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It's "The real PS All-Stars Battle Royale" people joke about it being. I know MGS and FFVII were ported to PC shortly after their PS1 releases, but people mostly associate Snake and Cloud with the PlayStation.
And no, it does not make sense to port a game with over 60 playable Nintendo characters, and a selection of items and a single player campaign that primarily focuses on Nintendo to non-Nintendo systems.
Whoever's subscribed to Source Gaming's YouTube channel, you probably know that they're picking 20 stages for the next Smash tomorrow. So I wanted to ask: what are 20 stages you guys would like to see in the next game? For me:
Flower Kingdom
(Super Mario Bros. Wonder)
Grassland Groove
(Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze)
So wait, how many cuts go you guys predict then? It seems a lot of the time I see Conversations about specific characters getting cut, it seems that there's most of the time Defense on why they won't get cut and that the character "Isn't going anywhere", There's characters with less defense than others, like Plant, Incineroar, and Corrin, but if people are predicting 10-20+ Cuts on the roster, I'd Imagine some of the characters will be shocking to see get cut
I’m thinking 25-35 cuts before accounting for echoes. I think the base roster will be at least the size of For (48 base game barring Lucina, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario), but I’m hesitant about it reaching Ultimate’s base roster size (69 before echoes).
Whoever's subscribed to Source Gaming's YouTube channel, you probably know that they're picking 20 stages for the next Smash tomorrow. So I wanted to ask: what are 20 stages you guys would like to see in the next game? For me:
Flower Kingdom
(Super Mario Bros. Wonder)
Grassland Groove
(Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze)
It's "The real PS All-Stars Battle Royale" people joke about it being. I know MGS and FFVII were ported to PC shortly after their PS1 releases, but people mostly associate Snake and Cloud with the PlayStation.
And no, it does not make sense to port a game with over 60 playable Nintendo characters, and a selection of items and a single player campaign that primarily focuses on Nintendo to non-Nintendo systems.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Smash already has Mario, representing the old Teaches Typing PC games, you have a ponggame.org assist trophy, Google Doodle Pac-Man is in there, Sonic repping Sonic.EXE, etc. Hell, Brawl and Smash 4 even had FNF Tank Guy as an assist. It's easy to see why Smash and PC culture is so closely linked in the eyes of many.
Whoever's subscribed to Source Gaming's YouTube channel, you probably know that they're picking 20 stages for the next Smash tomorrow. So I wanted to ask: what are 20 stages you guys would like to see in the next game?
Overall I'd like more stages from series without playable fighters, but for something specific I feel like Another Dimension is an obvious pick for a stage that's really missing. Could have a great aesthetic from RTTD shifting between all the various different ADs, lean into some of Kirby's more creative visuals.
So wait, how many cuts go you guys predict then? It seems a lot of the time I see Conversations about specific characters getting cut, it seems that there's most of the time Defense on why they won't get cut and that the character "Isn't going anywhere"
Well, obviously some characters are bigger sticking points than others. And with how little information we have right now and how drastically different this game may be approached compared to its predecessors, someone who I think isn’t going anywhere may be an easy cut for someone else.
A lot of our cuts next game will probably be third party. I’d say there’s a fair chance we lose about half of our guest characters. It’s not always a matter of x or y being easy or hard to get, but can also just boil down to new priorities. We’ve never had more than a handful of guests carry over from game to game, and prior to Ultimate the only mainstay was Sonic. So we don’t really know what the “norm” is here, and for all we know we could see quite a few phased out to make room for new faces. Even seemingly easy ones like Kazuya, Snake or Joker are in danger IMO. But I think most participating companies will keep at least a single ambassador.
Outside of that, I suspect priorities will remain about the same as always. The more derivative characters are expendable and some series with less activity or less of a future may shed a character here or there. Pokemon, Mario, Fire Emblem can afford to shed one or two supplemental characters while they’re at it, they’re probably some of the first that eyes will turn to when space is limited. I believe they’ll try to avoid removing first party series from the roster altogether, but perhaps series offering minimal content with less room for expanded representation or growth if the situation is dire.
If we factor all of that in we’re already losing about 20 characters give or take. We may lose more than that, there are always a couple surprise losses that make people especially sad, but I think most of the disappointment this time will be thrust toward third parties from those unprepared for them to be treated as guests that can come and go. Many will likely return through DLC but base roster may be a rude awakening for those who undervalue the Nintendo side of the roster.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Smash already has Mario, representing the old Teaches Typing PC games, you have a ponggame.org assist trophy, Google Doodle Pac-Man is in there, Sonic repping Sonic.EXE, etc. Hell, Brawl and Smash 4 even had FNF Tank Guy as an assist. It's easy to see why Smash and PC culture is so closely linked in the eyes of many.
I can't blame you, I also forgot to mention that Enderman is straight-up playable representation of the iconic Slenderman franchise, so we already have Something Awful rep in Smash, and I'm positive that's an aspect of gaming culture Sakurai specifically had in mind when selecting Enderman as a character, much in the same way Terry represented arcades. I don't see why, say, a GOG release should be off the table with that in mind.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Smash already has Mario, representing the old Teaches Typing PC games, you have a ponggame.org assist trophy, Google Doodle Pac-Man is in there, Sonic repping Sonic.EXE, etc. Hell, Brawl and Smash 4 even had FNF Tank Guy as an assist. It's easy to see why Smash and PC culture is so closely linked in the eyes of many.
I can't blame you, I also forgot to mention that Enderman is straight-up playable representation of the iconic Slenderman franchise, so we already have Something Awful rep in Smash, and I'm positive that's an aspect of gaming culture Sakurai specifically had in mind when selecting Enderman as a character, much in the same way Terry represented arcades. I don't see why, say, a GOG release should be off the table with that in mind.
So wait, how many cuts go you guys predict then? It seems a lot of the time I see Conversations about specific characters getting cut, it seems that there's most of the time Defense on why they won't get cut and that the character "Isn't going anywhere", There's characters with less defense than others, like Plant, Incineroar, and Corrin, but if people are predicting 10-20+ Cuts on the roster, I'd Imagine some of the characters will be shocking to see get cut
Part of it is that socially it's easier to talk up characters' merits than to argue more negatively about a character, and people are more likely to chime in to defend a character they're particularly confident in or invested in.
Part of it, also (and I've said this before), is the following. There's an upper tier of characters that basically no one is going to seriously discuss cutting, like your Marios and Kirbys of the world, and then there is the bottom tier of more expected cuts. But between those two is a very large large middle tier which can be admittedly very difficult to rank, and the final cutoff point is likely to fall somewhere in there. Basically, you have a large number of characters where there is a good argument for them to be back, but also acknowledgment that they might not. So then it comes down to numbers: if you have like a few dozen characters who each have like a 50-80% chance of making it, then statistically a lot of them won't, but the arguments for those characters are still going to skew more towards them making it than not.
As for my own expectations, I've maintained all along that a roster the size of base Smash 4 is the absolute smallest they'd try to sell us, as that's the last time they made a fully ground-up game; I consider that the lower bound. But I don't think the roster will be quite as big as base Ult, so consider that the upper bound. We'll likely get something in between.
Whoever's subscribed to Source Gaming's YouTube channel, you probably know that they're picking 20 stages for the next Smash tomorrow. So I wanted to ask: what are 20 stages you guys would like to see in the next game? For me:
Flower Kingdom
(Super Mario Bros. Wonder)
Grassland Groove
(Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze)
I’ve been thinking about a roster for a first party only ( + bayonetta, it’s in a weird situation)
I just wanna see if people would like this as a first party only roster compared to ultimates using the same number of fighters not like it’s better it definitely isnt.
In general I aimed to represent every era of Nintendo from the game and watch to now
Mario: Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, captain toad, yoshi, king boo, rosalina, bowser junior, paper Mario
Zelda: Link (botw), Zelda (alttp) Ganondorf (WW) Impa (SS), Skull kid (oot and mm), midna (tp) rauru (totk)
Animal Crossing: villager, Isabelle, Tom nook, kk slider
Splatoon: agent 3, Pearl and marina, Mr grizz
Pokemon: red and pikachu, Cynthia and garchomp, Giovanni and mewtwo, Serena and greninja, Steven and metagross, kamui and incenroar, Penny and eevee
Fire emblem: marth, ike, Anna (awakening), edelgard
Xenoblade: Shulk, pythra, Noah and mio, Alvis
Pikmin: olimar, rescue corps, Louie
Kirby: Kirby, king dedede, bandana waddle dee, meta knight, magalor
Donkey Kong Country: Dk, diddy and Dixie , king k rool,
Warioware: wario, Ashley
Metroid: Samus, Ridley , Raven beak
Kid Icarus: pit, palutena
F-Zero: captain falcon
Star fox: fox, wolf, Krystal
Duck hunt : guess who
Game and watch: Mr game & watch
Punch out: little mac
Ring fit: ring fit adventurer
Astral chain: akira Howard
Wii: mii, wii fit trainer
Rythm heaven: tap girl
Style savvy: stylist
Legendary starfy: starfy
Ice climbers: ice climbers
Fossil Fighters: hunter and vivosaur
Bayonetta: bayonetta,
Golden sun: Issac
Chibi robo: chibi robo
Advance wars: Andy
Excitebike: excitbike
FDC: ayumi tachibana
Arms: min min
Pushmo: pushmo
Box boy: Qboy
mother: Ness
Custom robo: robo piloted by hero.
[SPOILER/]
Well, obviously some characters are bigger sticking points than others. And with how little information we have right now and how drastically different this game may be approached compared to its predecessors, someone who I think isn’t going anywhere may be an easy cut for someone else.
A lot of our cuts next game will probably be third party. I’d say there’s a fair chance we lose about half of our guest characters. It’s not always a matter of x or y being easy or hard to get, but can also just boil down to new priorities. We’ve never had more than a handful of guests carry over from game to game, and prior to Ultimate the only mainstay was Sonic. So we don’t really know what the “norm” is here, and for all we know we could see quite a few phased out to make room for new faces. Even seemingly easy ones like Kazuya, Snake or Joker are in danger IMO. But I think most participating companies will keep at least a single ambassador.
Outside of that, I suspect priorities will remain about the same as always. The more derivative characters are expendable and some series with less activity or less of a future may shed a character here or there. Pokemon, Mario, Fire Emblem can afford to shed one or two supplemental characters while they’re at it, they’re probably some of the first that eyes will turn to when space is limited. I believe they’ll try to avoid removing first party series from the roster altogether, but perhaps series offering minimal content with less room for expanded representation or growth if the situation is dire.
If we factor all of that in we’re already losing about 20 characters give or take. We may lose more than that, there are always a couple surprise losses that make people especially sad, but I think most of the disappointment this time will be thrust toward third parties from those unprepared for them to be treated as guests that can come and go. Many will likely return through DLC but base roster may be a rude awakening for those who undervalue the Nintendo side of the roster.
I understand. Giving my personal opinion on this, I kind of hope some of you guys are wrong in the guests making a majority of the cuts because at least for me, they are some of the coolest additions to the game and to see them get cut back, even in the base roster would Suck
That and alot of the most Requested characters are either 3rd Party, or Notable additions to Represented 1st party series, so that sounds like a Roster where alot of the Newcomers would be switchroos for some of the cuts, which is fine in terms of new stuff being added
Whoever's subscribed to Source Gaming's YouTube channel, you probably know that they're picking 20 stages for the next Smash tomorrow. So I wanted to ask: what are 20 stages you guys would like to see in the next game? For me:
Flower Kingdom
(Super Mario Bros. Wonder)
Grassland Groove
(Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze)
Reminds me, I kinda wish Min Min's stage was Ribbon Ring instead of Spring Stadium if it was gonna be something unrelated to her anyways. Ribbon Ring is really unique aesthetically and the rising platforms are a fun gimmick, can't think of many other games that could offer a stage like that.
If we're branching into unlikely third parties, Facing Worlds from Unreal Tournament is an incredibly iconic location which would make for a great stage. Has a really rich history and a simple but striking design.
It seems like most people here have a pretty healthy mindset regarding cuts. Only like 20ish characters are obvious locks, with pretty much everyone else having some reasonable possibility of being left behind, even if some are more likely than others.
Just keeping this in mind will really help when Smash 6 rolls around and your favorite character is nowhere to be seen. There is a big difference between being apathetic when a character returns and pissed off when they’re cut vs. being overjoyed when they return and mildly disappointed when they’re cut.
I know I’ll be chilling because I pretty much exclusively play newcomers every game lol
So wait, how many cuts go you guys predict then? It seems a lot of the time I see Conversations about specific characters getting cut, it seems that there's most of the time Defense on why they won't get cut and that the character "Isn't going anywhere", There's characters with less defense than others, like Plant, Incineroar, and Corrin, but if people are predicting 10-20+ Cuts on the roster, I'd Imagine some of the characters will be shocking to see get cut
Whoever's subscribed to Source Gaming's YouTube channel, you probably know that they're picking 20 stages for the next Smash tomorrow. So I wanted to ask: what are 20 stages you guys would like to see in the next game? For me:
Flower Kingdom
(Super Mario Bros. Wonder)
Grassland Groove
(Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze)
Whoever's subscribed to Source Gaming's YouTube channel, you probably know that they're picking 20 stages for the next Smash tomorrow. So I wanted to ask: what are 20 stages you guys would like to see in the next game? For me:
Flower Kingdom
(Super Mario Bros. Wonder)
Grassland Groove
(Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze)
A lot of our cuts next game will probably be third party. I’d say there’s a fair chance we lose about half of our guest characters. It’s not always a matter of x or y being easy or hard to get, but can also just boil down to new priorities. We’ve never had more than a handful of guests carry over from game to game, and prior to Ultimate the only mainstay was Sonic. So we don’t really know what the “norm” is here, and for all we know we could see quite a few phased out to make room for new faces. Even seemingly easy ones like Kazuya, Snake or Joker are in danger IMO. But I think most participating companies will keep at least a single ambassador.
I think third parties are solely a matter of whether or not licensing deals get off the ground. Let's face it, there's really no intrinsic reason to cut any of the third parties presently on the roster beyond the fact that getting them in the game legally is more difficult. If you ignore corporate ownership and just consider how generally iconic and popular these characters are, cutting Snake or Kazuya would be equivalent to cutting Villager or Samus. When you factor in the general reverence that Smash gives its vets, I don't think we're going to see any of Ultimate's third-party veterans outright replaced by new third parties. The old guard will buck most of the new blood to DLC, not the other way around.
It's this reason that I think the majority of the base game third party newcomers will be supporting characters from franchises already in Smash rather than bringing in completely new series. If you're spending much of the game's budget on licensing, you may as well get your money's worth and see if some of Smash's more cooperative partners are willing to let Sakurai do more with each franchise.
So wait, how many cuts go you guys predict then? It seems a lot of the time I see Conversations about specific characters getting cut, it seems that there's most of the time Defense on why they won't get cut and that the character "Isn't going anywhere", There's characters with less defense than others, like Plant, Incineroar, and Corrin, but if people are predicting 10-20+ Cuts on the roster, I'd Imagine some of the characters will be shocking to see get cut
So wait, how many cuts go you guys predict then? It seems a lot of the time I see Conversations about specific characters getting cut, it seems that there's most of the time Defense on why they won't get cut and that the character "Isn't going anywhere", There's characters with less defense than others, like Plant, Incineroar, and Corrin, but if people are predicting 10-20+ Cuts on the roster, I'd Imagine some of the characters will be shocking to see get cut
I really don't see the next game exceeding Ultimate's base roster. Ultimate had the benefit of carrying over from Smash 4 and importing a lot of its content to ease up the dev time. If this next game is going to be in a new engine and whatnot then I'm expecting cuts in the 20s if not more.
I think third parties are solely a matter of whether or not licensing deals get off the ground. Let's face it, there's really no intrinsic reason to cut any of the third parties presently on the roster beyond the fact that getting them in the game legally is more difficult. If you ignore corporate ownership and just consider how generally iconic and popular these characters are, cutting Snake or Kazuya would be equivalent to cutting Villager or Samus. When you factor in the general reverence that Smash gives its vets, I don't think we're going to see any of Ultimate's third-party veterans outright replaced by new third parties. The old guard will buck most of the new blood to DLC, not the other way around.
It's this reason that I think the majority of the base game third party newcomers will be supporting characters from franchises already in Smash rather than bringing in completely new series. If you're spending much of the game's budget on licensing, you may as well get your money's worth and see if some of Smash's more cooperative partners are willing to let Sakurai do more with each franchise.
In terms of sales of the base game, each individual third party past the first handful of them is a diminishing return relative to how much it costs licensing-wise to add the third party, unless possibly it's fitting into some grander marketing scheme like EiH. They'll likely think it sufficient to just get a few new third parties and a good chunk of the biggest old ones like Sonic or whoever, some names to slap on the back of the box and help to headline the cast alongside Mario, Pikachu, and co., and potentially promise a few others back as DLC.
Tbh, just numbers-wise and regardless of any licensing, I just don't see how they could fit all the third party vets in. Trying to keep all of them, pretty much any way you slice it, forces you to cut that much deeper into the existing first party roster. It would definitely come at a great cost of other fan favorites and a litany of 1-rep franchises that get their biggest chance to shine in Smash. And then, the potential licensing hiccups and certain third parties potentially preferring DLC payouts only make it more difficult.
It's beyond bold to compare cutting Snake or Kazuya to cutting Villager or Samus. Nintendo has a vested interest into the latter series and can put them in Smash completely free of extra cost or negotiation. Those are not just mascots but their own mascots whose games appeal most specifically to the people on their own platform that they're trying to sell Smash (and those other games) to. I mean they literally cut Snake in Smash 4 already and, while plenty of people were disappointed and wanted him back, even voted on the Ballot to get him back, in the grand scheme of things it was a blip on the radar as far as the overall well-being of the series goes. I just don't see how cutting Kazuya, for example, would be any worse for people than cutting whichever other first party bubble character you might pick out.
3rd parties and clones/echos are in the most danger. I do feel there's a few 1st parties that are gonna be surprise cuts. But then again, Ice Climbers was cut due to hardware so anything can happen
Looks like the OG 12, most of Melee, Sonic, and a few popular Brawl/4/Ultimate are safe. That's gonna land it to maybe 50 characters minimum imo
The only way I can see a proper next Smash game exceeding Ultimate's roster is if it went full live-service rolling updates across years, which is definitely both very unviable for a company like Nintendo on a console-exclusive game, and also would still requires years of content updates to start approaching it if it's really gonna have over 20 cuts. A single character takes 6 months to development after all.
Also since I forgot to respond, it was a bit yeah lol. I just thought it would be funny to see how far I could push stuff like "Sonic is a Sonic.EXE rep" while sounding like I was trying to make a reasonable point. But part of the joke there is sounding serious and only progressively getting more absurd, so it's def expected and understandable there was confusion. I mainly just like being a clown sometimes. Besides, I forgot to bring up as well that Sora is a Smash Flash rep, which is a PC exclusive game.
One oddity to remember is that DLC outside of Mewtwo in 4 is generally decided after the base roster is figured out and then well after even then.
Characters wouldn't be generally moved to DLC. They never made it in in the first place, because DLC came up later as an idea. This is more around how Sakurai likes to do it, though. He wants the base game done, and any DLC made in addition to it later. As in, stuff isn't removed so it can be DLC. It's removed because it couldn't make it in, period. In Ultimate's case, DLC was decided much later in development. Anyone who is DLC was chosen to be DLC in the first place. 4 is a unique case, and no, Lucas wasn't cut to be DLC. That's a nice theory, but doesn't match at all. Lucas was cut because they didn't have time. That's it.
Mewtwo is unique in that it was planned for the base game, but couldn't make it in time. It wasn't simply moved to DLC so much as DLC was a concept they could be gotten away with and wasn't treated as "definite". Mewtwo was the only actual planned one in order to test if it'll go well with Smash customers. It did well enough(and at the very least, Sakurai may have worked on some concepts/work on potentially more DLC before it was clear it'd go well, at least) to justify more.
Ultimate was in a different position. If DLC wasn't basically told to Sakurai by Nintendo that they want it, we weren't getting PP. We weren't getting more 3rd Party Mii Costumes(though it is possible we could've gotten a few base, but only returning ones at best). We weren't getting Home Run Contest. Etc. They were gone, period.
So no, they aren't going to cut 3rd parties just to return them as DLC. It doesn't work that way with how Smash is developed. If they're cut, it means they weren't possible to make at the time. When Nintendo determines they want DLC back, they'd be re-negotiated for at best. Unless Sakurai was given the go-ahead to still create them... if it could work out. However, it wouldn't happen. Why? Because Sakurai isn't going to license a character he may not actually use. It's either "Yes they will use it" period, or "hope DLC is greenlit and then we'll see how it goes". Any cuts we see were not planned for DLC. It doesn't make sense.
Costumes however are more unique in that they were always planned for DLC in 4 but only after Mewtwo overall(as in, Mewtwo was chosen before any other DLC would've been greenlit, but also because it wasn't clear if more would come yet. So any negotiations wouldn't have happened till they were sure more would be done). This also means that Sakurai was sure of more DLC before negotiating for Ryu and the various costumes respectively. Lucas was a different story, since it's not a 3rd party character(albeit, much like Pokemon, obviously he's not wholely owned by Nintendo). But that aside, Costumes may have been ideally attempted to be licensed for Smash Ultimate's base game. However, it's pretty clear something didn't work out. Either because they were only going to be DLC since the companies wanted more cash overall, or because they were never licensed to go into Ultimate. Presumably they may have been but re-negotiated for, since Cloud came back for base, which is close enough to the development period he could've been negotiated for both Base Ultimate and DLC Smash For at the same time. Which is why the final costumes among Corrin/Bayonetta/Cloud are interesting as well. What exactly happened? Were they never negotiated for in Ultimate? Did they try but the companies said no in the first place? Did things change going into Ultimate and negotiations change since they couldn't be DLC(as DLC wouldn't exist till over 2 years later into development as well). It'd be cool if we found out, sure. But we don't know.
That said, this is what we know;
No character is going to be cut just so they can be DLC. Unless Sakurai is not in charge. Which while unlikely, is the only reason it could happen.
If we're not getting a 3rd party, they never were possible for base anyway. DLC is a thing that comes way later and may still make it in as an attempt at renegotiation.
It's pretty much a guarantee that 3rd party costumes are going to be DLC. DLC is also likewise coming again. Like, at this point, it's not a guess.
There's also no real indication of who we could lose going into Smash 6. Clones are not in a truly bad position in the first place, there's absolutely zero information on the next system(so any oddities that would cut someone like Pokemon Trainer are a pure mystery), and we can't rely very well on precedent since cuts are all over the place. Mewtwo used to be a clear and easy cut here and there, but now it's pretty clearly a mainstay. Jigglypuff almost got cut more than once, but still keeps at it. Ness was intended to be replaced, but he's now pretty much the core Mother representative, with Lucas blatantly being secondary.
Wolf, Lucas, Pichu are three of the least safe overall. Dr. Mario does not fall under this as he's very easy to make and they intentionally deviated him to the point he's like having an alternate Mario moveset. If he were to be cut, it's because Mario is returning to his earlier style or they found a way to fuse characters into costumes but still have gameplay differences without issues. Which, to say the least, neither is truly likely to happen.
Clones and Echoes are not actually in that much danger. Echoes are actually even more safe since they require little effort. Semi-Clones are the least safe since they're the hardest to work with, but regular Clones(of which there's not much of, to be fair) are in a fairly good spot.
Some Semi-Clones can be unsafe. However, Isabelle, Ganondorf, Falco, these definitely are safe. Unless they reduce almost everything to one rep per franchise, but I doubt AC would get less than 2(Villager is the more safe of the two, but I still don't see Isabelle having a real chance of being cut. Also, the main playable character does have more precedence over the mascot sometimes. But more especially if they were chosen first. It wasn't a coincidence Villager was chosen over Tom Nook. They wanted to represent the core gameplay. That isn't Isabelle's job).
Toon Link and Young Link are in a truly weird spot as we don't know what's going on with this situation. Young Link is probably more likely to be cut, though both could stay too. It can entirely depend the games coming out. If the only games are more about the classic style, Young Link could stay over Toon Link. TOTK Link is the obvious minor changes to regular Link otherwise. As for the rest of the Zelda stuff, we're pretty unlikely to see any "versions" of the other three. Sheik aside, Zelda doesn't fit in the BOTW/TOTK style, due to being specifically designed with other versions in mind. Ganondorf probably won't change since he's blatantly focused on a different style that doesn't fit TOTK that well, but he still could happen(and no, he isn't getting a giant moveset overhaul or a new one. Nobody has gotten and nobody ever will with Sakurai here, and it may still not happen, since people really care about his design philosophy out of respect for him).
I understand, but god it deeply pains me that Little Mac needs to sit among this crowd and isn't chilling with Pit like he should be.
Punch-Out is not just some random retro game like Ice Climber, or even a big hit with only a single game like Duck Hunt. It is a series, and dare I say even a pretty substantial one - its series trajectory is not unlike Kid Icarus (a few old games and one really great reboot), and it received a full on new entry to the series more recently than any of the retro picks, or Captain Falcon (kinda) and Ness. Five games under its belt, if you want to count the arcade releases which we probably should. Six if you want to count Doc Louis' Punch-Out, which I wouldn't but I just felt like mentioning.
So it puts Little Mac in this strange category of being too new to the roster to be untouchable, but too old of a character to ride on any relevance argument or modern popularity. I think this should make him about as much of a no-brainer as anyone else, especially factoring in his popularity among casual players and his distinct archetypical role, and Punch-Out is perhaps one of the most commonly nodded-to retro titles in Nintendo's arsenal.
But there's a part of me that is, deep down, concerned for my boy because of how limited Punch-Out's current presence on the game is. The puny song selection and the lack of an assist trophy (still f'ing baffling to me ten years later) do not help the case, but I really hope Sakurai sees it my way. I hope that if / when Mac returns next game he's able to carry with him something resembling actual series representation that establishes Punch-Out more as its own discernible series with a strong identity and dynamic cast of characters and not as a retro accommodation like Ice Climber or Duck Hunt, where it lingers right now.
Part of this is also likely due to the poor design choices surrounding the character; a platform fighter who can't platform makes for an easy laughing stock.
Tangentially related to Min Min, but I hope that they revisit the design for an ARMS character in the future. It doesn't have to be Min-Min, and in fact I'd like to see Dr. Coyle as the rep, but my main concern is how literal the translation of an ARMS character was. So much of the moveset just isn't interesting because it's the same punch over and over.
"You control each arm with A and B, like in ARMS!" Okay, cool. I'm not playing ARMS. I'm playing Smash Bros. I'd like it if the long ARM punches were more reserved for specials, (it's weird how she just...doesn't have a side special) and she had more normal attacks to fill in the gaps for stuff like F-tilt, F-air, etc. She has less moves than everyone else right off the bat, and I think lately the Smash team has been a little too literal with their design philosophy in the sense that the character has to play almost 1:1 with their home game.
Making up more moves wouldn't just solve the issue of her kit being boring, but it would add depth to the character and give more potential to make any additional ARMS characters different by better showing off their personalities through different attacks.
While I love playing as Min Min, and watching her get away with murder brings me great delight, her design lacks depth. It's a problem with basically all of Super Smash Bros.'s long ranged zoners, but Min Min is probably the worst offender since Punch is pretty one note as a move in exchange for being dummy strong compared to basically every other zoning tool in the game. Comparing it to other characters, there's Trick Shot, which acts as a central mechanic that Duck Hunt's move set is built around, there's Phantom, which is over-centralizing due to all of Zelda's other attacks being bad, and then there's Punch, which is basically the entire move set. She probably could have benefited from taking inspiration from characters like Dhalsim who have already explored the idea of long ranged zoning normals and the design decisions that work with it.
I really don't see the next game exceeding Ultimate's base roster. Ultimate had the benefit of carrying over from Smash 4 and importing a lot of its content to ease up the dev time. If this next game is going to be in a new engine and whatnot then I'm expecting cuts in the 20s if not more.
Out of curiosity, what’s everyone’s stance on a “surprise” newcomer (i.e. Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., Duck Hunt, and Piranha Plant so far) for the next game?
As far as the one to one designs go (like these: and maybe also these:), they usually end up with problems. Min Min lacks depth, Steve adds an interaction that the rest of the cast wasn't designed with in mind, Ryu, Ken, and Mega Man are clunky to handle, Kazuya has a lot of jank properties in the name of balance, and Robin gets punished for playing the video game. I don't think these designs are unsalvageable, and these wonky move sets are also for the better, as it makes them unique and, if you're into the gimmick, really dang cool. Some of the design problems are easy to solve too. Ryu and Ken's clunky controls stem mainly from their tap vs. hold inputs on attacks with quick frame data, and you could solve that by adding a "classic controls" option, allowing you to use the grab button for heavy attacks, and restricting their light attacks to the attack button. Grabs can still be done with attack + shield.
Oh, and Terry is OK! by far the most successful implimentation of this approach.
Pretty good I'd say. The Switch 2 is heavily rumored to be backwards compatible with the Switch and you can't really incentivize people with a Smash system seller if the title is a remaster of a 2018 game that everyone and their mother played for years, and you can easily pop the game into the new console with your old cartridge to boot. A new fresh direction is needed for the next Smash if they want to market the shiny new sparkling game for the audience.
