Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

Sycorax

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Shield Damage
Shield Damage = [(floor(Damage) + Shield Damage Param) * (Analog Effect + 0.7)] * X
-- Analog Effect = 0.2 * {1 - [(Analog Shield - 0.3) / 0.7]}
-- X = 1 for Normal, 0 for Powershield
I'm having some trouble with these formulas. Peach's smash bomber does 18 damage and 5 shield damage. This formula would suggest it does (18+5)*.7=16.1 on full analog shield, but when I use your physics display to read shield HP, it shows it dealing 19.88 damage. What's up with this?
 

Magus420

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I get 19.6 (did you shield a frame early?), which would be 28 damage (18+10). Guessing it might apply the shield damage twice for some reason, possibly an oddity with being an article or the way the activation of the move works.

Edit: Tried Falco's laser with shield damage and it also gets 2x the amount from it, so it's something to do with it being an article.
 
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reverie2

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Is jump cancel grab from crouch position the exact same timing as jump cancel grab from run/dash/stand? Jumpsquat->grab on any jumpsquat frame?

EDIT: just tested on 20xx, answer is yes

Another crouch related question... https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/2yjht7/crouching_frame_data/
says you can dash our of squatrv (standing back up from crouch), but this isn't possible with dashbackwards right? I tested it with fox on 20xx.

For the full crouch cancel effect (the one you get from crouching, not just asdi down), is it only possible in squat and squatwait? Can you do it in SquatRV (standing back up from crouch)?
 
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Locke Robster

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Something strange I've noticed about Peach's dash attack is that the strong hit sometimes knocks down at 0% and sometimes it doesn't. I have a feeling it's the first frame or two of Peach's dash attack that actually knocks down at 0%, and the last one or two frames of her dash attack that do less knockback, not knocking down at 0%.

Could someone confirm for me exactly what is going on? It seems so weird that sometimes Peach's strong dash attack hit doesn't know down at 0%.
 

tauKhan

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SquatRV (standing back up from crouch)?
SquatRV doesn't have the kb and hitlag reduction properties.

Something strange I've noticed about Peach's dash attack is that the strong hit sometimes knocks down at 0% and sometimes it doesn't. I have a feeling it's the first frame or two of Peach's dash attack that actually knocks down at 0%, and the last one or two frames of her dash attack that do less knockback, not knocking down at 0%.
Peach dash attack has 2 hits. The first (strong) one has different hitboxes for arms and head. The lower priority arm hitbox won't knock ganon down at 0% while the head hitbox does. The weaker hitbox of the first hit is still stronger than 2nd hit (late) of the dash attack.
 

Sycorax

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I'm trying to do some hitstun calculations with Peach's fthrow and am getting weird results. The calculator says that when Fox is fthrown by Peach in the port closer to 4 at 0% that he should have 20 frames of hitstun, but in game, he has 19. Here's a screen cap of my calculator inputs. Victim's Damage is at 2% because the hitbox on Peach's fthrow does 2% before throwing him. I've double checked everything, and can't figure out what's causing the discrepancy. It's not the ports, I checked that. When Peach is in port 1, Fox has 18 frames of hitstun. Does anyone know what's going on?
 

reverie2

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Does % do anything at all to fox's downthrow? I tested it at 999% vs 0% no DI and got the same result. I wanted to know if you input a certain TDI + tech combination (against fox downthrow), will you end up in an identical position no matter what percent you're at.

Thanks
 

Sycorax

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Does % do anything at all to fox's downthrow? I tested it at 999% vs 0% no DI and got the same result. I wanted to know if you input a certain TDI + tech combination (against fox downthrow), will you end up in an identical position no matter what percent you're at.

Thanks
yes but the effect is minimal because the move has low KB growth and because it sends at 270 degrees initially meaning the knockback velocity that is converted into horizontal velocity by DI is reduced by a factor of sin(18).
 

Sycorax

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I revisited this post by Lucatron recently and noticed his formula is different from Achilles1515 Achilles1515 that he shared with us a few months ago. When I double check both formulas in game, Achilles's formula correctly calculates for stale moves but not charged smash attacks, while Lucatron's formula correctly calculates for charged smash attacks but not stale moves. Achilles1515 Achilles1515 , when you say "smash attack charging are applied later in a separate function" are you referring to the fact that characters hit while charging a smash attack receive more knockback or are you referring to the fact that charged smash attacks do more damage and thus more knockback and that is calculated later?
 

Achilles1515

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I revisited this post by Lucatron recently and noticed his formula is different from Achilles1515 Achilles1515 that he shared with us a few months ago. When I double check both formulas in game, Achilles's formula correctly calculates for stale moves but not charged smash attacks, while Lucatron's formula correctly calculates for charged smash attacks but not stale moves. Achilles1515 Achilles1515 , when you say "smash attack charging are applied later in a separate function" are you referring to the fact that characters hit while charging a smash attack receive more knockback or are you referring to the fact that charged smash attacks do more damage and thus more knockback and that is calculated later?
I was talking about the *1.2 knockback multiplier for getting hit while charging a smash attack.

SmashAttackDamage = {[((frames of charge)/(max possible frames of charge))*(1.3671 - 1)] + 1} * BaseDamage

Let me know if that works.
 

Sycorax

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I was talking about the *1.2 knockback multiplier for getting hit while charging a smash attack.

SmashAttackDamage = {[((frames of charge)/(max possible frames of charge))*(1.3671 - 1)] + 1} * BaseDamage

Let me know if that works.
Yeah, so I use that formula to calculate one frame of charge on Luigi's dsmash. It deals 17.10401 damage. Against Fox at 0%, the knockback calculator says that Fox's launch speed should be 2.259370058, but when I read KB velocity in 20XX 4.05, it reads 2.25595 on the first frame of hitstun. I believe I'm correct in saying this frame already includes one frame of knockback deterioration, which would imply that the original launch speed was 2.30695 (=2.25595+.051). This is using your formula.

When I calculate knockback using Lucatron's formula, it spits out the value shown on 20XX 4.05 on the first frame of hitstun, 2.25595. Strange that it wouldn't include the first frame of knockback deterioration like I would expect. But still, the two formulas don't agree, however, they give accurate predictions on two different accounts.
 
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Achilles1515

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Yeah, so I use that formula to calculate one frame of charge on Luigi's dsmash. It deals 17.10401 damage. Against Fox at 0%, the knockback calculator says that Fox's launch speed should be 2.259370058, but when I read KB velocity in 20XX 4.05, it reads 2.25595 on the first frame of hitstun. I believe I'm correct in saying this frame already includes one frame of knockback deterioration, which would imply that the original launch speed was 2.30695 (=2.25595+.051). This is using your formula.

When I calculate knockback using Lucatron's formula, it spits out the value shown on 20XX 4.05 on the first frame of hitstun, 2.25595. Strange that it wouldn't include the first frame of knockback deterioration like I would expect. But still, the two formulas don't agree, however, they give accurate predictions on two different accounts.
Regarding variables in the knockback formula, use 17.00 for the "unstaled attack damage", and 17.10401 for the "staled attack damage" (one frame of charge with no staling). If you use 17.10401 for both, which is incorrect, it gives you 2.25937 Mm/s instead of 2.25595 Mm/s.

So my formula variables could probably use better labeling.
 
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reverie2

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yes but the effect is minimal because the move has low KB growth and because it sends at 270 degrees initially meaning the knockback velocity that is converted into horizontal velocity by DI is reduced by a factor of sin(18).
So what exactly is the effect that take place when % changes? is it just the velocity prior to reaching the ground? The location you collide with the ground is the same regardless of %?
 

Sycorax

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So what exactly is the effect that take place when % changes? is it just the velocity prior to reaching the ground? The location you collide with the ground is the same regardless of %?
The release velocity is different. For instance, at 0% it's 4.72. At 999%, it's 7.24. Compare that to Fox's fthrow which releases at 1.79 at 0%, and 15.42 at 999%. The first is a factor of 1.5. The second is a factor of more than 8.6.

The place you collide on the ground is dependent on DI and percent. If you do no DI, the location is the same regardless of percent though.
 

reverie2

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The release velocity is different. For instance, at 0% it's 4.72. At 999%, it's 7.24. Compare that to Fox's fthrow which releases at 1.79 at 0%, and 15.42 at 999%. The first is a factor of 1.5. The second is a factor of more than 8.6.

The place you collide on the ground is dependent on DI and percent. If you do no DI, the location is the same regardless of percent though.
But if the only thing that changes with % is velocity, wouldn't that mean you just get to your originally intended destination faster?

So X trajectory DI for 0% will put you in the same location with X trajectory DI at any other % (but arrive at that location very slightly faster at higher %)? Am I missing some other variable?
 
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ridemyboat

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Is there an element of randomness to frame advantage in tech chases? I have a no di falcon CPU (port 2) that I'm down throwing as marth (Port 1) that techs in place. Sometimes I'm actionable 15 frames before falcon, usually I'm actionable 16 frames before falcon, but other times I see 18 frames. My guess is that it has to do with the animation after the throw. I've accounted for staling and percent.
 
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Sycorax

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Is there an element of randomness to frame advantage in tech chases? I have a no di falcon CPU (port 2) that I'm down throwing as marth (Port 1) that techs in place. Sometimes I'm actionable 15 frames before falcon, usually I'm actionable 16 frames before falcon, but other times I see 18 frames. My guess is that it has to do with the animation after the throw. I've accounted for staling and percent.
How are you measuring frame advantage?
 

Sycorax

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The number of frames between the down throw animation finishing for marth and captain falcon's tech in place finishing. So this includes that Falcon is in hitstun from the throw.
When you say you're "accounting for percent" are you talking about dthrowing Falcon at the same percent every time? The only cause I could think to cause this phenomenon is that Falcon sometimes spends more time in the air. The only two things I can think that would cause this are either a change in TDI, which you said you accounted for, or a change in knockback, which could be caused by a change in percent or staleness of the throw. How exactly are you accounting for these things?
 

ridemyboat

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When you say you're "accounting for percent" are you talking about dthrowing Falcon at the same percent every time? The only cause I could think to cause this phenomenon is that Falcon sometimes spends more time in the air. The only two things I can think that would cause this are either a change in TDI, which you said you accounted for, or a change in knockback, which could be caused by a change in percent or staleness of the throw. How exactly are you accounting for these things?
I goofed, I was using dolphin's memory watcher to track frames. Sometimes there is an unlucky poll in it, and a frame is missed. There is no randomness in frame advantage inside melee.

Edit: Sometimes when I get hit or hit someone, a P1, P2, P3 or P4 cursor appears over that someone's head. What determines when the cursor appears? Is it based off knockback?
 
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over the years i've noticed powershielding while already in shield. Is inputting shield DI while the shield is being hit a way to activate a powershield? cause that's what it seems like...
 

Sycorax

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over the years i've noticed powershielding while already in shield. Is inputting shield DI while the shield is being hit a way to activate a powershield? cause that's what it seems like...
If you powershield a projectile on the 3rd or 4th frame of shielding (technically GuardReflect), the next physical attack will be powershielded. That's all that I can think it could be.

Shield DI does nothing for powreshielding. The only criterion is that a hitbox hit your shield during the first 4 frames of shield.
 
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interesting. probably why i see it so often, i reflect a lot of lasers....i react and powershield shine many of them, but it's still weird when it happens because i'm holding full shield lol
 

Stride

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Today I ledge teched a Marth forward smash on the left side of Battlefield out of my up-B (as Marth), and immediately after the tech I ended up grabbing the ledge. I'm fairly certain it was a normal tech and not a walljump tech, but I can't be entirely sure.

I have never seen or heard of this before. Can anyone offer any explanation? Maybe I got under the stage and teched off the bottom side of it, which somehow caused me to be facing right when I turned around after teching and then leave me in or move me into range of grabbing the ledge?
 

-ACE-

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Today I ledge teched a Marth forward smash on the left side of Battlefield out of my up-B (as Marth), and immediately after the tech I ended up grabbing the ledge. I'm fairly certain it was a normal tech and not a walljump tech, but I can't be entirely sure.

I have never seen or heard of this before. Can anyone offer any explanation? Maybe I got under the stage and teched off the bottom side of it, which somehow caused me to be facing right when I turned around after teching and then leave me in or move me into range of grabbing the ledge?
That's freaking awesome LOL
 

Sycorax

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Today I ledge teched a Marth forward smash on the left side of Battlefield out of my up-B (as Marth), and immediately after the tech I ended up grabbing the ledge. I'm fairly certain it was a normal tech and not a walljump tech, but I can't be entirely sure.

I have never seen or heard of this before. Can anyone offer any explanation? Maybe I got under the stage and teched off the bottom side of it, which somehow caused me to be facing right when I turned around after teching and then leave me in or move me into range of grabbing the ledge?
It might have been something similar to this? Was it vanilla Melee or some mod?
Do items get added to the stale Que?
No.
 

Stride

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It might have been something similar to this? Was it vanilla Melee or some mod?
Vanilla PAL Melee. It might have been something like that; I was trying to SDI in and I think (and thought at the time) that I ended up SDIing up and in, which would also suggest that I got underneath the stage.

It shouldn't be possible the same way Falcon's up-B is since Marth can't grab the ledge from behind (unless there's some BF jank that actually makes it possible that I'm not aware of).
Some sort of Battlefield jank seems to be the only reasonable explanation (if not necessarily anything that's related to what happens with Falcon). Either he somehow ended up facing right so he could grab the ledge, or he somehow grabbed the ledge facing the wrong way. I'm speculating that it's the latter, and that getting far enough under/inside the stage allows him to reach the ledge grab area from the back of it (while facing left).
 
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Sycorax

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It shouldn't be possible the same way Falcon's up-B is since Marth can't grab the ledge from behind (unless there's some BF jank that actually makes it possible that I'm not aware of).
Vanilla PAL Melee. It might have been something like that; I was trying to SDI in and I think (and thought at the time) that I ended up SDIing up and in, which would also suggest that I got underneath the stage.


Some sort of Battlefield jank seems to be the only reasonable explanation (if not necessarily anything that's related to what happens with Falcon). Either he somehow ended up facing right so he could grab the ledge, or he somehow grabbed the ledge facing the wrong way. I'm speculating that it's the latter, and that getting far enough under/inside the stage allows him to reach the ledge grab area from the back of it (while facing left).
I could actually imagine it working with him facing the wrong way. The only thing I could think it would be is that you wall jump teched. The wall jump did a similar thing to Falcon's up-b in the video. Falcon can grab the ledge backwards from his up-b, but Marth can't grab it backwards ever. What I think happened was a sort of reverse getting Battlefielded. Marth was still far enough under and into the stage that his forward ledgegrab box was still overlapping the ledge. Then, the wall jump moved him upwards, but the janky BF edge moved him down like it does for Falcon causing him to grab the ledge. That's my best guess. But it's just a guess. It would be incredibly hard to reproduce.
 

ridemyboat

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Is it possible to powershield fox or falco's side b? Space animals don't seem to have any hitlag when it hits you, so does that mean it's a projectile?
 

tauKhan

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To my understanding, fox/falco side b are indeed both projectiles, but they're not reflectable i.e. they cannot be ps'd, the projectile part won't be reflected by shine etc.
 

ridemyboat

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To my understanding, fox/falco side b are indeed both projectiles, but they're not reflectable i.e. they cannot be ps'd, the projectile part won't be reflected by shine etc.
In that case, what happens when they hit your shield during the powershield frames of guardreflect? Do you take shield damage or shield stun or is it able to hit you?
 

Sycorax

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Is it possible to powershield fox or falco's side b? Space animals don't seem to have any hitlag when it hits you, so does that mean it's a projectile?
To my understanding, fox/falco side b are indeed both projectiles, but they're not reflectable i.e. they cannot be ps'd, the projectile part won't be reflected by shine etc.
Fox and Falco's side-bs and Sheik's up-b are articles, not projectiles. Most projectiles are articles, and not all articles are projectiles. "Transcendent" projectiles are not articles. The rest of the projectiles are.

In that case, what happens when they hit your shield during the powershield frames of guardreflect? Do you take shield damage or shield stun or is it able to hit you?
You enter normal shieldhitlag and shieldhitstun. You cannot powershield Fox and Falco's side-b or Sheik's up-b.

Strangely, Fox's aerial side-b is not an article and you can't powershield it. I'm not sure what it is ~_~
 
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