Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The only real notable point is the Echoes were actually decided upon at the start of development, not the end. So they aren't actually equivalent to last minute clones. They're the opposite. They're actually outright easier, since they know what their plan is very early on. That said, the original Melee version of Dr. Mario is kind of the only one who is pretty close to an Echo(but only during Melee. He's pretty different in 4 and Ultimate, quite extremely so).

That said, there's a fair chance some were worked on at the end of development(Richter is likely the exception, but only cause he and Simon were brought in together. The rest were added in separate from the original in this game). We really don't know much at all about development bar a very tiny few things;

• All the base game characters were decided upon. Yes, even the Echoes. There were no changes to the lineup whatsoever.
• Incineroar is like Greninja, however, which is being a placeholder Pokemon spot. This is the only one to be confirmed to not be developed first.
• Being we saw some buggy stuff with Chrom, it implies that he was worked on as one of the later characters. But unlike the first two bullet points, that's an actual guess.

Brawl is slightly similar in that it had a set of characters intended. Everyone that made it in was not actually last minute into the plan. It's more that some were available last minute due to how development happened. Sonic being denied threw some things out of whack too. This isn't why the other Forbidden 7 were planned, though. It was quite ambitious to have a total of 42 characters(or 41 depending what Pra_Mai might've been. If they were Plusle & Minun, they might be more like Ice Climbers and treated as one total character. Which is odd, but it's only Transformation characters that count as a separate one. Part of it is also that one is CPU-controlled in some way. It's still complicated when you have minor A.I. like the Pikmin, though).

 

[Perkilator]

Okay, I'm going to take another crack at a roster for the next game (Italics bold denotes newcomers)

Spoiler

Mario​	Luigi​	Peach (ε: Daisy)​	Bowser​	Rosalina & Luma​	Yoshi​	Wario​	Waluigi​	Toad​	Donkey Kong​
Diddy Kong (ε: Dixie Kong)​	King K. Rool​	Link​	Zelda​	Ganondorf​	Rauru​	Samus (ε: Dark Samus)​	Ridley​	Raven Beak​	Kirby​
King Dedede​	Meta Knight​	Bandana Waddle Dee​	Magolor​	Fox​	Falco​	Pikachu​	Charizard​	Mewtwo​	Lucario​
Greninja​	Incineroar​	New Pokémon​	Ness​	Captain Falcon​	Ice Climbers​	Marth (ε: Lucina)​	Ike​	Robin​	Byleth​
New FE​	Mr. Game & Watch​	Pit (ε: Dark Pit)​	Palutena​	Olimar​	Oatchi​	R.O.B.​	Villager​	Isabelle​	K.K. Slider​
Shulk​	Pyra & Mythra​	Noah​	Mio​	Duck Hunt​	Inkling​	Octoling​	Min Min (ε: Ninjara)​	Ring Fit Trainee​	Mii Fighters​
Sonic​	Dr. Eggman​	Mega Man​	Ryu (ε: Ken)​	Chun-Li​	PAC-MAN​	Cloud​	Sephiroth​	Hero​	2B​
Bayonetta​	Simon (ε: Richter)​	Banjo & Kazooie​	Terry​	Steve​	Sora​	Power Pro-Kun​	Zagreus​	Rayman​	RANDOM​

 

[ScrubReborn]

I think it'd be cool if Dry Bowser was an echo, and along with some attribute changes (generally just being lighter, not having tough guy, but having better aerial drift) and a bone-throw side special, he had pre-Smash 4 Bowser's horrible dash "animation." I love legacy weirdness like that and echoes/clones are good places to have some of it.

I wanted to see Dry Bowser as an alt for the longest but nah this is a better idea.

Though now that you've planted the idea in my head, I'd personally go even farther and just give him Melee/Brawl Bowser's moveset (which is only like 5/6 different moves but still). Normally I don't like the idea of "hand me down" clones, but Melee/Brawl Bowser's moveset fits Dry Bowser perfectly; hell it prolly fits him more than it fits Bowser. so I'll make an exception for him. 'Cause as much as I miss Melee/Brawl Bowser sometimes, I don't want current Bowser to revert back.

If they were Plusle & Minun, they might be more like Ice Climbers and treated as one total character. Which is odd, but it's only Transformation characters that count as a separate one. Part of it is also that one is CPU-controlled in some way. It's still complicated when you have minor A.I. like the Pikmin, though).

A newer theory I've heard is that "prai_mai", if it was Pulse and Minum, might have been intended to be a early Alph/Koopalings situation where half the alts were Pluse and the other were Minun. I like the idea, it would explain why they only have one character file rather than two like Ice Climbers. If it's true they were probably just gonna be Pichu reskins

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

A newer theory I've heard is that "prai_mai", if it was Pulse and Minum, might have been intended to be a early Alph/Koopalings situation where half the alts were Pluse and the other were Minun. I like the idea, it would explain why they only have one character file rather than two like Ice Climbers.

Alternatively, it's because no work was done on it, so it wouldn't have more than one character file. It's a pure placeholder of an "idea" they thought of.

That's not a bad thought either, but I'm not sure it would be labeled like that, though. Then again, what is Steve/Alex labeled like? I never looked at the data.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It'd be fun to see a timeline where Plussle and Minun got in, because I feel like they were a replacement for Pichu, which may have meant that the intention was to add another Pikachu clone in each game.

• Smash 4 would have had Emolga.
  • Dedenne would have been newer, but doesn't share a body plan.
• Smash Ultimate's Pokémon newcomer could have been Mimikyu.
  • With Pichu, Plussle/Minun, and the Smash 4 pick back, this trend would probably die, but Mimikyu did come at just the right time to be picked, and would technically be a Pikachu clone while also being a fully fledged fighter.

There are a lot of assumptions here, but this is a funny timeline.

Alternatively, it's because no work was done on it, so it wouldn't have more than one character file. It's a pure placeholder of an "idea" they thought of.

That's not a bad thought either, but I'm not sure it would be labeled like that, though. Then again, what is Steve/Alex labeled like? I never looked at the data.

IIRC the DLC fighters are labeled with code names. So for example, Terry is listed as "Dolly" in the code.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

IIRC the DLC fighters are labeled with code names. So for example, Terry is listed as "Dolly" in the code.

I'm not sure there's anyone in a similar position. So I guess there's no real way to tell what it could mean with the information we have. Welp.

 

[ScrubReborn]

IIRC the DLC fighters are labeled with code names. So for example, Terry is listed as "Dolly" in the code.

Yeah. According to SmashWiki, Steve's filename is "pickel".

 

[Momotsuki]

Steve's codename is pickel I believe. Which, yeah, is kind of funny. Ninja'd. Delete this post, please.

 

[ninjahmos]

Do Mii Costumes really increase characters' chances for the next Smash game?

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I say it's shows the character is kept in consideration like Isabelle, Chrom, Inkling and K.Rool

and then Sakurai saying in the penultimate direct saying characters like Dante and Shantae were very high in demand

 

[StrangeKitten]

I think it'd be cool if Dry Bowser was an echo, and along with some attribute changes (generally just being lighter, not having tough guy, but having better aerial drift) and a bone-throw side special, he had pre-Smash 4 Bowser's horrible dash "animation." I love legacy weirdness like that and echoes/clones are good places to have some of it.

Oh, how much I'd adore a Dry Bowser that brought back Koopa Klaw from Melee. That attack was so brutal and fun to use!

 

[fogbadge]

Also remember when everyone thought Chrom would be an Ike clone instead of Roy?

remember when it was smash 4 who said it?

 

[MrMcNuts]

Do Mii Costumes really increase characters' chances for the next Smash game?

Hard to say cause while some 1st party ones got upgraded from 4 to ultimate, none of the 3rd party ones (Geno, Lloyd) got upgraded at all, so who knows.

Also as the resident Rayman supporter I'm obligated to bring up the fact he's getting a board game

Not a new game but nice to see more IP usage, a few more relevancy points and yet again proof that amiibo/figurines of him are possible

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hilariously, "everyone" included Sakurai himself.

Not exactly. Since he noted he was too similar to Ike and Marth. ...Which being he takes from Marth and Ike as an Echo to some degree(mostly Marth), it's even funnier.

 

[Slime Scholar]

remember when it was smash 4 who said it?

I was always really confused by the Palutena's Guidance about this because even a glance at both characters will tell you that Chrom wields a single-handed blade while Ike carries a heavy great sword that requires a completely different set of animations. It makes no sense for Chrom to swing around Marth's sword as if it had the same weight and heft as Ragnell.

 

[fogbadge]

I was always really confused by the Palutena's Guidance about this because even a glance at both characters will tell you that Chrom wields a single-handed blade while Ike carries a heavy great sword that requires a completely different set of animations. It makes no sense for Chrom to swing around Marth's sword as if it had the same weight and heft as Ragnell.

Personally I think sak just doesn’t like chrom

 

[superprincess]

remember when it was smash 4 who said it?

Because Roy wasn't in Smash 4.

Anyways speaking of clones, I wish we could've seen Medusa and Jeanne as echoes in Ultimate. Given the state of their franchises, I don't see them making it in next time.

 

[fogbadge]

Because Roy wasn't in Smash 4.

Anyways speaking of clones, I wish we could've seen Medusa and Jeanne as echoes in Ultimate. Given the state of their franchises, I don't see them making it in next time.

so?

 

[Guynamednelson]

I personally find it very difficult to get excited about a park I'll most likely never visit in my lifetime

It's not excitement, it's...proof they're investing millions into something DK.

Doesn't matter if it's a game, movie, park, toys, whatever. Investing millions into a DK project is investing millions into a DK project.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I was always really confused by the Palutena's Guidance about this because even a glance at both characters will tell you that Chrom wields a single-handed blade while Ike carries a heavy great sword that requires a completely different set of animations. It makes no sense for Chrom to swing around Marth's sword as if it had the same weight and heft as Ragnell.

But they both do the jumpy spinny move. They're practically the same character!

 

[kirbstr]

I was always really confused by the Palutena's Guidance about this because even a glance at both characters will tell you that Chrom wields a single-handed blade while Ike carries a heavy great sword that requires a completely different set of animations. It makes no sense for Chrom to swing around Marth's sword as if it had the same weight and heft as Ragnell.

Ike being a slow and heavy character never made much sense to begin with. It was done pretty much just to distinguish him from Marth in Brawl. I think Sakurai saw that Chrom's main skill in Awakening was Aether, same as Ike, and as such thought he'd be too similar if they tried making a move set for him. Or they did try making a move set that was different from Marth and it ended up being too close to Ike. Most likely they had issues creating special moves to distinguish them all from each other.

One of my big Smash conspiracy theories that has almost no evidence behind it, but I still believe to be true, is that the new move set they gave Roy when they added him back as DLC in Smash 4 was actually what they were initially building for Chrom in early planning. They just slapped on Roy's special moves from Melee and called it a day. It would explain why Chrom is an echo fighter of Roy and not Ike in Ult despite the supposed similarities between Ike and Chrom.

 

[Noipoi]

Hard to say cause while some 1st party ones got upgraded from 4 to ultimate, none of the 3rd party ones (Geno, Lloyd) got upgraded at all, so who knows.

Also as the resident Rayman supporter I'm obligated to bring up the fact he's getting a board game
View attachment 387983
Not a new game but nice to see more IP usage, a few more relevancy points and yet again proof that amiibo/figurines of him are possible

I love how whenever they give Rayman a figure he’s doing something weird, just so they have somewhere to put his hands.

Makes me wonder what his Smash render would look like if he ever got one, because they have to account for amiibo.

 

[fogbadge]

Ike being a slow and heavy character never made much sense to begin with. It was done pretty much just to distinguish him from Marth in Brawl. I think Sakurai saw that Chrom's main skill in Awakening was Aether, same as Ike, and as such thought he'd be too similar if they tried making a move set for him. Or they did try making a move set that was different from Marth and it ended up being too close to Ike. Most likely they had issues creating special moves to distinguish them all from each other.

One of my big Smash conspiracy theories that has almost no evidence behind it, but I still believe to be true, is that the new move set they gave Roy when they added him back as DLC in Smash 4 was actually what they were initially building for Chrom in early planning. They just slapped on Roy's special moves from Melee and called it a day. It would explain why Chrom is an echo fighter of Roy and not Ike in Ult despite the supposed similarities between Ike and Chrom.

he described chrom as ike without aether

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

he described chrom as ike without aether

As well as this;

Chrom: “When it came time to decide on a character from “Fire Emblem: Awakening”, I had even thought of a moveset for him. However in the long run, he was just in between Marth and Ike, so he wasn’t added.”

The Definitive List of Unused Fighters in Smash

A comprehensive update to the Definitive List of Unused Fighters in Smash! A fully sourced list of every statement made by Sakurai on potential fighters for each entry in the Smash series.

sourcegaming.info

So yeah, the inbetween is a lot bigger than just simply relating to Ike. Where's the source of the other statement, though? Cause that sheds more light on his thoughts.

 

[TheQuester]

How do you guys feel about 2B from Nier: Automata getting as DLC in the next installament?

 

[kirbstr]

he described chrom as ike without aether

It was said in the Palutena's guidance conversation said he didn't have an Aether recovery move, which is true. His animation for Aether in the games did not have him leaping up in the air like Ike's does. They obviously changed it to be similar in Ultimate anyways.

This is a quote from Sakurai in a famitsu column:

"Here I give the example of Chrom. When it came time to decide on a character from “Fire Emblem: Awakening”, I had even thought of a moveset for him. However in the long run, he was just in between Marth and Ike, so he wasn’t added."

He had a similar quote in another article:

"I played all the way through FE:A and really wanted to include a character from that rich cast in Smash Bros. Naturally, I considered adding Chrom to the roster, but the decision wasn’t easy by any means. At the end of the day, Chrom would just end up being another plain-old sword-wielder like Marth and Ike. Compared with other characters, he lacks any unique characteristics."

So yea, Chrom wasn't added because he was basically too similar to the two already existing FE characters, low and behold once they added Roy back as a somewhat cross between Ike and Marth with a few new moves he was an easy Echo fighter. How convenient. Sakurai even confirms he had a move set thought up for him already as well.

 

[RileyXY1]

It was said in the Palutena's guidance conversation said he didn't have an Aether recovery move, which is true. His animation for Aether in the games did not have him leaping up in the air like Ike's does. They obviously changed it to be similar in Ultimate anyways.

This is a quote from Sakurai in a famitsu column:

"Here I give the example of Chrom. When it came time to decide on a character from “Fire Emblem: Awakening”, I had even thought of a moveset for him. However in the long run, he was just in between Marth and Ike, so he wasn’t added."

He had a similar quote in another article:

"I played all the way through FE:A and really wanted to include a character from that rich cast in Smash Bros. Naturally, I considered adding Chrom to the roster, but the decision wasn’t easy by any means. At the end of the day, Chrom would just end up being another plain-old sword-wielder like Marth and Ike. Compared with other characters, he lacks any unique characteristics."

So yea, Chrom wasn't added because he was basically too similar to the two already existing FE characters, low and behold once they added Roy back as a somewhat cross between Ike and Marth with a few new moves he was an easy Echo fighter. How convenient. Sakurai even confirms he had a move set thought up for him already as well.

It also helps that a model for Chrom was already made through his cameo in Robin's FS.

 

[BritishGuy54]

How do you guys feel about 2B from Nier: Automata getting as DLC in the next installament?

I’m not 100% confident Square Enix will come back at all, or rather they just keep their characters as DLC.

2B has tough competition, with Cloud and Hero as strong picks for returning veterans, and then there being the big fan demand choice of Geno.

If there has to be another new SE character, I’m on board with that choice being 2B.

 

[Perkilator]

How do you guys feel about 2B from Nier: Automata getting as DLC in the next installament?

I’d be up for it!

 

[kirbstr]

I’m not 100% confident Square Enix will come back at all, or rather they just keep their characters as DLC.

2B has tough competition, with Cloud and Hero as strong picks for returning veterans, and then there being the big fan demand choice of Geno.

If there has to be another new SE character, I’m on board with that choice being 2B.

Cloud nearly didn't make it back in as a base game character but we then got 3 square characters as DLC. I'm guessing whatever square characters we do get in the next game will be DLC 100%.

Sad because Chrono is in my top 5 most wanted characters for the next game.

 

[Noipoi]

How do you guys feel about 2B from Nier: Automata getting as DLC in the next installament?

2B, or not 2B.

That is the question.

 

[fogbadge]

As well as this;

Chrom: “When it came time to decide on a character from “Fire Emblem: Awakening”, I had even thought of a moveset for him. However in the long run, he was just in between Marth and Ike, so he wasn’t added.”

The Definitive List of Unused Fighters in Smash

A comprehensive update to the Definitive List of Unused Fighters in Smash! A fully sourced list of every statement made by Sakurai on potential fighters for each entry in the Smash series.

sourcegaming.info

So yeah, the inbetween is a lot bigger than just simply relating to Ike. Where's the source of the other statement, though? Cause that sheds more light on his thoughts.

oh it was from paultena codec about robin in 4. which i acknowledge may not have been written by sakurai but i've got into a habit of referring to the smash team as sakurai.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Do Mii Costumes really increase characters' chances for the next Smash game?

Sad because Chrono is in my top 5 most wanted characters for the next game.

I think Crono's chances are highly dependent on whether Chono Trigger is getting a remake any time soon.

 

[MrMcNuts]

I love how whenever they give Rayman a figure he’s doing something weird, just so they have somewhere to put his hands.

Makes me wonder what his Smash render would look like if he ever got one, because they have to account for amiibo.

Probably something like this

 

[Garteam]

I do think Dixie has a little more going for her than a lot of people might initially think. I'd gauge her as the fourth most popular first-party request behind Waluigi, Bandana Waddle Dee, and Isaac and she did reasonably well in the ballot, if Source Gaming's polls are any indication. That might be enough to push her over the edge and onto the roster as a lower-priority newcomer, especially if Sakurai continues to trend towards fan favourites for the base roster. King K. Rool being so well-received may also tilt the needle slightly in Dixie's direction. If people like when DK gets a newcomer, maybe there's some merit to adding more than one DK character per decade.

Her biggest issue is that Nintendo has proven it has no internal idea of what to do with Donkey Kong as an IP. The series has consistently been at its most healthy and popular when it was tied to an outside dev with a unique vision for what DK should look like, like Rare or Retro Studios. When Nintendo is aimlessly handing the series off from development studio to development studio, that's when the games become sparse and of questionable quality (Jungle Beat ****ing slaps though). Without games, it's a lot tougher to justify Dixie's inclusion at her current level of popularity.

I will say Donkey Kong getting a theme park and film, along with Miyamoto mentioning he wants to intertwine the DK and Mario universes to a greater degree in the future, is a very promising sign of things to come for Dixie. She's essentially the series' de facto female lead, so she'll almost certainly be making appearances in both ventures. There is the big question of whether this is all going to be too late to make a difference, though.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Most liberal Echo ever tho... which again wouldn't even work cause Diddy has a tail and all.

Diddy in Ultimate doesn't even use his tail on any attacks. They can just nix the tail from the skeleton and it basically affects nothing

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Because Roy wasn't in Smash 4.

Anyways speaking of clones, I wish we could've seen Medusa and Jeanne as echoes in Ultimate. Given the state of their franchises, I don't see them making it in next time.

I could see Jeanne making it in, since Bayonetta 3 is a second half Switch games it's still fairly relevant, it's in the same boat as Xenoblade 3, which personally I don't think it's too late.

 

[RileyXY1]

I do think Dixie has a little more going for her than a lot of people might initially think. I'd gauge her as the fourth most popular first-party request behind Waluigi, Bandana Waddle Dee, and Isaac and she did reasonably well in the ballot, if Source Gaming's polls are any indication. That might be enough to push her over the edge and onto the roster as a lower-priority newcomer, especially if Sakurai continues to trend towards fan favourites for the base roster. King K. Rool being so well-received may also tilt the needle slightly in Dixie's direction. If people like when DK gets a newcomer, maybe there's some merit to adding more than one DK character per decade.

Her biggest issue is that Nintendo has proven it has no internal idea of what to do with Donkey Kong as an IP. The series has consistently been at its most healthy and popular when it was tied to an outside dev with a unique vision for what DK should look like, like Rare or Retro Studios. When Nintendo is aimlessly handing the series off from development studio to development studio, that's when the games become sparse and of questionable quality (Jungle Beat ****ing slaps though). Without games, it's a lot tougher to justify Dixie's inclusion at her current level of popularity.

I will say Donkey Kong getting a theme park and film, along with Miyamoto mentioning he wants to intertwine the DK and Mario universes to a greater degree in the future, is a very promising sign of things to come for Dixie. She's essentially the series' de facto female lead, so she'll almost certainly be making appearances in both ventures. There is the big question of whether this is all going to be too late to make a difference, though.

Not to mention that she was on Sakurai's radar before, as she almost got into Brawl.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I've looked into the DK game situation and from what I've read, seems more like development hell than any animosity from Nintendo. Worth keeping in mind, Bandai Namco was going to develop the next game, then it got handed to Retro Studios, who scrapped everything and started from scratch. And Retro is, of course, still yet to release Metroid Prime 4. Idk what's taking both games this long to come out, but they're simply taking a very long time to come out. I could even see Retro holding off till we get the Switch 2 at this point. Possible they heard about Dread and figured it would make sense to wait for the next console, and for DK, possibly because the game has taken so long to make already. But that's just speculation on my part.

 

[Louie G.]

I personally find it very difficult to get excited about a park I'll most likely never visit in my lifetime. Though yeah, there's the park, the Lego set and the Mario movie... But DKC is a videogame series.

It's fair not to be excited about those things, but your initial statement was something along the lines of "Nintendo doesn't care about DKC". Nintendo funneling money into all of these DK-related side hustles, even if it's not what you want, completely negates that point. There are dozens of Nintendo series that would kill to see that level of merchandising and mainstream visibility, and DK is one of a few that Nintendo has this level of confidence in. A theme park is a BIG DEAL and is a massive expense. It's very shortsighted to see that and somehow just exclude it from the conversation about how healthy an IP is. Donkey Kong is getting that before Zelda, Pokemon and Animal Crossing.

DKC will get a new game eventually. At this point, I understand why people are squirming around in their seats about it. But the obvious answer has always been right in front of us, that Metroid Prime 4 is in development hell and Retro Studios has been trusted with the DKC license for the last few titles. Perhaps a shakeup is in order for DKC to be passed over to Nintendo in-house, or another studio in the meantime, but I presume it may not be top priority because Tropical Freeze is already available on the current hardware where most people would be playing it for the first time. I'm curious what comes next from here but I don't think Nintendo would put this much trust in the Donkey Kong brand if they had no further plans to continue the series.

Now whether or not any of these things will influence Smash, I have no clue. My point is just that DKC is still a brand Nintendo values. Obviously in the context of Smash Bros, it's largely going to be actual new games that play a role in shaping roster discussion and additional representation. Without much forward mobility on that front I can understand being hesitant about new DKC content, personally my hopes aren't too high for it.