Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They'll obviously use some of the old data, even parts of the old engine perhaps, but yeah, it's going to have to be much more new to really justify it being a big seller for the next system. It's much harder to sell on the roster alone when the last one was massive, so they need to do a bit more with gameplay as well.

It's still going to be a weird one to see, due to how much smaller the base roster will be thanks to how difficult it was to even get everyone back. That said, regardless of cuts, there's just a ton that are in safe positions. Any Echo is safe if the original is in(Ken is a funny one due to being the only one to be really different, but there's no way in hell he's getting cut either. It's going to be both or neither. And Ryu nor MegaMan is going away. Pac-Man and Sonic are quite safe too. Simon/Richter are a pair regardless, but just like Snake, they aren't a clear "definitely coming back"). But yeah, we have 5 definite Third Parties coming back. I doubt Bayonetta had a chance to be cut either. How many could make it to base is another thing; Steve might be someone they don't want to negotiate till DLC would be a thing, but only because he requires a significant amount of work. Banjo & Kazooie on the other hand are in a better spot. Terry is probably a new base character this time around. Cloud? Maybe.

The rest seems like they could go either way otherwise.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Steve might be someone they don't want to negotiate till DLC would be a thing, but only because he requires a significant amount of work.

If you're talking about the block mechanic, Steve is actually someone you'd want in the base roster since you can build each stage (and hopefully, each character) with it in mind rather than retroactively altering every single stage in the game. You also have a lot more time to fix the numerous buggy interactions that the mechanic can cause.

I'm honestly shocked something like this was DLC.

 

[Quillion]

Realistically what are the chances the next game is build from the ground up?

I hope it isn't. Not to make it a full-on port or anything, but Smash really doesn't need new character assets when the camera is so zoomed out.

I honestly think Smash Ultimate's character assets will be good 'til the end of time.

 

[Momotsuki]

I feel like making a character DLC two games in a row would seriously ruffle some feathers. Even if you can justify it from a development/logistical perspective, which I'm sure you could in many cases. People are just going to intuitively find that icky.

I honestly think Smash Ultimate's character assets will be good 'til the end of time.

Definitely, especially seeing as it stands to reason the models in Ultimate are significant downgrades from the models they have in-house and presumably use for the trailer CGI. That is to say that on a more powerful system, they could just use those models once again, but not downgrade them quite as much.

 

[SpecterFlower]

My stance is I hope they don't waste a newcomer slot on one.

Smash felt like a crossover game every time a new Ultimate trailer launched.

The story of so many characters...

"They sure are authentic to their original game!
...their original game doesn't work in Smash."

mega man not having a job singlehandidly makes him feel atrocious to play.

i think theres a difference with referencing and translating moves into smash (Banjo kazooie, villager, sora)

and just copying the character as much as you can into smash.

and a lot of characters fall victim to the latter (mega man, belmonts, min min and bayonetta for example)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If you're talking about the block mechanic, Steve is actually someone you'd want in the base roster since you can build each stage (and hopefully, each character) with it in mind rather than retroactively altering every single stage in the game. You also have a lot more time to fix the numerous buggy interactions that the mechanic can cause.

I'm honestly shocked something like this was DLC.

He literally wasn't able to be secured till DLC was already decided upon existing. It took 5 years. It was that or next game, period.

But good point too. He just might be a bigger hit as DLC, but that's probably not a good enough reason. Money does matter, but still.

 

[ninjahmos]

Let's face it; whether the next Smash game is a port or a reboot… people are gonna be upset.

And I'm sure that's an understatement.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

mega man not having a job singlehandidly makes him feel atrocious to play.

i think theres a difference with referencing and translating moves into smash (Banjo kazooie, villager, sora)

and just copying the character as much as you can into smash.

and a lot of characters fall victim to the latter (mega man, belmonts, min min and bayonetta for example)

IMO Megaman is lots of fun once you get used to the way he handles. Dtilt and aerials become your get-off-me moves, and you want to keep your opponent at a certain distance, not too close, not too far.

But I want to point out that if you go and compare them with the games, not many of his moves actually work the same, it's basically just the specials. Most everything else has been pretty liberally adapted to build this very odd playstyle where he has the most projectiles in the game but he usually needs to be up close in order to take a stock.
Then of course, he can click or not click. In my opinion he's one of the best cases of "feels straight-up lifted from his own games even though he isn't" along with the Belmonts and Banjo-Kazooie.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

MegaMan's moveset more resembles Marvel VS Capcom, which is also very different from his own games.

And also isn't that great for Smash in itself. He's a cool character, and the concept is nice, but it leads to "not enough power, too much variable options". Fox actually was kind of like this, but actually didn't suffer enough by having more than enough power and not too loaded on variable abilities.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Let's face it; whether the next Smash game is a port or a reboot… people are gonna be upset.

And I'm sure that's an understatement.

I'm fine if they push back the reveal 2 more years to spare us from the flood of asinine social media arguments that'll ensue and immature people making fun of each other for their mains being cut

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

IMO Megaman is lots of fun once you get used to the way he handles. Dtilt and aerials become your get-off-me moves, and you want to keep your opponent at a certain distance, not too close, not too far.

But I want to point out that if you go and compare them with the games, not many of his moves actually work the same, it's basically just the specials. Most everything else has been pretty liberally adapted to build this very odd playstyle where he has the most projectiles in the game but he usually needs to be up close in order to take a stock.
Then of course, he can click or not click. In my opinion he's one of the best cases of "feels straight-up lifted from his own games even though he isn't" along with the Belmonts and Banjo-Kazooie.

Looking at how Mega Man handles in action, it's absolutely beautiful, especially with how Leaf Shield interacts with Metal Blade, allowing you to threaten approaches with a hitbox all around you without actually committing to the laggy throw if you can pick up or throw the item instead.

It's just...spacing with his neutral air man. His mid range design is actually pretty well communicated, and you instinctively want to do retreating and advancing aerial buster shots, but since they're his neutral aerial, it's hard not to get his Slash Claw or Flame Sword.

I still have a few issues with his design, for example, his slide not being a neutral tool against zoning is kinda annoying. I imagine they didn't do that because projectiles tend not to be low-profilable, and Mega Man's animation doesn't actually low profile anything, but still. If I had my way, the move would be replaced with Charge Kick, and be projectile invincible. I'd also like to see him able to charge his buster while moving about (Atomic Fire could fill the hole left in the moveset without changing much). You could nerf the knockback on the charged buster shots so you'd still have a reason to use forward smash, but having it be a more niche tool that lets you tack on a bit more damage sometimes would be neat.

Most importantly, fix his presentation. Mega Man has a personality, but you'd never know it here.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Mega Man's still fun to play as for me, though personally the Ultimate variation can never compare to how great the custom move version could be in Smash 4.

 

[Perkilator]

Mega Man's still fun to play as for me, though personally the Ultimate variation can never compare to how great the custom move version could be in Smash 4.

On the topic of custom moves, I decided to do a “rethinking” kind of document.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

On the topic of custom moves, I decided to do a “rethinking” kind of document.

Better custom moves is a fun prospect, but it doesn't say what any of these do, so I don't really know what to make of it.

Except for the removal of the almighty Spinphony. That is punishable with death.

 

[Perkilator]

Better custom moves is a fun prospect, but it doesn't say what any of these do, so I don't really know what to make of it.

I was moreso focused on simply adding the moves before superficially describing what they do. I'll add descriptions as soon as I can.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Custom moves have to be the feature I've cared the least about in the history of Smash.

 

[Gorgonzales]

This thought just came to me but I'd love to see bosses specifically tailored to be fought by specific characters. The boss's attacks synergize with the player's movement/attack options, there's specific interactions that can happen between the two, etcetera.

Admittedly I can't really think of any examples, I just mainly got inspired by this video and how you'd definitely get hit by a lot more of these attacks if you weren't specifically playing as Kirby.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Custom moves have to be the feature I've cared the least about in the history of Smash.

They're a great idea, but not a good one for Smash specifically since it introduces scope creep exponentially tied to the already present roster scope creep. This lead to some of the most boring and broken moves we've ever seen.


And then they decided that to earn the right to use them, we needed to either sit there and break boxes or punch bombs for several hours on end, or play Palutena.

 

[Garteam]

In terms of sales of the base game, each individual third party past the first handful of them is a diminishing return relative to how much it costs licensing-wise to add the third party, unless possibly it's fitting into some grander marketing scheme like EiH. They'll likely think it sufficient to just get a few new third parties and a good chunk of the biggest old ones like Sonic or whoever, some names to slap on the back of the box and help to headline the cast alongside Mario, Pikachu, and co., and potentially promise a few others back as DLC.
Tbh, just numbers-wise and regardless of any licensing, I just don't see how they could fit all the third party vets in. Trying to keep all of them, pretty much any way you slice it, forces you to cut that much deeper into the existing first party roster. It would definitely come at a great cost of other fan favorites and a litany of 1-rep franchises that get their biggest chance to shine in Smash. And then, the potential licensing hiccups and certain third parties potentially preferring DLC payouts only make it more difficult.
It's beyond bold to compare cutting Snake or Kazuya to cutting Villager or Samus. Nintendo has a vested interest into the latter series and can put them in Smash completely free of extra cost or negotiation. Those are not just mascots but their own mascots whose games appeal most specifically to the people on their own platform that they're trying to sell Smash (and those other games) to. I mean they literally cut Snake in Smash 4 already and, while plenty of people were disappointed and wanted him back, even voted on the Ballot to get him back, in the grand scheme of things it was a blip on the radar as far as the overall well-being of the series goes. I just don't see how cutting Kazuya, for example, would be any worse for people than cutting whichever other first party bubble character you might pick out.

You're thinking about this too much in terms of the abstract notion of third parties and not enough about the actual identity of the characters in the game. It's not that there's a quota that needs to be met to satisfy fans' expectations and, so long as you satisfy that quota with someone, everything is hunky dory. People are inherently attached to the characters and franchises already in Smash.

Saying "it'll be fine to cut Cloud, Joker, Terry, and Kazuya so long as we add Arle and Bomberman because fans of those characters just want third parties generally" doesn't check out for the same reason saying "it'll be fine to cut Sheik, Ike, R.O.B, and Greninja so long as we add Rauru and Oatchi because fans of those characters just want Nintendo characters generally". It fails to look past the intrinsic meaning and significance those characters individually have.

I don't really see how bringing back every third party would cut that deeply into Nintendo's representation. We're for sure getting Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu, and Bayonetta regardless of how many third parties are in the game, so I don't think it's fair to say they're knocking any Nintendo vets off of the roster. That leaves 11 additional third parties that would have to be accommodated, which really isn't that egregious. Assuming we get about 20 cuts in total (as most of the thread thinks), we'd still be keeping two-thirds of the current Nintendo roster. Assuming that about ten of those cuts are happening even in a world where third parties make up most of the cuts, you're still only saving about 10 Nintendo characters that would otherwise be in the roster. This isn't a matter of whether to sacrifice Hero and Banjo to keep first parties like Zelda or Meta Knight, it's a matter of whether to sacrifice Hero and Banjo to keep a handful of first parties that are otherwise low-priority, like Palutena and Min Min.

Cutting Kazuya and Snake is equivalent to cutting Villager and Samus because Tekken, Metal Gear, Animal Crossing, and Metroid are massively popular games with a ton of fans and legacy behind them. I'm not going to deny Nintendo has a greater vested interest in Villager and Samus' inclusion but Nintendo's interest isn't indicative of how much impact a character's inclusion has had on the fanbase. Nintendo doesn't have any immediate financial interest in continuing to include Ness and Mr. Game & Watch beyond being passive NSO advertisements but heads would still roll if either got cut.

Smash for Wii U/3DS was able to cut away with cutting Snake because his exclusion was a one-off anomaly in how Smash has generally treated third parties that a lot were able to rationalize as a side-effect of Konami and Kojima's rapidly deteriorating relationship. If cutting third-party veterans became the norm instead of the exception, the negative reception to those cuts is going to increase in intensity over time, especially if tempered by the perception that those cuts are happening because Nintendo wants to push characters they are more directly tied to.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I maintain that with enough time and care (and either no unlocking system or a better one) custom moves could fit Smash fantastically, but there's a general sentiment about certain features and modes in the series being a waste of resources that take away from working on a strong one player mode or fighters so I'm not surprised it's a minority of fans clamoring for their return.

 

[Quillion]

mega man not having a job singlehandidly makes him feel atrocious to play.

i think theres a difference with referencing and translating moves into smash (Banjo kazooie, villager, sora)

and just copying the character as much as you can into smash.

and a lot of characters fall victim to the latter (mega man, belmonts, min min and bayonetta for example)

I just wanna say that I'm so glad that, even in this thread, the idea of "references = good moveset design" is finally dying. Now we're in a consensus that characters like Mega Man and Min Min just suck in game feel because of their references.

They're a great idea, but not a good one for Smash specifically since it introduces scope creep exponentially tied to the already present roster scope creep. This lead to some of the most boring and broken moves we've ever seen.


And then they decided that to earn the right to use them, we needed to either sit there and break boxes or punch bombs for several hours on end, or play Palutena.

I maintain that with enough time and care (and either no unlocking system or a better one) custom moves could fit Smash fantastically, but there's a general sentiment about certain features and modes in the series being a waste of resources that take away from working on a strong one player mode or fighters so I'm not surprised it's a minority of fans clamoring for their return.

I feel like if we need an actual "custom moveset" option in Smash, it'll need to be a fully-tailored "complete change" one similar to Omegas in Ultra Street Fighter 4. Like you just can't change one move; it has to be a whole set.

 

[Garteam]

Realistically what are the chances the next game is build from the ground up?

Completely built from the ground up? 0%. Sakurai's design philosophy is all about making development as efficient as possible through strong planning to maximize the amount of content in the game, with reusing assets from previous entries being a major pillar of this philosophy. Assets will be reused, much to the chagrin of those who would effectively nuke the roster under the hope that the radiation would mutate Ganondorf and Sonic into having better movesets.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

This thought just came to me but I'd love to see bosses specifically tailored to be fought by specific characters. The boss's attacks synergize with the player's movement/attack options, there's specific interactions that can happen between the two, etcetera.

Admittedly I can't really think of any examples, I just mainly got inspired by this video and how you'd definitely get hit by a lot more of these attacks if you weren't specifically playing as Kirby.

Man I wish Super Smash Bros. Ultimate had a boss rush mode (that wasn't just Sephiroth's Classic Mode).

 

[Quillion]

After playing Smash CMC+, I think Ultimate Classic Mode and Melee Classic Mode should be two separate things.

Make the latter THE "classic mode" with fully random opponents and Master Hand at the end, and then make the former like an "arcade mode" with a few cutscenes here and there and more specific bosses.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

After playing Smash CMC+, I think Ultimate Classic Mode and Melee Classic Mode should be two separate things.

Make the latter THE "classic mode" with fully random opponents and Master Hand at the end, and then make the former like an "arcade mode" with a few cutscenes here and there and more specific bosses.

You thinkin' like a Playstation All Stars: Battle Royale style arcade mode with a beginning, rival battle, and ending cutscene for each character?

 

[ScrubReborn]

Man I wish Super Smash Bros. Ultimate had a boss rush mode (that wasn't just Sephiroth's Classic Mode).

I almost feel like Sakurai just legit forgot to include it. Such an odd absence otherwise

 

[Quillion]

You thinkin' like a Playstation All Stars: Battle Royale style arcade mode with a beginning, rival battle, and ending cutscene for each character?

Rival Battle, probably not due to the silent nature of most big-name Nintendo protagonists.

...though, if they can incorporate wordless cutscenes into those fights, then sure.

But as for beginning and ending cutscenes, yeah. I wouldn't even mind brief intro cutscenes for some of the other fights either.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I feel like making a character DLC two games in a row would seriously ruffle some feathers. Even if you can justify it from a development/logistical perspective, which I'm sure you could in many cases. People are just going to intuitively find that icky.

Especially when the eshops close come the end of a consoles lifespan and those characters become lost forever. That's weirdly why i was glad "Everyone is here" was a thing at first, because we got to keep Ryu, Cloud and Bayonetta.

Here's hoping Joker is a base game character next time, because i know Sora wont be.

 

[Quillion]

Especially when the eshops close come the end of a consoles lifespan and those characters become lost forever. That's weirdly why i was glad "Everyone is here" was a thing at first, because we got to keep Ryu, Cloud and Bayonetta.

Honestly, this is why I think Nintendo and/or Sora Ltd. needs to do a better job of distributing old Smash games.

I think each game is different enough that a new game doesn't automatically make an old one redundant.

Here's hoping Joker is a base game character next time

Because Joker's Phantom Thieves have a high chance of replacing the codecs and Palutena's Guidances (depending on whether we get Persona 6 in that time)?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Because Joker's Phantom Thieves have a high chance of replacing the codecs and Palutena's Guidances (depending on whether we get Persona 6 in that time)?

The kind of interaction i want to see will probably never happen but i want to see a codec or a Palutena's guidance where Futaba hacks into the feed to taunt the Metal gear or Kid Icarus characters.

She's both a computer hacker and has supernatural mental powers she can probably do both of these things.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Ya know, thinking about it, I feel like World of Light would have been greatly bolstered by including "support conversations". Just little visual novel style cutscenes between characters where they talk about what's going on, heartfelt conversations between characters that would relate, and really, really silly interactions.

Some quick ideas:

1. Shulk and Lucina talking about the future.
2. Pit or Isabelle coming to Link with a problem, figuring out the solution, thanking him, and leaving, all without letting him say a single word.
3. Bowser and King Dedede being pissed about getting possessed again.
4. Corrin and Mega Man lamenting about having to fight, and then Inkling and Pokémon Trainer come in being like "wow that was a great match. Battling sure is fun!". EDIT: Ryu and Ken could deliver this punchline as well.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Ya know, thinking about it, I feel like World of Light would have been greatly bolstered by including "support conversations". Just little visual novel style cutscenes between characters where they talk about what's going on, heartfelt conversations between characters that would relate, and really, really silly interactions.

Some quick ideas:

1. Shulk and Lucina talking about the future.
2. Pit or Isabelle coming to Link with a problem, figuring out the solution, thanking him, and leaving, all without letting him say a single word.
3. Bowser and King Dedede being pissed about getting possessed again.
4. Corrin and Mega Man lamenting about having to fight, and then Inkling and Pokémon Trainer come in being like "wow that was a great match. Battling sure is fun!".

Simon: So, you've battled vampires yourself huh?
Snake: ...You could say that.

 

[Quillion]

Ya know, thinking about it, I feel like World of Light would have been greatly bolstered by including "support conversations". Just little visual novel style cutscenes between characters where they talk about what's going on, heartfelt conversations between characters that would relate, and really, really silly interactions.

Some quick ideas:

1. Shulk and Lucina talking about the future.
2. Pit or Isabelle coming to Link with a problem, figuring out the solution, thanking him, and leaving, all without letting him say a single word.
3. Bowser and King Dedede being pissed about getting possessed again.
4. Corrin and Mega Man lamenting about having to fight, and then Inkling and Pokémon Trainer come in being like "wow that was a great match. Battling sure is fun!". EDIT: Ryu and Ken could deliver this punchline as well.

That actually would be the best way of replacing the codecs and guidances. At least everyone (who can speak) would have interactions instead of just a few characters.

That said, it would need an Adventure Mode that's actually friendly to that sort of thing.

Or even just take the full "support" route from Fire Emblem and have it so that having two characters in the same match enough unlocks those vignettes.

 

[Noipoi]

Ya know, thinking about it, I feel like World of Light would have been greatly bolstered by including "support conversations". Just little visual novel style cutscenes between characters where they talk about what's going on, heartfelt conversations between characters that would relate, and really, really silly interactions.

Some quick ideas:

1. Shulk and Lucina talking about the future.
2. Pit or Isabelle coming to Link with a problem, figuring out the solution, thanking him, and leaving, all without letting him say a single word.
3. Bowser and King Dedede being pissed about getting possessed again.
4. Corrin and Mega Man lamenting about having to fight, and then Inkling and Pokémon Trainer come in being like "wow that was a great match. Battling sure is fun!". EDIT: Ryu and Ken could deliver this punchline as well.

This is the route the next game’s story mode should take

 

[Deleted member]

That actually would be the best way of replacing the codecs and guidances. At least everyone (who can speak) would have interactions instead of just a few characters.

That said, it would need an Adventure Mode that's actually friendly to that sort of thing.

Or even just take the full "support" route from Fire Emblem and have it so that having two characters in the same match enough unlocks those vignettes.

This is the route the next game’s story mode should take

This just remembered about the Project x Zone games, the second one was pretty decent even though i had issues with it like treatement of the female characters and the innuendo jokes which soured the experiencie to me.
I wonder if theyll ever make a Project x Zone 3.

 

[SpecterFlower]

Thinking about t it I really doubt Kirby will ever get a villain in smash, none of the current characters are, and the next 2 most popular characters (magalor and bandana dee) are also not villains.

maybe add dark meta knight as an echo idk

 

[Hadokeyblade]

This just remembered about the Project x Zone games, the second one was pretty decent even though i had issues with it like treatement of the female characters and the innuendo jokes which soured the experiencie to me.
I wonder if theyll ever make a Project x Zone 3.

If it makes you feel better Project X Zone's parent series SRW is still ongoing. But that's mostly anime characters crossing over not videogame ones.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Thinking about t it I really doubt Kirby will ever get a villain in smash, none of the current characters are

Dedede steals food. He's a monster.

 

[ninjahmos]

Let me just say this about the idea of "references = good design". While it's nice to have references to make it true to the character in a way, it would be nice for them to mix it up and implement their own moves to fit Smash itself. Although, this may or may not have to be the case if it were a traditional fighting game character.

Also, the next Smash game definitely needs a Boss Rush mode. In fact, I talked about boss battles awhile back.

 

[Louie G.]

Thinking about t it I really doubt Kirby will ever get a villain in smash, none of the current characters are, and the next 2 most popular characters (magalor and bandana dee) are also not villains.

The way Kirby as a series operates doesn't leave much room for permanent villains. Unless it's Dark Matter, who is just a being of pure evil and chaos as far as we're aware, and I suppose Nightmare. Most other one-shot villains and recurring characters circa the 2000s are either misunderstood or see redemption arcs throughout the course of the story. Magolor is by all means a villain in the context of his debut game. His roles beyond that are minor but we've been given those small lore tidbits about him redeeming himself, and RTDL Deluxe gave us that little Magolor substory. So the pool is slightly muddled but I don't think it would be unreasonable to consider him a new villain or at least rival character if he were added. The likes of Bowser or Wolf have shifted their alliance here and there too, but their role is otherwise clear. Magolor's one major role in the series sees him as the main antagonist.

Which is to say in general I don't think Kirby will ever see a true "bad guy" character in Smash, but King Dedede and Meta Knight at least fulfill some degree of rival / "recurring boss" role which is more befitting of Kirby as a whole. Kirby is a character who tends to take things on the chin and see the good in others, so it's natural that the series has more of an emphasis on redemption and forgiveness and doesn't linger too long on someone's misdeeds.

But I dunno, if Magolor doesn't count as a Kirby villain then nobody they could practically add does. Except Marx, probably.