Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

[Sycorax]

want to bring up a question i raised months ago that never got an answer:

does anyone know the equation for the vertical component of acceleration / velocity / position for DJL characters like peach, so that we can figure out the best timing between the two jump inputs to reach the highest possible point in the least amount of time? we've all been doing it off of 'feel' since the game came out, it would be good to confirm.

I'm pretty sure this question is NP-complete @_@

I know each double jump character has a unique velocity for each frame of their double jump that doesn't seem to have a set pattern and values are rather strange.

Finding a solution would depend on the height of the opponent off the ground as well. As Peach, the timing for the double jump to land dtilt->uair would depend on Sheik's percent and DI.

I can imagine how to write a program that would exhaustively calculate the max height achievable given a certain number of frames. Maybe I'll do that.

 

[ridemyboat]

I'm pretty sure this question is NP-complete @_@

I know each double jump character has a unique velocity for each frame of their double jump that doesn't seem to have a set pattern and values are rather strange.

Finding a solution would depend on the height of the opponent off the ground as well. As Peach, the timing for the double jump to land dtilt->uair would depend on Sheik's percent and DI.

I can imagine how to write a program that would exhaustively calculate the max height achievable given a certain number of frames. Maybe I'll do that.

Seems like overkill, why not just sample some different intervals with the heights in a table?

 

[tauKhan]

When you double jab reset opposed to single jab, does double jab prevent them from SDI'ing up and not getting reset?

Jab reset happens if the victim lands before DownDamage ends. I believe the second jab resets the DownDamage. If the victim falls fast enough and doesn't SDI up the second jab, then the victim can be potentially lower when the second DownDamage starts than he was after the SDI'd first jab. That can allow double jab reset to work where single jab wouldn't have reset.

 

[Sycorax]

Seems like overkill

I'm pretty sure I can write just one for loop that will find the max height for a given number of frames.

 

[reverie2]

Jab reset happens if the victim lands before DownDamage ends. I believe the second jab resets the DownDamage. If the victim falls fast enough and doesn't SDI up the second jab, then the victim can be potentially lower when the second DownDamage starts than he was after the SDI'd first jab. That can allow double jab reset to work where single jab wouldn't have reset.

Is it safe to say that in general it's harder to escape double jab reset than it is single jab reset? Or are there too many factors involved.

If you SDI only the first jab and not the second, is it common that you escape the reset anyway?

 

[tauKhan]

Is it safe to say that in general it's harder to escape double jab reset than it is single jab reset? Or are there too many factors involved.

I wouldn't say so, since it's usually not harder to SDI the 2nd jab instead of the first, it's just a guessing game. Also in some cases SDI (or even ASDI) on either of the jabs is enough, in which case double jabbing of course makes escaping easier.

 

[Bones0]

I think most Sheiks use the second jab to make it easier to react to the SDI and also prevent the opponent from immediately counterattacking by abusing the DownDamage hover state. So like if Sheik only jabs a spacie once, they can SDI it up and shine her. The second jab either prevents the shine (because jabbing them out of the air puts them in stun) or is strong enough to knockdown/combo into ftilt or dsmash.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

How many frames do neutral getup and roll cover the ledge for respectively? I know that roll covers more, but I don't know the exact data and I'm having trouble testing it.

 

[Sycorax]

How many frames do neutral getup and roll cover the ledge for respectively? I know that roll covers more, but I don't know the exact data and I'm having trouble testing it.

They are a little different for each character. They cover the ledge for the entire duration of the animation except ledge jumps. You can look up the frames here.

 

[Mr Snak3_]

How quickly do shields come out? and how long do they take to go down?

 

[Sycorax]

How quickly do shields come out? and how long do they take to go down?

They come out frame 1. How long it takes them to come down is different for each character. You can find the frames in Mew2King's compendium which you can find in the Melee Library.

 

[reverie2]

They are a little different for each character. They cover the ledge for the entire duration of the animation except ledge jumps. You can look up the frames here.

So even if the character ledge rolls, and you see the character present on the stage, it still prevents people from grabbing ledge until the entire animation finishes?

 

[tauKhan]

How quickly do shields come out? and how long do they take to go down?

To add to what #SplitsOnTrees said, shield is full size immediately when initiated, even though it's invisible and you can only see the ps bubble at the beginning. Shield stops protecting you immediately when you release it, but it takes a while for you to be fully actionable after. Also shield coming up is more complicated for Yoshi.

 

[Sycorax]

So even if the character ledge rolls, and you see the character present on the stage, it still prevents people from grabbing ledge until the entire animation finishes?

Yep. That's why you see people do it to edge guard so much.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Can anyone refer me to where I can find air acceleration values for Melee? I've found it for brawl, smash 4, and 64, but I can't seem to find this for melee. This is somewhat related to frames so I thought I'd ask here. Note, this is not air speed I'm talking about.

 

[Sycorax]

Can anyone refer me to where I can find air acceleration values for Melee? I've found it for brawl, smash 4, and 64, but I can't seem to find this for melee. This is somewhat related to frames so I thought I'd ask here. Note, this is not air speed I'm talking about.

Here is a download link to a spreadsheet that is the result of several people's work, StrongBad, Toomai, Kadano, and me. In it, there is a sheet labeled Char Values. Scroll to the right to find a section of columns with stuff like Gravity, Air Mobility, Fall speeds, etc. There is also a section with information about jumps, particularly analog jumps which you may find useful depending on what you're researching. I link you my personal version because the older versions have mistakes on this sheet. I've also added some helpful notes (see the red triangles in the top right corners of cells).

 

[tauKhan]

Due to marths substantial lean in his dash animation, does his hitbox actually change faster than any other character during his sort of pivot/turnaround type of animation?

basically, is marth the fastest character in the game (excluding swd) when turning around?

i'm thinking mostly like...the 5 maybe 7 frames (pivot frame and two/three frames on each side) of the turnaround animation during a dash dance.

( Sycorax )
Isn't Sheik's dash back superior to Marth's in this respect? She leans a lot too and has higher initial dash velocity. Her dash acceleration is also twice the acceleration Marth has, which is relevant when dashing back with initial velocity to the opposite direction.

 

[Sycorax]

( Sycorax )
Isn't Sheik's dash back superior to Marth's in this respect? She leans a lot too and has higher initial dash velocity. Her dash acceleration is also twice the acceleration Marth has, which is relevant when dashing back with initial velocity to the opposite direction.

I would still say Marth's is better. Just comparing the two next to each other, Marth bends over faster whereas Sheik takes a little longer to get in that position. Marth also bends over farther than Sheik in these initial dash frames. Sheik's legs stick back farther than Marth's too.

I just compared the first 4 frames of dash since we're talking about it as an alternative to rolling.

 

[artifice]

yeee def marths IMO. its all about the distance they put between them and their center ECB - just consider it root motion. Marth dash dancing is practically pivoting around his back foot each time he turns.

edit: but w/ marth, tryna dash the way your facing already - not as good tho prolly.

 

[Sefthuko]

Can someone explain to me how buffered shield drops work? All I did was hold directly down when my shield disappeared after a Marth FSmash and I did a shield drop! No crazy analog diagonal input or anything. I believe it has something to do with hitstun or shieldstun.

I learned about buffering them in the post: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/2vl7s4/buffer_shielddrop_during_shieldstun_and_other_lag/

I've also been looking at phanna's post that has all shield stun / hit stun values but haven't figured it out: https://smashboards.com/threads/frames-of-hitlag-and-shield-stun-12-chars-done.111814/

EDIT: Here's a post detailing more about the topic
https://smashboards.com/threads/official-ask-anyone-frame-things-thread.313889/page-17#post-18494208

 

[tauKhan]

Shield drop input is active for 6 frames when you start holding down. While spot-dodge does take priority over shield drop, spot-dodge is only active for 4 frames. So if your shield comes up on frame 4-5 of you starting to hold down on control stick, you'll shield drop on frame 5-6 if you're holding strongly down.

Note that from some action states you can spot-dodge directly where from others you have to shield first, and that can alter how hard it's to buffer shield drop. For example, you can't spot-dodge directly out of regular landing animation (after empty jump or auto-cancel for instance). This means that if you hold strong down and shield comes up on frame 4, you'll drop frame 5. However after aerial attack lag, if you're holding down and shield trigger and become actionable on the 4th frame, you'll end up spot-dodging.

 

[Army805]

What exactly factors in to how much momentum you have in the air after a dash, forward analog jump w/ full drift? Is the any info on the aerial speeds each character has after a dash jump? Peaked my interest when looking into covering tech rolls on reaction with aerials with different characters.

 

[Sycorax]

What exactly factors in to how much momentum you have in the air after a dash, forward analog jump w/ full drift? Is the any info on the aerial speeds each character has after a dash jump? Peaked my interest when looking into covering tech rolls on reaction with aerials with different characters.

The factors are dash velocity, analog jump benefits, and % ground momentum retained when you ground jump. Once you're in the air, air mobility, air friction, and max air speed stuff takes over.

They could program all this stuff but couldn't make G&W l-cancel.

 

[reverie2]

If a move sends an opponent into tumble if opponent is standing, will the exact same move (same hitbox,staleness, and everything) hit opponent into tumble if they're in midair or if they're laying down (missed tech)?

Same question if the move DOESN'T send them into tumble if opponent is standing, will they also not be sent into tumble if they're in midair/laying down

 

[Sycorax]

If a move sends an opponent into tumble if opponent is standing, will the exact same move (same hitbox,staleness, and everything) hit opponent into tumble if they're in midair or if they're laying down (missed tech)?

Same question if the move DOESN'T send them into tumble if opponent is standing, will they also not be sent into tumble if they're in midair/laying down

Yes

Yes

 

[tauKhan]

If a move sends an opponent into tumble if opponent is standing, will the exact same move (same hitbox,staleness, and everything) hit opponent into tumble if they're in midair or if they're laying down (missed tech)?

Same question if the move DOESN'T send them into tumble if opponent is standing, will they also not be sent into tumble if they're in midair/laying down

Whether or not you go into tumble depends purely on how hard you get hit, with one exception: If you're in the missed tech animation, lying on the ground after or in "jab reset stun" already (DownDamage), you'll be put into DownDamage instead of tumble hitstun if you get hit by a hitbox that does less than 7% dmg. So the answer to the first question (if they're laying on the ground) is yes if the hitbox does >= 7%, no otherwise. For example, that's why a staled falco shine sometimes doesn't send an opponent lying on ground away in normal tumble hitstun, but "jab resets" instead because it did <7%.

 

[Y-L]

Does anyone know exactly what the game checks for to perform each tilt move from the wait action state? Or alternatively the check for an aerial A move from the fall action state?

I'm trying to figure out what causes the radial patterns in @Kadano s input maps. I know that the smash attacks go out radially due to interpolation of points outside the games internal radius but I'm not sure what the implementation is inside the games internal radius.

 

[reverie2]

Does hitting shy guys unstale moves?

 

[tauKhan]

Does hitting shy guys unstale moves?

No

 

[reverie2]

For ASDI, does tilting your stick halfway between the center of stick and the shell equate to same input as tilting your stick all the way towards the shell? Does half distance toward the controller shell even count for ASDI input or does it need to be full way? Asking this for both c stick and analog stick

 

[Sycorax]

For ASDI, does tilting your stick halfway between the center of stick and the shell equate to same input as tilting your stick all the way towards the shell? Does half distance toward the controller shell even count for ASDI input or does it need to be full way? Asking this for both c stick and analog stick

No. ASDI is analog. You have to tilt it a certain amount, and I think those amounts are different for each stick. It's something like at least 80% of the way for cstick and maybe 70% for control stick. Below that, you won't get ASDI. Above that, you'll get fractional ASDI.

We should rename this thread to "Reverie2 Asks...", LMAO

 

[reverie2]

No. ASDI is analog. You have to tilt it a certain amount, and I think those amounts are different for each stick. It's something like at least 80% of the way for cstick and maybe 70% for control stick. Below that, you won't get ASDI. Above that, you'll get fractional ASDI.

We should rename this thread to "Reverie2 Asks...", LMAO

lol we should...

Hmm I actually just found something in my notes that says
SDI: 6.00 maximum distance
ASDI: 3.00 maximum distance
SSDI: 3.96 maximum distance
SASDI: 1.98 maximum distance

So I guess I didn't pay attention to the "maximum" keyword then. Does regular SDI have fractional distance as well? Im guessing no because when you smash the stick it has to go full way?

And one more ASDI related question... Is amsah teching from standing position a 1 frame input? You have to either press L/R 20 frames prior to hitlag (which means u 'll shield and not get amsah tech) OR do it during hitlag but there's a 1 frame window (the frame right before ASDI input is read)?

 

[Sycorax]

So I guess I didn't pay attention to the "maximum" keyword then. Does regular SDI have fractional distance as well? Im guessing no because when you smash the stick it has to go full way?

There is fractional SDI. I know for a fact that it can between 70% and 100% of 6mm depending on the stick's position when the game reads the input.

And one more ASDI related question... Is amsah teching from standing position a 1 frame input? You have to either press L/R 20 frames prior to hitlag (which means u 'll shield and not get amsah tech) OR do it during hitlag but there's a 1 frame window (the frame right before ASDI input is read)?

Basically yes. The only "exception" I can think of is you could press L/R, let go, and then get hit during the drop shield animation.

 

[tauKhan]

The only "exception" I can think of is you could press L/R, let go, and then get hit during the drop shield animation.

To prevent shielding the hit, you could also input anything that takes priority over shield in wait, like spot-dodge or grab for example. I think amsah teching is almost never better than shielding though.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

When characters transition into jumpsquat from dash or run, is the velocity during the sliding jumpsquat perfectly conserved from the dash/run?

 

[Sycorax]

When characters transition into jumpsquat from dash or run, is the velocity during the sliding jumpsquat perfectly conserved from the dash/run?

Traction is applied each frame of jumpsquat. Upon entering the air, a fraction of your speed is retained, ranging between .7 and 1 depending on character. Analog jump benefits are incorporated on the first airborne frame too. There is also a max horizontal jump speed for each character. You will decelerate to this value if your jump speed is over this value. I can't remember if analog jump benefits get added on to this max speed or not.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Sycorax Thanks, don't worry about initial airborne speed. I was just confused about jumpsquat.

 

[reverie2]

Let's say there's a fox hanging on the ledge. The sheik upb's so that before the poof, his upb hitbox can hit the fox, and tries to angle the 2nd jump of sheik's upb point blank (directly horizontal) to hang on the ledge.

If fox does a ledge stand (34 frames) at a good timing, can he dodge both the hitbox, and prevent the sheik from grabbing ledge? And if so, does anyone know how lenient the timing is to do the ledge stand?

 

[Sycorax]

tries to angle the 2nd jump of sheik's upb point blank (directly horizontal) to hang on the ledge.

What do you mean by this?

 

[reverie2]

What do you mean by this?

So sheik's upb has 2 jumps right. The first jump takes sheik adjacent to ledge (right next to the fox hanging on it). Then the sheik poofs, and points directly towards ledge (making sheik not move at all since he's already adjacent to ledge). The fox is trying to find the best time to do a ledge stand so he can both dodge the poof hitbox, and prevent sheik from hanging to the ledge (if such a timing exists...)