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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

cashregister9

Smash Hero
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Apr 4, 2020
Messages
8,859
Story Of Seasons/Stardew Valley I think are great picks, it represents a popular subgenre not yet in smash, and are iconic as hell

Modern Harvest Moon I guess also counts but those aren't that great.

Although my pick for a farming game is absolutely Rune Factory, so much gameplay and character potential alongside some amazing music.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

Smash Legend
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Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
Or just give him the Levin Sword outright with a regenerating meter that reverts to Iron if you consume it all too fast.
This would require a restructuring of his normals, but it could work quite well. The Levin Sword would give Robin both great swordfighter style defenses and potent setup zoning offense, but overextending with it would reduce you to the Bronze Sword, which doesn't have quite as much coverage and a pretty abysmal damage output. However, Robin spends a lot of time throwing projectiles so he can give it time to recharge, which in turn makes good management of your special moves even more important. It would give him a similar push and pull with his normals and specials to Hero's MP recharge mechanic.

Yeah, I feel like Robin and Brawl’s Pokemon Trainer fatigue system were two examples of the explicit references to the source material that makes the characters less fun to use. I appreciate what they were going for but I feel like if they want to incorporate mechanics from other games, they should be used to make the character more fun to play.

Drawback mechanics can work but you have to be very careful with them. Plus, it doesn’t even fully make sense for Robin alone to have the weapon break mechanic when that should be true of all Fire Emblem characters. Maybe it’s best to follow the lead of the main series and get rid of the weapon breaking altogether?
Samina and Type Effectiveness didn't work because they were both functionally superflouous. They were supposed to facilitate switching, but if the trio were tighly designed like they are now, they do that all on their own. Instead, Stamina forces you do switch at inoppourtune times, and Type Effectiveness just makes Ivysaur take more damage for no reason (besides another Pokémon Trainer, Squirtle and Charizard weren't worried about...anyone but Olimar...maybe.)

Weapon Durability I think works much better, and can be something built around more easily, though Robin's probably a bad example of it. Steve has it as just one of the mechanics that enforces heavy usage of Mine to make sure he has the resources to run his offense. I've also seen a fan made Link moveset in Rivals of Aether that makes interesting use of the mechanic, though I don't know how it works in practice.


EDIT: The BotW Link video lead me to a reveal trailer for those concrete balls in front of target. Among a lot of other things, it's got a Target Dog projectile who's trajectory and behavior can be influenced by basically it's entire moveset:
  • Using the special move again turns the dog around (at least I assume this is how it's done).
  • If the dog touches a shopping cart, it grabs the cart and goes faster.
  • If you hit it with your grocery projectile the dog gets a bone which seems to make it jump at the ledge, but I'm not sure exactly.
  • If you hit it with...back air? The dog turns around and takes a flying leap.
  • If it hits the Target logo, it chomps on it for a while, creating a lasting hitbox.
I can't even. The Rivals of Aether modding community is built different.
 
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dream1ng

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 24, 2016
Messages
1,979
I've been thinking for some time about how to respond to the beginning of this post or dream1ng's post, and I think it'd be good for me to amend some of the stuff I said.

I think the gist of it is like.....if you asked someone to make a SEGA roster that balances both regions' appeal, it could totally be done. Provided they know their stuff, they could probably strike a good balance. Theoretically it's possible. But I think to me the big thing is.....it still feels weird for me to imagine how that approach would actually be taken were a game like this to officially happen, because we've no real precedent for how that would happen. As I've mentioned, we have so far never seen an official SEGA-adjacent thing that tries to reconcile both perspectives - the usual tradition has been stuff fully geared towards one crowd or another. The closest we've come is maybe PxZ2, but as I've mentioned, there wasn't much space for us to really see the full extent of that potential. So it still feels like this weird thing to think about, it still feels like a big question mark to see how it would actually be done. It's not a matter of "can it be done", because it can, it's moreso that we have no clue how an actual official dev team would handle this. That might seem like I'm splitting hairs but I do think that distinction can be important to make - a fan approach and an official approach can be very different - and I'm not even trying to gatekeep anyone's attempts by claiming they're "not accurate to how it would be done", these are moreso just.....musings. Stray thoughts I have sometimes. I'm moreso just.....curious to see how actual devs would handle this, considering how little precedent we really have - like, which characters do they prioritize? which characters would they consider on either side? Who would be "too Japanese" or "too western" to be considered? What concessions would have to be made? Again, I'm not trying to invalidate anyone who tries, I moreso just.....wonder. It's curiosity more than anything else.

It's funny you mention the Capcom vs. games' attempts in this regard, cause that was exactly what I was thinking about with the whole hypothetical of "JP devs trying to make a roster with international appeal". Like, that to me is the other big "reference point" I've been thinking about throughout this conversation in terms of that approach being taken and how it would be applied to SEGA. The things with them explicitly choosing/cutting characters based on worldwide appeal have been the go-to example in my head that have made me wonder how this would actually be done as opposed to my weeb-ass rosters. So good on you, because I've been thinking about that too.

On the last point, you mention how a character being fun and interesting could be able to overpower any regional blindspots, but I actually think that's precisely why the balanced approach can be so interesting. We think about it in terms of having characters that appeal to each region, but we can flip that to mean we also have characters less familiar to each region and that can serve as cool learning experiences. Like, think about it from the perspective of your average Western fan - you pick up the game, you recognize the likes of Sonic and Yakuza, and if you're older you'll probably know Streets of Rage, Golden Axe, Jet Set Radio, etc......but who's Sakura? Oh, she looks kind of cool actually. What's this giant beetle thing popping out as one of my assists? I wanna know what that's from. This probably applies less to Japanese fans because I can't imagine they'd add anyone who leans too western, but that's the cool thing about this approach, and about crossovers in general, getting pulled in with the faces you know and then seeing all this other stuff you haven't heard of before.

This is gonna sound deranged, but I think a SEGA thing that could actually serve as a pretty good basis for a thing like this is actually.....the SEGA logo that plays before the Sonic movies. Like, the variety of the stuff shown and some of the deep cuts they make are actually kind of admirable, with a good mix of known faces and more obscure stuff. Like, it has a bunch of the well-known-in-the-West staples that fans can latch onto, but it also has plenty of room for the cool weird distinctly Japanese cuts that really add some flavor. Yes, you have Sonic, Monkey Ball, Jet Set Radio, NiGHTS, Streets of Rage.....but then also Sakura Wars, Dynamite Cop, Roommania, 7th Dragon, Guardian Heroes and the like. It feels like a really nice and well-rounded mix of stuff, and I think that might be the ideal approach for a game like this.

Thinking it over, I kind of want to try my hand at a "regionally-balanced" roster now. Seems like it'd be a fun exercise
I still don't think it'd be that tough, tbh. Something along the lines of this:

Need to have:
Sonic
Kiryu or Ichiban
Persona character
SMT character
obviously Segata Sanshiro

Should probably have:
Some mix of Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Shadow
Arle
Bayonetta
Akira Yuki
Sakura Shinguji
Axel Stone (or other SoR character)
another Persona character
another SMT character
either Majima or the other LaD protag
Phantasy Star character

Good choices:
AiAi
Beat (or Gum)
Alex Kidd
Ryo Hazuki
Valkyria character
Vyse
Joe Musashi
more Persona
more Sonic
more VF
more PS

Other options:
Jack Frost
Magician (HotD)
Gilius Thunderhead
NiGHTS
Amigo
Ulala
Billy Hatcher
Vectorman
Derek Stiles
Bruno Delinger
Etrian Odyssey character
Shining character
more Sakura Wars
more SoR
more SMT

Seaman:
Seaman.

And you could add Panzer Dragoon, Crazy Taxi, and, like, Total War characters, but those might work better for stages. And then stuff like Outrun, Space Harrier, Phantasy Zone, Ecco the Dolphin, Catherine, etc. could also make interesting stages.

Oh and if Sega owns Angry Birds now that would probably be in there too.

Edit: added a few I forgot
 
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TheQuester

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 16, 2023
Messages
421
I do wonder if Sony will ever make a Playstation All-Stars Batlte Royale 2, it has been close to 12 years fo probably not lol.

Also, what chances would you give Undertale for a playable character?
 

Speed Weed

Smash Master
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Switch FC
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I still don't think it'd be that tough, tbh. Something along the lines of this:

Need to have:
Sonic
Kiryu or Ichiban
Persona character
SMT character
obviously Segata Sanshiro

Should probably have:
Some mix of Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Shadow
Arle
Bayonetta
Akira Yuki
Sakura Shinguji
Axel Stone (or other SoR character)
another Persona character
another SMT character
either Majima or the other LaD protag
Phantasy Star character

Good choices:
AiAi
Beat (or Gum)
Alex Kidd
Ryo Hazuki
Valkyria character
Vyse
Joe Musashi
more Persona
more Sonic
more VF
more PS

Other options:
Jack Frost
Magician (HotD)
Gilius Thunderhead
NiGHTS
Amigo
Ulala
Billy Hatcher
Vectorman
Derek Stiles
Bruno Delinger
Etrian Odyssey character
Shining character
more Sakura Wars
more SoR
more SMT

Seaman:
Seaman.

And you could add Panzer Dragoon, Crazy Taxi, and, like, Total War characters, but those might work better for stages. And then stuff like Outrun, Space Harrier, Phantasy Zone, Ecco the Dolphin, Catherine, etc. could also make interesting stages.

Oh and if Sega owns Angry Birds now that would probably be in there too.

Edit: added a few I forgot
I guess I should rephrase things more concisely - it's not that I think it's difficult - because like, you just proved that it can be done -, I'm just curious to see how an actual official game would approach this angle since we really haven't gotten to see much of that
 

dream1ng

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 24, 2016
Messages
1,979
I guess I should rephrase things more concisely - it's not that I think it's difficult - because like, you just proved that it can be done -, I'm just curious to see how an actual official game would approach this angle since we really haven't gotten to see much of that
Fair play, I think quite a lot of that boils down to the dev. Capcom would probably take a mix of big names (they could probably take them all... Sega... doesn't have that many...) and deep cuts. They also seem generally cognizant of appealing to both east and west. In the past Monolith focused heavily on the Japanese side, but that was probably because PxZ wasn't even originally set to release outside Japan.

Sakurai would probably treat it like Smash, going from the top down with a few curveballs in the mix. And with Sakurai I suspect we'd get the dude from Space Harrier, pretty sure he's expressed his affinity for that game multiple times before. Though I think he'd have fewer reservations about characters with lopsided popularity than with Smash, as, like you said, many of Sega's series suffer from this much more than Nintendo's.

I imagine Sega themselves would only have the edict of "include Sonic, Yakuza, Persona... and Angry Birds".
 
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JOJONumber691

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 28, 2020
Messages
1,785
Yeah, I feel like Robin and Brawl’s Pokemon Trainer fatigue system were two examples of the explicit references to the source material that makes the characters less fun to use. I appreciate what they were going for but I feel like if they want to incorporate mechanics from other games, they should be used to make the character more fun to play.

Drawback mechanics can work but you have to be very careful with them. Plus, it doesn’t even fully make sense for Robin alone to have the weapon break mechanic when that should be true of all Fire Emblem characters. Maybe it’s best to follow the lead of the main series and get rid of the weapon breaking altogether?
Honestly I would be interested in a Robin who had the ability to repair Levin Sword.
I’ve never played the game but I wouldn’t imagine it would be too much of an issue if they made Animal Crossing characters work.
Yeah but then again it feels like something Sakurai might not want to bring in judging by precedent.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

Smash Legend
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Yeah but then again it feels like something Sakurai might not want to bring in judging by precedent.
...Eh?

We've seen a few times where Sakurai has changed his mind on similar characters. Things like "Villager and Miis don't really fit the game 'cuz they're too peaceful and Pac-Man can't really be a fighter since he's just a circle...OK now that it's been a few years and I've come back to the idea I could totally have the Villager be an accidental fighter, the Miis be custom fighters, and Pac-Man can use the design with arms and legs."

And besides, you've said yourself that Stardew Valley has combat. It's just a matter of making sure that the character isn't just Villager with a sword. I'd say the main thing keeping Stardew Valley out of Super Smash Bros. is being an indie game, and the fan bases of the two games not overlapping much.
 

JOJONumber691

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Yeah. Honestly the fanbases might actually be another reason why I think Stardew might get screwed over, and is why I think games like GTA might be screwed over too. They’re just too different from what Smash has done before. Never say never, especially in terms of Smash, but given Stardew is indie in a genre that’s the complete opposite of Smash’s, I think Stardew just gets screwed over. Again hopefully we get something for Fraymakers, because I genuinely want to see how a character with a farming gimmick could work.
 

pitchfulprocessing

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 13, 2024
Messages
216
I could pretty easily imagine how a Stardew farmer could fight if they were to be implemented, using their infinity sword for most of their normals mixed with the scythe, using the dagger and hoe for aerials, club for smash attacks, and then specials would be stuff like, I dunno, planting a seed which you have to grow repeatedly that gives you stat amps when fully grown, deploying a slime for the down special using the slime incubator which slowly moves across the stage in a straight path to deal damage, side special is riding a horse for a quick burst option, up special is having a chicken carry you upwards or something. Make them a heavy setplay character who can build up to control neutral in spite of their slow frame data and endlag, helped by the disjoints on their normals, but suffers against characters with high mobility or who can zone him out, similar to the role Villager had in Smash 4 but distinct and more focused on stage control.

I mainly just don't think it would really cross Sakurai or Nintendo's mind lol. Stardew would make sense, it's just like, it probably wouldn't come up for no specific reason. I wouldn't be surprised if it got representation and I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't, like most things.
 
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Gorgonzales

Smash Ace
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Jan 23, 2021
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Forgotten Isle
You know what I think Captain Falcon needs for the next Smash game? They should bring back the Falcon screech sound effect from Melee for his Falcon Punch.
It would be cool to see the Falcon Punch evolve into an even flashier move in the next game, similar to trademark attacks of some other FGC characters.

1716507333098.png

(Image credit to Duke of Dorks.)
 

Wonder Smash

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,031
I do wonder if Sony will ever make a Playstation All-Stars Batlte Royale 2, it has been close to 12 years fo probably not lol.
12 years and a whole console generation (PS4) pass by...yeah, very unlikely now.

I've held out hope for a long time because I enjoyed PlayStation All-Stars and really wanted a sequel. I think it would have been a great alternative to Smash. But eventually, I gave up. Sony doesn't seem to care about crossovers nowadays. Crash was a character I would've love to see in PlayStation All-Stars for obvious reasons and prefer to see him in that but lately, I don't even mind if he appears in Smash Bros now.
 
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Gengar84

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
5,891
The only Warriors character I'd actually want.
I’ve I could pick any Warriors characters completely out of bias, my favorites are Gan Ning, Zhu Rong, and Kotaro Fuma. I doubt any of them really have much a chance compared to other more prominent characters but whatever.

As far as characters I feel actually have any chance, I think there’s about five possible options: Lu Bu, Zhao Yun, Nobunaga Oda, Yukimura Sanada, and Orochi/Orochi X. I’d love to see any Warriors character but I think I’d go with Lu Bu out of the realistic options.
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
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Pangaea, 250 MYA
It would be cool to see the Falcon Punch evolve into an even flashier move in the next game, similar to trademark attacks of some other FGC characters.

View attachment 389853
(Image credit to Duke of Dorks.)
I still think they should just recreate this scene. Sephiroth is based on Advent Children, a friggin' movie, we can reference the F-Zero anime
 

dream1ng

Smash Lord
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Messages
1,979
I do wonder if Sony will ever make a Playstation All-Stars Batlte Royale 2, it has been close to 12 years fo probably not lol.

Also, what chances would you give Undertale for a playable character?
I think they saw PSASBR as a failure, so I don't think that brand is continuing.

However, down the road, I could see them trying again with a platform fighter, just because they'll keep looking at Smash and wanting a piece of the pie - as these other companies have. Also, this model is conducive to GaaS and the monetization schemes most of these companies are trying for these days.

The thing is, other than Smash, either these kind of games don't find the success they're looking for, they come out strong but fade quickly, or they only succeed if they aim fairly low.

So I could see another Sony platform fighter coming out one day. But I don't think it will carry PSASBR branding, and I imagine the gameplay/look of the game will purposefully distance itself from their earlier attempt. Which, gameplay wise, is for the best. The super system was interesting but overall not good design.

Plus they own EVO, so they can give it all the preferential promotion they want there.
 
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dream1ng

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 24, 2016
Messages
1,979
If Smash were to go down the GaaS / live-service route, how do you think it should go about it in a non-intrusive way? For one, it shouldn’t involve any real-life money.
If there's no real money they're not going to do it.

The characters are always going to cost something, other than possibly the occasional bonus fighter - which will likely still be tied to buying something - as will easy money cosmetics like skins. There's far far too much money on the table to not monetize that.

What could be offered for free are modes, the small stuff like whatever the spirit equivalent will be, and maybe if we're lucky, stages not tied to a character pack. Even though they did charge for those in 4.

The next game will likely have a longer rollout of modes after launch given they're retaining a full team full time - plus it allows the game to come out quicker, and incentivizes sticking with it. In theory they could also keep updating things like bosses, ATs and Pokemon after launch - those would probably be free.

So in a sense, Smash is already moving in that direction, and will continue to do so. The rub is that, so far, nothing they charge for is that expensive compared to what it can be.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I think they saw PSASBR as a failure, so I don't think that brand is continuing.

However, down the road, I could see them trying again with a platform fighter, just because they'll keep looking at Smash and wanting a piece of the pie - as these other companies have. Also, this model is conducive to GaaS and the monetization schemes most of these companies are trying for these days.

The thing is, other than Smash, either these kind of games don't find the success they're looking for, they come out strong but fade quickly, or they only succeed if they aim fairly low.

So I could see another Sony platform fighter coming out one day. But I don't think it will carry PSASBR branding, and I imagine the gameplay/look of the game will purposefully distance itself from their earlier attempt. Which, gameplay wise, is for the best. The super system was interesting but overall not good design.

Plus they own EVO, so they can give it all the preferential promotion they want there.
Just looking at the other big crossover platform fighters:
  • Sony had 0 faith in PlayStation All Stars: Battle Royale's dev team because it was newly made for the game, and kneecapped it several times throughout the project. Lo and behold, it was a failure, and all DLC plans after the initial wave were canceled.
  • Nickelodeon All Star Brawl very obviously had like, 0 budget. It's sequel is much better due to the initial positive reception.
  • Multiversus seems to really be the first attempt at going all in on the game idea with the funding to pull it off. I've heard there are aspects of the game play that were super rough, but it was also a beta so I guess I'll find out how well it actually does in the coming months.
 

HyperSomari64

Smash Master
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If by some miracle we get a PSASBR sequel, maybe it will include franchises from other branches of Sony, like Sony Pictures.
(And if LeBron James can be in MultiVersus because Space Jam A New Legacy, maybe PSASBR2 will have a musician on the Sony Music label :v)
 
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CannonStreak

Supersonic Warrior
Premium
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Messages
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If by some miracle we get a PSASBR sequel, maybe it will include franchises from other branches of Sony, like Sony Pictures.
(And if LeBron James can be in MultiVersus because Space Jam A New Legacy, maybe PSASBR2 will have a musician on the Sony Music label :v)
For the not-so-likely PSASBR sequel on what you said...

Maybe we can get Tom Holland as himself as an actual character in such a game? :troll:
 

SMAASH! Puppy

Smash Legend
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Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
A poorly-made music video with Sonia and Manic for Sonic
They made a vow their mother will be found SONIC UNDERGROUND!

Man it's been a long time since I watched that show. Never did see if they ever found their mother...Also I love how Manic and Sonya are technically official characters that are Sonic's long lost siblings from an alternate dimension, and their names are even corruptions of Sonic's name.
 

Wonder Smash

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
2,031
I think they saw PSASBR as a failure, so I don't think that brand is continuing.

However, down the road, I could see them trying again with a platform fighter, just because they'll keep looking at Smash and wanting a piece of the pie - as these other companies have. Also, this model is conducive to GaaS and the monetization schemes most of these companies are trying for these days.

The thing is, other than Smash, either these kind of games don't find the success they're looking for, they come out strong but fade quickly, or they only succeed if they aim fairly low.

So I could see another Sony platform fighter coming out one day. But I don't think it will carry PSASBR branding, and I imagine the gameplay/look of the game will purposefully distance itself from their earlier attempt. Which, gameplay wise, is for the best. The super system was interesting but overall not good design.

Plus they own EVO, so they can give it all the preferential promotion they want there.
I think PSAS would have been an exception to all that. Since it was the only other game besides Smash to feature video game mascots, centered around PlayStation at that, it truly had the potential to last a long time and capture the same type of hype Smash has. But there was just other problems that held it back and if Smash and other games like it still haven't convince Sony to make another one by now, then I don't know what will.
 

Oracle Link

Smash Master
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Here is a giant collection of named (And orderd) Smash Pngs i used the roster maker sites collection and added fighters pass 1 and one mario and a couple of zelda ones (i just had them on hand) I tried downsizing those too i hope it worked!
Obvioulsy FP 2 will come (and the couple of alts i missed/ Didnt include) but other than that you can ask me for a couple of pngs to include (Especially for franchises i dont know)
Smash Pngs
Also some names are Japanese :-P
 
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