Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[ScrubReborn]

-MoM. If Master Hand/Crazy Hand are the personification of a Child playing with his figurines, then there must be a Mother that checks in to make sure the Figurines aren't taking over. Master Mom.

-DaD. And same thing here. Master Dad.

This is ****ing genius. I love this. Almost sounds like **** Sakurai would do. These two sound perfect for secret optional bosses, and they should be the hardest fights in the series too, enough to make the normal final boss look like a ant. And of course they should be hard to even find in the first place, ideally with minimal hints to their existence. Maybe tie the chance to fight them to 100% completetion.

 

[ninjahmos]

-I want all the Old Bosses to come back, so Rayquaza, Duon, Tabuu, Master core, etc

Don't forget Galleom

Oh, and speaking of character-sized bosses... why not bring back Metal Mario?

 

[fogbadge]

well if we're doing bosses again

Calamity Ganon (first phase)
Fury Bowser (one of his best transformations)
Death Egg Robo
World of Nothing (xemnas dragon)
Eternamax Eternatus
Ancient Sirehound
Mother Brain (super metroid incarnation)
Void Termina

 

[ninjahmos]

What if they brought back the Fighting Polygon, Wire Frame and/or Alloy Team for the next Smash game?

 

[SpecterFlower]

It's odd to think of Daroach on a villain equivalent to Marx, mostly just being a greedy treasure hunter akin to Wario and less so any serious antagonist. The Squeaks pretty much make up with Kirby at the end of the game, a more definitive on-screen redemption than Magolor gets in his original game. He even plays kind of a supporting role in Mass Attack and gives you advice how to proceed. But regardless, it's kind of splitting hairs and Kirby is not a series that offers itself very efficiently to a black or white label of good guy and bad guy.

Also, 02 is not the biggest villain in the series. We can speculate on their associations with other bosses or Dark Matter, but 02 isn't even definitively confirmed to be the same guy as Zero from KDL3, and if it was, only appears prominently in two games. The general threat of "Dark Matter" is consistent enough to appear in three games, by proxy making it the most consistent antagonistic force, but there isn't really any canonical word on whether the Swordsman, Zero and 02 are the same being or how closely related they are. So on paper making 02 the boss isn't all that much more productive than it being Marx.

technically dark matter si related to villains in 4 other games, plus a villain in a minigame in mass attack.

but yeah, kirby villains are mostly one and dones becuase death is canon in kirby.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That actually would be the best way of replacing the codecs and guidances. At least everyone (who can speak) would have interactions instead of just a few characters.

That said, it would need an Adventure Mode that's actually friendly to that sort of thing.

Or even just take the full "support" route from Fire Emblem and have it so that having two characters in the same match enough unlocks those vignettes.

I probably wouldn't do it for regular matches so as not to ruin their flow, but it's definitely an option for something like a Melee style Adventure mode or Ultimate style Classic Mode.

Let me just say this about the idea of "references = good design". While it's nice to have references to make it true to the character in a way, it would be nice for them to mix it up and implement their own moves to fit Smash itself.

They do still do this. Even ignoring normals, there's stuff like Alolan Whip, the Rebellion Gague, and most of Byleth's special moves, which are made up attacks with their respective weapons rather than any specific combat art they have.

It's just that newer characters go harder with their source material, which makes sense since they're 50+ characters down the line. Fighting Games with big casts or long running series tend to get real kooky characters later in life, which isn't inherently a bad thing. In fact, there's a bit of a clamoring for a lot of characters from Melee and before to get designs in a similar vein to the newer ones.

Balance is probably the key here.

EDIT:

I really don't see the point in that.

If you go to all the trouble to make and entire model and moveset for a person-sized character...why wouldn't you just make them a Fighter instead?

Well if it's not a boss version of a fighter, then they wouldn't have a full move set, and if they were, then all it'd take would be some property changes so you can fight an absolutely busted version of that character.

 

[SPEN18]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "average bubble" first party. However, if you mean that people are not more attached to the average third-party vet than the average first-party vet that has a significant chance of being cut, then I'd respectfully disagree with you.

When we're talking first-party vets that could get cut, we're not talking about the likes of Ness and Little Mac here. Those characters are high enough up the totem poll that they're in no real risk of going anywhere in my mind. Historically, cuts have primarily been characters that are derivative of others on the roster, supporting characters from franchises with a lot of reps or franchises that have gone inactive, and characters cut for technical reasons. I don't think the last factor is in play when we're working with hardware that is more powerful than the 3DS, so that really leaves the former two categories.

The bubble is somewhat of a moving target depending on how big you think the roster would be, but I'd say roughly anyone in that middle tier, outside the top 30 or so who are practically guaranteed to return, but not necessarily the Pichu tier. I don't think Mac or Ness will be cut either, but I do think characters from those smaller 1-rep franchises and the "secondary popularity picks" from the bigger franchises, like say Rosalina, Mewtwo, Ike, even K. Rool, etc., would be the types of characters you would start to risk losing if you tried to bring back all or almost all third parties.
If you start with a roster of say 60-65 characters and subtract say a dozen spots for newcomers (possibly even a bit more) and 12-16 spots for third party vets, then that leaves you with possibly only 35-40 spots for first party vets (obviously numbers are all approximate here). In the worst case, dangerously close to 30 (and even 40 is really putting a squeeze on things). At that point, yeah, characters like Ness or Little Mac could very easily be on the bubble or even just outright below the line for inclusion. I feel like it's way too few without compromising on either newcomers or third party vets in some significant way. And after Ult's base game and with the number of first party franchises due for a newcomer (or possibly more), I don't think skimping on newcomers is viable. So, yeah, just by the numbers it's really not even worth it for them to bring back all third parties, even if you could hypothetically get them all.

In the abstract, I don't think there would be any discussion regarding whether or not the third-parties will return if Nintendo owned them. If Nintendo owned Final Fantasy, then there would be no humming and hawing about whether or not Cloud or Sephiroth were in the game. They'd be shoe-ins.

But the whole point is that Nintendo doesn't own them. So they're handled differently.

I think a lot of this disagreement is founded on different visions of what the next Smash will be. Judging back the fact that you think there will be 30+ cuts for the base roster from Ultimate, my guess is you think the next Smash will be more similar to Smash for Wii U than Ultimate. There will be less characters and the scale of the crossover will be scaled back, but vets will get more attention and there will be more supporting content. I, admittedly, can't envision the series going that way after how successful Ultimate was. I truly believe that the base roster will be slightly larger than Ultimate's starting roster and third parties will continue to play an increased role relative to previous entries, but a lot of content will be reused and we're not going to see much single-player stuff.

Yes, a lot of this is that I wouldn't recommend expecting a roster of 70+ at base. Given all the circumstances that went into base Ult's roster even happening as-is in the first place.

I wouldn't quite say I think it will be like Smash for Wii U; I'd more say that I expect something that is the natural evolution of Smash for Wii U (albeit one that is not completely amnesiac to the fact that Ult happened). I do think some people have been kidding themselves in pinning Ult as this massive change in direction for the series; it's a product of its circumstance much more so than that.

 

[ScrubReborn]

What if they brought back the Fighting Polygon, Wire Frame and/or Alloy Team for the next Smash game?

Y'know I was really hoping they woulda done that in Ultimate. Let you choose from any of the past Multi-Man Smash enemies to beat up, to compliment every character returning. Alas it wasn't meant to be I guess.

Anyways, next game's most likely just gonna have a new team, they prolly only reused the Mii Team in Ultimate for convinience.

 

[Gorgonzales]

What if they brought back the Fighting Polygon, Wire Frame and/or Alloy Team for the next Smash game?

I just want a new fighting team at this point. The Miis were underwhelming in Smash 4 and even moreso once they got reused for Ultimate. I greatly prefer the original designs of the weirdos from those previous games, but I don't outright want them back; I want a new set of characters in their stead.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

"Derivatives are low priority" is not really as accurate as being made here. It's a lot more complicated than that.

• Dr. Mario was the same priority as Mewtwo in the first place. Both were intended, but neither could make it into Brawl due to time limits and Sonic being available late into the project. Including Roy, all three were never meant to miss out on a Smash game apparently. Roy may not have made it into 4, originally, though. But Dr. Mario was intended for all releases after Melee. Keep that in mind.
• Pichu and Young Link were the only two actual cuts outright going into Brawl that was hard intended. Young Link was replaced outright by Toon Link, who used many of his assets to make work. It's also notable that the entire cast was redesigned to match their new GameCube game designs, so it's a lot unique than just a replacement. Effectively, the Zelda cast all got the same kind of redesign. The only difference was that Toon Link's proportions were not identical to Young Link's, so it can't be a straight-out "design update".
  • Pichu may have been intended to be replaced by Plusle & Minun. This one however isn't clear, unlike Dr. Mario and Mewtwo, respectively.
• Sakurai was literally intending to add clones of Zelda and Sheik in toon form. That should say something about derivatives. He clearly finds them very nice to have. No, it wasn't "Tetra planned" either. It would've said that file. That also said, it likely would've became Tetra for ease of creation, but she can't take from anyone's moveset either. Only Toon Zelda was legit easier to make, but didn't have a Young Zelda to come from.
• Lucas' cut is notable, but only if you realize that "the franchise is finished/not getting anything" was the actual reason. Wolf was in the same position. Had Star Fox Zero not been delayed that much, the canine would've been DLC or even base depending how soon it was coming out. It ultimately was his downfall. Lucas came back immediately, though. Lucas was also twice going to replace Ness(in Melee, but Mother 64 fell through, and during Brawl, but Mother 3 never went stateside). So no, derivatives aren't really "obvious cuts" either.
• Every Echo is really damn safe as long as the original exists. Like, seriously, they're too easy to make.
• Pokemon Trainer having two cuts, along with Ice Climbers, and splitting off Transformation characters were... pretty clearly a 3DS issue. On the other hand? They could've split up PT into three characters. But they didn't. Being a derivative isn't too notable during 4 either for cuts. Especially when among the cuts, unique characters happened more often. Derivatives really aren't cut that often, and even then, it's solely Young Link and Pichu that were not originally meant to return at the time. Every other one was originally planned in but cut for other reasons(and as I noted in 4, the unique characters were cut even more).
• Remember Jigglypuff? Almost got cut more than once. Why is it staying? Cause it's easy as hell to make. This is why being a derivative is an advantage, not a problem.

Overall, it's very misleading to look at derivatives as clear cuts. They actually aren't. There's always context. Especially when only two among the franchise were not meant to originally return till Ultimate(with maybe one unclear if it was replaced), the other two solely not returning originally due to their franchises not allowing for an easy character, and the difference between unique and clone cuts are barely there in terms of numbers.

To clarify a bit;

• Dr. Mario and Roy were never meant to leave Brawl.
• We were going to have at least two more clones in Brawl(Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik), possibly another remake of another character depending on what Pra_Mai was. Dixie may have also been similar to Diddy.
• 4's cuts were more on unique characters, with the only two derivative cuts due to "the franchise isn't getting a game anytime soon", making the other characters who are the first in the series, or respectively, easier to make, high priority. Wolf is also kind of inbetween, bordering more on unique than clone, which says something too. Being easier to make did actually save characters more often.
• Again, Echoes are very safe as long as the original is there. Easy clones are just as safe too(Dr. Mario, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, etc). The more they border on unique but use a clear base is the more they can be difficult to return. But also, we know that "games not having more coming/being finished" is a deciding factor. This is what got Lucas and Wolf cut moreso than being a derivative. Lucas being one got him back really fast as DLC since unlike Wolf, he uses far more easy assets.

A good way to say it is "there is no actual specific way derivatives work in terms of priority, because context and the story behind their cuts are all over the place". Trying to group them all together just doesn't work due to our overall knowledge. If we didn't know about the Forbidden 7, it'd be a far more reasonable statement. But with that knowledge? Nope.

 

[ninjahmos]

I do kinda like the idea of having character-sized bosses as unlockable/playable characters.

By the way, I think either Smithy or Culex (Super Mario RPG) would be a pretty cool (though unlikely) boss.

 

[fogbadge]

I do kinda like the idea of having character-sized bosses as unlockable/playable characters.

By the way, I think either Smithy or Culex (Super Mario RPG) would be a pretty cool (though unlikely) boss.

but then they’re just characters, there’s nothing separating them from any of the other characters on the roster

in fact you could argue we have that in ultimate

 

[ninjahmos]

I think a Touhou boss for Smash would be pretty cool. They could use Bad Apple as the music.

 

[Perkilator]

Re: Fighting team
I think repurposing the models from Dragon King: The Fighting Game would make for a pretty nifty fighting team.

 

[ninjahmos]

Re: Fighting team
I think repurposing the models from Dragon King: The Fighting Game would make for a pretty nifty fighting team.
View attachment 388314

Only if they give them new theme music by implementing the Dragon King drum beat, and the stock grunts and the Howie Scream.

 

[toonito]

On the subject of bosses, Dhoulmagus from DQ8 would make such a cool boss.
What new bosses would you guys want?

Personally I think every character should have their canon boss at the end of their Classic Mode

Geese from Fatal Fury would be cool for Terry's Classic Mode

An idea i had for Bison would be if you beat classic mode from 0.0-9.8 difficulty you fight Bison. If you beat classic mode on 9.9 right before your fight with Bison starts Akuma throws him off the stage and you fight Akuma instead as a nod to his debut in Street Fighter 2 Turbo.

 

[cashregister9]

I'm gonna be real, I do have a huge soft spot for the fighting mii team, something about their inclusion in Smash 4 got me supremely hyped for the game. I genuinely cannot tell you why

100% though, Wireframes, Polygons and Alloys were way more interesting gamplay wise. Maybe combine the 4 groups into one big horde and have that be the fighting team?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Now something I do want to say about the Zelda Roster that I have not fully touched upon;

• Link becoming fully TOTK is obviously not going to happen. He is clearly meant to represent the normal Zelda franchise but still takes notes every time from the latest games(to a degree. A game can be skipped, as shown with SS).
• Sheik is not going away. Brawl was her sole chance to be cut. She also was shown off first and is our second Zelda character overall. This also makes sense, as she was far more battle capable than Zelda too(which made it easier to make a clear moveset out of). Impa, as great as she is, is a completely different kind of character now and even then, she barely managed to get a cameo in Smash. She absolutely could get in, but it won't be in place of Sheik.
• Zelda is always going to be a princess-style character. She won't be changing to BOTW/TOTK because that Zelda is intentionally a different style. Besides more variety, Zelda was only going to be a character design from a game that sticks with her Princess design. Hence us getting ALTTP/ALBW. That said, maybe a Hilda alt or Echo could come along? Who knows. Too late now, probably, though.
• Young Link of course is a mixed bag. Respectively, his current setup makes him completely different from Link and Toon Link. However, he's still the least popular of the three. It's unlikely we'll have 3 Links, too.
• Ganondorf has little chance to change to TOTK if it can't keep his core moveset mostly unchanged. The sword is pretty different, though not terribly so. OOT/TP are the only two Ganondorfs that overall were ever workable with the current moveset. His build being similar to Falcon still matters, as it's a lot faster to fully create a character when you especially don't have previous data that can immediately come back. This is also why he continues to be a derivative. It's just easier to make. While TOTK's design is lightly possible(if the builds are close enough), Toon Ganondorf is not possible unless he's a fully new character. And unlike Toon Link, his bodyshape is pretty different, so they can't take much from the current Ganondorf either.
• Toon Link is pretty likely to come back, unless they want to push the non-Toon style. That's kind of it anyway to really say in his regard.

Now for newcomers;

The team has a pretty clear focus on keeping it to the Triforce Trio. So before I start on that, do note anyone else is not remotely likely beyond another form of Link, Ganondorf/Ganon, or Zelda(well, Sheik moreso, technically speaking).

• Impa: She has a fair chance. While HW is pretty off the table as an outright design(but could take elements maybe?), she's specifically going to use one of her older designs. SS, OOT, Oracle games, BOTW, they're all possible. She's a very popular choice right now.
• Rauru: I wouldn't put too much stock into him right now. While cool, frankly, he's Link's arm. There's not much stopping them from giving Link a new arm and giving him a few more skills to represent Rauru in that way.
• TOTK Ganondorf: The only chance he'd be an actual unique character, anyway. That said, I wouldn't put much stock into it either.
• The Champions: They are treated as secondary characters, especially the BOTW ones who are a hard group. They were Spirits only for a reason. The second set have a loose chance, at least. As well as other unique options.
• Tingle: Probably not, but he's definitely someone they want to show up otherwise. He'll appear in some way even if not playable.
• Skull Kid: He's gotten more over the years, but like others, his importance is usually barely related to one game, not the franchise as a whole.
• Midna: See Skull Kid for the same point. She's however more notable in terms of options, but even Nintendo called the amiibo "Wolf Link". Midna is clearly not treated as that important as she should be.
• Demise: This actually could be plausible as some kind of Ganondorf clone(or even play more like what we want out of Ganondorf). But only because he's actually just that important.
• Ghirahim: Yeah, his time has come. He's cool, though.
• Toon Ganondorf: Yeah, he's really not on the table. What's the point? We have little chance to get another Ganon as is.
• Toon Zelda: Her only important thing is... the Phantom Knight. So it's possible to entirely remake her, but I doubt it now.
• Toon Sheik: Ironically they have a design thanks to Scribblenauts, but unless they want a sudden clone of Zelda and Sheik, she has zero chance.
• Hilda: The only possible Echo right now, and still not happening. Game's over with.

Did I miss any majorly notable wants right now? Sidon I thought was a TOTK Champion, but I easily could be wrong. I still put him in the category of "good luck with that". ...Which is everyone on the newcomer list, to be frank. And sadly so.

It is pessimistic, but there's really no reason to believe we're getting more than minor updates to anyone but Link at this point in terms of "new game design". Zelda doesn't work. Ganondorf mayyyyyy work. The rest don't. And any newcomer is very unlikely. As sad as it is.

 

[MasterCheef]

Nintendo Switch 2 Announcement Imminent Finally?! Or Not?

Nintendo Switch 2 Announcement Imminent Finally?! Or Not?

Is it finally time for the official announcement for Nintendo Switch 2? Could Nintendo's next fiscal earning release and shareholders meeting bring with it s...

www.youtube.com

 

[superprincess]

• Link becoming fully TOTK is obviously not going to happen. He is clearly meant to represent the normal Zelda franchise but still takes notes every time from the latest games(to a degree. A game can be skipped, as shown with SS).
• Sheik is not going away. Brawl was her sole chance to be cut. She also was shown off first and is our second Zelda character overall. This also makes sense, as she was far more battle capable than Zelda too(which made it easier to make a clear moveset out of). Impa, as great as she is, is a completely different kind of character now and even then, she barely managed to get a cameo in Smash. She absolutely could get in, but it won't be in place of Sheik.
• Zelda is always going to be a princess-style character. She won't be changing to BOTW/TOTK because that Zelda is intentionally a different style. Besides more variety, Zelda was only going to be a character design from a game that sticks with her Princess design. Hence us getting ALTTP/ALBW. That said, maybe a Hilda alt or Echo could come along? Who knows. Too late now, probably, though.
• Young Link of course is a mixed bag. Respectively, his current setup makes him completely different from Link and Toon Link. However, he's still the least popular of the three. It's unlikely we'll have 3 Links, too.
• Ganondorf has little chance to change to TOTK if it can't keep his core moveset mostly unchanged. The sword is pretty different, though not terribly so. OOT/TP are the only two Ganondorfs that overall were ever workable with the current moveset. His build being similar to Falcon still matters, as it's a lot faster to fully create a character when you especially don't have previous data that can immediately come back. This is also why he continues to be a derivative. It's just easier to make. While TOTK's design is lightly possible(if the builds are close enough), Toon Ganondorf is not possible unless he's a fully new character. And unlike Toon Link, his bodyshape is pretty different, so they can't take much from the current Ganondorf either.
• Toon Link is pretty likely to come back, unless they want to push the non-Toon style. That's kind of it anyway to really say in his regard.

• No matter how much you believe someone is or isn't happening, you should probably refrain from using words such as "obviously". Link could very well have his TOTK design and retain the same moveset, save for the bombs that would go back to their timed variant and be modeled after the Timed Bomb of the Zonai Devices from TOTK. I could also see the Archaic Tunic as an alt since he wears that in artwork.
• I agree on Sheik not going away and Impa probably not replacing Sheik. Sheik's basically a Smash OC at this point not unlike Captain Falcon, so...
• Zelda is very princessy and regal in TOTK. Not in her casual outfit, but her dress from the cutscenes. She's also shown to use some generic light magic in BOTW cutscenes so it could work. Just change up her attitude like they did before.
• Young Link is only here because of EiH, let's be real. He's probably the #1 likeliest character to be cut.
• Let's not kid ourselves, TOTK Ganondorf does have a high possibility of happening. Sakurai has ignored canon Ganondorf's fighting style before to incorporate him into Smash. He made the floating mage OOT Dorf and swordfighter TP Dorf both into close range brawlers. He can easily fit TOTK Ganondorf into the Falcondorf base, replacing his purple stuff with gloom and switching out his sword.
• Toon Link's probably sticking around. He's weirdly not very hated for a clone, and is very visually distinct.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Young Link is only here because of EiH, let's be real. He's probably the #1 likeliest character to be cut.
Toon Link's probably sticking around. He's weirdly not very hated for a clone, and is very visually distinct.

I don't think it's going to be that simple. Yes, TL is supposed to be YL's replacement, but YL's been the more popular of the two from a gameplay perspective over SSBU's lifespan.

And I don't think it's a Melee nostalgia thing, seeing as how everyone was fine with TL being YL's replacement except maybe the most diehard YL mains.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

• No matter how much you believe someone is or isn't happening, you should probably refrain from using words such as "obviously". Link could very well have his TOTK design and retain the same moveset, save for the bombs that would go back to their timed variant and be modeled after the Timed Bomb of the Zonai Devices from TOTK. I could also see the Archaic Tunic as an alt since he wears that in artwork.
• I agree on Sheik not going away and Impa probably not replacing Sheik. Sheik's basically a Smash OC at this point not unlike Captain Falcon, so...
• Zelda is very princessy and regal in TOTK. Not in her casual outfit, but her dress from the cutscenes. She's also shown to use some generic light magic in BOTW cutscenes so it could work. Just change up her attitude like they did before.
• Young Link is only here because of EiH, let's be real. He's probably the #1 likeliest character to be cut.
• Let's not kid ourselves, TOTK Ganondorf does have a high possibility of happening. Sakurai has ignored canon Ganondorf's fighting style before to incorporate him into Smash. He made the floating mage OOT Dorf and swordfighter TP Dorf both into close range brawlers. He can easily fit TOTK Ganondorf into the Falcondorf base, replacing his purple stuff with gloom and switching out his sword.
• Toon Link's probably sticking around. He's weirdly not very hated for a clone, and is very visually distinct.

• No, he's most definitely not going "Full TOTK" at all. He has never gone full anything. That actually requires to fully change the moveset. That's what it means. Him getting minor changes to help be similar to TOTK's changes is logical.
• Sheik really is best not to call her that. Giga Bowser is the only true OC we got of any remote playability. Mr. Game & Watch is named like an OC, but is still purely from his own games(also, there is no Mr. in the games, so the gender is specific to Smash). It's misleading. Especially after Mii Fighters now are official Smash OC's too, despite that making even less sense than Giga Bowser as well(Giga Bowser originated in Smash, while Mii Fighters are still clearly regular Miis to begin with. That said, all three are Smash OC's, unlike some of the others who feel like ones nowadays).
• She's still blatantly a tomboy as well. It's great they added more, but it's the same one from both games. Zelda is not a tomboy design in Smash either. Nor is supposed to be. No, she does not fit the bill that well. She might take notes from it, but TOTK is not a regular Princess by any means. Which is ironic too, since it's the first time since the TV Show and CD-i games that Zelda acted like a tomboy and wore a similar outfit. Not that it's really inspired by it directly so much as "this is a general adventurer character". She wore stuff and did stuff like that in BOTW too. That didn't matter, since her core is clearly an adventurer in both games. And it makes sense. It fits more with her new story, as she's nothing like previous Zeldas beyond being strong with magic(technically).
• Young Link is hardly here just because of that. He's a very popular veteran no matter how you slice it. People were very disappointed in Link playing way too differently alone and flocked to Young Link directly because he actually plays like Link should in the first place. Same applies to Pichu. They're very popular characters. Young Link also was added to HW due to his immense popularity along with MM being popular. The real reason he's here ultimately is because he was easy to create and made sense when there was more to represent. Also, he was a major ballot character like all the other veterans. That's what even made EiH possible. So his votes led directly to him coming back, which is what the reason for EiH even existed(the ballot). it's really weird how it worked out in that regard, though.
• He really doesn't. You super overestimate him. He's a completely different character and needs to fit the same bodyshape to even have a chance. His weapon is also way too different, and he actually fights far more like with his sword like in TP too within Smash. Which is why the sword even worked out. It's not a canon sword, but the way he uses it is very accurate to his characterization. Besides that, Sakurai made it clear he wants to represent multiple parts of the franchise. You can't do that by just throwing people into TOTK designs. The chances any will change beyond Link is honestly super tiny. And that's because it completely goes against his plans. If Sakurai isn't at the helm? Sure, that's a fair chance. But it's fully dependent on that.
• Toon Link will only be cut, again, for what I said. If they really want to push Young Link instead. Which I don't think is likely either. You're repeating the same thing essentially.

I don't think it's going to be that simple. Yes, TL is supposed to be YL's replacement, but YL's been the more popular of the two from a gameplay perspective over SSBU's lifespan.

And I don't think it's a Melee nostalgia thing, seeing as how everyone was fine with TL being YL's replacement except maybe the most diehard YL mains.

Young Link was highly voted on the ballot along with every veteran. That's why he actually came back. Everyone is Here was due to the ballot justifying it.

It's silly to blame things on EiH when it's the other way around, overall. This is why we got a lot of stuff to begin with. Both Belmonts, Ridley, King K. Rool. Dark Samus and Chrom were not made clear if it was ballot-based or not, though. Just that people wanted them were dropped. Daisy is the only one that's easy to guess due to popularity being the biggest thing. Echoes too.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

but then they’re just characters, there’s nothing separating them from any of the other characters on the roster

in fact you could argue we have that in ultimate

I think they were talking about making boss versions of characters, like Shin Akuma.

She's still blatantly a tomboy as well. It's great they added more, but it's the same one from both games. Zelda is not a tomboy design in Smash either. Nor is supposed to be. No, she does not fit the bill that well. She might take notes from it, but TOTK is not a regular Princess by any means. Which is ironic too, since it's the first time since the TV Show and CD-i games that Zelda acted like a tomboy and wore a similar outfit. Not that it's really inspired by it directly so much as "this is a general adventurer character". She wore stuff and did stuff like that in BOTW too. That didn't matter, since her core is clearly an adventurer in both games. And it makes sense. It fits more with her new story, as she's nothing like previous Zeldas beyond being strong with magic(technically).

This is all just flavoring though. You can convey that personality through her animations. And honestly, on the surface, she's pretty similar to how she was in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess; A quiet, sombre woman who fights for her kingdom in the only way she can. The main problem is the lack of a dress, as a lot of her animations were made with it in mind, so you'd have to do a lot of reanimating to make that work.

IMO, it's a question of "will they" rather than "can they".

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This is all just flavoring though. You can convey that personality through her animations. And honestly, on the surface, she's pretty similar to how she was in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess; A quiet, sombre woman who fights for her kingdom in the only way she can. The main problem is the lack of a dress, as a lot of her animations were made with it in mind, so you'd have to do a lot of reanimating to make that work.

IMO, it's a question of "will they" rather than "can they".

That's not "flavor". That's her core characterization. It's the exact reason why she had no chance using the BOTW design. Nothing changed.

Characterization matters more than just a design alone. Also, see what I hard said about "Sakurai intends to represent more than one game." We already got TOTK with Link. Zelda is supposed to represent ALTTP/ALBW. That's a heavy part of why she was changed that way. That didn't magically change. TP Zelda was barely characterized to begin with and was just a quick change in Smash due to being the only one with the same core bodyshape. It's a completely different situation from Ultimate's design philosophy. Comparing her to the fleshed out BOTW and TOTK character is really not fair. They're a different kettle of fish. Only one actually has a lot of story, after all. Midna was the only Princess in TP with actual major characterization. Zelda might've been meant to have more, but that's only because we don't know if Sheik was meant to come back or if she was solely created for Smash in the TP style. The Hyrule Historia is vague in both languages on that.

Honestly, TOTK is popular as hell, but Link is the only one actually designed to transfer over to it properly without going entirely against the intention behind the cast's overall designs. And the idea of even getting a new Zelda character is pretty easy to dismiss. We know who was planned. More clones, and it was an OC and Toon Zelda specifically. There's a pretty clear indication the whole point behind the design process continues to be about variety. It's why two more Toon characters would even be considered, so you had both GameCube games fully represented(not that they would be easy to make, but I spoke on that earlier).

----------

Characterization is not a flavor thing in Smash. That's how they're supposed to act, and every character kept their same personality. The flavor things that changed were minor design factors by representing other games. Zelda, despite being in her TP form in 4, still acted like the OOT design. In both cases, she was somewhat stoic, but still rather proactive. She had non-stoic moments too in her various taunts. This carried over to Ultimate. They never once changed her personality. She was never adventurous either in Smash. It's exactly why BOTW was not a plausible option. It's a completely different character. It's not just changing her taunts alone. You aren't using her dress. That's not BOTW Zelda people know. You're using her core adventurer design because it's the truly iconic one. She acts different, animates different, and even has different skills overall. Variety was the other reason, I said a bit before; ALTTP/ALBW were the most logical change to Zelda, since it fit her OOT personality the best. TP was the outlier design, but only because it was slightly odd. However, with barely any personality in said game, they didn't have to really change anything to make it work. It's also notable her leadership skills in the opening of Adventure Mode is something pretty much only from TP, so they kept that part of her too.

Anyway, as she's a completely different character in BOTW and TOTK, there's no way, even if they gave her a skin based upon it(which admittedly has a better chance than a full change), she would change that much. If you look at others, Ganondorf became slightly more mean compared to OOT, but it was just basically less of an air of politeness, while still keeping his murderous personality. It's really just that TP gave him better facial expressions to show exactly what his personality from OOT truly was by that point. Smash also somewhat had it due to more options for animations. I do think they might give Ganondorf a skin similar to TOTK due to some facial animations matching up super well. But beyond that? Pretty unlikely to take much from it.

A clone of Ganondorf based upon TOTK, though? While pretty unlikely, this might work the best in keeping how different they really are(Ganondorf, contrary to popular belief, is not super evil in the N64 and GameCube games. He's outright noted to directly have some weirdness surrounded by Demise's influence, but also was capable of good things, as shown in WW, where he legitimately had good thoughts. TOTK Ganondorf is a true monster who chose to be evil 100% and is willing to go to any length, even destroy his own personality to win. Ganondorf in OOT and WW has some tragic factors. TP Ganondorf was pretty much a case where he had kind of a barely there personality, but even moreso, played second fiddle to Zant's overall characterization. He's not fleshed out, and also from a different timeline. Being Dorf's questionable agency, and the fact he turns into Beast Ganon heavily resembling the being of hatred from BOTW alone, it's now made more clear he no longer in that case cared about anything but revenge. Which made it more obvious something was wrong in Four Swords Adventure when he just automatically became evil with absolutely zero evil influences, showing Demise had him in his hard grip that time. When he didn't(in WW's ending), Ganondorf outright gave a big middle finger to Demise's influence and went out on his own merits, being free and to be himself. It's also why it's treated as the best one since TOTK where he's an actual truly notable character(but still 100% different from the other Ganondorf portrayals).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That's not "flavor". That's her core characterization. It's the exact reason why she had no chance using the BOTW design. Nothing changed.

Characterization matters more than just a design alone.

I know it matters, but Zelda's current move set fits this characterization as well. There are reasons why they wouldn't pick her, and to your credit, her characterization is the reason Sakurai gave, but these decisions are multi-faceted, and all of this is more art than science. Characterization (as well as series tone IIRC) was also a reason why Villager was initially vetoed, but he found a way to make it work. For Zelda, he didn't think she'd be at home in a fighting game, but we've seen her in the combat heavy Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity, and she worked just fine. Seeing something like that could have changed his mind.

Or maybe it didn't. I dunno, but my opinion is, that she could absolutely work if they were willing to put the work into animation changes to show off the differing personality.

Also, see what I hard said about "Sakurai intends to represent more than one game." We already got TOTK with Link. Zelda is supposed to represent ALTTP/ALBW. That's a heavy part of why she was changed that way. That didn't magically change.

I didn't address this initially since I didn't have any problems with the reasoning/didn't have anything to say about it, but now that I'm thinking about it, I don't see it as a death knell either. Design philosophies shift over time, and Super Smash Bros. Ulitmate is case in point in that regard; All previous games pull from all the same game for Link, Zelda, Sheik, and Ganondorf. They could keep doing what they're doing, or they could go back to what they were doing before. They're not really beholden to either choice.

And the idea of even getting a new Zelda character is pretty easy to dismiss. We know who was planned. More clones, and it was an OC and Toon Zelda specifically. There's a pretty clear indication the whole point behind the design process continues to be about variety. It's why two more Toon characters would even be considered, so you had both GameCube games fully represented(not that they would be easy to make, but I spoke on that earlier).

With Toon Link on the roster I'm not sure how much variety Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik would have granted since they were likely going to also be representing The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker. From what I know of the character, this version of Zelda was also pretty different in terms of characterization, but if Toon Sheik was being created just to allow her to swap I don't think her move set was going to be all that different from Zelda's, especially since Tetra was right there.

I don't think there's enough evidence to really know why Toon Zelda/Toon Sheik was a planned fighter, but my guess was that it was for funsies like with Dr. Mario, and a floaty version of those two would certainly have been...something.

 

[ninjahmos]

Speaking of characterization… why is the Fire Emblem characterization/representation in Smash (apparently) so bad?

I mean, I feel like Fire Emblem fans have complained about Lucina being an Echo of Marth and Chrom being an Echo of Roy.

That, and a lot of their voice lines seem to sound out of character for them and they all say "I won't lose".

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Speaking of characterization… why is the Fire Emblem characterization in Smash (apparently) so bad?

It's hard to say. Sakurai's interpretation, odd dub versions. Like, Smash has many characters clearly different. Mario is pretty much way closer to Paper Mario's personality(which is more angry and battle ready. This wasn't that present in Super Mario RPG, but it's heavily there just in Paper Mario. That said, the Mario & Luigi games are different too, where Mario is much more bubbly, but still had a determination streak, which is very close to his old Super Mario RPG design. It does help that Paper Mario is confirmed in-universe as a different person from Mario, so having somewhat different personalities fits much better than it used to, where it was purely inconsistent at best).

It's just a weird way it's done. We have Ganondorf who is actually really accurate(with his OOT self being a bit less evil-like in the way he doesn't give as much grumpiness, but in his TP design he's just blatantly more evil. Ultimate somewhat fuses them though). Zelda never matched any games very well besides a bit of OOT and ALTTP/ALBW(she's very bubbly in general but has a serious nature when needed), with her only thing from TP being her knowing how to be a leader, only showing up in Adventure Mode once.

On the other hand, Peach was always the same way in the usual games, including Paper Mario and Super Mario RPG, being super bubbly and dainty. Like, she makes Zelda, even at her most bubbly, look quite serious. XD

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Speaking of characterization… why is the Fire Emblem characterization/representation in Smash (apparently) so bad?

I mean, I feel like Fire Emblem fans have complained about Lucina being an Echo of Marth and Chrom being an Echo of Roy.

That, and a lot of their voice lines seem to sound out of character for them and they all say "I won't lose".

One reason is that RPG characters tend to be very deep, and Smash can only show so much. (Ex. Shulk reflects his personality in regular battles, but not in Heart to Hearts, or cutscenes where he's on a war path).

Chrom and Lucina make sense as Echo Fighters in a vaccuum, but not as much together since they're supposed to fight the same.

 

[Ivander]

Speaking of characterization… why is the Fire Emblem characterization/representation in Smash (apparently) so bad?

I mean, I feel like Fire Emblem fans have complained about Lucina being an Echo of Marth and Chrom being an Echo of Roy.

That, and a lot of their voice lines seem to sound out of character for them and they all say "I won't lose".

Only Lucina sounds somewhat out of character in terms of English voice lines with her victory lines against Marth and Ike, whereas JP version, she's more in character. The other characters don't sound any different than they do against an enemy in their game. And that's mostly what we got for the most part, aside from personal interpretations with screenshots, videos and etc. Basically, they aren't exactly out of character. Just that they didn't get to show more character beyond what was given.

And Lucina and Chrom get complaints about their Echo status because they don't exactly share any moves with Marth and Roy in their home game and that Lucina's fighting style is supposed to be based on Chrom's fighting style since she's his daughter and he taught her how to fight in her past.

• In Chrom's case, Sakurai stated that when he initially planned Chrom for Smash 4, he couldn't figure how to make Chrom more unique than just being a middle ground between Marth and Ike, hence why he ultimately went with Robin instead of Chrom for Smash 4. Roy became that middle ground when he came back for Smash 4 and became more a semi-clone of Marth with a bit of stuff from Ike, so it was decided that Chrom would be an Echo of Roy when Chrom placed decently high on the Ballot.
• Because Robin was chosen to be the de-facto Fire Emblem Awakening rep, Lucina was originally going to be a character costume for Marth, although because of differences in terms of idle poses, taunts and whatnot, she became an Echo for Marth that took away Marth's tipper gimmick instead. Not to mention that in Fire Emblem Awakening, the DLC version of Marth fought the same as Lucina did.
  It should be noted that character costumes never got any of their own Idle poses, taunts, victory animations, etc, until Byleth came out. Byleth is the only exception as his Male and Female versions have a separate Up-Taunt, a different Idle pose and 2 different Victory animations from each other. What this potentially means for future Character Costumes in future Smash Bros games, we'll have to wait and see later.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Though it's also worth noting that Byleth's costumes do not change the hurtbox at all(Daisy's do, but they're barely different).

So we could get some really need aesthetic costumes, but as of now, they won't have even the barest of difference in actual hurtboxes.

Which is why Daisy's design is really poor, since while she feels great in other ways(good personality, etc.), it feels like they really didn't try hard enough to just add... a tiny bit more. Dark Samus is really a good option for the minimum too, since she has a different element in more than one attack. Just be like that. Richter needs very little to be at that level. If you can make Peach's customs work with Daisy but function in a balanced way, you're golden there too. Maybe some of Samus' customs for Dark Samus? Lucina and Chrom, like Ken, are more than good enough. Albeit, Ken was always an outlier.

 

[Arcanir]

I don't think it's going to be that simple. Yes, TL is supposed to be YL's replacement, but YL's been the more popular of the two from a gameplay perspective over SSBU's lifespan.

And I don't think it's a Melee nostalgia thing, seeing as how everyone was fine with TL being YL's replacement except maybe the most diehard YL mains.

If we're talking competitively, then it should be noted Toon Link is more popular in Japan so that's not exclusively in YL's favor. That said, competitive is only a fraction of Ultimate's player base and the only ones who would know for certain which one is played more ob a broader scale would be the development team with access to that data.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Well the simple answer would be...

do both

Having character sized bosses would add more variety, and then you can unlock them later by beating them

If they're playable, then how is that a Boss? That's just a Vs. battle.

You're basically describing the Sephiroth Challenge. Which in no way made Sephiroth a Boss.

I assume if there were Human size Bosses, they'd just be suped up versions of Assist Trophy characters,

The Bosses in Smash notably have complete Smash movesets. If you hack the game to play their debug versions, their moves even map to regular players controls.

Dr. Wily (the same machine as in 7. Get ready to tear your hair out again!)

Wliy Machine 7 sucks. All the coolest Wily Machines fly.

M. Bison would also be a pretty cool boss fighter.

Fixed.

On the subject of bosses, Dhoulmagus from DQ8 would make such a cool boss.

If DQ was going to get a Boss, it should be Estark.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If we're talking competitively, then it should be noted Toon Link is more popular in Japan so that's not exclusively in YL's favor. That said, competitive is only a fraction of Ultimate's player base and the only ones who would know for certain which one is played more ob a broader scale would be the development team with access to that data.

I think it might be more that for some, Young Link is basically the normal version of Link from previous games, so some flocked to him. That kind of popularity. Not unlike how some prefer Dr. Mario over Mario for the classic gameplay.

But yeah, competitive is a whole nother thing indeed.

The Bosses in Smash notably have complete Smash movesets. If you hack the game to play their debug versions, their moves even map to regular players controls.

Depends the game. That's true in some, but others had different controls. Melee had the D-Pad and face buttons instead. Smash 64 and Ultimate at least stuck with that, and is even the original of the Side B control, as Master Hand had a unique move for it(instead of it making it like a Smash B like with Link. Though I don't think anyone else could take advantage of it, though?).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The Bosses in Smash notably have complete Smash movesets. If you hack the game to play their debug versions, their moves even map to regular players controls.

I'm really not sure why this continues to be a possible, but since they're not designed with being playable in mind and don't have fully fleshed out move sets (like, playing them would feel like turning on SSF1 mode in SSF2) I don't think that would make them comparable to a regular playable character regardless of their size.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I'm really not sure why this continues to be a possible

I assume it just makes it easier for the devs to test out things with them.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I assume it just makes it easier for the devs to test out things with them.

I think it was confirmed that too. I forget where.

I remember playing Master Hand in Smash 64. It was really fun~

 

[cashregister9]

If they're playable, then how is that a Boss? That's just a Vs. battle.

You're basically describing the Sephiroth Challenge. Which in no way made Sephiroth a Boss.

Sometimes all a boss needs to be a boss is some extra set dressing and a difficulty increase.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Give the next Smash game it's own Vs. Saxton Hale mode and have a mode where one player plays as one of the giant bosses while the other players play regular characters on one team to try to take them down.

/s

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Give the next Smash game it's own Vs. Saxton Hale mode and have a mode where one player plays as one of the giant bosses while the other players play regular characters on one team to try to take them down.

/s

They could've done that with 3DS and Wii U, since in both cases, you had a touch screen to control moves. Albeit, 3DS was... probably less plausible. XD

 

[cashregister9]

Give the next Smash game it's own Vs. Saxton Hale mode and have a mode where one player plays as one of the giant bosses while the other players play regular characters on one team to try to take them down.

/s

This but unironically