Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Opossum]

yes they do. they also have most of the things link uses in his smash moveset. for the record classic link tends to mean the original

"Classic" here refers to it being in a Smash context, not a Zelda one.

 

[DarthEnderX]

3B Link! Bow, Bombs, Boomerang!

 

[fogbadge]

"Classic" here refers to it being in a Smash context, not a Zelda one.

you mean the one we usually refer to as “Link”

 

[Louie G.]

I will say I think the pitfall with judging a Nintendo vs Capcom roster, especially from the perspective of a Smash fan

I figured I should back this up with generally how I might think the Nintendo side could look, so here's a rough draft. As a disclaimer I don't wanna continue to distract from the actual Smash discussion here, and I think we should open up / revitalize a thread with this concept, but just before we're totally past it.

Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Donkey Kong
Link, Ganondorf, Samus, Kirby, Tom Nook, Inkling (Agent 3)
Chrom, Tiki, Olimar, Captain Falcon, Fox, Little Mac, Saki, Lip

DLC: Wario, Tetra, Ridley, King Dedede, Shulk

It's roughly the size of MVC3 base. Admittedly, this still doesn't feel like it goes quite far enough. A couple obscure Nintendo picks, a more eccentric Fire Emblem pick in Tiki, a different form of Zelda to shake things up. Tom Nook stands in as the Animal Crossing character this time, and Inkling might be tackled with a slightly different angle in mind. I contemplated Squid Sisters but MvC doesn't quite do duos, or stance characters like Smash since it's a team based fighter. It does showcase how difficult it is to detach yourself from Smash, and also how many cool things have to be absent when condensing Nintendo.

DLC does play into some more Smash-familiar faces, but I think the different gameplay style would let them shine in a new way. Ridley and Dedede are a bit self serving but I think they feel ripe for exploring here. Shulk is by default the move for Xenoblade but maybe they can go a little crazier.

I left off Pokemon, because quite frankly that feels like its own beast. I'd have loved Mewtwo in a game like this but I think Smash is lucky that it's allowed to use Pokemon in the first place. Negotiations as well as catering to Pokemon Co's demands might be more work than it's worth starting from scratch. It would also make it virtually impossible to fit in the weirder picks because you'd have to dedicate like three slots to Pokemon alone.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Well, since we're posting Smash 6 rosters again:

My feelings on this roster are… mixed.

Why is Pokémon Trainer and Pythra separate? I can understand Trainer, but Pythra rely on each other too much on a fundamental level.

And being honest, I don’t personally vibe with any of the newcomers here. Maybe Toad, Bomberman, and maybe Raiden at a stretch, but it feels more like a:

“What if Ultimate kept getting DLC in 2018 and 2018 alone?”

I’m sure this roster has its fans. But as a Smash 6 roster, it’s personally not what I’m looking for.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Why is Pokémon Trainer and Pythra separate?

Because I despise transformations with an reckless, unreasoning hatred.

I’m sure this roster has its fans. But as a Smash 6 roster, it’s personally not what I’m looking for.

 

[SharkLord]

"Classic" here refers to it being in a Smash context, not a Zelda one.

Yeah, I wasn't really sure what to call him. Breath of the Wild is the "main" Zelda thing on the Switch so it would be weird to have the legacy Link as the default, but Skyward Sword is far from the early years of the franchise.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah, I wasn't really sure what to call him. Breath of the Wild is the "main" Zelda thing on the Switch so it would be weird to have the legacy Link as the default, but Skyward Sword is far from the early years of the franchise.

why not just call them Link and Wild Link respectively? If you’re classic link is the one we have now why rename him?

 

[Gengar84]

Because I despise transformations with an reckless, unreasoning hatred.

At least you admit it’s unreasoning lol. I think transformation characters are great in moderation. Of course I wouldn’t want to overload the roster with them but a few here and there where it makes sense is a good thing in my book. I personally find them a lot of fun to play. You could make the argument that it’s twice as many attacks to learn but that’s still true for singular characters like Kazuya (who probably has more attacks than all three of PT’s Pokemon combined). Thats just my view though and there’s nothing wrong with not liking them either.

 

[DarthEnderX]

You could make the argument that it’s twice as many attacks to learn

I do!

They're 2x/3x as much work to play, for no actual advantage.

I also hate they way they eat up the development resources of multiple Fighter. That could be better spent adding additional individual Fighters instead.

 

[Gengar84]

I do!

They're 2x/3x as much work to play, for no actual advantage.

I also hate they way they eat up the development resources of multiple Fighter. That could be better spent adding additional individual Fighters instead.

I guess it’s just because I like messing around with characters rather than feeling like I need to be competitive but that never bothered me. Just more moves to play with. Also, creating them as separate fighters doesn’t really save any time other than potential time balancing. If you wanted both characters anyways, that’s not really a downside for me.

 

[Will]

I do!

They're 2x/3x as much work to play, for no actual advantage.

Pokémon Trainer used to be top tier in competitive because of the numerous advantages they had per Pokemon what are you talking about?

Being a hater is fine. That comment is just wrong.

 

[Louie G.]

I understand the hangup with Zelda / Sheik and even Pokemon Trainer, but Pyra / Mythra are about as classical stance character as you can get in Smash. Lot of their moves are the same with different stats and effects, just with new specials. I’m sure I won’t convince Darth but nevertheless.

Bottom line is it’s Smash taking on a very standard fighting game archetype. Breaking that one up defeats the whole point.

 

[Sucumbio]

why not just call them Link and Wild Link respectively? If you’re classic link is the one we have now why rename him?

OMG WHO CARES

Best case IMHO Next game gets 5 Zelda characters

Link
Zelda
Ganondorf
?
?
_____________
Pool of options:

Sheik
Toon Link
Young Link
Skull Kid
Midna
Impa
????

 

[fogbadge]

OMG WHO CARES

me apparently

 

[Will]

OMG WHO CARES

Even the mods are sick of the semantics. goddamn

 

[SharkLord]

Alright I'll just call them Link 1 and Link 2 with the same inflection as Thing 1 and Thing 2. I won't explain which Link is Link 1 and which Link is Link 2, figure it out yourselves

 

[RileyXY1]

I think Pokémon Trainer will be gone anyways next game. They're too much work for one fighter, and they only came back because of Everyone is Here. I think that Charizard will be back on his own.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Unless the next game is on hardware equal to or weaker than the 3DS, Trainer is coming back as is.

The 3DS is literally the only reason he wasn't in For. And it was because the hardware literally couldn't pull it off not "it's toow muwch wowrk... "
Or should we expect the Ice Climbers to be scrapped too because "they were too much work and only came back for Everyone Is Here"?

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I think Pokémon Trainer will be gone anyways next game. They're too much work for one fighter, and they only came back because of Everyone is Here. I think that Charizard will be back on his own.

I mean considering Smash 3DS was also the game that split up Zelda/Sheik and Samus/ZSS, and they stayed split while Charizard gained the other two back, I also wouldn't be surprised if Charizard being solo in 4 was partially (or mostly) due to the 3DS limitations that kept the Ice Climbers out.

It's entirely possible he will be on his own again, but I dunno, it doesn't feel like that's what the team strictly wants to do if it can be helped.

 

[Will]

I think Pokémon Trainer will be gone anyways next game. They're too much work for one fighter, and they only came back because of Everyone is Here. I think that Charizard will be back on his own.

It’s basic trivia that Icies and Pokemon Trainer were cut due to the hardware limitations of the 3DS.

 

[RileyXY1]

Unless the next game is on hardware equal to or weaker than the 3DS, Trainer is coming back as is.

The 3DS is literally the only reason he wasn't in For.
Or should we expect the Ice Climbers to be scrapped too because "they were too much work and only came back for Everyone Is Here"?

They're literally three times the work of a standard fighter. That's resources that can go to newcomers instead when there's no Everyone is Here this time.

 

[ninjahmos]

I know I'm a bit late on the subject of voice actors, and I realize this is a bit of a pipe dream, but I'd love to hear Nolan North and Troy Baker in Smash somehow.

 

[Sucumbio]

me apparently

lol obv but whyyyyy it's a distinction without a difference you don't see that? They could be named chicken and dumplings it still wouldn't effect the point which is now furiously defending itself from further obfuscation because of questions that fit this category (banal) and oft come from you. No offense.

 

[Will]

They're literally three times the work of a standard fighter. That's resources that can go to newcomers instead when there's no Everyone is Here this time.

How is it three times the work when they’ve already been coded and programmed into the Smash engine? You’re acting as if they remake vets from scratch in every new Smash, and you gotta know that’s not true.

 

[Gengar84]

I know I'm a bit late on the subject of voice actors, and I realize this is a bit of a pipe dream, but I'd love to hear Nolan North and Troy Baker in Smash somehow.

There’s a chance we could get Troy if they go with Yuri Lowell as the Tales rep. They replaced him in the modern port with Grant George but I think they said that was only due to scheduling conflicts at the time. I can’t remember off the top of my head who Nolan North voices besides Nathan Drake. Not sure if Sony would want a character in Smash but that would be cool.

OMG WHO CARES

Best case IMHO Next game gets 5 Zelda characters

Link
Zelda
Ganondorf
?
?
_____________
Pool of options:

Sheik
Toon Link
Young Link
Skull Kid
Midna
Impa
????

I don’t want to lose Sheik but that’s a tough one. I guess I could accept losing her if we got Hyrule Warriors Impa in return with a fully unique moveset. Skull Kid, Midna, Mipha, or Urbosa are my next picks. There’s so many cool Zelda characters that would be fun to play in Smash that it’s a shame we only have the Triforce trio and variants of them.

Oops, didn’t mean to double post. Sorry about that.

 

[RileyXY1]

How is it three times the work when they’ve already been coded and programmed into the Smash engine? You’re acting as if they remake vets from scratch in every new Smash, and you gotta know that’s not true.

This game might be made entirely from scratch. It might pretty much be the other option Sakurai considered when developing Ultimate. I'm also not assuming that every veteran is gonna be kept forever because they've already been programmed into the engine.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

They're literally three times the work of a standard fighter. That's resources that can go to newcomers instead when there's no Everyone is Here this time.

Look. I'm going to level with you.

I've seen time after time not only here on my old account, but browsing Serebii dozens upon dozens of blanket statements from you about how something won't happen because of not well-thought out reasoning.
And more times than not, it ends up being the exact opposite of what you say to the point it's even become a meme on Serebii.

How many times is it going to take before you stop making such definitive statements?


They're not going to just arbitrarily scrap the entire Trainer concept for the sake of "making room" for more characters.

 

[dezeray112]

There’s a chance we could get Troy if they go with Yuri Lowell as the Tales rep. They replaced him in the modern port with Grant George but I think they said that was only due to scheduling conflicts at the time. I can’t remember off the top of my head who Nolan North voices besides Nathan Drake. Not sure if Sony would want a character in Smash but that would be cool.

The other thing that I know about Nolan North is that he also voiced Deadpool within the Marvel video games.

 

[Sucumbio]

I don’t want to lose Sheik but that’s a tough one. I guess I could accept losing her if we got Hyrule Warriors Impa in return with a fully unique moveset. Skull Kid, Midna, Mipha, or Urbosa are my next picks. There’s so many cool Zelda characters that would be fun to play in Smash that it’s a shame we only have the Triforce trio and variants of them.

Oops, didn’t mean to double post. Sorry about that.

I'm down if we keep Sheik as base and add 5th new character and then bring back a smol link for dlc but then that's 6 and if we're to assume any downsizing either it's 5 or Zelda has to be considered safe which idk about

 

[Will]

This game might be made entirely from scratch. It might pretty much be the other option Sakurai considered when developing Ultimate.

The gameplay was already tweaked from 4, and he started the project immediately after 4 ended. The option was clear from the beginning, and there are plenty of articles you could find discussing the development of the game.

Unless you can find something that substantiates your claims, I’m just gonna say no.

I'm also not assuming that every veteran is gonna be kept forever because they've already been programmed into the engine.

That has nothing to do with your original point being “Pokémon Trainer is too much work and wastes too many newcomer slots”.

You can also use veteran assets without using said veteran— case in point the transition of .

But that point has nothing to do with the fact Pokémon Trainer isn’t too much work and isn’t a difficult process to create to the point it hinders adding newcomers to the game. If we were truly redoing everyone from scratch, Pokémon Trainer’s biggest tweak might only be which Pokemon they use.

And more times than not, it ends up being the exact opposite of what you say to the point it's even become a meme on Serebii.

I wanna see. Where can I see?

 

[ninjahmos]

I know I'm a bit late on the subject of voice actors, and I realize this is a bit of a pipe dream, but I'd love to hear Nolan North and Troy Baker in Smash somehow.

Also, if Lloyd gets in, they should get Scott Menville.

I'd also love to hear Dee Bradley Baker in Smash, and I feel like his best bet for that would be Viewtiful Joe.

 

[fogbadge]

They're literally three times the work of a standard fighter. That's resources that can go to newcomers instead when there's no Everyone is Here this time.

not really as veterans tend to be based off of their older appearances. what ever work done on PT for the next game will be using ultimate as a base

lol obv but whyyyyy it's a distinction without a difference you don't see that? They could be named chicken and dumplings it still wouldn't effect the point which is now furiously defending itself from further obfuscation because of questions that fit this category (banal) and oft come from you. No offense.

pardon me for not seeing the logic in giving an old character a new name

 

[Guynamednelson]

Unless you can find something that substantiates your claims

You know what Riley's source always is

Spoiler: Swears

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Shiek's playstyle is important to Smash and distinct, to the point she's played a lot even as her competitive viability has shifted, I think it'd be a shame if she was gone. If nothing else, if she's cut, she should definitely get someone who replaces that playstyle. Impa could obviously be a direct fit, but doesn't have to be someone from the same franchise, off the top of my head I could see someone like possibly Mio or a Pokemon like Quaxly fitting a similar combo-heavy rushdown playstyle with little startup and end lag and zone breaking specials in exchange for low endurance and damage.

 

[dream1ng]

This game might be made entirely from scratch. It might pretty much be the other option Sakurai considered when developing Ultimate. I'm also not assuming that every veteran is gonna be kept forever because they've already been programmed into the engine.

Even if they start from the ground up, which they may do, veterans are still going to be less work than newcomers. So trainer might be three times the work as a standard vet, but vets to newcomers isn't apples to apples.

 

[Guynamednelson]

So trainer might be three times the work as a standard vet

I'd actually say it's 4 times the work, not just because the trainer has to be modeled and animated but also because they need to have a place for him to stand in the background of every stage, including every stop a touring stage makes

Still, the movesets are already made so it's not too bad. But it's not free either.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Also even if Pokemon Trainer does take more work, which I doubt considering their veteran status and the ability to reuse the models (which they should unless Charizard gets like slight tweaks to better match SV's slight design update, and even then that'd probably be a tweak and not a fully redone model), this is something that would likely be sorted out during the planning phase.

Like if Pokemon Trainer is in the plan from the start, then it's not gonna give any potential newcomer more or less to work with, I wouldn't think.

 

[dream1ng]

I'd actually say it's 4 times the work, not just because the trainer has to be modeled and animated but also because they need to have a place for him to stand in the background of every stage, including every stop a touring stage makes

Still, the movesets are already made so it's not too bad. But it's not free either.

It may be more than three times the work given, even though the three characters have one less move, there is probably a higher degree of balancing needed for the character.

That said, modelling and animating and finding a place for the trainer on the stage isn't the equivalent work of a whole character. It wouldn't even be close. I mean it's basically a background character with a little more work.

 

[Guynamednelson]

That said, modelling and animating and finding a place for the trainer on the stage isn't the equivalent work of a whole character

You're right, I just think Red or whatever you wanna say the trainer is officially named is enough to make it at least slightly more than 3 fighters' worth of resources.