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Offical Pit Match Up Thread: Looking for Assistance!
- Thread starter Nitrix
- Start date
Nitrix
Smash Ace
Week Three: Bowser
What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
Do you feel Pit has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Pit's game?
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
Do you feel Pit has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Pit's game?
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
MysteriousSilver
Smash Ace
Watch out for: UpB OoS.
But you knew that.
Don't we have a chaingrab on him?
That's pretty much all I got. Not much Bowser experience.
But you knew that.
Don't we have a chaingrab on him?
That's pretty much all I got. Not much Bowser experience.
Pit´s favour.. obviously. lol
You can CG him, gimp his recovery with your shield and spam the hell out of Pit.
Watch out for his Up-B OoS and his Side-B (His Fair is one of his best aerials if i remember right)
That´s it for now folks.
60:40 or even better ~
You can CG him, gimp his recovery with your shield and spam the hell out of Pit.
Watch out for his Up-B OoS and his Side-B (His Fair is one of his best aerials if i remember right)
That´s it for now folks.
60:40 or even better ~
Katana_koden
Smash Ace
Pit slides too far for his grab release to tilts... so that's even better for us.
Katana_koden
Smash Ace
thanks for the conformation. I asked on the bowser boards and didn't get much.
Admiral Pit
Smash Hero
ooo, Bowser stuff, I gots a lot of Bowser stuff. Thankfully, I kept it saved and slightly updated somewhere... Don't expect everything to be completely accurate...
Intro: The King of Koopas is the heaviest character in the game. Where comes his great armor and moderate power comes the price of which he is somewhat slow, but moderately fast for a heavyweight, believe it or not. Pit may have a very slight advantage, but if the Pit doesn't know how to deal with Bowser, he may have more problems than he's asking for. Pit does have a bit of an edge in some areas.
Range/Priority
Bowser does have a few moves that can outrange Pit, like F-tilt and F-air. These easily outprioritize Angel Ring, along with an airborne Bowser Side-B that can do the same thing. Bowser generally has slightly more range than Pit, allowing Pit to have not too much difficulties approaching compared to what some other characters, especially Marth, can do to Pit.
One should note that Bowser's F-air can be shorthopped without the landing lag if Bowser F-airs automatically upon jumping, so Bowser may be a bit quicker than some think.
Bowser Hit-Boxes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkMlsPV_p-8
Weight/Power
As said before, Bowser is really big and heavy (the heaviest in the game), and add that with Pit's lower than average KO ability, so Bowser could live quite a while. Thankfully Bowser's big, so he's an easy to hit due to his size, especially with arrows.
Now, we can do an F-throw chain on Bowser around 40%, but do keep in mind that Bowser could escape using Up-B if the Pit doesn't CG quickly enough. This usually can occur after your 2nd F-throw. If you can predict a Bowser that may do this, you may cancel the Chaingrab, let the Bowser do Up-B, and attack again.
Camping
Pit wins this obviously, where Bowser is a big target, limited to a fire breath semi-projectile, Bowser would have to approach. Bowser's ledge game isn't that bad at all, if you ask me, and I should know this, since I use Bowser too.
Speed
Pit is obviously faster, and for a heavy weight, Bowser isn't completely slow as some people think.
For the attack speed, Bowser does have some quick moves, some being Jab, and F-air.
Bowser's Defenses and Grabs
One of the moves you really need to watch out for is Bowser's Up-B. It's one of his fastest moves, and one of the best OOS (out of shield) moves in the game. It has invincibility frames too, and does decent at KOing.
Normally, SH N-airs may work on some large heavy chars, but it's not as easy with Bowser having range, his firebreath and of course, Up-B OOS. It's really the Up-B OOS that Bowser could use, even more so than a shieldgrab.
Speaking of grabs, all of Bowser's grab are average at damage, 12% from D-throw, 10% from F-throw, 10% from B-throw, and 10% from U-throw.
Also, Bowser has a nice Grab Release game. The way it works is because Bowser's frames from an opponent escaping his grab are less than the frames of how long it takes a character to move when they have broken free from a grab. (Bowser's 20 frames to the opponent's 30 frames, I think), giving Bowser a small amount of time to react and perform his next move.
The link to the list is located here.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193617
As you can see, compared to many of the other characters, Pit is very resistant to his Grab release game (Poor Wario), but still that doesn't mean that you can get careless. The Air release to F-air can be a killing tactic when your damage is high if you struggle. Technically, without struggle, Pit will be ground released, unlike MK and other smaller chars.
Edgeguarding/Gimping, Bowser to Pit
Edgeguarding and Gimping, for Bowser to Pit, Bowser's F-air has great range, and can be good when he's pursuing a Pit, supposingly if the Pit isn't shooting arrows while recovering. B-air from Bowser should be stronger in terms of KOing not just because the average Bowser uses F-air quite a bit, and could be stale.
If Pit is forced to using Up-B, he needs to watch out. One single touch of a Fire breath could gimp Pit like that. A Bowser could go to the ledge and aim the flames downward, and that can stop a bottom approach from the stage. You can either try recovering high, or fly to the other side of the stage if the stage you're on grants you that capability.
As for the ledge, there are occasional times where a Bowser will go near the ledge and throw in a Bowser Bomb. The Bowser Bomb can allow Bowser to grab the ledge if he isnt too far from it, and do damage to you if you get close. However, if you edgehog a Bowser quickly, that's an instant stock loss for Bowser.
Edgeguarding/Gimping, Pit to Bowser
For Pit to Bowser, Bowser will have some difficulty getting back up with his limited recovery. He has a midair jump and his Up-B, very poor on recovering vertically. Pit can shoot arrows at him to give him a bit more damage and knock him back a bit. You can Mirror Shield his Up-B. Try getting close and horizontal with Bowser and his Up-B.
The Mirror Shield Gimp should be able to help Pit KO Bowser quickly, which will make up for Pit's poor KO power against Bowser's weight. If you think you can't land the Mirror Shield gimp, you can use aerials instead, not just to try to gimp em, but to do more damage, in case Bowser does make it back. Just remember Bowser isn't completely helpless when recovering, but he is vulnerable if he Up-Bs at a high elevation due to the Up-B landing lag.
If you do approach him quickly, be cautious of a possible F-air, Side-B (Can be a Bowsercide depending on how much stock and % you and Bowser have), or airdodge.
Stage CPs/Bans
As far as stages go, the old stage CP/banning data for Pit can be found here.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206886
Note that the list is old and is NOT up to date as of now.
Counterpicks Known:
-FD: Great for Pit, mainly due to Pit having plenty of room to camp, while at the same time, Pit has many of his recovering options, which do include gliding under the stage and to the other side. This is generally Pit's "Big" playground.
-Lylat: The tilting stage messes up Bowser's recovery more than it does Pit, and Pit can still recover by gliding under the stage. The tilting stage can also interfere with the grab release game.
Bans Known:
-Battlefield: This is Bowser's best neutral stage, and is a small one too, which means there is less room for Pit to run around. Regardless of which u can glide and fly under the stage, Bowser can simply approach you quicker since the stage is small, generally not much room to camp on.
-Norfair: Even though Norfair may not be even available from the start, but if you are ever taken here, know that Bowser simply can live much longer here with the supporting platforms, and lava can help him live even further. Our chaingrab against him is limited with the small platforms. Not much more is known.
-Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
As you know, Pit is bad on this place and is his worse neutral. He can't glide under the stage, and Shy Guys can block arrows.
When playing a Bowser here, like BF, there is not much room for Pit to go around and camping. With the Shy guys around, the camping effectiveness is lowered even more. Also, since Pit can't fly under the stage, if Pit's forced to use Up-B, he really loses the "under the stage" option and has a higher chance of getting gimped by Bowser's fire breath.
More Stage research may be needed.
The matchup ratio has been ranged from 60-40 Pit to 55-45 Pit, mostly leaning towards 55-45 Pit.
Synopsis
60:40 Pit's advantage
The matchup favors Pit, not only because Pit has his projectile against the big, slow target, but him being able to gimp Bowser fairly well and the F-throw CG being really effective against Bowser and other pressuring tactics (camping) make it hard for Bowser to do things.
Now, Bowser does outrange Pit just a bit, and has some good defenses and is really heavy, but Pit can use that weight against him (again, the CG). A skilled defensive Pit will have easy times against Bowser for the most part. Even an offensive Pit that knows about Bowser's defensive capabilities can pressure Bowser, too, but being reckless can be a bad idea.
Again, DON'T expect everything to be completely accurate, as no one's perfect, but be glad that you got something, better than nothing, sigh, but I know I'm goin to be bashed anyways...
Intro: The King of Koopas is the heaviest character in the game. Where comes his great armor and moderate power comes the price of which he is somewhat slow, but moderately fast for a heavyweight, believe it or not. Pit may have a very slight advantage, but if the Pit doesn't know how to deal with Bowser, he may have more problems than he's asking for. Pit does have a bit of an edge in some areas.
Range/Priority
Bowser does have a few moves that can outrange Pit, like F-tilt and F-air. These easily outprioritize Angel Ring, along with an airborne Bowser Side-B that can do the same thing. Bowser generally has slightly more range than Pit, allowing Pit to have not too much difficulties approaching compared to what some other characters, especially Marth, can do to Pit.
One should note that Bowser's F-air can be shorthopped without the landing lag if Bowser F-airs automatically upon jumping, so Bowser may be a bit quicker than some think.
Bowser Hit-Boxes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkMlsPV_p-8
Weight/Power
As said before, Bowser is really big and heavy (the heaviest in the game), and add that with Pit's lower than average KO ability, so Bowser could live quite a while. Thankfully Bowser's big, so he's an easy to hit due to his size, especially with arrows.
Now, we can do an F-throw chain on Bowser around 40%, but do keep in mind that Bowser could escape using Up-B if the Pit doesn't CG quickly enough. This usually can occur after your 2nd F-throw. If you can predict a Bowser that may do this, you may cancel the Chaingrab, let the Bowser do Up-B, and attack again.
Camping
Pit wins this obviously, where Bowser is a big target, limited to a fire breath semi-projectile, Bowser would have to approach. Bowser's ledge game isn't that bad at all, if you ask me, and I should know this, since I use Bowser too.
Speed
Pit is obviously faster, and for a heavy weight, Bowser isn't completely slow as some people think.
For the attack speed, Bowser does have some quick moves, some being Jab, and F-air.
Bowser's Defenses and Grabs
One of the moves you really need to watch out for is Bowser's Up-B. It's one of his fastest moves, and one of the best OOS (out of shield) moves in the game. It has invincibility frames too, and does decent at KOing.
Normally, SH N-airs may work on some large heavy chars, but it's not as easy with Bowser having range, his firebreath and of course, Up-B OOS. It's really the Up-B OOS that Bowser could use, even more so than a shieldgrab.
Speaking of grabs, all of Bowser's grab are average at damage, 12% from D-throw, 10% from F-throw, 10% from B-throw, and 10% from U-throw.
Also, Bowser has a nice Grab Release game. The way it works is because Bowser's frames from an opponent escaping his grab are less than the frames of how long it takes a character to move when they have broken free from a grab. (Bowser's 20 frames to the opponent's 30 frames, I think), giving Bowser a small amount of time to react and perform his next move.
The link to the list is located here.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193617
As you can see, compared to many of the other characters, Pit is very resistant to his Grab release game (Poor Wario), but still that doesn't mean that you can get careless. The Air release to F-air can be a killing tactic when your damage is high if you struggle. Technically, without struggle, Pit will be ground released, unlike MK and other smaller chars.
Edgeguarding/Gimping, Bowser to Pit
Edgeguarding and Gimping, for Bowser to Pit, Bowser's F-air has great range, and can be good when he's pursuing a Pit, supposingly if the Pit isn't shooting arrows while recovering. B-air from Bowser should be stronger in terms of KOing not just because the average Bowser uses F-air quite a bit, and could be stale.
If Pit is forced to using Up-B, he needs to watch out. One single touch of a Fire breath could gimp Pit like that. A Bowser could go to the ledge and aim the flames downward, and that can stop a bottom approach from the stage. You can either try recovering high, or fly to the other side of the stage if the stage you're on grants you that capability.
As for the ledge, there are occasional times where a Bowser will go near the ledge and throw in a Bowser Bomb. The Bowser Bomb can allow Bowser to grab the ledge if he isnt too far from it, and do damage to you if you get close. However, if you edgehog a Bowser quickly, that's an instant stock loss for Bowser.
Edgeguarding/Gimping, Pit to Bowser
For Pit to Bowser, Bowser will have some difficulty getting back up with his limited recovery. He has a midair jump and his Up-B, very poor on recovering vertically. Pit can shoot arrows at him to give him a bit more damage and knock him back a bit. You can Mirror Shield his Up-B. Try getting close and horizontal with Bowser and his Up-B.
The Mirror Shield Gimp should be able to help Pit KO Bowser quickly, which will make up for Pit's poor KO power against Bowser's weight. If you think you can't land the Mirror Shield gimp, you can use aerials instead, not just to try to gimp em, but to do more damage, in case Bowser does make it back. Just remember Bowser isn't completely helpless when recovering, but he is vulnerable if he Up-Bs at a high elevation due to the Up-B landing lag.
If you do approach him quickly, be cautious of a possible F-air, Side-B (Can be a Bowsercide depending on how much stock and % you and Bowser have), or airdodge.
Stage CPs/Bans
As far as stages go, the old stage CP/banning data for Pit can be found here.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206886
Note that the list is old and is NOT up to date as of now.
Counterpicks Known:
-FD: Great for Pit, mainly due to Pit having plenty of room to camp, while at the same time, Pit has many of his recovering options, which do include gliding under the stage and to the other side. This is generally Pit's "Big" playground.
-Lylat: The tilting stage messes up Bowser's recovery more than it does Pit, and Pit can still recover by gliding under the stage. The tilting stage can also interfere with the grab release game.
Bans Known:
-Battlefield: This is Bowser's best neutral stage, and is a small one too, which means there is less room for Pit to run around. Regardless of which u can glide and fly under the stage, Bowser can simply approach you quicker since the stage is small, generally not much room to camp on.
-Norfair: Even though Norfair may not be even available from the start, but if you are ever taken here, know that Bowser simply can live much longer here with the supporting platforms, and lava can help him live even further. Our chaingrab against him is limited with the small platforms. Not much more is known.
-Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
As you know, Pit is bad on this place and is his worse neutral. He can't glide under the stage, and Shy Guys can block arrows.
When playing a Bowser here, like BF, there is not much room for Pit to go around and camping. With the Shy guys around, the camping effectiveness is lowered even more. Also, since Pit can't fly under the stage, if Pit's forced to use Up-B, he really loses the "under the stage" option and has a higher chance of getting gimped by Bowser's fire breath.
More Stage research may be needed.
The matchup ratio has been ranged from 60-40 Pit to 55-45 Pit, mostly leaning towards 55-45 Pit.
Synopsis
60:40 Pit's advantage
The matchup favors Pit, not only because Pit has his projectile against the big, slow target, but him being able to gimp Bowser fairly well and the F-throw CG being really effective against Bowser and other pressuring tactics (camping) make it hard for Bowser to do things.
Now, Bowser does outrange Pit just a bit, and has some good defenses and is really heavy, but Pit can use that weight against him (again, the CG). A skilled defensive Pit will have easy times against Bowser for the most part. Even an offensive Pit that knows about Bowser's defensive capabilities can pressure Bowser, too, but being reckless can be a bad idea.
Again, DON'T expect everything to be completely accurate, as no one's perfect, but be glad that you got something, better than nothing, sigh, but I know I'm goin to be bashed anyways...
pitskeyblade
Smash Lord
Such a negative attitude you have, Admiral. I thought your info on Bowser was extremely helpful. How does the weekly character that we work on get decided?
Damien = God
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2009
- Messages
- 33
Yeah, jeeze, Admiral, it was wonderfully put together. I don't know what you expect us to bash you about. I can agree with everything you said. 60:40 sounds perfect.
Its nice to see Pit boards up and running again in some respect. Looking forward to participating in further discussions.
Might i offer some advice for the overall organization. You could put in collapse threads in the OP. It will make it look much more organized, easier to navigate, and wont take forever to scroll down.
Might i offer some advice for the overall organization. You could put in collapse threads in the OP. It will make it look much more organized, easier to navigate, and wont take forever to scroll down.
Admiral Pit
Smash Hero
It's only a matter of time til someone bashes me and my stuff since I am still restricted to wifi, even though I appreciate you 2 for thinking my stuff is great.
LoliLovesRain
Smash Master
well it was really well put together and while reading it i took into consideration that you get your facts from wifi but i couldnt disagree with it ^_^ so You're all good and no one is going to bash you <3
Damien = God
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2009
- Messages
- 33
Restricted to Wi-Fi? That's awful. I can't stand the lag. I always want to play on there. Need to, actually. I have awful matchups because I'm only used to the same people using the same characters, so I go on there and don't do as well as I could.
pitskeyblade
Smash Lord
Y'know, that's probably the reason the Pit boards aren't being really useful. People may be too afraid to post their thoughts, thinking they're gonna be bashed for them. That's sad. Oh, and no problem, Admiral. ^_^ Sucks that you have to only use Wi-fi. I have little patience for it nowadays.
dualseeker
Smash Ace
I also think that your Post was wonderfully put together Admiral ^__^. I understand what you mean about being bashed. I think that's why the Pit boards haven't been getting a lot of new activity, because people are too afraid to post their findings here. I've been bashed for my SHART guide just because I named it SHART -_-... Also, bashing can be also found on CYVE's Arrow Looping video. I feel that the bashing needs to stop in order to promote growth. We should be encouraging new findings, not bashing them ^__^.
I also think Admirals summary on Bowser needs to be the summary in the MU thread. It's a very well done summary ^__^!
I also think Admirals summary on Bowser needs to be the summary in the MU thread. It's a very well done summary ^__^!
Nitrix
Smash Ace
As a Pit:
What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
Do you feel Pit has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
Do you feel Fox can shut down aspects of Pit's game?
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
discuss, Discuss, DISCUSS!
Hmm fox now huh. Just discussed Fox Vs Link a little while ago.
Tactics to watch out for:
Dair>Anything really. Most commonly Utilt, Usmash, and Dsmash. Though watch out for grabs as well.
Shine Stalling is quite common as well. So try not to throw out attacks too willingly incase he might just stall with shine then follow up with Dair or something.
Foxes usmash is killer, everyone knows it and most fox players will look for a Usmash at about 100%. So whenever you're near or above that %, dont screw around, and go into super defense mode and dont use any laggy attacks unless you KNOW they are going to hit. Eventually he will stop spamming it and go back into normal battle mode, but always be aware that it is going to get you, eventually. That is if you arn't careful. (copied directly from my other post in Link boards)
Recovery wise. I think if you space it properly Nair is the best way to deal with Fox's illusion while airborne. If on the ground predict where hes going to land and get there and smash him in the face. If there's no time to get there probably just shield it. Also can reflect both of his recoveries. Illusion only the end can be reflected, probably better to just hit him. Fox Fire can also be reflected at the charge and launch of his attack, though be aware that if they know your going to reflect during the charge animation he can just attempt to move in the opposite direction to compensate for the reflection.
This is also a technique you may have to look out for. Not many use it but some do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxicKrbeud8&feature=related
Fox has a ton of more options then Falco with his shine stall.
Tactics to watch out for:
Dair>Anything really. Most commonly Utilt, Usmash, and Dsmash. Though watch out for grabs as well.
Shine Stalling is quite common as well. So try not to throw out attacks too willingly incase he might just stall with shine then follow up with Dair or something.
Foxes usmash is killer, everyone knows it and most fox players will look for a Usmash at about 100%. So whenever you're near or above that %, dont screw around, and go into super defense mode and dont use any laggy attacks unless you KNOW they are going to hit. Eventually he will stop spamming it and go back into normal battle mode, but always be aware that it is going to get you, eventually. That is if you arn't careful. (copied directly from my other post in Link boards)
Recovery wise. I think if you space it properly Nair is the best way to deal with Fox's illusion while airborne. If on the ground predict where hes going to land and get there and smash him in the face. If there's no time to get there probably just shield it. Also can reflect both of his recoveries. Illusion only the end can be reflected, probably better to just hit him. Fox Fire can also be reflected at the charge and launch of his attack, though be aware that if they know your going to reflect during the charge animation he can just attempt to move in the opposite direction to compensate for the reflection.
This is also a technique you may have to look out for. Not many use it but some do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxicKrbeud8&feature=related
Fox has a ton of more options then Falco with his shine stall.
KiraFlax
Smash Lord
Fox is acctually one of my worst match ups but i wont let that get in the way of this .
As a Pit:
What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
Do you feel Pit has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
Do you feel Fox can shut down aspects of Pit's game?
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
discuss, Discuss, DISCUSS!
Fox that ***** from space against our pit is a quite interesting match up pair.
first off the basic Fox strategy is Mindgame>Dair>Utilt>Airial ****
This is something that ***** hard and we all need to avoid
Much more to fox is his speed allows him to pull off that strategy and many more ussually racking up hardcore damage, we are talking 20-45+ since pit s light he can tend to get out of fox's combos more efficiently
Most Foxes use these damage racking combos and then save thier up smash til it can kill pit which is around 90 but if you have correct DI it will save you till 100.
Pits range is exceeding due to arrows but on the long run Fox can counter with his shine
vice versa happends with fox's camping game, the lasers easily gets reflected by our mirror shield and angel ring forcing one another to approach. The one that approaches in this match up will be screwed up. So all the aggresive pits includeing myself should change to a defensive style in this match. If pit is approaching, and since a fox player ussually runs on mindgames and speed, he can use his speed to catch u off guard, Its just simply hard to react to fox's fast @$$ moves, and thus making it easier for fox to Dair to Uptilt to ****.
I say a good strategy for pit is to let fox approach you. At this point up close and grounded a tactic which i find very help ful is to use the multi jab. while grounded I see most foxes tend to mindgame to dair most characters by running up to them to shield to short hop Dair to either grab or Utilt. Fox wont be able to leave the ground when fox is doing this tactic.
Another popular strategy for pit against fox is if fox switches it up to full hop, double jump, or just coming staright down on ur @$$ with Dair, Utilt out of shield works perfectly. Dair to anything is one of foxes best strategy so this hurts that A hole a ton in this match up. Also this prevents Dair to Usmash which would be incredibly good for fox.
Alright lets whoop Fox's @$$ again guys.
Offstage we win. Fox's Up B Recovery is horrible against us due to our mirror shield. if fox is coming from directly under we can obviously not mirror shield it since is not coming at an angle Edge hogging becomes the immediate answer. Also if fox is using it and about to get on the stage and pit is no where near to edge hog or mirror shield them in time, pit can guide the arrow to hit fox forceing him to try and recover again which gives u more time and pit can keep repeating that til he gets to seal the deal. Also Fox has his Foward B recovery onto stage or onto legde. On to stage he can be quickly intercepted through the air with a Nair or if spaced correctly there will be time for any smash. It is possible for pit to mirror shield his Foward B but u must be close to him.
Pits may need to watch out a bit when trying to recover to the ledge or the stage with UP B fox can follow off stage at a good distance without worry due to his long recovery.
Most flat stages like Final D i feel give the advantage to fox. much more easier to do his mindgames with a simple flat stage. Flat stages are good for pit in most occassions due to his camping game but since its eliminated by fox we need to change it up a bit
Stage CPs I feel are good for pit vs. fox
Battlefield
Well i feel this stage hurts fox more than it would pit. first off theres no pressure and no worries about fox's Dair from far above due to the platforms. Up air and up tilt work well against fox here.
Figrate Orpheon
No legde on the right for fox to hang on so if fox does make it on due to UP B lag it calls for an easy punish. Second part of stage if pit stays in the middle below the platform it can give the advantages the battle field platforms do. Assumeing pit is on the side and below the platform and fox is in front of pit, pit can just Multi jab and it would eliminate the possibility of a Dair from high above due to the platform being in the way and a short hop down air due to the multi jab.
Delfino plaza
I feel this gives an advantage for pit because a lot of the time its not flat and platforms appear often which throws off fox more than it does pit.
Bans i feel should be banned against fox with pit
Final Destination
Smashvile
Castle siege
(I know theres more stages to be mentioned then the six listed but im lazy)
Final Judgement Intro
Fox does eliminate pits camping arrow game but pit eliminates one of fox's best strategies which in this match up that strategy is more important to fox than the arrows are important to pit. Really depending on who approaches will determine who will have favor. But also take into account that off stage pits wins by a significant amount. Also there are more stages that benifit pit over fox.
Final Jugdment
Adding all of the above info all together I believe the match up comes to a
55-45
Get screwed fox and take that arrow up ur @$$
dualseeker
Smash Ace
I actually do not have that much trouble with the Fox Match Up. In basis, you just need to be wary of what the Vulpine can do, and be prepared to punish it. I agree with a lot of the things you say, Kira. It's a good summary, but I would also like to say some things on this particular MU.
On stage:
One of Fox's main strategies is to start combos with his Dair>Utilt>Aerial combos. The obvious counter against this is ShieldGrab. From there we can proceed to either Chain Grab, or use Dthrow to any Aerial attack (if he is at a low percentage). If he lands behind you, roll away or walk away. Fox is too fast to counter if he lands behind you, and he can punish with his spammable smashes.
Once you are at a percentage that Fox can take you out with a Usmash, I advise staying away from Fox. Since the most favored tactic is to suddenly rush in and use Usmash, you should allow enough distance between yourself and Fox to allow enough time for you to react. Although, beware that they mindgame you into using your shield for too long and they grab you. Fox's grabs can't do much, but they can still cause unneeded damage. If you successfuly shield Fox's Usmash, either counter with a grab, Dsmash, or Dtilt.
I disagree with Kira that Fox's reflector kills our Arrow game, in my opinion, it does not. Unlike Falco's Reflector, Fox's doesn't travel a certain distance forward. This means, that as long as you stay an adequate distance away and angle your Arrow's upwards or downwards, you do not have to fear your own Arrows. I also recommend Arrow Looping (I just know someone is going to bash me for this, but whatever. This strategy is usefull). Make your opponent think that you like to Loop Arrows, or make him think that he needs to pull out his shine each time you take out an Arrow. Then, when you are close enough, pretend to Loop an Arrow. If the enemy pulls out his shine, that is your chance. Use any attack you would like, or grab him, as his shine does cause lag.
It is a good idea to let a Fox approach you, as Kira said. Using Dtilt can ruin their game, since it is a great way to get them when they are dashing towards you.
Also, as Kira said, Fox's speed is a useful tool, and makes the Vulpine much more deadly. Try not to think that you can escape his combos by retaliating, since he can usually execute his next attack before you can attack back. Try to jump away from his combos, since that is the best way to get out of them. Don't try to attack while you are in the combo, it only makes things worse. Also, try not to airdodge or spot dodge too much. This actually helps Fox get more hits on you. And watch out for the Uair, it is surprisingly deadly.
Also, they do have a nice Boxing game. It isn't as good as Falco's, but it can prolong combos. You can punish their infinite with a Dtilt. If you see a Fox using an infinite a lot, try using a Dtilt. It outranges them.
Offstage:
We have the advantage if we are going after him offstage. If he uses his Up B (I'll just call it Fire Fox, don't know the actuall name) and he is in a position to be mirror gimped, go for it. You can also easily gimp him if he is trying to use Fire Fox vertically. Since his Fire Fox has considerable start-up time, if you are near the ledge, try to Fast Fall and hit him with a sweetspot Bair before it takes effect. And, even if it takes effect, you can still sweetspot Bair the Vulpine since he is not invincible while Fire Fox takes effect. Altough, you have to watch out for the hitboxes. If you do not land a sweetspot Bair, jump again and use Bair again. You'll usually sweetspot it; if not, you would have probably knocked him far enough that recovery should be impossible for him. Also, I would advise you use Kira's options against his Side B recovery. That works wonders also.
If he is chasing after you, be VERY CAREFULL OF HIS SHINE!!!! I can't stress this enough. Fox can still go far away from the stage and still recover safely, so he does have the option of chasing you. Be wary not to use your WoI, since his Shine can gimp you easily. If you have the option, glide or WoI under the stage. Since Fox is fast, you might have to mindgame him into going to the other side, then returning to the other edge instead. It is actually better to recover high, but you still have to be wary of Uair, since it can kill and combo into other moves. Plus, Fox jumps pretty high very quickly, so you have to be prepared for his quickness.
In my opinion, this Match Up is either 50:50 or 55:45 in Pit's favor. I do not consider the Vulpine to be a threat.
To answer Nitrix's questions:
Here are some combo videos of Fox. Watching them helps: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmDLU3D0EZo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-xTk66kk1k&feature=related
I feel I didn't do a good job with this summary -_-... I might revise it. But basically, just play defensive and be ready for his Dair. I've been studying this for a while, and I don't think we need to be too afraid of the Vulpine. All we need to do is play defensive untill we can find an opening. ShieldGrabs help IMMENSELY for me.
On stage:
One of Fox's main strategies is to start combos with his Dair>Utilt>Aerial combos. The obvious counter against this is ShieldGrab. From there we can proceed to either Chain Grab, or use Dthrow to any Aerial attack (if he is at a low percentage). If he lands behind you, roll away or walk away. Fox is too fast to counter if he lands behind you, and he can punish with his spammable smashes.
Once you are at a percentage that Fox can take you out with a Usmash, I advise staying away from Fox. Since the most favored tactic is to suddenly rush in and use Usmash, you should allow enough distance between yourself and Fox to allow enough time for you to react. Although, beware that they mindgame you into using your shield for too long and they grab you. Fox's grabs can't do much, but they can still cause unneeded damage. If you successfuly shield Fox's Usmash, either counter with a grab, Dsmash, or Dtilt.
I disagree with Kira that Fox's reflector kills our Arrow game, in my opinion, it does not. Unlike Falco's Reflector, Fox's doesn't travel a certain distance forward. This means, that as long as you stay an adequate distance away and angle your Arrow's upwards or downwards, you do not have to fear your own Arrows. I also recommend Arrow Looping (I just know someone is going to bash me for this, but whatever. This strategy is usefull). Make your opponent think that you like to Loop Arrows, or make him think that he needs to pull out his shine each time you take out an Arrow. Then, when you are close enough, pretend to Loop an Arrow. If the enemy pulls out his shine, that is your chance. Use any attack you would like, or grab him, as his shine does cause lag.
It is a good idea to let a Fox approach you, as Kira said. Using Dtilt can ruin their game, since it is a great way to get them when they are dashing towards you.
Also, as Kira said, Fox's speed is a useful tool, and makes the Vulpine much more deadly. Try not to think that you can escape his combos by retaliating, since he can usually execute his next attack before you can attack back. Try to jump away from his combos, since that is the best way to get out of them. Don't try to attack while you are in the combo, it only makes things worse. Also, try not to airdodge or spot dodge too much. This actually helps Fox get more hits on you. And watch out for the Uair, it is surprisingly deadly.
Also, they do have a nice Boxing game. It isn't as good as Falco's, but it can prolong combos. You can punish their infinite with a Dtilt. If you see a Fox using an infinite a lot, try using a Dtilt. It outranges them.
Offstage:
We have the advantage if we are going after him offstage. If he uses his Up B (I'll just call it Fire Fox, don't know the actuall name) and he is in a position to be mirror gimped, go for it. You can also easily gimp him if he is trying to use Fire Fox vertically. Since his Fire Fox has considerable start-up time, if you are near the ledge, try to Fast Fall and hit him with a sweetspot Bair before it takes effect. And, even if it takes effect, you can still sweetspot Bair the Vulpine since he is not invincible while Fire Fox takes effect. Altough, you have to watch out for the hitboxes. If you do not land a sweetspot Bair, jump again and use Bair again. You'll usually sweetspot it; if not, you would have probably knocked him far enough that recovery should be impossible for him. Also, I would advise you use Kira's options against his Side B recovery. That works wonders also.
If he is chasing after you, be VERY CAREFULL OF HIS SHINE!!!! I can't stress this enough. Fox can still go far away from the stage and still recover safely, so he does have the option of chasing you. Be wary not to use your WoI, since his Shine can gimp you easily. If you have the option, glide or WoI under the stage. Since Fox is fast, you might have to mindgame him into going to the other side, then returning to the other edge instead. It is actually better to recover high, but you still have to be wary of Uair, since it can kill and combo into other moves. Plus, Fox jumps pretty high very quickly, so you have to be prepared for his quickness.
In my opinion, this Match Up is either 50:50 or 55:45 in Pit's favor. I do not consider the Vulpine to be a threat.
To answer Nitrix's questions:
His Dash>Usmash, and Dair>Utilt>any Aerial.
Shield Grabbing, OOS options, playing defensively, and gimping his Fire Fox offstage.
We do not have to shut down our Projectile game just because he has a reflector. And we can gimp his Fire Fox easily. And we shut down his Projectile game.
Not really, other than the fact that we have to be careful on when we go on the offensive.
I pretty much agree with what's already on the Match Up thread.
Here are some combo videos of Fox. Watching them helps: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmDLU3D0EZo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-xTk66kk1k&feature=related
I feel I didn't do a good job with this summary -_-... I might revise it. But basically, just play defensive and be ready for his Dair. I've been studying this for a while, and I don't think we need to be too afraid of the Vulpine. All we need to do is play defensive untill we can find an opening. ShieldGrabs help IMMENSELY for me.
KiraFlax
Smash Lord
I think your summary was great, everything i agree with, except with the think about fox not killing our arrow camping game. Your reasoning was that because if shot at an angle we dont have to worry about getting hit by the reflected arrow as well as the arrow loop strategy and i feel that this reason isnt sufficient enough to say that it doesnt kill our arrow game. Because first off the problem isnt getting hit by the reflected arrow thats just an add on to the real problem. The real problem is that your not hitting fox during that time which makes the arrow useless, Im not sure about this one but i think it also refreshes his stale moves. I feel that the arrow looping strategy inst too great because that option is extreamly hard to pull off on a moving fox. A tactic that i can see coming from an arrow would be to shoot one above thier head and assumeing the fox reacts to it by trying to punish you by approaching which is good we want fox to approach. But then again, assumeing that the fox knows what hes doing in the match wont approach. So pretty much all options from the arrow are pretty much killed, unless your jesus christ and accuratly arrow loop mind game the crap out of someone but then you have to think about adaption. He will most likely adapt to it pretty fast and then finally your left with nothing the arrow can do so fox pretty much does kill pits arrow game.
dualseeker
Smash Ace
Thanks for the compliment ^__^.
And for the Arrows, I don't think it kills our game, because even though it isn't hitting him if he reflects it, it does slow him down a bit. Also, as I said leads to mindgames, but I heard that it's not good to talk about MindGames, since you are bringing up the players in that conversation. So I'll stop on that. If him reflecting Arrows refreshes his moves, then yes, I don't think you should try to hit Fox with Arrows. I did not know that before. I will look into it.
And, that's why I said PRETEND to Loop an Arrow. You can just give up control of the Arrow and just go straight for Fox. You don't need to actually Loop the Arrow. Plus, if he does approach, you're not concentrating on the Arrow, since you let it go and allows you to react. But, what you say about adaption is right. But, that's why you shouldn't Arrow Loop much, since adaption does occur from time to time.
But, I also think that we shut down his projectile game. If he goes into a Blaster rage, it opens him up to Arrows. So, in my opinion, we beat his Blaster due to the fact it cannot make us Flinch. So, a good Fox player will probably not resort to using his Blaster too much. Most likely he'll SH and use the Blaster, eliminating any lag. But I'm pretty sure we can counter that with a Mirror Shield. I advise against using Angel Ring if the Fox does SH Neutral B, since the Angel Ring has more cool down lag than the Mirror Shield.
You say the Fox won't approach if he knows what he's doing, but why? We beat his projectile game, and he needs to be close to punish any reflector move we make. Plus, we beat his Blaster. So, wouldn't the only option for Fox is to approach?
I'm proposing, that if Fox and Pit cancel each others projectile game, we should focus on close range combat.
Conviction
Human Nature
I liked most of your summary. (sorry I feel kind of tired and I probably won't write much atm)
Foxes that approach with Dair *constantly* need to stop playing him. Foxes should be approaching with AC Fairs, AC Bairs, and Nairs from a SH. Full jump approaches should consist of mostly dropping down and bairing since you are not a small character, Nair and Dair cross-up.
Can some one link me Pit's grab range if you have that please?
I agree the camping thing for the most part, Foxes if you want to get lasers in you will have to sneak them in as in you will to laser as you land if the Pit tries to create distance. Probably the same goes for Pit. Pit's mutli-jumps are hard to deal with if you want to gimp him *it shouldn't be happening* instead to gimp him try and tack on some precent by IA Nair'ing him when he is offstage when gets close and if he is far laser him. Bair or Fair his Nair it's annoying as hell. If you are caught in a bad position in the air and the Pit is above you shinestall and FF AD, we have 2nd fastest falling speed so you will reach the ground before Pit if he tries to come in the air after you. You kill him a little bit earlier than he kills you.
Eh this MU is even. I see nothing glaringly obvious the Fox owns Pit or Pit owns Fox.
Foxes that approach with Dair *constantly* need to stop playing him. Foxes should be approaching with AC Fairs, AC Bairs, and Nairs from a SH. Full jump approaches should consist of mostly dropping down and bairing since you are not a small character, Nair and Dair cross-up.
Can some one link me Pit's grab range if you have that please?
I agree the camping thing for the most part, Foxes if you want to get lasers in you will have to sneak them in as in you will to laser as you land if the Pit tries to create distance. Probably the same goes for Pit. Pit's mutli-jumps are hard to deal with if you want to gimp him *it shouldn't be happening* instead to gimp him try and tack on some precent by IA Nair'ing him when he is offstage when gets close and if he is far laser him. Bair or Fair his Nair it's annoying as hell. If you are caught in a bad position in the air and the Pit is above you shinestall and FF AD, we have 2nd fastest falling speed so you will reach the ground before Pit if he tries to come in the air after you. You kill him a little bit earlier than he kills you.
Eh this MU is even. I see nothing glaringly obvious the Fox owns Pit or Pit owns Fox.
dualseeker
Smash Ace
Thanks for the compliment ^__^.
Thank you so much for providing insight on how a Fox player should look at this MU. But I do not understand your terms. What does AC mean? And, what does AD and IA mean? Also, from what you said, Fox can punish our Nair.
Here is the link to the page to where Pit's Grab Range can be found: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=268872
Click on attacks and scroll down till you see grabs.
Can you also say how you deal with the threat of being Mirror Gimped?
Conviction
Human Nature
I looked at the hitbubbles and it looks like the final hit of Nair can't be punished but before then yea he can.
AC= Auto Cancel
AD= Air Dodge
IA= Instant Aerial
Hold on im not the mood to speak anymore KOMANO JUST LOST THE GAME FOR JAPAN FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF WE WERE SO CLOSE TO ADVANCING TOOO WHY KOMANO THIS WHY DEFENDERS DONT STRIKE
dualseeker
Smash Ace
I see, thanks for the info on that.
And thank you for the info on the abreviations. I don't visit any other boards other than Pit, so I don't know some of the terms used by other boards.
Umm..... Okay..... I would still like to know how Fox players deal with the threat of being Mirror Gimped. But for now I'll just assume that they will mostly try to either Side B on stage, or recover Vertically with Fire Fox.
Conviction
Human Nature
Augh I'm sorry about (**** KOMANO) Err for the Mirror thingy Rising Fair and probably recover high. Might not even need to Illision or FireFox.
dualseeker
Smash Ace
I see. Thank you very much. This helps very much.
Well, best of luck to Fox next time, in whatever he lost ^__^.
Well, best of luck to Fox next time, in whatever he lost ^__^.
KiraFlax
Smash Lord
ok im back after sleeping for awhile, ok dual seeker maybe it doesnt completely kill our arrow game but i think our arrows would become a bad option. Instead of focusing on shooting the arrow and pretend loop, loop, or what ever type of mindgame i think pits should be spending that time completely reading him and waiting for the approach instead of a 4% hit with an arrow. Im mostly just saying fox makes the arrow game so useless that the other options pit has at the time are far superior
Conviction
Human Nature
What stages are Pit good on cause I don't see how Pit has the stage adv.
Katana_koden
Smash Ace
Stage like battle field sort of limit your dair game I think because of the platforms. Not sure about smashvile.
Not sure if fox like clear open stages like FD because pits like the free room.
CP stage like brinstar and RC are still good for pit.
Not sure if fox like clear open stages like FD because pits like the free room.
CP stage like brinstar and RC are still good for pit.
dualseeker
Smash Ace
Yes, Fox's shine does make our Arrow game less effective. But the Fox boards encourage that Fox's make the opponent approach them. With Arrows, we can mostly make them approach US instead of us approaching THEM. They don't really have many things that they can force us to approach them first, and as I said, we beat their blasters. So, the Arrows could work as a tool to force an approach or a response.
@Ibris: I don't really know too much about how stages affect Pit being better. But what would probably help is if the stage had a lot of platforms Pit could hide under, like Battle Field. That would mostly hinder Fox's Dair option.
KiraFlax
Smash Lord
yeah i said before that it can be used for fox to make an approach, now that i think about it more it could be more useful but if a fox catches on to what we are doing then he may stop approaching in general. I think your right though it can be very useful, i just guess it depends on the fox player is all. So Yes, I agree with you.
Conviction
Human Nature
Battlefield is arguably Fox's best stage with Halberd.
dualseeker
Smash Ace
If a Fox stops approaching in general, he doesn't have a lot of options to make us approach him. What we can do at this point, is either fake out approaching him; actually approach him and attack; or, stay put and keep trying to force a response. I don't see how a Fox not approaching us will benefit the opponent, since we can keep pelting him with Arrows and all he might be able to do in return is reflect them or fire lazers at us.
@Iblis: The Match Up thread suggests that we pick Lylat Cruise and Frigate Orpheon as counterpicks, but I can't really say much. I'm not that knowledgable when it comes to stages.
Conviction
Human Nature
I'm not really seeing how you guys are landing arrows on us unless we are offstage really.
dualseeker
Smash Ace
We can land an Arrow on you on a number of occasions. We can land an Arrow on you if you are Firing your Blaster on the ground (Which I don't think will ever happen, since I'm sure Fox's are careful not to use their Blaster on the ground). After we hit you with an attack is another time we can hit you with an Arrow. Or, we can hit you with an Arrow after we throw you. The most likely follow up for a throw would be either Fthrow>Arrow or Bthrow>Arrow. These attacks work well when they launch a Fox offstage.
Conviction
Human Nature
I guess I wasn't specific enough I meant from the neutral position as if you were spaced to camp. Plus you agree about the offstage part.
dualseeker
Smash Ace
If we were spaced to camp, then the only ways we could land Arrows easily is if you are using your reflector on the ground. Or using your blaster on the ground. If you are moving around we might be able to hit you if the Pit has good aim and can predict where you're going. But, I would think that someone would position themselves FAR away from you to camp, since you do have speed on their side. So, if you're wondering if we can hit you from camping range, it varies depending on how you act.
And the throws also work onstage as well. But they are most detrimental to you if they launch you offstage. They would most likely force you to use your Illusion; if we predict that we can punish you.