Nintendo has hit a brick wall.

[finalark]

And here I find the problem. You are looking at Aesthicis. A new franchise is not doing something new. Its just a new name and a new character.
Secondly, No, Nintendo is NOT doing that. Some wonderfully inventive games have come out this gen from Nintendo. I could not play Super Mario Galaxy on the Gamecube with a graphic downgrade. Its drastically different from Sunshine. (and before you bring up Galaxy 2, the changes in Galaxy 2 are far greater than those of God of War 1 to 2 and now it looks like to 3). Nintendo has constantly done something different.

Not all new franchises mean new things, true. However, new franchises often bring new things. Look at Sega's Madworld, or the older Okami. And what inventive games has Nintendo given us? Wii (insert noun/adjective/verb) here? Although I really can't say about Muramasa, that's something I'm going to keep my mouth shut about until I play it. And yes, Galaxy is drastically different from Sunshine, because Galaxy actually felt like a sequel. And Nintendo is not always doing something different, because if they do break away from the formula then the fans will get pissed... anyway, at least we can both agree that God of War sucks.

On IGN when IGN mentioned that there were talks of new consoles starting to pop up from Microsoft and Sony and rumors of Nintendo, the comments complained that it was too soon because the 'next gen consols' had just come out.

That sounds like a really interesting read, would you mind linking that article.

No. All they did was take the elements from Resident Evil 4 and bump them up a ton. This is by no way a game that makes me feel like this is the future of gaming. They took what the critics wanted for resident Evil 4 and put it in the game and added a chain saw so that now the one hit kill gun hit move is now slow and clunky and will get you shot should you try it mid tournament match.

What? The over-the-shoulder style in RE4? If you haven't noticed, the entire gaming industry is more or less based off of stealer ideas and elements from other games and then mixing new things in with it. Banjo-Kazooie? All they did was take the elements from Mario 64 and bump them up a ton. By the way, what does make you feel like the future of gaming anyway?

I don't think you really read anything about Galaxy 2. Its not directed at the casuals. Its directed at the hard core. Its goal is to be a very difficult game. Secondly, this isn't an expansion pack. This is a new game the same as Super Mario Brothers 1 2 3 and World is. There is no difference here.

I never said anything about Mario Galaxy 2 being directed at the casuals! I said that a majority of the games made by Nintendo this gen have been targeted at casual gamers. I mean think about, last gen every year we got a hefty amount of titles targeted at Nintendo's core audience every year, this time around we get a pathetically small amount of title targeted as us every year. And do you think it's odd that Nintendo had a drought of "core" games, then all of the suddenly at E3 '09? Especially after the casual-riffic E3 '08? It's easy, they knew that most of their fans were disappointed in them and were trying to reel them back in.

So because your crowd doesn't like the Wii, no one must like it?

It's not just "my crowd." I've talked with people beyond my circle of friends.

First off, you can't take the internet seriously. Only the most loudest and most advent fans are going to go around espousing their love/hate for a console. You can't take that as a sign of the entire gaming spectrum.

You know, just like this entire thread. Yes, I've chatted with people from not just the internet, but in real life too. During the summer, I often take vacations to other parts of the US, and as such, I get a chance to talk with many different gamers. A majority of the ones I've spoken with (all the way from Arizona to Alabama to Pennsylvania to Alaska and beyond) find that they are satisfied with the 360 and PS3 but even long-time fans are disappointed with Nintendo. In my book, it's only the clingy fans who can't see anything any other way who still hold on to Nintendo.

The true test of a systems success with the fans is sales, and Nintendo clearly has that, even if some amazing games don't sell on Wii, but I could point out just as many that don't on Xbox, such as Blazblue. In fact things like that aren't new at all. Ico sold horribly, as did Katamari Damatichi, Okami on the PS2, Psyconauts, the list goes on. Simply because it happens on occasion on a Nintendo consol people point out that it must be Nintendo's fault. This all dates back to a market smear campaign by Sega that claimed the same thing.

90% of the Wii's sales come from casual gamers. Think really, really hard about that.

And Blazblue, if anything, oversold. It was a pain in the *** to get a hold of that thing, from what I've read from a number of gaming news sources it actually sold way the hell more than originally thought, all the way until the point where it became much like trying to get a Wii back in 2006.

It was once claimed that the Wii was rarely paid, well now Wii chanel lets people submit the hours played and Nintendo releases charts of which games are most played each week and we see the opposite. We see that these games are played an equal amount except there being more Wiis more games are being played. Even more, not all 'casual games' fill the list. Brawl is the top of course, and then there are others like Fire Emblem. I'd have to go look at the article on Kotaku again to see it.

That actually sounds really interesting, I was unaware of this. Would you mind linking the article?

We Wii-ers are just fine. We wove ware wii wand ware wii ware.
World of Goo> Xbox 360's Entire line up.

Wells it's all well and good, you can enjoy the Wii if you'd like. And btw, just about anything > 360 entire line up of about two games (seriously, almost every game on this system either gets a PS3 port or is also on the PC).

...Seriously, Finalark?

Seriously?

I respect you and everything, I think you're a pretty cool guy. You tend to go out of your way to report on trends you pick up on in the video game media.

But then for you to go say something as old as this recycled rant?

Thank God Nintendo don't listen to the gaming community; they'd be bankrupt already if they tried to please the unpleaseable.

Hey, everyone has their lapse of intelligence, right? (Seriously, at this point I'm really smacking myself in the back of the head for this one).

 

[JackieRabbit5]

I think some decreased sales will do Nintendo some good, they'll be forced to consider quality over quantity.
I remember seeing an article about how the average rating for Wii games was so poor...It was mainly just because of these third party developers trying to reach the Wii's younger, casual crowd by making like SpongeBob games or whatever.

Anyways I don't see any reason to be so cynical at this point...I still don't think you've clarified how Wii games like Super Mario Galaxy 2 are any more "rehashes" as you say then what other consoles do, or what has been done in the past. There are still good games on the horizon like Metroid: Other M.

And I agree with Mardyke about some fans being unpleasable...

 

[Mardyke]

Hey, everyone has their lapse of intelligence, right? (Seriously, at this point I'm really smacking myself in the back of the head for this one).

There, there. It's alright, we can't always be right.

 

[Sucumbio]

Sorry I got butt in again...

MP Trilogy has ONE thing that makes it worth it. I can finally play MP 1 and 2 with Wii mote controls. It's as if Nintendo heard my request all those months ago when on this very forum I stated that I'd play the first two if I could use the Wii-mote, because the Wii-mote is what made MP3 even playable, and as it turns out, a legendary FPS IMHO.

and LOL at po pimpus, old man gamers are far and few between here at SWF, but dude, srsly? SNES was so not the best console ever. NES. y? Cause they literally saved the industry. We owe everything we have today to Nintendo's NES. After the video game crash there was a desolate wasteland for gamers. And then NES rode in like the knights of old to save us from our misery. SNES was great, no doubt, but I personally used it for fighting games (MK, SF, KI) and RPGS (FF II, FFIII, SoM) that be it. Playstation actually deserves credit. They mopped up in the CD console generation, destroying 3DO, 3DI, Sega CD, and nintendo couldn't even hang that generation, with their wanna be N64. Not even a disc system, tragic that generation was.

Gamecube wins the next generation for quality, but PS2 again for library.

This generation, Wii sells more cause of the trendy approach, the gimmicky style, but PS3 wins again for library.

XBOX360 has the online play down pat, they win for online gaming this gen.

enough from me, gamer for 29 years. I won't be dusting off my SNES tho, I got a retro duo w/NES and SNES and it's brand spankin' new.

Oh yeah and I want a Melee re-release so I can use wii-mote controls and play it "with anyone" online.

 

[finalark]

Sorry I got butt in again...

MP Trilogy has ONE thing that makes it worth it. I can finally play MP 1 and 2 with Wii mote controls. It's as if Nintendo heard my request all those months ago when on this very forum I stated that I'd play the first two if I could use the Wii-mote, because the Wii-mote is what made MP3 even playable, and as it turns out, a legendary FPS IMHO.

and LOL at po pimpus, old man gamers are far and few between here at SWF, but dude, srsly? SNES was so not the best console ever. NES. y? Cause they literally saved the industry. We owe everything we have today to Nintendo's NES. After the video game crash there was a desolate wasteland for gamers. And then NES rode in like the knights of old to save us from our misery. SNES was great, no doubt, but I personally used it for fighting games (MK, SF, KI) and RPGS (FF II, FFIII, SoM) that be it. Playstation actually deserves credit. They mopped up in the CD console generation, destroying 3DO, 3DI, Sega CD, and nintendo couldn't even hang that generation, with their wanna be N64. Not even a disc system, tragic that generation was.

Gamecube wins the next generation for quality, but PS2 again for library.

This generation, Wii sells more cause of the trendy approach, the gimmicky style, but PS3 wins again for library.

XBOX360 has the online play down pat, they win for online gaming this gen.

enough from me, gamer for 29 years. I won't be dusting off my SNES tho, I got a retro duo w/NES and SNES and it's brand spankin' new.

Oh yeah and I want a Melee re-release so I can use wii-mote controls and play it "with anyone" online.

Holy crap nothing has ever been closer to my thoughts on that subject. Except for the whole "NES is best" thing. If you really think about it, Nintendo really has been behind ever since the Nintendo 64 days. Back when the Sega Saturn and the Sony Playstation were using disks, Nintendo was still using cartridges. Jump forward a generation, while I loved the Game Cube, they were still behind. Sony and Microsoft are using CDs, have good online play and DVD playing function. Nintendo is using mini-disks, doesn't really do anything withe their online attachment, and although the DVD bit really doesn't matter to me, seriously, Nintendo, Mini Disks? Now we jump to this generation. Microsoft is using HDDVDs, Sony, Blu Ray disks, each has solid online play plenty of other useful features. Nintendo? They now use DVDs, have only so-so online play and only moderate extra features.

 

[Sucumbio]

I can't disagree w/you fin on that, nintendo has technically been behind since even before 64, but definitely 64 was the start of their decline in terms of american's fandom. I still heart nintendo tho, and will always stick by them, but the fact they waited so long to come out w/a substandard system the 64, they really shot themselves in the foot there, they basically handed the market over to sony, look at how entrenched they got, microsoft had to bankrupt themselves (not literally, but might as well have been) to get into the console business, and it's been only positive for them this generation.

oh yeah, and sony's PS was actually a nintendo product before nintendo gave up on it preferring to stick to carts. whoops!!!!! could have kept sony in the dust if they'd only realized that CD-ROMs > Carts, not cause they load faster, carts > discs for that, but b/c of the storage space! meh, nintendo's always doing something seemingly good but it ends up being the wrong decision. carts, mini discs, yeah. Maybe Wii2 will be blue-ray or whatever.

but don't get me on a tangent on blue-ray I still haven't replaced all my VHSs w/DVDs yet and now those are going out of style for blue-ray. I refuse to play along. I will not replace my whole **** movie library ever 5 years because of "new innovation." what a scam.

 

[john!]

Am I the only one who preferred the cartridges? I hate loading screens, and the N64 games usually looked as good as PS games, if not better.

Maybe I'm just biased because the N64's actual games were better than those of the PS.

 

[Lord Viper]

Maybe I'm just biased because the N64's actual games were better than those of the PS.

☆ I think I'm biased to because I was thinking the same, I blame Soul Edge for making PS popular though. )= ☆

 

[GreenKirby]

I like how the OP say that because we're getting Mario sequels, it means Nintendo ran out of ideas despite the fact that they're been pulling that stunt sense the Gamecube and even N64.

But I guess since the Wii's popular, it makes Nintendo teh evel now. lol

 

[Firus]

I like how the OP say that because we're getting Mario sequels, it means Nintendo ran out of ideas despite the fact that they're been pulling that stunt sense the Gamecube and even N64.

But I guess since the Wii's popular, it makes Nintendo teh evel now. lol

Everyone is saying this, either because they're ignoring the difference between then and now (not the Wii being popular), or because they just flat-out don't get it.

Mario 64: The original 3D Mario

Sunshine: Mario 64 with slightly improved mechanics, plus the FLUDD which changes the game quite a bit.

Galaxy: Mario 64, but in space; gravity is a factor, Star Bits, power-ups.

Galaxy 2: Galaxy + Yoshi and new power-ups.

Finalark's point is Galaxy vs. Galaxy 2, not "ZOMG NAWT ANUTHA MARYO SEKWAL."

(Plus, wouldn't "The Wii's popular now" fall apart since the Wii was just as, if not more, popular when Galaxy came out?)

 

[CRASHiC]

There still is NO DIFFERENCE

Mario Bro
Mario Bro 2
Mario Bro 3
Mario Bro World

 

[Insetick]

Nintendo didn't hit a brick wall! It just decided to stop running.

Using the Mario franchise is a quick and easy way to plug new ideas into a game b/c Nintendo can skip having to think up new characters and settings. If Mario stops being profitable, they could easily have their "idea people" come up with some new franchise.

 

[Bowser King]

Am I the only one who preferred the cartridges? I hate loading screens, and the N64 games usually looked as good as PS games, if not better.

Maybe I'm just biased because the N64's actual games were better than those of the PS.

Same thing I was thinking.

I completely disagree that NSMBW is a rehash. It has new levels, power-ups, story, multiplayer and it has plenty of changes from NSMBDS. If anything, that's like saying all mario games are a rehash because they usually only add new powerups, a new story and one or two other new things.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that that's been happening for just about every game series out there. They only change once and a while and even then, big series usually go back to there roots (something even SEGA has tried many times).

Galaxy 2 is also far from an expansion pack. Close to 98% new levels? Since when did expansion packs do that? We've only seen a one minute clip so I'm pretty sure there will be more then just yoshi to it. I would actually love to revisit the Delfino Plaza or another one of the surrounding islands on the wii in a new game.

I guess MPT is a rehash but I still think the idea was great. There are plenty of people who haven't gotten into MP and would like too. What better way then by putting them all onto one disk.

 

[Firus]

There still is NO DIFFERENCE

Mario Bro
Mario Bro 2
Mario Bro 3
Mario Bro World

Listing the games off twenty times and not acknowledging anything else, even when someone brings up a good argument against your point, is fun and all, but if you actually played them you would realize the games actually vary a lot.

Also, you really didn't put those titles correctly, considering it's "Bros." for all of them, except for Super Mario World which has no "Bros." in it at all. And Super Mario Bros. is a totally different game from Mario Bros.

Super Mario Bros. Gameplay

Super Mario Bros. 2 Gameplay

Super Mario Bros. 3 Gameplay

Super Mario World Gameplay

If you're too lazy to actually watch those to enough of an extent to understand the gameplay differences, then at least don't reply instead of pretending they're exactly the same yet again.

 

[Sucumbio]

Isn't it possible that Galaxy was so popular that nintendo actually, I dunno, wanted to make a true sequel? Not a new game, but a proper. sequel. yeah?

"LOS ANGELES--Nintendo led off its Electronic Entertainment Expo 2009 press event with New Super Mario Bros. for the Wii, a co-op heavy side-scrolling platformer. As Nintendo's press event wrapped up, the publisher trotted out two arguably even more sought after titles, announcing Super Mario Galaxy 2 and Metroid: Other M for the Wii. " -gamespot.com on nintendo at e3 day 1

MORE SOUGHT AFTER. Yeah? So ... if people want it, and they do it, good for them! Brick wall, not so much apparently, more, nintendo made a follow-up sequel, for the first time ever since lost levels (which america couldn't even play until SNES) and ... apparently we asked them to do it!

 

[Delta-cod]

I've really just been lurking this thread since I enjoy reading debates, but something that's been brought up has been bothering me.

Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. 2

They have the same relationship as SMG and SMG2. The SMB2 you guys keep bringing up is a different game with Mario characters in it. It was originally Doki Doki Panic I believe, and not actually a Mario game. The true SMB2 is what we probably know as the Lost Levels, which is SMB2 in Japan. They weren't released in USA because they were thought of as too hard. So basically, it's the same thing as with the Galaxies.

SMB went to a harder SMB2. SMB2 was the EXACT same as SMB except new levels and the Poison Shroom.

SMG went to a supposedly harder SMG2. Exactly the same except for new levels, Yoshi, and power ups.

They did the same thing with the first Mario game as they are now. I don't see the problem.

 

[Sucumbio]

There still is NO DIFFERENCE

Mario Bro
Mario Bro 2
Mario Bro 3
Mario Bro World

egads...

ok to be fair World and SMB3 are -very- similar.

but lets see

SMB - no overworld map to navigate, only 2 powerups, mushroom and fireflower, only one boss, bowser, only ... 6 map styles I can count. normal, tree, bridge, water, dungeon, castle

SMB2 - not even a mario game originally. it was doki doki panic before they re-named it SMB2. allows you to play as 4 different characters, all with unique move sets... has the "warp" door functionality, and cherry picking, and the kill method is totally different, you pick up stuff out of the ground, and each character does this at different speeds, also each character varies on jump height, run speed and how useful their powerups are used. added slot machine for extra lives. has multiple bosses. has several more styles of gameplay available, as every character faces a stage differently, and therefore requires a different approach. very unpopular to some b/c of its departure from tradtional SMB. tons more map styles, utilizing full vertical in addition to horizontal, which in SMB was reserved simply for climbing vines (an automated process) to get to another horizontal plane.

SMB3- a return back to traditional SMB. introduced the above world map. introduced several new powerups, suits. introduced 2 breakthrough technical items, the angel'd *(sloped) play field and the midi sound file, both of which thought to be impossible on NES but made possible through cart innovation. this one is probably the least obvious advancement for the series until then, but nintendo did have to re-coup their name-in-the-game due to SMB2's failure in some markets here in the US.

This is actually where nintendo would stall on innovation though, as SMBW is very much like SMB3, just had an additional character (yoshi, heh coincidence) and powerup variance.

Mario 64, yeah, they went from 2D to 3D, if nothing else about the game was different, this is enough of a difference to consider it different. Mind you I didn't play it, and I still don't play it, cause I hate 3D mario games, 2D all the way (again, thanks nintendo for reading my mind and giving me NSMBW whoo hoo!).

EDIT:

>< did I just get ninja'd bah!

 

[Firus]

I've really just been lurking this thread since I enjoy reading debates, but something that's been brought up has been bothering me.

Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. 2

They have the same relationship as SMG and SMG2. The SMB2 you guys keep bringing up is a different game with Mario characters in it. It was originally Doki Doki Panic I believe, and not actually a Mario game. The true SMB2 is what we probably know as the Lost Levels, which is SMB2 in Japan. They weren't released in USA because they were thought of as too hard. So basically, it's the same thing as with the Galaxies.

SMB went to a harder SMB2. SMB2 was the EXACT same as SMB except new levels and the Poison Shroom.

SMG went to a supposedly harder SMG2. Exactly the same except for new levels, Yoshi, and power ups.

They did the same thing with the first Mario game as they are now. I don't see the problem.

Don't get all technical on us, that's really quite obnoxious.

SMB2 is the game that was RELEASED as SMB2. Lost Levels didn't get released as a full game anywhere but Japan. Unless we're living in Japan, that doesn't count.

Isn't it possible that Galaxy was so popular that nintendo actually, I dunno, wanted to make a true sequel? Not a new game, but a proper. sequel. yeah?

"LOS ANGELES--Nintendo led off its Electronic Entertainment Expo 2009 press event with New Super Mario Bros. for the Wii, a co-op heavy side-scrolling platformer. As Nintendo's press event wrapped up, the publisher trotted out two arguably even more sought after titles, announcing Super Mario Galaxy 2 and Metroid: Other M for the Wii. " -gamespot.com on nintendo at e3 day 1

MORE SOUGHT AFTER. Yeah? So ... if people want it, and they do it, good for them! Brick wall, not so much apparently, more, nintendo made a follow-up sequel, for the first time ever since lost levels (which america couldn't even play until SNES) and ... apparently we asked them to do it!

...Hey look, Captain Obvious finally got here.

Of COURSE Nintendo made a Galaxy sequel because the fans demanded it. Why the hell else would they do it? This was a given for me, I knew before it was even announced that it made sense considering how many people fapped at the first one.

However, there's a difference between a Galaxy sequel and Galaxy + Yoshi.

 

[SuperBowser]

No one knows anything about SMG2 to say it is just yoshi added in.

But even so, the main reason people buy mario games is for the level design. If you don't, fair enough. But that is what makes a good mario sequel imo.

 

[Bowser King]

However, there's a difference between a Galaxy sequel and Galaxy + Yoshi.

We've only seen a one minute clip a couple months ago. The game isn't releasing until sometime in 2010.

Just because the clip shows Yoshi in it doesn't mean its Galaxy+Yoshi. They should a couple of interesting levels and stage designs that didn't have yoshi along with a new powerup (the drill).

If you go watch the E3 clips for a lot of Nintendo's major games, you'll notice there usually only one minute long and don't show that much beyond a couple levels and a new thing they added.

 

[Sucumbio]

Of COURSE Nintendo made a Galaxy sequel because the fans demanded it. Why the hell else would they do it? This was a given for me, I knew before it was even announced that it made sense considering how many people fapped at the first one.

However, there's a difference between a Galaxy sequel and Galaxy + Yoshi.

I think that Nintendo has just hit a wall and is pretty **** close to being out of ideas. Think about it, Mario Galaxy 2, New Super Mario Bros Wii, The Metroid Prime Trilogy, what do these all have in common? The billion-dollar answer is that they're all rehashes of some sort.

Check and mate.

You can't say nintendo's out of ideas, if nintendo's idea was to do what fans asked them to do. It's just ... well you CAN but it's not very intelligent.

Had galaxy 2 not had a fan-based attraction, had nintendo just, decided to do it for the F of it, ok... maybe. But as you just pointed out so eloquently, -obviously- the fans wanted it, and they followed suit. This is not equal to a lack of ideas, this is running with... the best idea, giving the fans what they want, something nintendo apparently doesn't even do that often.

-signed, Captain Obvious

srsly tho all poniards aside my point ties in with the OP, this assertion that nintendo is lame in the creative sector because they made galaxy 2. instead, I counter that nintendo is in fact not lame for doing this, they are in fact, awesome, and may have even earned the respect of the gaming community by doing this.

 

[Firus]

Check and mate.

You can't say nintendo's out of ideas, if nintendo's idea was to do what fans asked them to do. It's just ... well you CAN but it's not very intelligent.

Had galaxy 2 not had a fan-based attraction, had nintendo just, decided to do it for the F of it, ok... maybe. But as you just pointed out so eloquently, -obviously- the fans wanted it, and they followed suit. This is not equal to a lack of ideas, this is running with... the best idea, giving the fans what they want, something nintendo apparently doesn't even do that often.

-signed, Captain Obvious

srsly tho all poniards aside my point ties in with the OP, this assertion that nintendo is lame in the creative sector because they made galaxy 2. instead, I counter that nintendo is in fact not lame for doing this, they are in fact, awesome, and may have even earned the respect of the gaming community by doing this.

...

...

...

So did you stop reading after the part where I agreed with you?

Because you must have missed the most important part of my post.

Yes, we (and by "we" I mean everyone else since I think Galaxy is mediocre) asked for a Galaxy sequel.

Why is it that you think sequel = rehash? And if it is, then EVERYTHING in EVERY sort of media rehashes EVERYTHING.

There is such a thing as putting new ideas into a game. Metroid 2 was a sequel to Metroid, but it brought a ton of innovations and differences. Super Metroid was a sequel to Metroid 2, but it revolutionized Metroid to the point that it's debatable whether any Metroid game since has been as good. Metroid Fusion was a sequel to Super Metroid and it made plot play a huge role and was much more linear, while still keeping the Metroid idea.

(And before you say that these games aren't direct sequels, check again -- Super Metroid is subtitled Metroid 3 just as Metroid Fusion is subtitled Metroid 4.)

If you can honestly tell me that you think Super Metroid is a rehash of Metroid 2, I probably won't take anything you say seriously again.

 

[john!]

They show a minute long clip of the first Mario sequel for the same system in ages, which retains the core elements of arguably the greatest game this generation and adds new twists (along with 95% new content), and you are disappointed. Sorry, but that is pathetic. I don't care whether you call it a sequel, rehash, clone, or whatever, it is almost definitely going to be amazing. Don't blame Nintendo for responding to the extremely positive reception of Galaxy 1. They are trying to make money and go the extra mile for their fans.

 

[Sucumbio]

heh serves me right for not putting in who posted the second quote, my bad. those were actually fin's words from his OP, I was using your words vs his to show the juxtaposition in argument, because you and I both agree galaxy 2 was a fan-based decision, and yet he claims that this decision is evidence of nintendo being out of ideas, and I cannot resolve that, it's just not logically sound. I would buy it if nintendo was releasing this game for lack of something better to do, but the fact they answered a calling means it's not a lack of ideas. that's really it, i'm just making a very simple observation on the logic of his statement, I find it faulty is all. and he further backs up his point by citing other game releases like MP Trilogy. There's actually more evidence that THAT release = lack of innovation than galaxy 2. porting gamecube games to the wii and adding wii controls... yeah ok, not very original. for instance I did not purchase RE4 wii because eh, the gamecube game is fine for me. I own a ps2 but didn't get RE 4 for that either -despite- the extra content, because the gc version does it for me. that's all neither here nor there tho. the point is fin's argument has a fundamental flaw that I just can't ignore, which is that galaxy 2 is not evidence to support their lack of ideas, it's just them answering a calling, and they're going to do more than just add new levels, there's now a new character in yoshi. what ever else is in store for us in this game I do not know, but that's already enough to make those fans happy, and enough for me to not harsh on them for being stagnant.

 

[finalark]

They show a minute long clip of the first Mario sequel for the same system in ages, which retains the core elements of arguably the greatest game this generation and adds new twists (along with 95% new content), and you are disappointed. Sorry, but that is pathetic. I don't care whether you call it a sequel, rehash, clone, or whatever, it is almost definitely going to be amazing. Don't blame Nintendo for responding to the extremely positive reception of Galaxy 1. They are trying to make money and go the extra mile for their fans.

If it was 95% new content, then it would be Mario Galaxy. Anyway, we really don't have that much information on the game to go off of, but from what little I see, it seriously looks like an expansion pack. But hey, if I'm wrong then we have a great new Mario game (depending on if you liked Galaxy or not). If I'm right, then I get to say "told you so."

But seriously, if the game's even shorter than the first one then I'm going to start cracking up.

heh serves me right for not putting in who posted the second quote, my bad. those were actually fin's words from his OP, I was using your words vs his to show the juxtaposition in argument, because you and I both agree galaxy 2 was a fan-based decision, and yet he claims that this decision is evidence of nintendo being out of ideas, and I cannot resolve that, it's just not logically sound. I would buy it if nintendo was releasing this game for lack of something better to do, but the fact they answered a calling means it's not a lack of ideas. that's really it, i'm just making a very simple observation on the logic of his statement, I find it faulty is all. and he further backs up his point by citing other game releases like MP Trilogy. There's actually more evidence that THAT release = lack of innovation than galaxy 2. porting gamecube games to the wii and adding wii controls... yeah ok, not very original. for instance I did not purchase RE4 wii because eh, the gamecube game is fine for me. I own a ps2 but didn't get RE 4 for that either -despite- the extra content, because the gc version does it for me. that's all neither here nor there tho. the point is fin's argument has a fundamental flaw that I just can't ignore, which is that galaxy 2 is not evidence to support their lack of ideas, it's just them answering a calling, and they're going to do more than just add new levels, there's now a new character in yoshi. what ever else is in store for us in this game I do not know, but that's already enough to make those fans happy, and enough for me to not harsh on them for being stagnant.

I'll get you next time, Gadget. So okay, my Mario Galaxy 2 agrement doesn't hold water anymore I guess. Although I do find it odd that for the first time in ages Nintendo is actually listening to their fans and giving them what they want.

That is, as long as it's Metroid, Zelda or Mario. You know, a series that's garenteed to sell.

 

[Firus]

They show a minute long clip of the first Mario sequel for the same system in ages, which retains the core elements of arguably the greatest game this generation and adds new twists (along with 95% new content), and you are disappointed. Sorry, but that is pathetic. I don't care whether you call it a sequel, rehash, clone, or whatever, it is almost definitely going to be amazing. Don't blame Nintendo for responding to the extremely positive reception of Galaxy 1. They are trying to make money and go the extra mile for their fans.

The only thing that's pathetic here is that you think it's pathetic that someone else might disagree with you.

I played Galaxy. I thought it was mediocre.

If you think that's pathetic, then I suggest you do...something to cure yourself of such obnoxious elitism.

Nintendo hasn't gone the extra mile for their fans since the Wii came out, so don't act like they're perfect angels. I wouldn't EXPECT them to go the extra mile for such a minority in the population that now plays video games, but let's not lie here.

Not to mention that you basically said, "Galaxy was so great, it doesn't matter if it's just the same game without even Yoshi added on, it's awesome and you're pathetic for not appreciating that."

heh serves me right for not putting in who posted the second quote, my bad. those were actually fin's words from his OP, I was using your words vs his to show the juxtaposition in argument, because you and I both agree galaxy 2 was a fan-based decision, and yet he claims that this decision is evidence of nintendo being out of ideas, and I cannot resolve that, it's just not logically sound. I would buy it if nintendo was releasing this game for lack of something better to do, but the fact they answered a calling means it's not a lack of ideas. that's really it, i'm just making a very simple observation on the logic of his statement, I find it faulty is all. and he further backs up his point by citing other game releases like MP Trilogy. There's actually more evidence that THAT release = lack of innovation than galaxy 2. porting gamecube games to the wii and adding wii controls... yeah ok, not very original. for instance I did not purchase RE4 wii because eh, the gamecube game is fine for me. I own a ps2 but didn't get RE 4 for that either -despite- the extra content, because the gc version does it for me. that's all neither here nor there tho. the point is fin's argument has a fundamental flaw that I just can't ignore, which is that galaxy 2 is not evidence to support their lack of ideas, it's just them answering a calling, and they're going to do more than just add new levels, there's now a new character in yoshi. what ever else is in store for us in this game I do not know, but that's already enough to make those fans happy, and enough for me to not harsh on them for being stagnant.

I know it was Finalark that said that...and I'm pretty sure that when he said Galaxy 2 was a rehash he didn't mean simply in the idea of a sequel to Galaxy. He never specified, but that doesn't mean that it was just the idea of the game that he was talking about.

As I said, they can respond to what the fans want AND still be innovative.

But when it comes down to it, they did it because Galaxy sold well. It's the 6th best selling game on the Wii, at 8.2 million.

As Falcon said to me (and gave me express permission to tell you all he said): "Nintendo only gives a **** about its wallet."

Again, this makes perfect sense for them, I'm just irked that people keep pretending that Nintendo totally cares about the fans when they've made it perfectly clear that they don't.

 

[finalark]

I know it was Finalark that said that...and I'm pretty sure that when he said Galaxy 2 was a rehash he didn't mean simply in the idea of a sequel to Galaxy. He never specified, but that doesn't mean that it was just the idea of the game that he was talking about.

To be clear, I'm perfectly find with direct sequels (I loved Majora's Mask). What I meant when I said "it looks like a rehash" is that from what we do know about the game, it looks like it will be just like Mario Galaxy, just with some new power ups, some new levels, and Yoshi. And if it ends up being shorter than the original then that will pretty much prove my point in my book.

As I said, they can respond to what the fans want AND still be innovative.

Remember back in the N64 days? Everyone wanted another Zelda title after OoT, so they gave it to them in the form of Majora's Mask. And it was innovative, and a great game to top it off.

But when it comes down to it, they did it because Galaxy sold well. It's the 6th best selling game on the Wii, at 8.2 million.

As Falcon said to me (and gave me express permission to tell you all he said): "Nintendo only gives a **** about its wallet."

Exactly, that's how the business world works. They're clearly making more money off of casual gamers so why should they go back to their original audience? If you're looking at it from a business perspective, it's a great move. And because they seem perfectly aware that fans are hungry for some real games, they know that they can release Galaxy 2 and their "core" audiance will buy it regardless of if it's a rehash or not.

 

[urdailywater]

It's kind of sad how the gaming world kind of went from a small thing "for the fans" to a big business. I really do agree on this. But hey it was bound to happen.

Please your customers.


I'm not complaining though, not that much. I'm pleased myself.

 

[Sucumbio]

I'll get you next time, Gadget. So okay, my Mario Galaxy 2 agrement doesn't hold water anymore I guess. Although I do find it odd that for the first time in ages Nintendo is actually listening to their fans and giving them what they want.

That is, as long as it's Metroid, Zelda or Mario. You know, a series that's garenteed to sell.

I'll take it. And... eh, it -could- hold water if you didn't use galaxy 2 as an example, your citing of MP Trilogy IS a valid argument, and I will go so far as to say I agree with you on that. I mean, srly how many fans are there of this series that want it on Wii Controls? Me, admittedly, but can't be THAT many.. this was an easy port for them essentially, and a way to make more $ on titles that have already been out for ages. Any ports of old gc games to wii = lack of innovation, quite literally and I'll buy that argument.

That second bit though... heheh ahhhh . my argument against that is as valid as your argument for. from my eyes, they're doing what they always do, because their -strength- is in first party development. from your eyes, they're lacking innovation because there's a striking lack of 3rd party titles and first party newcomers. we can't both be right on this, and yet both are true, so... that's gonna be one of those arguments I kindly withdraw from.

 

[finalark]

I'll take it. And... eh, it -could- hold water if you didn't use galaxy 2 as an example, your citing of MP Trilogy IS a valid argument, and I will go so far as to say I agree with you on that. I mean, srly how many fans are there of this series that want it on Wii Controls? Me, admittedly, but can't be THAT many.. this was an easy port for them essentially, and a way to make more $ on titles that have already been out for ages. Any ports of old gc games to wii = lack of innovation, quite literally and I'll buy that argument.

It's good to see that we can civily agree on something.

That second bit though... heheh ahhhh . my argument against that is as valid as your argument for. from my eyes, they're doing what they always do, because their -strength- is in first party development. from your eyes, they're lacking innovation because there's a striking lack of 3rd party titles and first party newcomers. we can't both be right on this, and yet both are true, so... that's gonna be one of those arguments I kindly withdraw from.

It's one of those "no one is wrong, no one is right" situations. Well, it's good to see that we can civily both withdraw from said argument.

 

[Firus]

I'll take it. And... eh, it -could- hold water if you didn't use galaxy 2 as an example, your citing of MP Trilogy IS a valid argument, and I will go so far as to say I agree with you on that. I mean, srly how many fans are there of this series that want it on Wii Controls? Me, admittedly, but can't be THAT many.. this was an easy port for them essentially, and a way to make more $ on titles that have already been out for ages. Any ports of old gc games to wii = lack of innovation, quite literally and I'll buy that argument.

You'd be surprised how many people there are that apparently can't stand GC controls for the first two Primes. I personally prefer the air GameCube controls for them, but most don't.

I think MPT is actually a decent port to Wii from GameCube, though. They added the motion controls, some slight upgrades for what the Wii can now handle (I did say slight, since the Wii is basically exactly the same as the GameCube hardware-wise), a medal system for all three games, and the art booklet. Plus they packed all three games in for $50. It's sort of like a collector's edition of the trilogy.

It's still a GameCube ---> Wii port, but it was not only economically smart for them but a smart buy for gamers.

If you want to cite the best examples of it, cite the New Play Control games.

But uh...could I just point out that you accepted his "surrender", so-to-speak, and ignored my perfectly logical rebuttal? 'Cause I ain't surrendering so easy at all.

 

[comboking]

Sony only cares about their wallets too. They have hit a brick wall too. IMO

 

[PassWurD]

I was frozen today!

 

[Firus]

Sony only cares about their wallets too. They have hit a brick wall too. IMO

Oh, pretty much every game company only cares about their wallets, and I'll admit Nintendo has always been this way. It just wasn't obvious since prior to now, keeping their wallets full also entailed pleasing the fans.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Pretty much Capcom is one of a few company that listen to their fans. ☆

 

[finalark]

I was frozen today!

I saw that episode of the Nostalgia Critic.

Anyway, no, I don't think Sony's hit a brick wall. They have some good ideas, Uncharted 2 was great (Naughty Dog is a great second party dev. btw) and the new Ratchet and Clank games are ten times better then the old ones (Insomniac's an even better one).

 

[CRASHiC]

☆ Pretty much Capcom is one of a few company that listen to their fans. ☆

Actually, so does Ark, in fact to a greater extent. Ark holds balance test that any fan can come and try out and give Ark ideas on how to balance the game.

Oh, pretty much every game company only cares about their wallets, and I'll admit Nintendo has always been this way. It just wasn't obvious since prior to now, keeping their wallets full also entailed pleasing the fans.

Here, let me correct this

Oh, pretty much every game company only cares about their wallets, and I'll admit Nintendo has always been this way. It just wasn't obvious since prior to now, keeping their wallets full also entailed pleasing me.

Simply because use were not entertained does not mean that other Nintendo fans are entertained. In fact, many of your gripes about what Nintendo is doing is just down right silly.

Let's take your complaint about the help code. I proposed several situations that were so horribly stupid that a help code would have saved me from litterally breaking my controller or walking past a barely visible door for an entire month.

Your response: You can go on the internet and look up how to beat it.

No, that is a horrible way to look at it. That's like saying that balancing a game's difficulty is stupid because you can load in Action Replay or Gameshark. Here we see an attempt by the developer to make the game more enjoyable for those who may other wise become other wise unjustly frustrated, as I was with Paper Mario Thousand Year Door. Its an attempt to solve something the developer can not accurately predict and respond to: gamer's fault. Now, you your self had argued earlier in another blog that games were suppose to be fun, not hard, and here is an attempt by a developer attempting to take out not the technical difficulty but to cut down on the gamer just missing something within the design. The helper code is a wonderful game addition, and seeing it as a bad thing because someone can access the same information outside of the game is silly. While we are at that, let's not include instruction manuals or in game move set guides because I can just go onto SRK and find all that information out on my own. No.

Nintendo has the sales and the statistics on play time to show that gamers are happy and appeased with what they have brought them, simply because you and others are not does not mean that Nintendo fans as a whole have not had their needs met.

Uncharted 2 was great

No it wasn't. That game is only passable. Its really mediocre. The story line is bland. The charecters are similar to Uncharted 1 except the girl is british :gasp: and the gameplay is just as befuddle, boring, and mediocre as the first. The only major change is the option for stealth now, but that's done horribly because of how much that man, as Yahtzee put it, loves walls. The game has tons of problem and doesn't do anything drastically different than the first one at all. In fact, that game is the epitome next to only Heavily Sword, Bioshock, and Fall Out 3 (Oblivion with Guns) of why I don't play anything on Xbox or PS3 except for MGS4 and Street Fighter and Blazblue. Its a game based on aesthetic things and not game play, by large, other wise there wouldn't be ledges made detailed with no difference to the ones that I am actually suppose to be jumping on. The game has very little substance to it that I see.

Regardless of my opinion of that game, do you not see Finlark that there is a giant whole in what you are arguing? Let's review your points

1. Nintendo is out of ideas, they are rehashing old material.
2. Nintendo isn't appeasing its fans which want everything exactly the same.

So which one is it? Is Nintendo over appeasing its fans or is it NOT appeasing them, despite all the numbers pointing to Nintendo appeasing their fans?

 

[finalark]

No it wasn't. That game is only passable. Its really mediocre. The story line is bland. The charecters are similar to Uncharted 1 except the girl is british :gasp: and the gameplay is just as befuddle, boring, and mediocre as the first. The only major change is the option for stealth now, but that's done horribly because of how much that man, as Yahtzee put it, loves walls. The game has tons of problem and doesn't do anything drastically different than the first one at all. In fact, that game is the epitome next to only Heavily Sword, Bioshock, and Fall Out 3 (Oblivion with Guns) of why I don't play anything on Xbox or PS3 except for MGS4 and Street Fighter and Blazblue. Its a game based on aesthetic things and not game play, by large, other wise there wouldn't be ledges made detailed with no difference to the ones that I am actually suppose to be jumping on. The game has very little substance to it that I see.

Well someone here is felling particularly subjectively aggressive tonight. Don't forget that Yahtzee also said that isn't wasn't a bad game, since you feel like dragging his reviews into this. And now that I think about it, did you ever play the game? Maybe the reason why the characters are all so similar is oh I don't know.... because they're the same cast of the last game? And guess what? The British girls is nothing like the girl from the last game. At all. Hell, they're pretty much polar opposites. Although I do agree that the story was pretty bland (they sure as hell enjoyed recycling plot elements from the last game) from a game play perspective that's where it hits. I don't know what you're talking about with the wall thing, I never had that problem. And the combat was good, this time they gave you a lot more options beyond the stealth with the way the stages were laid out or maybe you were just too busy to find something to complain about to notice. Like the platforming, which people seriously give a lot more crap than it deserves.

Regardless of my opinion of that game, do you not see Finlark that there is a giant whole in what you are arguing? Let's review your points

1. Nintendo is out of ideas, they are rehashing old material.
2. Nintendo isn't appeasing its fans which want everything exactly the same.

So which one is it? Is Nintendo over appeasing its fans or is it NOT appeasing them, despite all the numbers pointing to Nintendo appeasing their fans?

Instead of trying to find holes in my points, how about you go back and think about everything that's been said?

Nintendo is out of ideas, so they keep rehashing old material. However, they also are starting to ignore the "core" audience in favor for casual gamers, displeasing the "core" audience.

Is that clear enough for you?

 

[Sucumbio]

But uh...could I just point out that you accepted his "surrender", so-to-speak, and ignored my perfectly logical rebuttal? 'Cause I ain't surrendering so easy at all.

Fair enough.

I know it was Finalark that said that...and I'm pretty sure that when he said Galaxy 2 was a rehash he didn't mean simply in the idea of a sequel to Galaxy. He never specified, but that doesn't mean that it was just the idea of the game that he was talking about.

Fin's original statement in the OP was illogical, and so yeah, he retracted, and now we've both agreed that galaxy2 isn't a good example to use in demonstrating nintendo's lack of creativity. MP Trilogy and other GC ports is however a better more logical illustration of this, in the literal truth and in practice.

As I said, they can respond to what the fans want AND still be innovative.

True, and the honest hope of any good game designer. I totally forgot about SMBW2: Yoshi's Island, definitely a good sequel, not just a rehash. But yeah, 3 sequels on NES (all different @ CRASHiC) 2 on SNES, none on 64, none on GC, 2 on Wii. So it seems as if nintendo's actually breaking their recent trend, and going back to same-console sequels. I do not doubt for a second that there will be innovation hidden in the pixels of galaxy 2. It's a fun game for many, and it'll be fun to revisit the game in its sequel.

But when it comes down to it, they did it because Galaxy sold well. It's the 6th best selling game on the Wii, at 8.2 million.

As Falcon said to me (and gave me express permission to tell you all he said): "Nintendo only gives a **** about its wallet."

Well ok, this has been stated, and I don't think anyone, myself included, will refute that nintendo is making a good and strong business decision here. This is the time that's hardest on console generations. They've all been out for a while now, and all they have going now is the titles. Nintendo is obviously re-trending as I pointed out above, and they have the numbers to back the decision, it's a no-brainer for them as you've pointed out.

Again, this makes perfect sense for them, I'm just irked that people keep pretending that Nintendo totally cares about the fans when they've made it perfectly clear that they don't.

This is why I didn't respond before... cause... I don't know how to respond to this. I think its good that the fans want what nintendo wants. They wanna make $ on a sure thing, and the fans want the game. It's a win win. Sure it doesn't always work that way, this forum is filled with plenty of nay-sayers when it comes to Brawl for instance, but, eh, nintendo didn't get to be the giant corp it is by listening to whiny kids ***** (not implying you) they make their decisions based on sound business models, and their game creation process is VERY protected. Remember the 'ole Nintendo Seal of Quality? That was them caring... maybe it's gone, maybe they're guilty of allowing too much crap to come out to fill up the Wii side of the wal-mart shelf... but I still feel their love. MP Corruption was tight, other M will kick *** from what I've seen, and a nice return to platforming and away from FPS, Zelda... eh a kick in the nads for most, TP was a flop for so many, but I actually liked it, just, couldn't hold onto it, the wolf thing got really lame, lol Nah, there's not enough fowl ups to warrant me agreeing nintendo doesn't care, they're just them, and they've been at this for a while now. The only thing I fear is what will become of them when the creators retire, when its left in the hands of the new generation of developers. Maybe it'll be awesome, but that's for another discussion.

 

[LoganW]

he tries to find holes in your points because he's a debater