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Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Is Peach Bomber an article/projectile? I remember testing it and it seemed to just go straight through the opponent if they tried to powershield it, but it hits normal shields. I'm wondering if you can attack it to block the hitbox in the same way you can with Illusion, Phantasm, or Sheik's poof.
 
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Sycorax

Smash Ace
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Atlanta, GA
Is Peach Bomber an article/projectile?
It has the article property.
I remember testing it and it seemed to just go straight through the opponent if they tried to powershield it, but it hits normal shields.
What do you mean by this?
I'm wondering if you can attack it to block the hitbox in the same way you can with Illusion, Phantasm, or Sheik's poof.
Since it has the article property, yes you can. http://gfycat.com/ScentedJoyfulAntelope
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,348
Is Peach Bomber an article/projectile? I remember testing it and it seemed to just go straight through the opponent if they tried to powershield it, but it hits normal shields. I'm wondering if you can attack it to block the hitbox in the same way you can with Illusion, Phantasm, or Sheik's poof.
I tried it out, it seems that if the bombers "activation box" or whatever overlaps with a shield on any frame (applies to both normal shield and ps windows ofc), it will prevent the bombers explosion phase from triggering on that frame (or some short period). So peach will just fly through a shield, even if there's other target without a shield inside the shield sphere.
 
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Bones0

Smash Legend
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It has the article property.

What do you mean by this?

Since it has the article property, yes you can. http://gfycat.com/ScentedJoyfulAntelope
I meant that if someone held shield, the attack would trigger, but if you shielded right as Peach passed through you, it wouldn't trigger. Based on what tauKhan said below, I was probably mistaken.

I tried it out, it seems that if the bombers "activation box" or whatever overlaps with a shield on any frame (applies to both normal shield and ps windows ofc), it will prevent the bombers explosion phase from triggering on that frame (or some short period). So peach will just fly through a shield, even if there's other target without a shield inside the shield sphere.
Maybe it happened to poke when I was testing it, or may just be misremembering. Thanks, guys.
 
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ridemyboat

Smash Apprentice
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Aug 13, 2015
Messages
152
Fox and Falco's side-bs and Sheik's up-b are articles, not projectiles. Most projectiles are articles, and not all articles are projectiles. "Transcendent" projectiles are not articles. The rest of the projectiles are.



You enter normal shieldhitlag and shieldhitstun. You cannot powershield Fox and Falco's side-b or Sheik's up-b.

Strangely, Fox's aerial side-b is not an article and you can't powershield it. I'm not sure what it is ~_~
Thanks, this is really helpful. To check my understanding:

Articles: Attacker has no hitlag. Falco's side b, Sheik's-up b.

Projectiles: Usually articles. Additionally powershieldable. Turnips, missiles, lasers

Transcendent projectiles: Projectiles that don't collide, like lasers.

Finally, objects that aren't powershieldable act as though there is no powershield at all, and will either poke or hit your shield. What property does Fox's aerial side-b have that disqualifies it from being an article?
 
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Bones0

Smash Legend
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To clarify the previous statement about Peach bomber, you can in fact shield it if you wait until after the attack is triggered before bringing up your shield. There's at least a 1 frame window after it's activated where you can shield (it won't cause a PS though). That explains how I was able to shield it some of the time, but not if I held. I was just wrong about it having anything to do with PSing.


On a separate note, does anyone know if there is a documented explanation for why dthrows by the ledge send at different angles than on stage?
 
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Sycorax

Smash Ace
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On a separate note, does anyone know if there is a documented explanation for why dthrows by the ledge send at different angles than on stage?
Probably because the thrown player gets bounced off the floor. I know if you stand at the very edge of the stage facing out with Marth and throw Bowser down, then he hits the wall instead of the floor. Sometimes turnips bounce at weird angles when they hit the corners of stages. It's probably nothing more than how corners and collisions interact.
 

Bones0

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Probably because the thrown player gets bounced off the floor. I know if you stand at the very edge of the stage facing out with Marth and throw Bowser down, then he hits the wall instead of the floor. Sometimes turnips bounce at weird angles when they hit the corners of stages. It's probably nothing more than how corners and collisions interact.
Yeah, I mean I kinda figured it had to do with them not bouncing off the stage, but I'm curious how exactly the surface you are throwing them on impacts their KB angle and what throws it applies to. Yoshi's slants and the weirdness of FoD's and BF's edges may prevent/enable certain followups that normally do/don't work.
 

artifice

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multiple hit boxes from the same move both overlap the same character. What one takes effect?

My two theories are (1) they are checked by order (id0 -> id3) so the lower id gets the priority... Or 3-0?. or (2) whichever hitbox is closest to character? Anyone have any insight on this?
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
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Feb 9, 2014
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Hitbox collisions are checked in ascending id order starting from id0 . For each hitbox blocks (shield) are checked first. The order can be very relevant for shield stabbing: If id0 hitbox pokes a shield, while other hitboxes would get blocked, the victim gets shield stabbed.
 

Bl@ckChris

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Due to marths substantial lean in his dash animation, does his hitbox actually change faster than any other character during his sort of pivot/turnaround type of animation?

basically, is marth the fastest character in the game (excluding swd) when turning around?

i'm thinking mostly like...the 5 maybe 7 frames (pivot frame and two/three frames on each side) of the turnaround animation during a dash dance.
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
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Due to marths substantial lean in his dash animation, does his hitbox actually change faster than any other character during his sort of pivot/turnaround type of animation?

basically, is marth the fastest character in the game (excluding swd) when turning around?

i'm thinking mostly like...the 5 maybe 7 frames (pivot frame and two/three frames on each side) of the turnaround animation during a dash dance.
His dash animation does distort his hurtbox greatly. For dash back, it takes him about 3 or 4 frames to move the top of his body out of the way, and then his feet move out of position 1 or 2 frames after that.

One thing that is interesting about this is that this evasion is just about fast as a roll, so instead of rolling, you can try dashing in either direction.
 

Bl@ckChris

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Exactly... That seems suuuper fast. Like I feel like if falcon or fox, despite having faster dashes, don't have that level of hurt box distortion.

Is that true? Or do they actually get further out of the way in those frames?
 

Sycorax

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Fox and Captain Falcon are honestly only slightly worse than Marth. Maybe like 1 or 2 frames to get the same sort of evasion. Marth's initial dash velocity is actually distinctly mediocre, or worse, so it takes him a while to move his feet out of the way. So it sorta depends on what kind of hitbox you're trying to avoid. For example, the distortion might avoid a Falcon's nair in place, but it wouldn't avoid an approaching spacie nair. It might make the nair do a weak hit instead of strong which could be significant.
 

Army805

Smash Cadet
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Aug 7, 2015
Messages
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This is kind of an irrelevant nooby question but it's bothering me so i'll ask it anyways. Shine to use as an example, comes out frame 1. Is frame 1 the frame that you inputted down b, or does the game read the input and then the next frame it comes out and is considered frame 1?
 
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Sycorax

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This is kind of an irrelevant nooby question but it's bothering me so i'll ask it anyways. Shine to use as an example, comes out frame 1. Is frame 1 the frame that you inputted down b, or does the game read the input and then the next frame it comes out and is considered frame 1?
Shine has a hitbox active on the first frame of the move's animation. When you input the shine is another thing altogether. Melee has 3.6-5 frames of input lag (whichever it is in a particular instance is random). So you probably actually pressed down+b several frames before the move starts and is active.
 

Bl@ckChris

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Fox and Captain Falcon are honestly only slightly worse than Marth. Maybe like 1 or 2 frames to get the same sort of evasion. Marth's initial dash velocity is actually distinctly mediocre, or worse, so it takes him a while to move his feet out of the way. So it sorta depends on what kind of hitbox you're trying to avoid. For example, the distortion might avoid a Falcon's nair in place, but it wouldn't avoid an approaching spacie nair. It might make the nair do a weak hit instead of strong which could be significant.
So from "standing to dash animation" he does have the fastest "top half of the body hurtbox distortion" in the game. That's what I'm hearing, although not by much, but it makes sense.

Thank you.
 

artifice

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This is kind of an irrelevant nooby question but it's bothering me so i'll ask it anyways. Shine to use as an example, comes out frame 1. Is frame 1 the frame that you inputted down b, or does the game read the input and then the next frame it comes out and is considered frame 1?
Think about input as happening in-between frames.




detected no new inputs

[Frame0] not shining

detected a shine input

[frame1] Shine frame 1
 
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Sycorax

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Does ASDI down take place on last frame of hitlag, or the frame after? I have seemingly credible sources that say 2 different thigns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RP3sbS7Dm0 2:16
https://smashboards.com/threads/a-g...-teching-and-crouch-cancelling-updated.60218/

Also, if it takes place after hitlag, that means you're 1 frame launched into midair (assuming you started from the ground) right?
ASDI is read from the controller at the last frame of hitlag. It is output at the next frame, the first frame of hitstun. The movement of ASDI is combined with the knockback of the move.
 

artifice

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Does ASDI down take place on last frame of hitlag, or the frame after? I have seemingly credible sources that say 2 different thigns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RP3sbS7Dm0 2:16
https://smashboards.com/threads/a-g...-teching-and-crouch-cancelling-updated.60218/

Also, if it takes place after hitlag, that means you're 1 frame launched into midair (assuming you started from the ground) right?
Just a word on supposed equally 'credible sources'. I think its safe to go with the 2014 video over the 2005 post (unedited). Looking over that post there is a couple small errors. They just didn't have the tools we have now to (easily) get precise frame by frame data. Although if it was a Magus post I may have taken it as gospel regardless x x
 

Army805

Smash Cadet
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Messages
52
Think about input as happening in-between frames.




detected no new inputs

[Frame0] not shining

detected a shine input

[frame1] Shine frame 1
Hmmm okay so for a frame perfect jump out of shine for example it would go:

Frame 0 - Wait (Input the shine)

Frame 1 - Shine comes out

Frames 2 to 3 - Waiting to be able to jump

Frame 4 - Jump starts

So for this, you're inputting the jump while you're still in between 3 and 4? If thats the case then there is kind of an input buffer right? How far is that buffer window?
 
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Sycorax

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Hmmm okay so for a frame perfect jump out of shine for example it would go:

Frame 0 - Wait (Input the shine)

Frame 1 - Shine comes out

Frames 2 to 3 - Waiting to be able to jump

Frame 4 - Jump starts

So for this, you're inputting the jump while you're still in between 3 and 4? If thats the case then there is kind of an input buffer right? How far is that buffer window?
Whether or not the jump buffers depends on how you input it. Tap jumping buffers a jump for 4 frames, but jumping with X/Y does not buffer at all and will only register the input for 1 frame. Most spacie players jump with Y. If they want to start their jump at frame 4, they will have to input the jump on the frame before that. They would have to input it on frame 3.

That's the way it works in frame by frame develop mode. If we're speaking precisely though and talking about how it happens when Melee is run normally, the input on the controller actually occurs 3.6 to 5 frames earlier.
 
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artifice

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So for this, you're inputting the jump while you're still in between 3 and 4? If thats the case then there is kind of an input buffer right? How far is that buffer window?
There is no buffer. Considering polling as happening separate and in between frames is just an easy way of thinking about it because in reality the poling is at the start or at the end of each frame.


That's the way it works in frame by frame develop mode. If we're speaking precisely though and talking about how it happens when Melee is run normally, the input on the controller actually occurs 3.6 to 5 frames earlier.
This variance is totally moot however, as the frames between shine and jump happening visually is 3 frames [frame1 shine, frame4 jump] or 3 frames = .05seconds. and the physical inputs differ in that shine input and jump input are .05seconds apart. and the game receiving your inputs are polled them with a .05second interval (with 2 polls in-between for the other frames)...

Its an interesting tidbit about the input lag, but I feel mentioning it with questions unrelated to input and hardware lag only serves to confuse and convolute.
 
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ridemyboat

Smash Apprentice
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This variance is totally moot however, as the frames between shine and jump happening visually is 3 frames [frame1 shine, frame4 jump] or 3 frames = .05seconds. and the physical inputs differ in that shine input and jump input are .05seconds apart. and the game receiving your inputs are polled them with a .05second interval (with 2 polls in-between for the other frames)...

Its an interesting tidbit about the input lag, but I feel mentioning it with questions unrelated to input and hardware lag only serves to confuse and convolute.
I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying here. Are you saying not to include display lag and input lag together, because we don't react to display lag for jc shine inputs?
 

artifice

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Are you saying not to include display lag and input lag together, because we don't react to display lag for jc shine inputs?
I'm saying.... for example, If you posted on a street fighter forum asking what frame of move X you needed to hit a button in order to get move Y. - their response wouldn't include information on the hardware input buffer for whatever console they were using nor the G2G response time of their T.V. The answer would simply be that frame in which the console needed to have successfully polled for the needed input.
 

ridemyboat

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I'm saying.... for example, If you posted on a street fighter forum asking what frame of move X you needed to hit a button in order to get move Y. - their response wouldn't include information on the hardware input buffer for whatever console they were using nor the G2G response time of their T.V. The answer would simply be that frame in which the console needed to have successfully polled for the needed input.
Gotcha, we're on the same page.
 

reverie2

Smash Apprentice
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May 3, 2015
Messages
158
Is there a way to buffer grab out of either shield stun or landlag of an aerial (and if so, how many frames does it buffer for)? Or do I literally have to wait out of any lag/stun to input grab?
 

ridemyboat

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
152
Is there a way to buffer grab out of either shield stun or landlag of an aerial (and if so, how many frames does it buffer for)? Or do I literally have to wait out of any lag/stun to input grab?
There's no way to buffer grab.
 

Quetzalcoatl

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What is the knockback information for Peach's open parasol hit (3% damage)?
I have looked through the spreadsheet and can't find it. I've already checked and found that the parasol item open hit is different to Peach's.
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
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Messages
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What is the knockback information for Peach's open parasol hit (3% damage)?
I have looked through the spreadsheet and can't find it. I've already checked and found that the parasol item open hit is different to Peach's.
I'm pretty sure it's:
Code:
+-------+-----+-----+-----+----+------+
| Angle | BKB | Dmg | KBG | SD | WDSK |
+-------+-----+-----+-----+----+------+
|    80 |  30 |   3 |  40 |  0 |    0 |
+-------+-----+-----+-----+----+------+
It's in MasterHand but somehow didn't make it into the spreadsheet.
 
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reverie2

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May 3, 2015
Messages
158
1. When you double jab reset opposed to single jab, does double jab prevent them from SDI'ing up and not getting reset?

2. In just regular 1v1 (i think it might be different if multiple characters are involved), if you hit someone rapidly with 2 moves where the 2nd move hits while the opponent is in hitstun from the 1st move, does the hitstun get added together or overridden or something else (eg moves like fox drill, sheik needles, falcon nair)?
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
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Atlanta, GA
1. When you double jab reset opposed to single jab, does double jab prevent them from SDI'ing up and not getting reset?
I'm not sure how it helps, but I know it doesn't prevent SDI.
2. In just regular 1v1 (i think it might be different if multiple characters are involved), if you hit someone rapidly with 2 moves where the 2nd move hits while the opponent is in hitstun from the 1st move, does the hitstun get added together or overridden or something else (eg moves like fox drill, sheik needles, falcon nair)?
This explains how knockback stacking works when you're hit by a move while in hitstun.
http://www.ign.com/wikis/smash-bros-project-m/Knockback_stacking
 

Vestboy_Myst

NJ TO & Peach knitwit
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want to bring up a question i raised months ago that never got an answer:

does anyone know the equation for the vertical component of acceleration / velocity / position for DJL characters like peach, so that we can figure out the best timing between the two jump inputs to reach the highest possible point in the least amount of time? we've all been doing it off of 'feel' since the game came out, it would be good to confirm.
 
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