Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dream1ng]

You're right, I just think Red or whatever you wanna say the trainer is officially named is enough to make it at least slightly more than 3 fighters' worth of resources.

Yeah, in a sense that's correct. If you had to round it, I think it's closer to 3 than 4 though. However, the "standard" for work required for a vet itself isn't... standard, given it'd be a lot more work to bring back, like, Olimar, Ice Climbers and Kirby than, let's say, DK, Fox and Mario. Let alone characters like Hero, Steve and Kazuya.

 

[SharkLord]

Lately I've been thinking about the question of indie fighters. I remember one good description of them as that indies often fall victim to being flavor-of-the-week, where the big face of indies has some time in the limelight and then slowly fades into obscurity. Indies don't always have the manpower to keep throwing out constant installments, and because there's just so many indies nowadays it can be a bit tricky to get in the spotlight in the first place.

So that got me thinking, what indie darlings have stayed relevant? What indies have both the acclaim and the staying power to have a shot next game? So I decided to compile a list of every indie game that has a strong-to-okayish shot. I dunno exactly how likely any of these would be, but I think the're at least a feasible possibility

• Minecraft - I mean. We literally have Steve already. I don't think this needs elaboration. Dunno if it would squeeze in another fighter, but if Steve sticks around I could definitely see him getting some more content
• Undertale - Probably the indie frontrunner. It was friggin' everywhere on release, everyone knows Sans Undertale, Sans is actually in Smash as a Mii, and it's got a sequel-spinoff-successor-thing with Deltarune. Out of all the games on the list, I'd say it's got the biggest shot at being added to Smash
• Hades - Hades won a lot of awards when it released, was a breakout hit for Supergiant, and now it's getting a sequel, something I don't think Supergiant has done before. Hades hit it big and kept the momentum going, and we even got a Zagreus spirit out of nowhere. I'd say Hades has solidified itself pretty well
• Rivals of Aether - Another platform fighter like Smash, RoA's carried on with spinoffs and a sequel, expanding the gameplay and completely revamping the art style. I haven't heard quite as much hubbub around Rivals versus some of the other titles, but from what I can gather it seems decently big for an indie. I'd say it's worth consideration
• Touhou - Touhou's a weird case. It's been going on since before there even was a Super Smash Bros., but until recently it hasn't had much Nintendo presence. It's a huge phenomenon in Japan and has been trying to expand in the West recently, but most of that popularity is from fan content rather than the actual games. Touhou reads to me as a Joker or Terry sorta deal; There's a logical precedent but it's not the first thing you'd associate with Nintendo
• Shantae - Also like Touhou, kinda unconventional. Shantae is much older than other indies, but I dunno, I don't think any of her games have been megaton hits. Still, WayForward has been pretty prolific and even got to make the Advance Wars remake, and Shantae was popular enough to get a Mii Costume and song for Ultimate. I wouldn't count her out entirely
• Shovel Knight - Shovel Knight is iffy. He was the face of indies during the mid-2010s boom and was the undisputed cameo king, but he's cooled down nowadays as Yacht Club moves on to other projects. That said, he is an Assist Trophy, and that's saying a lot. He might have enough legacy value to carry him on, but he doesn't feel as relevant anymore
• Hollow Knight - It's super influential in the indie sphere, and everyone's eagerly awaiting Silksong... But also, do you really think we're getting Silksong anytime soon? Still, it's worth mentioning since it's actually getting a sequel, so it still retains some degree of relevance
• Cuphead - Well... No sequel as far I know, but we finally got the DLC, we have a Cuphead Mii, and it actually got a TV show to it's name. I'd say that's pretty decent
• Five Night's At Freddy's - It's a continuous series, which is more than most indies can say. It also managed to get a friggin' movie, which is also pretty dang big. And it's got a presence on Nintendo systems, so Nintendo's certainly aware of it
• Celeste - Might be kind of a darkhorse pick, but it was a Game of the Year candidate, recieved lots of critical praise, and every so often it gets a little companion piece, like Celeste 2 for the Pico, or the 3D Celeste 64. There hasn't been a full sequel yet and the devs have moved on to Earthblade, but hey, it's worth mentioning

 

[ninjahmos]

If Nintendo and SONY ever allow PlayStation characters in Smash, I think a few good picks could be Ratchet & Clank, Jak & Daxter, Sly Cooper, Sackboy or even Spike from Ape Escape.

 

[TheQuester]

Honestly i think stating something as absolute/definitive for the next game is silly.
We don't even know what will next game even be like, a Smash 6, a reboot, a DX port...
There could be 0, 5, 10, 15 or even 20 cuts, we don't know, we're all guessing here at the end of the days.....i mean sure some stuff like Inkling returning is common sense or stuff like spirits not comming back is more likely than classic mode not comming back, but everything is up in the air.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Pokémon Trainer used to be top tier in competitive because of the numerous advantages they had per Pokemon what are you talking about?

Being a hater is fine. That comment is just wrong.

Except, he's not top tier anymore, is he? So now, he's just 3x as much work to play, for no reason.

Unless the next game is on hardware equal to or weaker than the 3DS, Trainer is coming back as is.

The 3DS is literally the only reason he wasn't in For. And it was because the hardware literally couldn't pull it off not "it's toow muwch wowrk... "
Or should we expect the Ice Climbers to be scrapped too because "they were too much work and only came back for Everyone Is Here"?

You say that but...the 3DS is the only reason Shiek and Zero Suit Samus got split off into separate Fighters.

But in Ultimate, they didn't go back to being a part of Zelda and Samus.

How is it three times the work when they’ve already been coded and programmed into the Smash engine? You’re acting as if they remake vets from scratch in every new Smash, and you gotta know that’s not true.

You gotta know that we have no way of knowing that yet because we have no idea what Smash 6 looks like.

Unless you can find something that substantiates your claims, I’m just gonna say no.

You can say whatever you want. But your claims are just as unsubstantiated as his. Because we have no information yet.

Best case IMHO Next game gets 5 Zelda characters

Link
Zelda
Ganondorf
?
?

Impa
Toon Link

I don’t want to lose Sheik but that’s a tough one.

I'm willing to lose a 2nd Zelda if it gets us Impa.

I'd actually say it's 4 times the work, not just because the trainer has to be modeled and animated but also because they need to have a place for him to stand in the background of every stage, including every stop a touring stage makes

All the Trainer stuff though is purely cosmetic. It doesn't effect gameplay, which means it's probably a lot less work.

 

[Will]

Except, he's not top tier anymore, is he? So now, he's just 3x as much work to play, for no reason.

He’s Top 15. imo, anyway. he’s an evo finalist.

In an 80+ character roster.

Only Pikachu gets better results out of the Poke-crew. You still have plenty of good reason to play Pokemon Trainer.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

For what it's worth (not much, but still) I've always found the Ice Climbers and Pokémon Trainer showing up before the "Everyone is here!" slogan in the first Ultimate trailer like a way of saying that these characters are Smash mainstays, they were just sitting the latest game out. Like they would have come back regardless.
Pichu by comparison was positioned right after the "Everyone is here!" to reinforce that they meant EVERYONE.

Anyways. That trailer was so epic.
I don't want them to cut Pichu and Young Link right after they came back :'(

 

[dream1ng]

For what it's worth (not much, but still) I've always found the Ice Climbers and Pokémon Trainer showing up before the "Everyone is here!" slogan in the first Ultimate trailer like a way of saying that these characters are Smash mainstays, they were just sitting the latest game out. Like they would have come back regardless.
Pichu by comparison was positioned right after the "Everyone is here!" to reinforce that they meant EVERYONE.

Anyways. That trailer was so epic.
I don't want them to cut Pichu and Young Link right after they came back :'(

Y'all heard it here first, Luigi and Yoshi probably gonna get the axe

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Speaking of Pokemon Trainer, small thing I wish they did in Ultimate considering Charizard had Mega Charizard X as a Final Smash in 4, but if Triple Finish comes back, can Charizard Mega Evolve into Charizard Y for that? Wouldn't change anything mechanically about Triple Finish, I just think it'd be a nice little additional flourish.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Except, he's not top tier anymore, is he? So now, he's just 3x as much work to play, for no reason.

Playing as three separate characters in a single match is cool. Having them be the three Kanto starters at different evolutions is cool. Not everything is about tiers; sometimes you can just have a novel concept and people will find fun in that.

 

[fogbadge]

Speaking of Pokemon Trainer, small thing I wish they did in Ultimate considering Charizard had Mega Charizard X as a Final Smash in 4, but if Triple Finish comes back, can Charizard Mega Evolve into Charizard Y for that? Wouldn't change anything mechanically about Triple Finish, I just think it'd be a nice little additional flourish.

sounds like it would work

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Playing as three separate characters in a single match is cool. Having them be the three Kanto starters at different evolutions is cool. Not everything is about tiers; sometimes you can just have a novel concept and people will find fun in that.

Besides; Pokemon Trainer is in the higher set of tiers. Unlike in Brawl, where they were bogged down by gimmicks. Pyra/Mythra also, like Pokemon Trainer, do pretty well as a team.

The only Transformation mechanic that actually didn't work well was Zelda/Sheik. The rest work fine, they just needed fine-tuning for PT first. It's just too bad Rex couldn't see more use for Pythra.

 

[ScrubReborn]

With Trainer, it's probably just a question of "Will they have time?" I imagine their game plan with Trainer is, they start off planning to bring back the whole squad, and then start developing Charizard first. Then if for whatever reason they determine it's not viable to finish Trainer, they can easily pivot to Solozard, which seems to be their emergency backup plan.

And honestly I'm not as confident in the squad being a total lock in for the future as some others; I agree they only sat out Smash 4 'cause of the 3DS, but we're also in a different environment now where we'll most likely gonna downsize for the first time. I'd guess Trainer's in the upper half of the vet priority list, Sakurai clearly values him, but he's still a three in one character, who I agree probably wouldn't get in the way of newcomers, but fellow veterans is another story, and where that stacks up for him when they'll probably need to be more conserative than before with vets is a question mark for me.

I do think they'll find Trainer worth the extra effort, and I'm sure they'll be able to come up with a diverse spread of popular veterans while fitting him in, but I don't think a "Well, we can probably fit in two more Pokemon veterans in our dev schedule. We COULD try to finish Squirtle and Ivysaur for a full Trainer set... orrr we could prioritize, idk Jigglypuff and Incineroar instead and see if we can do the others later and if not, SoloZard" type scenario is out there if dev time is low enough and I'm not confident that coin flip would be in Trainer's favor.

What I'm sure of though, is that they're not throwing up the white flag on him at the start of development. Smash 4 Solozard was a compromise, not the vision. Sakurai's not the type to compromise unless he needs to. And people love this Trainer kid and his weirdo squad, seriously so many people play them, it's insane. So he'll damn sure at least try to bring the gang back. I still think he more likely returns than not, but I think his odds are closer to, idk, 60-40.

TLDR: I just want man

 

[DarthEnderX]

Not everything is about tiers

Good thing it wasn't the only reason I gave then.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Lately I've been thinking about the question of indie fighters. I remember one good description of them as that indies often fall victim to being flavor-of-the-week, where the big face of indies has some time in the limelight and then slowly fades into obscurity. Indies don't always have the manpower to keep throwing out constant installments, and because there's just so many indies nowadays it can be a bit tricky to get in the spotlight in the first place.

So that got me thinking, what indie darlings have stayed relevant? What indies have both the acclaim and the staying power to have a shot next game? So I decided to compile a list of every indie game that has a strong-to-okayish shot. I dunno exactly how likely any of these would be, but I think the're at least a feasible possibility

• Minecraft - I mean. We literally have Steve already. I don't think this needs elaboration. Dunno if it would squeeze in another fighter, but if Steve sticks around I could definitely see him getting some more content
• Undertale - Probably the indie frontrunner. It was friggin' everywhere on release, everyone knows Sans Undertale, Sans is actually in Smash as a Mii, and it's got a sequel-spinoff-successor-thing with Deltarune. Out of all the games on the list, I'd say it's got the biggest shot at being added to Smash
• Hades - Hades won a lot of awards when it released, was a breakout hit for Supergiant, and now it's getting a sequel, something I don't think Supergiant has done before. Hades hit it big and kept the momentum going, and we even got a Zagreus spirit out of nowhere. I'd say Hades has solidified itself pretty well
• Rivals of Aether - Another platform fighter like Smash, RoA's carried on with spinoffs and a sequel, expanding the gameplay and completely revamping the art style. I haven't heard quite as much hubbub around Rivals versus some of the other titles, but from what I can gather it seems decently big for an indie. I'd say it's worth consideration
• Touhou - Touhou's a weird case. It's been going on since before there even was a Super Smash Bros., but until recently it hasn't had much Nintendo presence. It's a huge phenomenon in Japan and has been trying to expand in the West recently, but most of that popularity is from fan content rather than the actual games. Touhou reads to me as a Joker or Terry sorta deal; There's a logical precedent but it's not the first thing you'd associate with Nintendo
• Shantae - Also like Touhou, kinda unconventional. Shantae is much older than other indies, but I dunno, I don't think any of her games have been megaton hits. Still, WayForward has been pretty prolific and even got to make the Advance Wars remake, and Shantae was popular enough to get a Mii Costume and song for Ultimate. I wouldn't count her out entirely
• Shovel Knight - Shovel Knight is iffy. He was the face of indies during the mid-2010s boom and was the undisputed cameo king, but he's cooled down nowadays as Yacht Club moves on to other projects. That said, he is an Assist Trophy, and that's saying a lot. He might have enough legacy value to carry him on, but he doesn't feel as relevant anymore
• Hollow Knight - It's super influential in the indie sphere, and everyone's eagerly awaiting Silksong... But also, do you really think we're getting Silksong anytime soon? Still, it's worth mentioning since it's actually getting a sequel, so it still retains some degree of relevance
• Cuphead - Well... No sequel as far I know, but we finally got the DLC, we have a Cuphead Mii, and it actually got a TV show to it's name. I'd say that's pretty decent
• Five Night's At Freddy's - It's a continuous series, which is more than most indies can say. It also managed to get a friggin' movie, which is also pretty dang big. And it's got a presence on Nintendo systems, so Nintendo's certainly aware of it
• Celeste - Might be kind of a darkhorse pick, but it was a Game of the Year candidate, recieved lots of critical praise, and every so often it gets a little companion piece, like Celeste 2 for the Pico, or the 3D Celeste 64. There hasn't been a full sequel yet and the devs have moved on to Earthblade, but hey, it's worth mentioning

I think Terraria weirdly gets left out of these kinds of conversations, that game is massive. It's one of the best selling games of all time and is on pretty much every platform with continued support. I could very easily see it getting some kind of content, it's no stranger to crossovers, and to be honest the Terrarian as a fighter seems like a kind of sensible curveball to me. I also think it's likely Among Us will have content next game.

Beyond that, I can think of a fair few other notable indies that have a lot of staying power under that metric. Binding of Isaac, Darkest Dungeon, Rocket League (you could argue this one stopped being indie in a similar way to Minecraft), Stardew Valley, Amnesia, Cave Story still I would say, etc. That's all under a lens of modern indie games, there's obvs a bunch of older games which started out indie but have evolved beyond that like Rogue and Rollercoaster Tycoon and Tetris and stuff. Shoutouts to Umihara Kawase.

If Nintendo and SONY ever allow PlayStation characters in Smash, I think a few good picks could be Ratchet & Clank, Jak & Daxter, Sly Cooper, Sackboy or even Spike from Ape Escape.

I can see why people tend to gravitate to picking a more cartoony character, but I feel like Smash has gone far enough that a more human character wouldn't be less fitting at this point. I would say if you were to judge based on "which character fits the vibe the best", Aloy is the best pick. She gels very well with Link and a lot of the fantasy cast, she's from a T-rated game and uses interesting weapons that fit into Smash, she's already been in other crossovers with similar eccentric casts, and she's a fairly iconic character who's very important to Sony and fits the style of a lot of modern SIE games. I would say in terms of likeliness if a Sony rep were to ever happen, which is obviously a small chance, it would probably be Kratos first and then her.

Just anecdotally speaking, I see a weird amount of requests for Aloy from less super hardcore fans. Just like "yeah Smash still has a lot of good characters they could add, Aloy would be cool". It sorta makes sense anyways

 

[Gorgonzales]

Lately I've been thinking about the question of indie fighters. I remember one good description of them as that indies often fall victim to being flavor-of-the-week, where the big face of indies has some time in the limelight and then slowly fades into obscurity. Indies don't always have the manpower to keep throwing out constant installments, and because there's just so many indies nowadays it can be a bit tricky to get in the spotlight in the first place.

So that got me thinking, what indie darlings have stayed relevant? What indies have both the acclaim and the staying power to have a shot next game? So I decided to compile a list of every indie game that has a strong-to-okayish shot. I dunno exactly how likely any of these would be, but I think the're at least a feasible possibility

• Minecraft - I mean. We literally have Steve already. I don't think this needs elaboration. Dunno if it would squeeze in another fighter, but if Steve sticks around I could definitely see him getting some more content
• Undertale - Probably the indie frontrunner. It was friggin' everywhere on release, everyone knows Sans Undertale, Sans is actually in Smash as a Mii, and it's got a sequel-spinoff-successor-thing with Deltarune. Out of all the games on the list, I'd say it's got the biggest shot at being added to Smash
• Hades - Hades won a lot of awards when it released, was a breakout hit for Supergiant, and now it's getting a sequel, something I don't think Supergiant has done before. Hades hit it big and kept the momentum going, and we even got a Zagreus spirit out of nowhere. I'd say Hades has solidified itself pretty well
• Rivals of Aether - Another platform fighter like Smash, RoA's carried on with spinoffs and a sequel, expanding the gameplay and completely revamping the art style. I haven't heard quite as much hubbub around Rivals versus some of the other titles, but from what I can gather it seems decently big for an indie. I'd say it's worth consideration
• Touhou - Touhou's a weird case. It's been going on since before there even was a Super Smash Bros., but until recently it hasn't had much Nintendo presence. It's a huge phenomenon in Japan and has been trying to expand in the West recently, but most of that popularity is from fan content rather than the actual games. Touhou reads to me as a Joker or Terry sorta deal; There's a logical precedent but it's not the first thing you'd associate with Nintendo
• Shantae - Also like Touhou, kinda unconventional. Shantae is much older than other indies, but I dunno, I don't think any of her games have been megaton hits. Still, WayForward has been pretty prolific and even got to make the Advance Wars remake, and Shantae was popular enough to get a Mii Costume and song for Ultimate. I wouldn't count her out entirely
• Shovel Knight - Shovel Knight is iffy. He was the face of indies during the mid-2010s boom and was the undisputed cameo king, but he's cooled down nowadays as Yacht Club moves on to other projects. That said, he is an Assist Trophy, and that's saying a lot. He might have enough legacy value to carry him on, but he doesn't feel as relevant anymore
• Hollow Knight - It's super influential in the indie sphere, and everyone's eagerly awaiting Silksong... But also, do you really think we're getting Silksong anytime soon? Still, it's worth mentioning since it's actually getting a sequel, so it still retains some degree of relevance
• Cuphead - Well... No sequel as far I know, but we finally got the DLC, we have a Cuphead Mii, and it actually got a TV show to it's name. I'd say that's pretty decent
• Five Night's At Freddy's - It's a continuous series, which is more than most indies can say. It also managed to get a friggin' movie, which is also pretty dang big. And it's got a presence on Nintendo systems, so Nintendo's certainly aware of it
• Celeste - Might be kind of a darkhorse pick, but it was a Game of the Year candidate, recieved lots of critical praise, and every so often it gets a little companion piece, like Celeste 2 for the Pico, or the 3D Celeste 64. There hasn't been a full sequel yet and the devs have moved on to Earthblade, but hey, it's worth mentioning

I think from this list, Undertale and Shantae are the frontrunners. They got deluxe Mii Costumes which I honestly see as the biggest indicator of their popularity, but also I think that them being ongoing series is a big part of it.

I love Rivals but don't really see it getting any Smash content. It's another platform fighter, it'd be kinda redundant. I'd be pleasantly surprised to have ANY Rivals content make it.

One indie game I want to add to the discussion is Crypt of the Necrodancer, for one big reason:

It's still kinda wild to me that Nintendo gave the go-ahead to an indie team to make a spinoff/crossover involving Zelda in this much of a capacity. I'm expecting Cadence to at least get a spirit/trophy/whatever next Smash.

 

[Sucumbio]

Impa
Toon Link

I can dig TL over YL and Impa over Sheik. My biggest want is an upgraded dorf

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The indie rep is going to be Dynamite Anton and we're just going to have to deal with it :V

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Enter the TRUE king of indies.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

A Hat in Time was released the same year as the Switch, so it's been out for a while, and with no signs of sequel, but it's also gotten a LOT of DLC over the years and Hat Kid would be right at home in an SSB game.

Also, Ori is a pipedream Indie fighter pick of mine.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

A Hat in Time was released the same year as the Switch, so it's been out for a while, and with no signs of sequel, but it's also gotten a LOT of DLC over the years and Hat Kid would be right at home in an SSB game.

Also, Ori is a pipedream Indie fighter pick of mine.

Both of them would be a dream. Hat Kid especially has so many little abilities/attacks that would just be really cool to see in Smash.

Plus, the likes of Mustache Girl existing as a spirit would only elevate SSB.

 

[Gorgonzales]

The indie rep is going to be Dynamite Anton and we're just going to have to deal with it :V

What do you mean "we're just going to have to deal with it"?? Mate, I would embrace Dynamite Anton in Smash!!

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

I'd love to see Miriam from Bloodstained get some form of representation, her potential moveset is great even just for an AT and the game itself is great, it would be awesome to have it get an official crossover with Castlevania given Iga's comments when Simon was added to Smash. Bloodstained 2 any day now I'm sure totally.

 

[ninjahmos]

Not sure if it counts as an indie game, but some Ikaruga representation would be pretty cool.

 

[SharkLord]

I think from this list, Undertale and Shantae are the frontrunners. They got deluxe Mii Costumes which I honestly see as the biggest indicator of their popularity, but also I think that them being ongoing series is a big part of it.

I love Rivals but don't really see it getting any Smash content. It's another platform fighter, it'd be kinda redundant. I'd be pleasantly surprised to have ANY Rivals content make it.

One indie game I want to add to the discussion is Crypt of the Necrodancer, for one big reason:

View attachment 389824

It's still kinda wild to me that Nintendo gave the go-ahead to an indie team to make a spinoff/crossover involving Zelda in this much of a capacity. I'm expecting Cadence to at least get a spirit/trophy/whatever next Smash.

Eh, I don't think Sakurai or Nintendo would discount a series just because of the genre. That seems trivial; If the series is notable enough and would generate enough interest I'm sure they'd go for it.

That said I'm surprised I blanked on Necrodancer. A Zelda crossover title is huge, and turns out they actually are working on another spinoff, Rift of the Necrodancer, so it's evidently still going strong
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2073250/Rift_of_the_NecroDancer/

A Hat in Time was released the same year as the Switch, so it's been out for a while, and with no signs of sequel, but it's also gotten a LOT of DLC over the years and Hat Kid would be right at home in an SSB game.

Also, Ori is a pipedream Indie fighter pick of mine.

A Hat in Time is in a fuzzy situation. It started off strobg, got two DLC expansions, promoted a comminty-made expansion, and then it just dropped of the face of the Earth. I haven't heard jack-squat from AHiT in years. Which is a dang shame, because that game was great. You also make a good point with Ori, seeing as it did well enough to get a sequel. It seems like Moon Studio's moved on to another title, though, so I dunno how much attention is on Ori nowadays

I'd love to see Miriam from Bloodstained get some form of representation, her potential moveset is great even just for an AT and the game itself is great, it would be awesome to have it get an official crossover with Castlevania given Iga's comments when Simon was added to Smash. Bloodstained 2 any day now I'm sure totally.

Can't wait for our third Castlevania rep
I keep forgetting Bloodstained, which is weird because that was one of my favorite games when it dropped. It's already got three titles to it's name through the Curse of the Moon spinoffs, which is more than you can say for most indies, and a fourth is in the works.

I guess the big takeaway today is that I have a poor attention span because I keep getting hit with a bunch of fairly sizeable indies that I keep forgetting about somehow

 

[Ivander]

So far, my currant Top 3 indie wants are Shovel Knight, Miriam from Bloodstained and Shantae. I would have a different Number 1 indie want, but then their owner and company got bought by Epic Games.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Honestly after the Mii Costume, I 100% expect something Undertale/Deltarune related, I just don't know if it'd be Sans specifically. After the newsletter recently where Papyrus explained the "theoretical" scenario of Sans getting into a tournament, making someone else dress as him, and making witty remarks backstage like "wow, i'm pretty bad at this huh?" I feel like Toby thinks the costume is enough for Sans.

That said, I wouldn't rule out someone like Papyrus. That newsletter also ends with "hey bro, have you seen an invitation around here?" so I could see it being classic Toby Fox and Sans-core to follow it up down the line like "glad we found that invite. here you go, bro. it was addressed to you anyway, so have fun."

Plus I like to imagine Papyrus's trailer would be set to specifically a remix of the trailer version of Bonetrousle with the different ending, since it was also used for most of the trailers of Undertale itself lol

 

[cashregister9]

Gabriel would be cool

 

[EarlTamm]

I would love to see a lot of indie reps, though Shantae probably tops the list personally. I do think her series has been on their radar for a while, as not only did they get a mii costume and music track during DLC, but there was also the Shantae and Risky spirits in the base game.

 

[dream1ng]

The best thing to ever happen for Shantae's chances was for Shovel Knight to have become an AT, lol.

 

[Noipoi]

When it comes to indies I’m open to pretty much anyone, someone needs to open those floodgates.

But if my had my pick it’d be someone from Undertale. One of my favorite games of all time.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

I think an Undertale rep if picked would most likely be Sans unless Toby specifically suggested someone else, though there's obviously a lot of factors that go into that on Nintendo's end. I could see Undertale going either way though, I think its content will expanded on next game for sure but it's not impossible it's in ways other than a fighter, like just having more music or giving it a stage with a bunch of cameos, would have to see. Personally I'd like Kris the most, but it's definitely best to wait until Deltarune is over for that. It also kinda goes against the whole theme of the character lol but it is what it is.

In terms of indie reps in general, the ones that stand out to me the most as being the most likely to become playable are Sans, Shovel Knight, Shantae, The Knight or Hornet, Zagreus, and maybe Terrarian as my contrarian edgy pick. Or like, the Imposter.

I definitely have a gut feeling on Zagreus specifically but I wouldn't give any a specific edge. I'd be happy with all of them, though I would probably like Shovel Knight the most (or Umihara Kawase those games are great). I could also see the angle that if anything it might be nice to give the indie rep to a lesser known title, keeping in spirit with the medium, though obviously Nintendo isn't likely to do that.

I will say also I definitely think Shantae's importance is overstated sometimes lol. It's an old franchise, but her games have never sold that well or been that popular even up to the present day, there's tons of other indies which are way more popular and have had a lot more impact. She has a strong dedicated fanbase with a lot of requests for her, which is enough, but I see her sometimes treated as like the queen of indies which is definitely way too much.

 

[Noipoi]

It’s really amazing how Toby Fox has slowly wiggled his way into several major Nintendo franchises.

 

[SharkLord]

Gabriel would be cool

Ultrakill seems super cool, but at the moment I don't think it has any Nintendo presence. For bigger companies that's not an issue - For instance, even if Joker only had a single 3DS spinoff to their name, Nintendo's on good terms with Sega, so they could just lean over and go "Yo mind if we put Joker in Smash Bros.?" But with an indie company, there's usually not many games under their belt, so Nintendo might not have enough of a working relationship established for them to negotiate.

That said, it is still a small indie title, so it can't be that tricky to work out. And apparently Ultrakill's publisher New Blood got a couple titles on the Switch, so it's not like there's no communication with Nintendo like I initially thought

I think an Undertale rep if picked would most likely be Sans unless Toby specifically suggested someone else, though there's obviously a lot of factors that go into that on Nintendo's end. I could see Undertale going either way though, I think its content will expanded on next game for sure but it's not impossible it's in ways other than a fighter, like just having more music or giving it a stage with a bunch of cameos, would have to see. Personally I'd like Kris the most, but it's definitely best to wait until Deltarune is over for that. It also kinda goes against the whole theme of the character lol but it is what it is.

In terms of indie reps in general, the ones that stand out to me the most as being the most likely to become playable are Sans, Shovel Knight, Shantae, The Knight or Hornet, Zagreus, and maybe Terrarian as my contrarian edgy pick. Or like, the Imposter.

I definitely have a gut feeling on Zagreus specifically but I wouldn't give any a specific edge. I'd be happy with all of them, though I would probably like Shovel Knight the most (or Umihara Kawase those games are great). I could also see the angle that if anything it might be nice to give the indie rep to a lesser known title, keeping in spirit with the medium, though obviously Nintendo isn't likely to do that.

I will say also I definitely think Shantae's importance is overstated sometimes lol. It's an old franchise, but her games have never sold that well or been that popular even up to the present day, there's tons of other indies which are way more popular and have had a lot more impact. She has a strong dedicated fanbase with a lot of requests for her, which is enough, but I see her sometimes treated as like the queen of indies which is definitely way too much.

Yeah, I mentioned in my initial list that none of the Shantae games had a massive impact individually, compared to games like Shovel Knight or Cave Story. I think Half-Genie Hero had a pretty successful Kickstater campaign, but I don't think it was that big on release. I think.

Overall, I'd say Shantae's more of a "soft power" in regards to Smash, running on fan requests, cult classic, and good relations with WayForward rather than sheer impact alone.

 

[Ivander]

It’s really amazing how Toby Fox has slowly wiggled his way into several major Nintendo franchises.

Aside from Smash Bros., Pokemon and that one GameFreak game, Little Town Hero or whatever it was called, what else did he manage to get into?

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

I think they should add the Cruelty Squad protagonist but specifically as DLC because I think that would be funny given the game's themes.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I think an Undertale rep if picked would most likely be Sans unless Toby specifically suggested someone else, though there's obviously a lot of factors that go into that on Nintendo's end. I could see Undertale going either way though, I think its content will expanded on next game for sure but it's not impossible it's in ways other than a fighter, like just having more music or giving it a stage with a bunch of cameos, would have to see. Personally I'd like Kris the most, but it's definitely best to wait until Deltarune is over for that. It also kinda goes against the whole theme of the character lol but it is what it is.

I just kinda feel like Toby would suggest someone else since he has a thing with how his characters are represented in external media, like the whole "not selling official merch of Lightners" thing.

The main reason I hope it's Papyrus is because he's like the only major character from Undertale aside from Asriel who we haven't seen yet in Deltarune, so it makes me wonder if he'll have some kind of significance to that story. I also considered someone like Ralsei for a while, but he doesn't really seem like the fighting type, but that also miiiight apply to Papyrus too depending since Undyne said he was really strong, but he's really kind, so it might depend on if Toby thinks knocking opponents off the screen like Smash does to be too much for Papyrus's kind personality, though I wouldn't personally think so.

Now watch, I'm saying all this but Papyrus not being in Deltarune yet is just setting up for a gag later lmao

 

[SharkLord]

If I was to just choose an indie to get into Smash, regardless of likelihood, I'd go with Kril from Another Crab's Treasure

Part of it is recency bias because I just beat the game recently, but it's standout platformer-soulslike with a unique aethetic (re: The ocean is full of trash and crabs formed a society around it), and it's pretty damn well-made for an indie teams' second game. Especially considering that it's in 3D, and I'm pretty sure it's harder to design things when a third dimension is added to the mix.

Moveset-wise, he's got a little fork to stab people with. He could also have a unique mechanic of needing to pull out different shells to protect him, but they'll break after a short amount of time. He also has dedicaed Umami magic spells that could work for specials. Oh, and he can also stab his shell and turn the fork into a hammer, so there's stance fighter potential there. There's a lot you can do in ACT, so there's a lot of places you could take Kril

 

[dream1ng]

I think the indie with the best chance is from Undertale/Deltarune. Primarily because it's one of few indies that has substantial fanbases in both regions. Most lean much more western. But I imagine it will also be fairly requested within this fanbase next time, especially owing to the costume. With the costume itself being, I would guess, the best selling one - which I'm sure was noticed and may also tip things in their favor.

As for the character, I think it's really just Occam's Razor. Undertale is more well known than Deltarune. Sans is the most well-known and probably popular character in Undertale. It wasn't random he's who got the costume. These are the things Smash usually values.

Sure it's possible it's someone else, but he's who I'd put my money on.

And ofc it's not like other indies don't have a chance. There are indies out there that are bigger than Undertale, though less requested in the fanbase. And if characters like Shovel Knight and Cuphead get sequels their popularity will definitely improve. I do think Shantae is a bit overrated, though. I know she became quite requested, but I think she was fortunate to get the representation she did get.

In a similar boat is, imo, Reimu. I know Touhou is big in Japan, with a strong online presence, but I just can't see Nintendo opting for a series that in the west is one, officially, very rarely actually gets localized and two, is quite obscure the moment you get off the internet.

 

[Noipoi]

Aside from Smash Bros., Pokemon and that one GameFreak game, Little Town Hero or whatever it was called, what else did he manage to get into?

Pokemon and Smash were the aforementioned major Nintendo franchises.

We don't talk about Little Town Hero