Offical Pit Match Up Thread: Looking for Assistance!

[Conviction]

So if I'm SHL'ing (Fox's most mobile form of laser camping and least committing) it doesn't sound like an arrow is gonna hit me from camping range. I don't have to laser until right before I hit the ground so if I see you pulling an arrow from a good distance away I can jump and reflect or just reflector.

Now, I'm trying to see how bad the arrows are to us offstage. You can loop them back at us but that does take time, best bet of hitting us with an arrow offstage is when we try to rising Fair, also if I was any character I would rather force Fox to FireFox instead of illision it's easier to punish. Also I recommend Foxes if Pit does use a throw to get us offstage use Shine to break the hitstun, remember shine will make you have slight vertical rise and can also reflect back an arrow.

Hey is Kola's Pit still solid? I can get a vid of me and him at the next tourney we both attend to (even though his Marth is probably bettter than his Pit)

I'm just trying to hit all the key areas in this MU before you guys move on plus I'll and get some other Foxes in here. (I hope I'm not the only one with Pit exp. >.>")

 

[crifer]

I just wanted to mention that Fox can outcamp nearly every character in the game, except olimar, imo.

We can sh single laser you in a safe but close distance, in order to force you to reflect or take it.
If you reflect it Fox is fast enough to punish the ending lag of your reflector (to be honest, I don´t know exactly how we should punish that, but I can not imagine that fox can not punish it :D)

 

[dualseeker]

So if I'm SHL'ing (Fox's most mobile form of laser camping and least committing) it doesn't sound like an arrow is gonna hit me from camping range. I don't have to laser until right before I hit the ground so if I see you pulling an arrow from a good distance away I can jump and reflect or just reflector.

Now, I'm trying to see how bad the arrows are to us offstage. You can loop them back at us but that does take time, best bet of hitting us with an arrow offstage is when we try to rising Fair, also if I was any character I would rather force Fox to FireFox instead of illision it's easier to punish. Also I recommend Foxes if Pit does use a throw to get us offstage use Shine to break the hitstun, remember shine will make you have slight vertical rise and can also reflect back an arrow.

If you do a SHL, then either we can try to dodge it, reflect it, or fire back an Arrow and see what happens. We can also SH and use an Arrow, that sometimes works against characters who are also SH'ing. Also, your laser has limited range, but even so, I think it can go across all of FD can't it?

If you try to use Illusion after we throw you, we can also fire another Arrow, forcing you to use Fire Fox. Judgeing by the angle, we could also Mirror Gimp you. Also, if you use Shine, doesn't that force you to use Illusion or Fire Fox? If so, we could probably punish.

Also, I would like to see the vids you have. That can also be helpful.

@Crifer: I can't see how Fox outcamps us. Even though you can use SHL, we can also use SH Arrow, and ours can be controlled. Could you please explain why Fox can outcamp us? I can't see why he can.

 

[Conviction]

SHL is our best camping option because we are not commited to the laser until the last second. So basically its beyond human reaction for you to have perfectly seen the SHL coming because before then if you tried to arrow we could jump over it or just reflect it before even hitting the ground. No offense but I don't think you understand what SHLing looks from the way you are trying to refute it.

You throw us we still have our double jump so there is nothing wrong with Shinestalling.

I think I see where Crifer is trying to get at. Your Mirror does take time to put back away. How well does pit control a mid-range zone? Because you decide to reflect a laser from mid-range idc about it hitting me I can run up and punish you before you can put your mirror away. Pit isn't exactly nimble as Fox so I think camping from mid-range is what we want to do. Plus mid-range negates your arrows because if I reflect them that close it will hit you.

Like I said before it takes time arrow loop and Fox isn't slow are you sure it's worth trying to chase the 3rd fastest dashing character in the game with your arrow if it happens to miss us?

Crifer may have point.

 

[crifer]

SHL is our best camping option because we are not commited to the laser until the last second. So basically its beyond human reaction for you to have perfectly seen the SHL coming because before then if you tried to arrow we could jump over it or just reflect it before even hitting the ground. No offense but I don't think you understand what SHLing looks from the way you are trying to refute it.

You throw us we still have our double jump so there is nothing wrong with Shinestalling.

I think I see where Crifer is trying to get at. Your Mirror does take time to put back away. How well does pit control a mid-range zone? Because you decide to reflect a laser from mid-range idc about it hitting me I can run up and punish you before you can put your mirror away. Pit isn't exactly nimble as Fox so I think camping from mid-range is what we want to do. Plus mid-range negates your arrows because if I reflect them that close it will hit you.

Like I said before it takes time arrow loop and Fox isn't slow are you sure it's worth trying to chase the 3rd fastest dashing character in the game with your arrow if it happens to miss us?

Crifer may have point.

what Iblis said.
Fox is one of the most mobile characters in the game, which makes him one of the best punishers in the game (and actually Fox is all about baiting and punishing).
I´m honest: I don´t have THAT much experience against Pit with Fox, but it just sounds weird that we should approach.

 

[Conviction]

>.> I thought there was another page the MU thread just mindgamed me.

 

[C.R.Z]

arrows are a nusence and that is all.

if we are lazer camping, there is not much pit can do. he can either shoot arrows or approach. shooting arrows should allways be SH shot and bent into fox. this means that if the arrows are reflected they wont hit pit. the reason why fox wins the camping game is because arrows have to much start up to hit fox while hes SHL or even SHTL.

off stage it would be better to edge guard than waste your time shooting arrows since reflector works in the air, although approaching while jumping and shooting arrows will give you more of an oppertunity to edge guard.

pit should use his multiple jumps and multi hits to his advantage during this match up.fox uses shield alot so use side B and Netrual A to shield poke.use jumps to keep pressure on fox an escape strings.

cba to say anymore atm

 

[Saki-]

Hey is Kola's Pit still solid? I can get a vid of me and him at the next tourney we both attend to (even though his Marth is probably bettter than his Pit)

I haven't used Pit competitively since early June of last year. Occasionally when I bring him out for friendlies I do well.
I can play you at the next Monthly if it will help any to this discussion.
xD And yea my Marth is tons better.

 

[deathbygoten]

fox is easy to edgegaurd
i reflect him with my mirror

 

[Conviction]

fox is easy to edgegaurd
i reflect him with my mirror

Play better Foxes please before you say untrue things.

 

[Tetsion]

Play better Foxes please before you say untrue things.

agreed. I have fought good fox users online even, they aren't easily gimped. Side B prevents Pit from mirror shielding it. The only time you will shield a fox is probably in the lower/higher corner of stages not directly below or above you. (I dont know why a fox would be up Bing down towards a stage.)

My go on this is for potential.. 50-50 or 5 in each others favors. I say this because, they both do have reflectors.. but I feel fox's is better in this situation because our 2 reflectors have more lag I think. Fox is quite quick so overall camping each other is pretty pointless, but I know fox has a pressure game more than pit does.

I have played fox as well, and doing SH laser waiting for ur opponent to make a mistake can be quite aggravating to the opponent. Those little %'s rack up.. but don't let it make Pit take the super offensive.. and as weird as this sounds I think Pit should approach fox if he chooses to by walking/running. Doing SH's I feel is honestly pointless (from my experience) none of pit's moves are quick like MetaKnights. Fox's moves from SH laser are Dash attack or sliding with up Smash. Pit doesn't have those options, and can't react as fast to them either.. so staying grounded is more ideal than SH arrow.. or any aerial. Not to say don't use them but keep it scarce..

avoid low ceiling stages with fox, he can kill you a lot faster with up Smash than his other moves, and pit can recover from any distance he isnt killed at, Up Smash will kill us though.

Best "starter" stage against fox if Lylat, the tilts in the stage mess up Fox's timing more than it messes ours up. Another is possibly.. Battle field. I say this because larger stages like FD and SV althogh usually ideal for Pit users.. are not useful when fighting fox as he is faster as well as his lasers. He can in all honesty out camp us better and react to our arrows better than we can to his lasers, even if they dont knock us. Don't give him the distance to do so, battle field leaves less distance between you, arrows have less distance to go to hit fox, and it's harder for him to stay distant from you.

Pit has slightly better up-close fighting range though, I don't know for sure faster but he has more range than fox I believe (going from observation, most of what I typed is from observation and experience, sorry if it's inaccurate if someone knows it is) and that is quite crucial and part of the reason I feel this match-up is pretty even.
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Summery?

Fox is faster has a better reflector compared to ours, and can camp/bait us better than we can him.

Pit can gimp Fox's recovery and overall has more range than Fox does. We also have less stage dis-advantages compared to fox (even though I only discussed starters)

so my..opinion is leaning towards 50-50. As I said earlier though it can be 45-55 in either of their favor though.. it's pretty close imo.

PS. Apologies for structure of the write-up, I just sort of "went with it" I didn't plan to make it organized, I just brainstormed and typed.. laziness~ It always gets me.

 

[KiraFlax]

meh, I think its 55-45 still, due to pits advantage in the offstage game and pit having more stages in his favor

 

[Conviction]

You never said how Pit has more stages in his favor. Also no one has said anything against Fox outcampig Pit.

I just wanted to mention that Fox can outcamp nearly every character in the game, except olimar, imo.

We can sh single laser you in a safe but close distance, in order to force you to reflect or take it.
If you reflect it Fox is fast enough to punish the ending lag of your reflector (to be honest, I don´t know exactly how we should punish that, but I can not imagine that fox can not punish it :D)

SHL is our best camping option because we are not commited to the laser until the last second. So basically its beyond human reaction for you to have perfectly seen the SHL coming because before then if you tried to arrow we could jump over it or just reflect it before even hitting the ground. No offense but I don't think you understand what SHLing looks from the way you are trying to refute it.

You throw us we still have our double jump so there is nothing wrong with Shinestalling.

I think I see where Crifer is trying to get at. Your Mirror does take time to put back away. How well does pit control a mid-range zone? Because you decide to reflect a laser from mid-range idc about it hitting me I can run up and punish you before you can put your mirror away. Pit isn't exactly nimble as Fox so I think camping from mid-range is what we want to do. Plus mid-range negates your arrows because if I reflect them that close it will hit you.

Like I said before it takes time arrow loop and Fox isn't slow are you sure it's worth trying to chase the 3rd fastest dashing character in the game with your arrow if it happens to miss us?

Crifer may have point.

arrows are a nusence and that is all.

if we are lazer camping, there is not much pit can do. he can either shoot arrows or approach. shooting arrows should allways be SH shot and bent into fox. this means that if the arrows are reflected they wont hit pit. the reason why fox wins the camping game is because arrows have to much start up to hit fox while hes SHL or even SHTL.

off stage it would be better to edge guard than waste your time shooting arrows since reflector works in the air, although approaching while jumping and shooting arrows will give you more of an oppertunity to edge guard.

pit should use his multiple jumps and multi hits to his advantage during this match up.fox uses shield alot so use side B and Netrual A to shield poke.use jumps to keep pressure on fox an escape strings.

cba to say anymore atm

Any conter-arguements?

 

[dualseeker]

You pose a very strong argument. It's been fun debating this ^__^. Although, I believe Pit still has some options against your SHL.

We have more options than just shooting an Arrow or approaching against your SHL. We can also use our reflectors. After studying a little I have found some interesting facts (you probably already know about them, though).

We can use our AR, which has more Surface Area and has more of a chance to deflect your SHL. It does take more time to put away than Mirror Shield if you press the B button more than once, though. Although, instead of putting it away, we can keep it up to defend against a possible attack from you. Our Angel Ring clanks with your dash attack, which is a good way to even the playing field. Your Dash attack CAN, however, go through our Angel Ring, but only if you use your Dash Attack JUST before getting hit by our Angel Ring. Considering how precisely you must time this attack, it is not likely that someone will go through each time if you do use your Dash Attack. Your Illusion attack also clanks with our Angel Ring, which will in turn even the playing field for both of us. Also, if you do not space correctly and hit our Angel Ring during the ending animations of Illusion attack, your attack will not clank with ours. Instead you will be caught in it and receive damage. The only attack you have that DOES beat our Angel Ring and knocks us out of it is your Usmash. So, this is the only thing that you can use that can guarantee a hit if we use Angel Ring.

Our Mirror Shield has less Surface Area, but in my opinion takes less time to put away. Although, we can keep it out for a longer period of time, just like Angel Ring, and we can angle it. Mirror Shield has less of a chance of deflecting a laser, but if it does, will reflect it at twice the speed and cause twice the amount of damage. If we leave it out to defend against an attack, I believe it will give us a better defense than Angel Ring, even though it cannot damage you in return or clank with your attack. If you try to use a Dash Attack, our Mirror Shield will block it, but not reflect your attack. So, we might have a chance to retaliate after your Dash Attack. Your Illusion will also be blocked by our Mirror Shield at any distance. No matter how close you stand to us, you cannot knock us out of our Mirror Shield. The only way you can knock us out of our Mirror Shield using Illusion is if you hit us from behind. Considering you would have to jump to do this and give us enough time to retaliate, I'm sure that's out of the question. The only thing that would be able to knock us out of Mirror Shield is (again. Gosh you have such a useful move) your Usmash. But, you have to position yourselves RIGHT NEXT TO US for you to knock us out of our Mirror Shield. If you do not, the damaging frames of your Usmash will only hit the Shield, and not Pit himself. Considering that you will also cause Pit to slide back if you hit the Mirror Shield with your Usmash, you will give us an opening. Please note, that your moves will not be reflected with the Mirror Shield unless you hit the Mirror Shield during the first few frames after it comes out. I'm pretty sure you can also grab us out of Mirror Shield

In my opinion, keeping the Mirror Shield out to defend against an attack is better than keeping Angel Ring out. Mostly because we have a chance to defend against a Usmash with the Mirror Shield, and the Angel Ring wouldn't defend us against a Usmash at all.

I think this might be a good retaliation against your suggestion to overpower us since it does take time to put away our Reflectors. If we don't put our Reflectors away at all, we can still defend against most of your attacks. I hope I've provided a detailed enough explanation for this. I'm pretty sure this would also be a good way to bait Fox to approach.

And I'm sorry that I can't answer your question to how Pit has more stages in his favor. I agree with what the MU thread says, though. I'm sorry I can't be of much help there.

Wow, I typed a lot .

 

[Conviction]

Haha you will be a great MU discusser one day.

Only thing is I hate typing one liners but I read your whole thing and we dont we have have to attack to break your reflector.

Dash Shield Grab eliminates any of the problems you listed above.

EDIT: I've had fun debating this too.

 

[dualseeker]

Haha you will be a great MU discusser one day.

Only thing is I hate typing one liners but I read your whole thing and we dont we have have to attack to break your reflector.

Dash Shield Grab eliminates any of the problems you listed above.

EDIT: I've had fun debating this too.

Thanks for the compliment ^__^. I guess I can be a great MU discusser ^__^!

I know you can grab us out of Mirror Shield, but I fail to see how you can grab us out of Angel Ring. If you get in range to grab us, you will also get in the range of Angel Ring.

Also, I do suggest to stand FAR away from Fox and to pick stages that can give you some distance between you and Fox. If we can stand far enough away from Fox, we can still have time to react even if we do pull out a reflector. Also, if I see that a Fox has a habit of using a Dash Attack or Dash > Usmash, I can keep out a Reflector to best handle the situation and also most likely surprise an opponent.

Glad the feelings mutual ^__^.

 

[Conviction]

Thanks for the compliment ^__^. I guess I can be a great MU discusser ^__^!

I know you can grab us out of Mirror Shield, but I fail to see how you can grab us out of Angel Ring. If you get in range to grab us, you will also get in the range of Angel Ring.

Also, I do suggest to stand FAR away from Fox and to pick stages that can give you some distance between you and Fox. If we can stand far enough away from Fox, we can still have time to react even if we do pull out a reflector. Also, if I see that a Fox has a habit of using a Dash Attack or Dash > Usmash, I can keep out a Reflector to best handle the situation and also most likely surprise an opponent.

Glad the feelings mutual ^__^.

Just test it you can grab Pit out of Angel Ring.

So its looks like Fox should be going to Battlefield,Smashville,Green Greens,Halberd,Delfino,Brinstar
Frigate looks about even to me.
Pit should be going to FD,Yoshi's Island,Lylat,Poke 1 and 2

 

[dualseeker]

Just test it you can grab Pit out of Angel Ring.

So its looks like Fox should be going to Battlefield,Smashville,Green Greens,Halberd,Delfino,Brinstar
Frigate looks about even to me.
Pit should be going to FD,Yoshi's Island,Lylat,Poke 1 and 2

How easy is it to grab Pit out of Angel Ring? If it's so easy to do, then why haven't I seen people do it to me? I have played against good players. So, it's either hard to do, or barely anyone knows about it. Also, I tested out trying to grab Pit with Fox while Pit has his Angel Ring up. I could not do it. So, how DO you grab Pit out of Angel Ring? Because I tested it and couldn't do it. Not even Shielding it and trying to grab Pit did the trick. I do not think Angel Ring can be grabbed out of. I would also like to see if anyone else knows about that.

And, I don't think you know how badly Pit is affected by Yoshi's Island. Unless you mean the Melee Yoshi's Island. If you mean the Brawl Yoshi's Island, that is one of Pit's bad stages. He can't fly under the stage, it has uneven terrain, and the Shy Guy's block Pit's Arrows. I think that should be another stage that Fox should go to, since we don't have a lot of room to react to Fox's speed. Or, is there some reason that Fox does poorly on that stage as well?

 

[Conviction]

Eh I don't like Yoshi's that's why I said Pit go there XD

Yea opps I stand corrected you can't grab that(man I could of swore you could). I guess you just have to abuse the ending lag which shouldn't be hard to do.

 

[dualseeker]

Eh I don't like Yoshi's that's why I said Pit go there XD

Yea opps I stand corrected you can't grab that(man I could of swore you could). I guess you just have to abuse the ending lag which shouldn't be hard to do.

Oh, I see. I don't like it either. Except when I play Marth XD.

I knew you couldn't grab it.

Well, when Angel Ring ends, it has a wind push effect. I think that could mess up a Dash Attack and a Dash>Usmash, since both have short range and need to be precise when hitting someone. If we time the moment we end Angel Ring right when you attack, I'm pretty sure the wind push effect could mess up your spacing.

 

[Conviction]

A Full jump fast falled aerial will take of that.

 

[dualseeker]

A Full jump fast falled aerial will take of that.

True, that takes care of most of the reflector defenses. But, if you use it too often, we can change by stop keeping up the reflector, or making sure not to keep it up for too long so we can react to your Full Jump Fast Fall Aerial.

 

[Conviction]

If we cross-up the aerial it won't matter if you keep it up. Letting it go sooner? Idk how that will work because if we are still talking about from mid-range it we will be on you in a flash either way.

 

[dualseeker]

If we cross-up the aerial it won't matter if you keep it up. Letting it go sooner? Idk how that will work because if we are still talking about from mid-range it we will be on you in a flash either way.

Cross-up the aerial? How does that work? And, I don't think I worded my last post well. We can change and not keep the reflector up, and only use it for a second.

And, I was talking as if we were at long-range. If you were at mid-range, you would take advantage of us in a few seconds if we let up our reflectors. And we wouldn't be able to react fast enough to your Fast Fall Aerial.

If we're at mid-range, I would shield instead of trying to use a reflector.

 

[Conviction]

This whole time I thought we were talking about mid-range >.<

 

[dualseeker]

Most of the stuff I've said would have been more likely to be punishable if we were talking about being at mid-range.

 

[Conviction]

So Pit wins the long range war but Fox wins the mid-range war this is what I was trying to say. It just seems we've had a long and somehow still made sense misunderstanding.

 

[dualseeker]

Oh... Wow, what a misunderstanding that was . Well, I agree with you there. Should we move on to the Close-Range discussion?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

On the subject of Angel Ring, if it hits your shield it's piss-easy to shieldSDI behind pit and get a free punish.

 

[dualseeker]

True, but that's if it hits your shield. And, that's if you can predict we'll use it. But, what you say is true. Although, we shouldn't be keeping it up that long if you're that close to us.

 

[Nitrix]

Fox is really weird to me. His speed is a bit crazy at first, but I think Pit has the boxing skills to keep up. Like 50:50?

 

[Apollo$]

I play both characters so It's kinda hard for me to really say much and I suck at contributing........

-Fox can camp better than us but we have a reflector
-Fox can gimp with shine so yeah
-watch out for AC fair because if he spaces it perfectly off our shield he's safe
-dair (nuff said)
-If he's on the ledge watch out for jumping rising fairs
-I'm sure Fox beats us in the air


This MU is pretty even and don't we have a CG on him at low%?

 

[dualseeker]

I play both characters so It's kinda hard for me to really say much and I suck at contributing........

-Fox can camp better than us but we have a reflectorp

We just had a huge argument and we came to the conclusion that Pit wins the long-range war. So, if we're far away, we outcamp Fox.

-Fox can gimp with shine so yeah
-watch out for AC fair because if he spaces it perfectly off our shield he's safe
-dair (nuff said)
-If he's on the ledge watch out for jumping rising fairs

I agree with you there.

-I'm sure Fox beats us in the air

Not really. If we angle our Uair correctly, it'll beat his Dair. And we are a bit more mobile in the air and can stay there a bit longer than Fox can. The only aerial he beats us at is our Nair, since he can hit us out of it with a Fair or Bair.

This MU is pretty even and don't we have a CG on him at low%?

Yeah, we do. It helps that he falls fast.

 

[KiraFlax]

I still think its 55:45 in pits favor do to the offstage game and more counter picks benifit pit.

 

[Conviction]

more counter picks benefit pit.

you keep saying that but you don't ever back it up

 

[dualseeker]

you keep saying that but you don't ever back it up

Well, let's try to figure out what he's trying to say. He says that more CounterPicks benefit Pit. Well, these are the CounterPicks that the Match Up Thread suggests we pick:

Fox:
Counterpicks: Lylat Cruise, Frigate Orpheon

If Fox has less CounterPicks than Pit, then there might be some truth in what Kira says. Although, considering how there are 4 stages that we shouldn't go to, it doesn't sound like Pit has more CounterPicks than Fox.

 

[Katana_koden]

Is dalfino still legal? That's also one. At least far better for pit. Brinstar, Halbard? Rainbow Cruise? Pokemon stadium is considered bad for pit but worse for fox's recovery also considering our MS gimp.

 

[dualseeker]

Is dalfino still legal? That's also one. At least far better for pit. Brinstar, Halbard? Rainbow Cruise? Pokemon stadium is considered bad for pit but worse for fox's recovery also considering our MS gimp.

Yes, I'm pretty sure Delfino is legal. But, we have to be careful of the water there. As we all know, Pit sucks at the water. But, there are more benefits than disadvantages there for us.

Brinstar and Halberd may be a bad choice considering the low ceilings. With Fox's powerful Usmash, he might be able to KO us faster there than on other stages, due to the low ceiling.

Rainbow Cruise is a good pick, since we can outmaneuver Fox here. We just have to becareful not to get too close to the edges and get KO'd by a smash. But I would suggest going here.

I also agree with Pokemon Stadium.

 

[Allbrex]

Fox vs Pit is roughly a 50:50 matchup, staying away from slower startup moves since Fox is lighting fast it's a pretty even match. On a side note, not sure how often this is updated but Pit vs Marth isn't 40:60 in Marth's favor unless you're talking about playing on battlefield. Overall it's a 50:50 matchup depending on which map you're playing on. I also don't believe that Pit vs Snake is 55:45 in Pit's favor, more like the other way around, possibly a little more.

 

[dualseeker]

Fox vs Pit is roughly a 50:50 matchup, staying away from slower startup moves since Fox is lighting fast it's a pretty even match. On a side note, not sure how often this is updated but Pit vs Marth isn't 40:60 in Marth's favor unless you're talking about playing on battlefield. Overall it's a 50:50 matchup depending on which map you're playing on. I also don't believe that Pit vs Snake is 55:45 in Pit's favor, more like the other way around, possibly a little more.

True. But, if you keep an adequate distance between yourself and Fox, you should be able to react in time for his attack, even if you do start with a slow move. Also, I'm pretty sure our boxing game beats Fox's. But he can kill faster than us. Overall, our most useful assets are our long range attacks (mostly Ftilt), and our superior air game. Also, our ability to reflect his recovery is also a useful asset (but it really shouldn't be happening too often against a Fox main).

Also, with Pit Vs. Snake, I think it's more of an even Match Up. Our Arrows can eliminate his grenade game, and can blow up a landmine (his Dsmash). But, his jabs have Chuck Norris type strength, and can KO early in the game. Our most useful asset is our Arrows on that MU.