you are reflecting lasers try to err on the side of z too early, and against attacks z too late. Being perfect every time is ideal, but I think this information is useful. The delayed hard press reflect shield may actually be better than the perfect Z-PS but I'm not sure yet.


View attachment 37882

These are what I described in the large post as ADT-PS and DAT-PS, by the way. I consider ADT-PS (which you refer to as “delayed hard press reflect shield”) as inferior, though, because of the initial frame of lightshield that gets in the way and might connect with an incoming projectile, thus making it impossible to reflect it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

So regarding the whole Z-PS thing. How exactly would you buffer holding A while dash dancing? Let's say I want to get away from a bad situation against Falco and reset in neutral. Is there a consistent way of buffering holding A without getting a dash attack or something? And also what would be good times to release A?

There are two windows to hold A while DDing that won't trigger any action. The first was already talked about, if you press and release the control stick to start a dash and release the stick instantly (as in you only press it for one frame, maybe for two) and press and hold A immediately after that (next frame), it won't trigger a dash attack. If you get an fsmash you held the stick too long, if you get dash attack you pressed A too late.
Additionally, at the end of the dash start-up animation (you flick your stick and it returns to neutral, and you character dashes then stops and returns to idle) there is a window to press and hold A before the dash stopping animation has finished and before the character returns to idle, and it won't trigger any action. If you get a dash attack you pressed A too early, a jab and you pressed A too late. Since you can dash out of any part of the dash ending animation it doesn't restrict you in any way.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Kadano What about pushback the attacker receives if grounded?
@ DrinkingFood Don't call it dash-startup please, it's just dash. Then during dash there's option to run. Also I think a does nothing only on the 1-4 and the very last frame of dash, the last one not being very practical to use.

 

[TheVmann]

Holding A out of SHFFL works, same for wavedash, dash, and maybe getting up on the ledge.

 

[TheVmann]

Can someone confirm this question for me? Basically, when the GuardOff state happens, is it impossible to go back to GaurdReflect until the Wait state is active again?

 

[Magus420]

On the shield stun and pushback stuff:

Variable Shield Input
Digital/Max Analog = 1
Z Shield = 0.35
Min Analog = 0.30714 (43/140)



Shield Stun = {[floor(Damage) * (Analog Effect + 0.3)] * 1.5} + 2
-- Analog Effect = 0.65 * {1 - [(Analog Shield - 0.3) / 0.7]}
--- Yoshi is unaffected by shield stun
--- NOTE: Due to the way the game calculates the animation speed for the 20 frame stun animation [(Animation Frames + 0.1) / ShieldStun], it causes the actual resulting stun time to be 1 less than calculated shieldstun if:
20.1 / ShieldStun * floor{ShieldStun} >= 20
On full 1.00 shield input that happens with damages of 20,29,40, 49, 58, and 60 for example.

Spoiler

Defender Shield KB = {[floor(Damage) * (Defender Analog Effect + 0.09)] + 0.4} * X
-- Defender Analog Effect = 0.195 * {1 - [(Analog Shield - 0.3) / 0.7]}
-- X = 0.6 for Normal, 1 for Powershield
--- Maximum = 2

Defender (Yoshi) Shield KB = (floor(Damage) * Defender Analog Effect) + 0.4
-- Defender Analog Effect = 0.3 * {1 - [(Analog Shield - 0.3) / 0.7]}
--- Maximum = n/a

Attacker Shield KB = (floor(Damage) * Attacker Analog Effect) + 0.02
-- Attacker Analog Effect = (Analog Shield - 0.3) * 0.1]
--- Maximum = n/a

Spoiler

 

[hectohertz]

how does shield DI interact with ZPS? i understand with ZPS you get significantly more shield pushback than a "normal" PS, does that also increase your ability to shield DI? i suppose i also am wondering if you get different shield DI amounts from a normal PS versus a normal digital shield

 

[Stratocaster]

Magus420 Did you write melee's code?

 

[schmooblidon]

Great post magus!

When I try to find a converter value/equation for Defender N-PS Knockback to Z-PS Knockback I get,

Z-PS KB = ~ 3*(N-PS KB) - 0.8

derived from

N-PS KB = ( z x 0.09 ) + 0.4
Z-PS KB = ( z x 0.271 ) + 0.4

where z = floor(Damage)

But Kadano's labbing don't match that, as Z-PS KB is more than 3 times N-PS KB. What am I doing wrong/missing?

 

[Sebovich]

So let me get this straight, even though it's a powershield, you still get loads of hitstun while z-psa:ING? Regular powershields would in that case be better,and z-ps should be used when facing projectiles?

 

[tauKhan]

Great post magus!

When I try to find a converter value/equation for Defender N-PS Knockback to Z-PS Knockback I get,

Z-PS KB = ~ 3*(N-PS KB) - 0.8

derived from

N-PS KB = ( z x 0.09 ) + 0.4
Z-PS KB = ( z x 0.271 ) + 0.4

where z = floor(Damage)

But Kadano's labbing don't match that, as Z-PS KB is more than 3 times N-PS KB. What am I doing wrong/missing?

Kadano measured distance, not kb though right?

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, the formula is for the initial speed rather than resulting distance.


On Falco's 8 dmg shine I have Marth going from a starting position of 16 (FD's P1 respawn X), and ending at 25.9 for Digital|1.0 PS and at 41.3 with Z|0.35 PS. Distances of 9.9 and 25.3 respectively.

KB on 1.0 shield is 1.12, 0.35 is 2.56857 but gets capped at 2, Marth's ground friction is 0.06 and Max Walk Speed is 1.6 (grd friction gets doubled while force > Max Walk). Friction is included on 1st frame of movement.

1.06 + 1.00 + 0.94 + 0.88 + ... 0.10 + 0.04 = 9.9
1.88 + 1.76 + 1.64 + 1.52 + 1.46 + 1.4 + ... 0.08 + 0.02 = 25.3

The calculated distances also match the actual result. Maybe a camera perspective thing in the image Kadano took making the Z-PS appear more than 3x the distance? Not sure which attack is in the image shown, but Fox's 12 dmg n-air would have them closer together since Z-PS would remain capped while normal gets pushed back more (17.52).

 

[Kadano]

Yeah, the formula is for the initial speed rather than resulting distance.

On Falco's 8 dmg shine I have Marth going from a starting position of 16 (FD's P1 respawn X), and ending at 25.9 for Digital|1.0 PS and at 41.3 with Z|0.35 PS. Distances of 9.9 and 25.3 respectively.

These pictures look like you took them from a console. How did you frame advance for the Z-PS (since frame advance in develop mode is bound to the Z button)? Did you re-map it to a different button?
Also, are the player coordinates built into develop mode? If so, how did you activate them?

The calculated distances also match the actual result. Maybe a camera perspective thing in the image Kadano took making the Z-PS appearing more than 3x the distance? Not sure which attack is in the image shown, but Fox's 12 dmg n-air would have them closer together since Z-PS would remain capped while normal gets pushed back more (17.52).

I’m gonna do it all over again, I noticed during the process of frame collection that my camera angle is oblique, but I thought it wouldn’t matter for distance measuring. It does seem like the right part of the screen is closer to the camera eye than the left part, though, so it seems logical that Z-PS distance would be exaggerated by this.

(Also, thank you so much for posting on the Melee boards again. I was afraid that was a thing of the past.)

 

[Magus420]

I pause buffered the Z-PS and got the same result as doing digital to analog PS (they both cap out at 2 so slight difference in input amount between Z's 0.35 and the light press didn't matter) so I used that to keep the camera in the same place for all 3 snapshots. The stuff at the bottom is something I made that modifies the hardware stats(?) displayed with X+DPadR. Noticed today that apparently I never posted it on SWF, but I'll see about adding some in-game configuration options to it first then do that. Shows player 1's TopN (base point of the character/white '+' under the collision box), Character Velocity, and Controller directional input atm.

 

[kyaputenfarukon07]

PPMD Kreygasm

 

[Kati]

yeah there are a few techniques in pm that require holding A. I've been using wd's and wl's for months now in order to hold the a button without throwing out an attack. It's definitely easy to get used to.

 

[Bones0]

Can you use ZPS to get some sort of insane invisible ceiling glitch? I'm not too sure about how exactly shield pushback is related to the attacker's pushback (if at all), so maybe it doesn't even affect the ICG.

 

[Smish]

ADT-PS happens when you transition from analog shield to digital shield after the first frame of shielding. This usually happens when you don’t depress the shoulder triggers quickly enough and, due to its drawbacks, an input you want to avoid in general. By either slightly depressing the triggers when plugging in your controller or resetting or modifying your controller physically, you can lower the analog distance you need to pass in less than one frame, which helps avoiding ADT-shields.

To clarify, does this mean that "trigger tricking" your controller actually increases the frame window for Z-PSing, or simply makes pressing Z and R/L simulframeously more consistent to avoid ADT-shields?

 

[tauKhan]

Consistency, because no possibility of ADT from R/L only. (You can still ADT by pressing z early)

Also I figured a good way for myself to get the z/R timing down: I try to time it similarly to jc grab, but pressing r instead of x/y. This can work because pressing L/R all the way down usually takes about 2 frames for me. It's obviously controller/player dependent, but try this out if you are having trouble. Just had my first training session, and got very consistent thinking about the timing this way.

 

[UchihaJP]

@ Kadano

Im a sheik main from the Netherlands. Im used to do attacks out of powershields now. But in game I'm still looking for solutions regarding the defensive powershieldgame.

The main problem I face are powershielding moves with multiple hits.

example:
spacies aerials into shine,
fox dair,
falcon nair,
falcon fair into gentleman,
gentleman.

Even if I PS the first hit, the 2nd one often gets me.

http://youtu.be/SXZrKnhfbYw skip to 2:07

He gets me twice with fair gentleman.

Is it possible to do a PS into PS vs these multiple hits without getting hit?
(PS first hit with L, 2nd hit with PS R or ZPS R)

Especially vs a fox with his aerials into shine.
What to do when u ps the first hit?

Hold shield?
shield di during ps?
zps to create distance?
ps into jab to clash?
ps into wavedash? (doesnt seem to work for me)
ps into buffered jump, aerial attack?

Different scenario:
vs falco's dair I manage to do a nps into dsmash(sheik) which clashes with his first shine. After this sequence I find myself stuck in dsmash-animationlag and falco gets me with the 2nd shine Into combo.

Will try a jab or dtilt next time.. but maybe you guys have a solution to this.

(Also great work on the zps find. Managed to do a Zps with marth into fsmashtipper. <3)

 

[S.D]

What guaranteed follow ups can Fox get from a 0% u throw on Captain Falcon assuming full DI left/right before he hits the ground?
Dash u smash? Nair? jab?
If nothing at what percentage can you begin to hit the nair/usmash/regrab options?

Cheers,

 

[fatman667]

Hmmm, would it hurt to put frame advantage on block on everybody's frame data on ground attacks?

EDIT: Frame advantage is active frames subtracted by 1 then add recovery frames, subtracted by your opponent's shield stun. It basically says who can attack again sooner after a blocked attack, I definitely think this will help making frame data easier to read and it's a very important knowledge to have.

 

[Flush 5]

@ Kadano

Im a sheik main from the Netherlands. Im used to do attacks out of powershields now. But in game I'm still looking for solutions regarding the defensive powershieldgame.

The main problem I face are powershielding moves with multiple hits.

example:
spacies aerials into shine,
fox dair,
falcon nair,
falcon fair into gentleman,
gentleman.

Even if I PS the first hit, the 2nd one often gets me.

http://youtu.be/SXZrKnhfbYw skip to 2:07

He gets me twice with fair gentleman.

Is it possible to do a PS into PS vs these multiple hits without getting hit?
(PS first hit with L, 2nd hit with PS R or ZPS R)

Especially vs a fox with his aerials into shine.
What to do when u ps the first hit?

Hold shield?
shield di during ps?
zps to create distance?
ps into jab to clash?
ps into wavedash? (doesnt seem to work for me)
ps into buffered jump, aerial attack?

Different scenario:
vs falco's dair I manage to do a nps into dsmash(sheik) which clashes with his first shine. After this sequence I find myself stuck in dsmash-animationlag and falco gets me with the 2nd shine Into combo.

Will try a jab or dtilt next time.. but maybe you guys have a solution to this.

(Also great work on the zps find. Managed to do a Zps with marth into fsmashtipper. <3)

Dude, that looks so awesome. PS is the future. Can't wait to see the gods hitting them consistently back and forth, some DBZ sh*t.

It seems so difficult to react to your successful PSA with a counter attack. You have to anticipate getting the PS to counter fast enough. Could you have potentially jabbed or Ftilt before the gentleman? I guess it depends on the attacker's hitlag.

Someone posted earlier asking about tourney legality of trigger tricking. I believe it's still illegal, which makes it not worth doing if one plans to compete. Interesting idea about allowing it in order to protect our hands for the long term. What happened to Hax exactly? Are there any downsides in play to the modification?

This seems like a conversation the community really should have if injury risk can really be changed. And for the sheer entertainment purpose of intense PS heavy battles...
and the demise of falco [who Ive been focusing on lately ]

 

[hectohertz]

Dude, that looks so awesome. PS is the future. Can't wait to see the gods hitting them consistently back and forth, some DBZ sh*t.

It seems so difficult to react to your successful PSA with a counter attack. You have to anticipate getting the PS to counter fast enough. Could you have potentially jabbed or Ftilt before the gentleman? I guess it depends on the attacker's hitlag.

Someone posted earlier asking about tourney legality of trigger tricking. I believe it's still illegal, which makes it not worth doing if one plans to compete. Interesting idea about allowing it in order to protect our hands for the long term. What happened to Hax exactly? Are there any downsides in play to the modification?

This seems like a conversation the community really should have if injury risk can really be changed. And for the sheer entertainment purpose of intense PS heavy battles...
and the demise of falco [who Ive been focusing on lately ]

triggertricking (where you start up your controller with a button held in) is completely legal, as its not even a controller modification

trigger-modding (taking out a spring) is legal under the OXY ruleset, which nebulous also uses.

 

[UchihaJP]

Dude, that looks so awesome. PS is the future. Can't wait to see the gods hitting them consistently back and forth, some DBZ sh*t.

It seems so difficult to react to your successful PSA with a counter attack. You have to anticipate getting the PS to counter fast enough. Could you have potentially jabbed or Ftilt before the gentleman? I guess it depends on the attacker's hitlag.

Yeah its crazy, it really pushes the metagame to change.
So far in general its: Attack, Block and Positioning/Spacing.
PSA adds the whole element of Counter to it.
I'm so excited bout all this as I just learned how to do it a few weeks ago.

So far I've learned that you have to observe and make a fast descision right as the PowerShield hits.
Observe with what kind of move you get hit with;
single or multiple hits,
weak or strong move (your own shieldstunlag), if your shieldstun > their hitlag, get ready to anticipate their follow up move -> grab or shine/gentleman for example..
how much of a knockback you receive (distance, sometimes jab or ftilt won't even reach with a big knockback),
how much hitlag the opponent gets (Often they have so much delay your countermove comes out first, yay!)
and from which angle the hit comes from (if he is to space it correctly he can just run/jump away and reposition).

Depending on this you input a countermove, powershieldgrab, wavedash, jump or get ready to input a 2nd powershield.

Looking back at the vid.. I happened to simply mess up vs the fair into gentleman, mostly due to the weird delay and timing..
Powershield the fair-> neutral position, will try out a lot of things vs the following the gentleman.. Yes I think a ftilt/dtilt might work.

I PSA into fsmash/dsmash a few times while he wasn't even close in my range. Misjudged the PowerShield scenario and he punished me for it.

Long story short... Powershielding goes deep and its hard to execute correctly accordingly to the situation.

But IMO it will most definitely push the current metagame.

I'm still clueless vs powershielding multiplemoves though. lol

 

[tauKhan]

@ Kadano What about full analog shield for 1 frame -> Z-PS, so that you would get your shield down first, would that work well for reflecting projectiles? I'm just wondering since not trigger tricking the controller doesn't seem to make z-psing any harder for me.

Also congrats for modship!

Edit: Never mind, the table in your post states that the projectile shield stays active, so there's no advantage.

 

[schmooblidon]

Dudes, ADT-PS is just as big as Z-PS (can even be slightly bigger)! Still has it's other limitations though, but projectiles are arguably the important part.

edit: and its also super easy to do with the trigger trick (hold slightly above click when controller reseting, so just above the click does a big lightshield).

edit2: hmm the 1 frame lightshield makes it literally impossible to reflect slow projectiles

edit3: you know what, that 1 frame lightshield really kills it. you get the z-ps range but not the window.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

my brain is melting

My brain imploded before becoming a chocolate fountain of gelatinous knowledge matter. I switch off to Marth in the Falco MU, and due to the fact; my friend absolutely hates everything about this tech. XD

Edit: Doesn't Roy have identical shield displacement issues to Marth? I've never been able to catch whether that was the case.

 

[Bones0]

During the ground bounces from missed techs, spiking the opponent usually sends them back into the ground, but there is a small window where they are considered grounded and get knocked upwards. Can anyone find out the window/timing for this effect and whether it's affected by landing facing up/down or by which character it is?

 

[dRevan64]

During the ground bounces from missed techs, spiking the opponent usually sends them back into the ground, but there is a small window where they are considered grounded and get knocked upwards. Can anyone find out the window/timing for this effect and whether it's affected by landing facing up/down or by which character it is?

I too wish to know this.

Some random other questions: How many frames does fox have to link drill into turnaround utilt (assuming you land in front of the target) and at what percents can you get a true follow up from a sideb on luigi/icies (for shine sideb combos)

 

[Bones0]

I too wish to know this.

Some random other questions: How many frames does fox have to link drill into turnaround utilt (assuming you land in front of the target) and at what percents can you get a true follow up from a sideb on luigi/icies (for shine sideb combos)

Drill -> utilt will depend on the character, and shine has set KB so it doesn't matter what % they are.

 

[dRevan64]

Drill -> utilt will depend on the character, and shine has set KB so it doesn't matter what % they are.

this is why I shouldn't post fast
for drill utilt I was thinking mostly top 8 but yeah should've specified
shine sideb I'm talking about after side b, there are percents where a follow up is guaranteed and some where it's not and it's kinda wonky
I had a way more complicated question about sideb covering techs from spacies after shine but I can't imagine beginning to answer that one

 

[Bones0]

this is why I shouldn't post fast
for drill utilt I was thinking mostly top 8 but yeah should've specified
shine sideb I'm talking about after side b, there are percents where a follow up is guaranteed and some where it's not and it's kinda wonky
I had a way more complicated question about sideb covering techs from spacies after shine but I can't imagine beginning to answer that one

Oh, I get what you mean. I don't think you can ever followup really if they full DI behind you, but maybe vs. spacies. Again though, it'll depend a lot on the character and DI so there's no simple answer. I'd just recommend testing in Training Mode on no DI vs. various characters to get a feel for around when it will work.