Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[superprincess]

Thanks for the laugh. I needed it.

I don't care about Dixie but let's be honest, she can't really work as an echo. She'd need to hover and grab things with her ponytail. It's too big of a feature on her character model to ignore. And seeing how much Smash likes to base characters' moves on their anatomy, Dixie can't work as a pure echo.

 

[CannonStreak]

I don't care about Dixie but let's be honest, she can't really work as an echo. She'd need to hover and grab things with her ponytail. It's too big of a feature on her character model to ignore. And seeing how much Smash likes to base characters' moves on their anatomy, Dixie can't work as a pure echo.

Not to mention, if I recall correctly, Diddy and Dixie were set to be a tag team in Smash Bros. Brawl, but that had to change due to console limitations. If this is true, I could imagine Dixie being different from Diddy if that happened, and I think Sakurai would see that she should get her own moveset rather than be an echo of Diddy.

 

[superprincess]

Not to mention, if I recall correctly, Diddy and Dixie were set to be a tag team in Smash Bros. Brawl, but that had to change due to console limitations. If this is true, I could imagine Dixie being different from Diddy if that happened, and I think Sakurai would see that she should get her own moveset rather than be an echo of Diddy.

Ehhh... that's not really a strong argument — Ice Climbers are a pair that use the exact same attacks.

Her character silhouette being too different is absolutely enough evidence that she can't work as a traditional echo.

 

[CannonStreak]

Ehhh... that's not really a strong argument — Ice Climbers are a pair that use the exact same attacks.

Her character silhouette being too different is absolutely enough evidence that she can't work as a traditional echo.

Yeah, except I was assuming Dixie and Diddy would have had different attacks, unlike the Ice Climbers. So I was not thinking they would use the same attacks if they were tag team, especially if it were possible to change which character is being controlled like in Donkey Kong Country 2.

 

[SubspaceJigglypuff]

Not to mention, if I recall correctly, Diddy and Dixie were set to be a tag team in Smash Bros. Brawl, but that had to change due to console limitations. If this is true, I could imagine Dixie being different from Diddy if that happened, and I think Sakurai would see that she should get her own moveset rather than be an echo of Diddy.

Eh, Golden already mentioned this but with where she seemingly got placed in the priority order in Brawl (her unused internal ID in Brawl places her behind derivative characters like Toon Link/Wolf) suggests (though not confirms) that she was intended to be some form of clone (probably a semi if i had to guess. Which granted is very different than echo but I felt like doing a "well actksually")

 

[Noipoi]

Didn’t expect Dixie Kong of all characters to be such a controversial figure

Do I think she’s at the top of the list for the next game? Nope. And she probably won’t ever be unless the DK franchise sees a massive resurgence.

But I’m also a strong believer in never say never, within reason of course. I bet it’ll happen someday.

 

[CannonStreak]

Eh, Golden already mentioned this but with where she seemingly got placed in the priority order in Brawl (her unused internal ID in Brawl places her behind derivative characters like Toon Link/Wolf) suggests (though not confirms) that she was intended to be some form of clone (probably a semi if i had to guess. Which granted is very different than echo but I felt like doing a "well actksually")

Well, it is not confirmed. Whatever, though, because I was imagining and assuming they'd play differently form each other AND the Donkey Kong Country 2 tag team system was implemented.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Didn’t expect Dixie Kong of all characters to be such a controversial figure

Do I think she’s at the top of the list for the next game? Nope. And she probably won’t ever be unless the DK franchise sees a massive resurgence.

But I’m also a strong believer in never say never, within reason of course. I bet it’ll happen someday.

I can see why the "Ultimate Deluxe couldn't have that many newcomers if the original Ultimate couldn't" argument hasn't killed the idea that SSBUD is possible when people want to act like only 3 characters are possible anyway.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I don't care about Dixie but let's be honest, she can't really work as an echo. She'd need to hover and grab things with her ponytail. It's too big of a feature on her character model to ignore. And seeing how much Smash likes to base characters' moves on their anatomy, Dixie can't work as a pure echo.

Anyone who seriously tries to argue it can't work is deluding themselves.

She can't be Lazy Daisy for sure (nor should anyone), but saying she can't be an Echo period is asinine when we have the likes of Ken and Chrom having notable different attacks from their source.

There is nothing Diddy can do that Dixie cannot imitate as they have the same exact frame with the only difference being the lack of tail....which doesn't matter because Diddy doesn't use it in Smash anymore.

Take Diddy's moveset and then:

-make the running speed slightly lower (just like how is slightly faster)
-make her Helicopter Spin for a Dash Attack just like DK's roll and Diddy's cartwheel (just like how again has a number of different neutral attacks with kicks)
-replace the Up B with a move similar to DK's since Spinning Kong was based on Dixie's hovering technique in the first place (just like how has a move like Ike's Aether instead of Roy's Blazer)
-give her DK's Cargo Throw for heavy items using her ponytail.
-swap out peanuts for gumballs for Neutral Special (aesthetic change, but she was straight up given a Gumball Popgun to mimic Diddy in Tropical Freeze)


There. You have Dixie easily with nothing that looks out of place as an Echo that like Ken, pushes what defines an Echo.


EDIT: Oh, and a different Final Smash for obvious reasons.

 

[CannonStreak]

Anyway, my comment about Dixie in Brawl, assumptions and all, were mainly made to show support and agreement for superprincess ' post about Dixie not working as an echo. I do think Dixie can't work that way. I mean, she has the banana hair that makes her able to float and all, and her bubblegum gun should be different enough from Diddy's Peanut Popgun.

I just can't see her echoing Diddy.

 

[Louie G.]

There is nothing Diddy can do that Dixie cannot imitate as they have the same exact frame with the only difference being the lack of tail....which doesn't matter because Diddy doesn't use it in Smash anymore.

I don't really have any firm opinion on the Dixie debate (at the end of the day both options are technically feasible) but I do remember when we first noticed this and a bunch of people jumped to speculating whether or not this was done to align him closer with Dixie Kong, and that she would be an echo fighter.

Frankly I'm not sure why they got rid of Diddy's tail attack, I like when Smash extends its design philosophy out toward a character's most unique physical traits, but it's a funny coincidence in retrospect.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Frankly I'm not sure why they got rid of Diddy's tail attack

He needed to be nerfed from 4, but that wasn't what made him OP anyway.

 

[superprincess]

Anyone who seriously tries to argue it can't work is deluding themselves.

She can't be Lazy Daisy for sure (nor should anyone), but saying she can't be an Echo period is asinine when we have the likes of Ken and Chrom having notable different attacks from their source.

There is nothing Diddy can do that Dixie cannot imitate as they have the same exact frame with the only difference being the lack of tail....which doesn't matter because Diddy doesn't use it in Smash anymore.

Take Diddy's moveset and then:

-make the running speed slightly lower (just like how is slightly faster)
-make her Helicopter Spin for a Dash Attack just like DK's roll and Diddy's cartwheel (just like how again has a number of different neutral attacks with kicks)
-replace the Up B with a move similar to DK's since Spinning Kong was based on Dixie's hovering technique in the first place (just like how has a move like Ike's Aether instead of Roy's Blazer)
-give her DK's Cargo Throw for heavy items using her ponytail.
-swap out peanuts for gumballs for Neutral Special (aesthetic change, but she was straight up given a Gumball Popgun to mimic Diddy in Tropical Freeze)


There. You have Dixie easily with nothing that looks out of place as an Echo that like Ken, pushes what defines an Echo.


EDIT: Oh, and a different Final Smash got obvious reasons.

Ken is the exception, not the rule. He's an echo in name only for obvious reasons. Wanted him right next to Ryu on the CSS, wanted to pad out the echo selection while justifying the concept as a whole, etc.

Also, people overrate how much of a difference Soaring Slash makes from Blazer. Yeah they're different moves but nowhere near as different as Rocktetbarrel Boost VS Spinning Kong. Also cargo throw? It's giving semi clone.

Dixie could be an Isabelle.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Also, people overrate how much of a difference Soaring Slash makes from Blazer.

One is a recovery move, the other sends you straight to the blast zone.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Anyway, my comment about Dixie in Brawl, assumptions and all, were mainly made to show support and agreement for superprincess ' post about Dixie not working as an echo. I do think Dixie can't work that way. I mean, she has the banana hair that makes her able to float and all, and her bubblegum gun should be different enough from Diddy's Peanut Popgun.

I just can't see her echoing Diddy.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

Why would the Gumball Popgun work differently when they both work the exact same in Tropical Freeze?
And even if the moves had different properties, are you not aware that things like and having different arrow properties existing?

And as stated before, giving her DK's Spinning Kong and Cargo Throw is still possible as an Echo because Echoes can have some differences since exact copies like Daisy are the outlier, not the norm.

 

[Momotsuki]

This reminds me of how weird the "echo" vs. obvious-clone-but-not-an-echo divide is. I'm fairly certain it's whether or not the character's model can be rigged to the same skeleton as the base fighter. This is likely why Isabelle wasn't an echo, for example, since her body proportions couldn't be put over Villager's model skeleton. That, and a number of different moves that - and this is just speculation - may have followed the decision for her not being an echo. Likewise, this is why the two Lil' Links aren't echoes of Link nor each other.

"What about Dr. Mario?" I hear you ask. It's kind of absurd but I'm actually fairly certain the reason Dr. Mario is not an echo is... his head mirror. Mario's hat is removable and Doc's head mirror isn't. This sounds completely ridiculous and arbitrary but I'm serious. That, and the megavitamins not going cleanly over the fireballs either.

As such, Dixie couldn't work as an echo because of her ponytail requiring additional bones to be used in her moveset. And let's be real, she'd need to use it in her moveset. A clone or semi-clone could work, but not an echo.

 

[superprincess]

One is a recovery move, the other sends you straight to the blast zone.

Both good out of shield options, both have super armor on startup, startup difference of one frame (9 VS 10), Roy kills earlier off the top but Chrom can easily SD kill at early percent at the bottom.

Now compare Rocktetbarrel Boost to Spinning Kong...

This makes no sense whatsoever.

Why would the Gumball Popgun work differently when they both work the exact same in Tropical Freeze?
And even if the moves had different properties, are you not aware that things like and having different arrow properties existing?

And as stated before, giving her DK's Spinning Kong and Cargo Throw is still possible as an Echo because Echoes can have some differences since exact copies like Daisy are the outlier, not the norm.

Nope. Echoes with outright different moves are the outlier, at only two: Chrom and Ken are the only ones. Echoes with mechanical differences but the same moves are still at a measly two: Lucina and Dark Pit. The functionally almost identical are the majority at three: Daisy, Richter Dark Samus.

 

[CannonStreak]

This makes no sense whatsoever.

Why would the Gumball Popgun work differently when they both work the exact same in Tropical Freeze?
And even if the moves had different properties, are you not aware that things like and having different arrow properties existing?

And as stated before, giving her DK's Spinning Kong and Cargo Throw is still possible as an Echo because Echoes can have some differences since exact copies like Daisy are the outlier, not the norm.

What I was saying is that I could imagine her bubblegums bouncing as opposed to Diddy's peanuts, even if it did not happen in Tropical Freeze.

But that was just one reason. I can see Luigi being more of a Luigi-ish clone than an echo, or even an Isabelle like superprincess said. I can see her have some, no no! A lot of her own standard attacks and even throws with her hair. As for the Spinning Kong and Cargo Throw, I might see the Cargo Throw, but the Spinning Kong?

You are just thinking she should be a clone by way too much, or are trying to find ways for her to be an echo.

Plus, Daisy and Peach, Dark Samus and Samus, those kinds of characters have many similarities. Diddy and Dixie, not so much.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

So now we're getting into old Brawl arguments on Ike being a "clone" of Marth and counting Aether as a derivative of Dolphin Slash.

I'm ****ing done.

 

[Gorgonzales]

All of you are wrong and our next DK rep is going to inexplicably be Lanky Kong. You heard it here first.

 

[Momotsuki]

All of you are wrong and our next DK rep is going to inexplicably be Lanky Kong. You heard it here first.

WALNUTS PEANUTS PINEAPPLE SMELLS
GRAPES MELONS ORANGES-
[Dreadful silence.]
AW YEAH!

 

[superprincess]

So now we're getting into old Brawl arguments on Ike being a "clone" of Marth and counting Aether as a derivative of Dolphin Slash.

I'm ****ing done.

... You're overreacting.

I never compared Ike to Marth or Aether to Dolphin Slash. I like you but man this is a reach, and you're putting words into my mouth.

Maybe I worded things bad but what I meant to say is Blazer VS Soaring Slash is much less of a difference than Spinning Kong VS Rocketbarrel Boost. That's all.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

All of you are wrong and our next DK rep is going to inexplicably be Lanky Kong. You heard it here first.

HE

 

[Momotsuki]

They would never add Banjo & Kazooie to Smash. I mean, they'd just be a clone of Duck Hunt!

 

[Noipoi]

All of you are wrong and our next DK rep is going to inexplicably be Lanky Kong. You heard it here first.

HE HAS NO STYLE
HE HAS NO GRACE
THIS KONG’S GONNA SLAP YOUR FACE

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I just think that Nintendo needs to find DK a consistent studio.

They don't hate DKC. DK and friends just need a Rare or Retro who can work with him consistently.

 

[Momotsuki]

I just think that Nintendo needs to find DK a consistent studio.

They don't have DKC. DK and friends just need a Rare or Retro who can work with him consistently.

I wouldn't even mind EAD taking him for another spin. Jungle Beat is a banger.
Get it? Banger? Like - like the bongo- yeah, sorry.

 

[superprincess]

They would never add Banjo & Kazooie to Smash. I mean, they'd just be a clone of Duck Hunt!

It's funny how easily this joke can be twisted around.

Daisy would never be a clone of Peach, she never glided through the air or plucked vegetables from the ground!

Also remember when everyone thought Chrom would be an Ike clone instead of Roy?

 

[7NATOR]

I'll say on Dixie, I think because of the Franchise she comes from and the roles she has played in past, She's always going to have a chance at getting into the roster eventually

I'll also say that I couldn't see Dark Samus being a priority over Dixie if Dixie was meant to be an echo, so I think the fact that she wasn't made an echo I think showcases that's not going to be her fate

Now for whether she actually gets in, I think if that rumor of a New Donkey Kong game comes to fruition, the chances become higher, because at least shows the franchise is not dormant. I think she's more likely than some other (Nintendo) characters I see mentioned

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Anyone who seriously tries to argue it can't work is deluding themselves.

She can't be Lazy Daisy for sure (nor should anyone), but saying she can't be an Echo period is asinine when we have the likes of Ken and Chrom having notable different attacks from their source.

There is nothing Diddy can do that Dixie cannot imitate as they have the same exact frame with the only difference being the lack of tail....which doesn't matter because Diddy doesn't use it in Smash anymore.

Take Diddy's moveset and then:

-make the running speed slightly lower (just like how is slightly faster)
-make her Helicopter Spin for a Dash Attack just like DK's roll and Diddy's cartwheel (just like how again has a number of different neutral attacks with kicks)
-replace the Up B with a move similar to DK's since Spinning Kong was based on Dixie's hovering technique in the first place (just like how has a move like Ike's Aether instead of Roy's Blazer)
-give her DK's Cargo Throw for heavy items using her ponytail.
-swap out peanuts for gumballs for Neutral Special (aesthetic change, but she was straight up given a Gumball Popgun to mimic Diddy in Tropical Freeze)


There. You have Dixie easily with nothing that looks out of place as an Echo that like Ken, pushes what defines an Echo.


EDIT: Oh, and a different Final Smash got obvious reasons.

I do think this is pretty much the minimum needed for Dixie. I say pretty much because

Diddy does in fact still use his tail for his edge attack and Dixie would need a different one, and as far as I’m concerned different edge attack equals ineligible for echo fighter status

 

[Momotsuki]

I think it'd be cool if Dry Bowser was an echo, and along with some attribute changes (generally just being lighter, not having tough guy, but having better aerial drift) and a bone-throw side special, he had pre-Smash 4 Bowser's horrible dash "animation." I love legacy weirdness like that and echoes/clones are good places to have some of it.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I do think this is pretty much the minimum needed for Dixie. I say pretty much because View attachment 387961
Diddy does in fact still use his tail for his edge attack and Dixie would need a different one, and as far as I’m concerned different edge attack equals ineligible for echo fighter status

God echo fighter criteria is such a poorly-defined mess, I'm gonna get a headache if we keep talking about this. It really feels like a short-term solution the Smash team came up with to shut up the people who complain about clones, but now in the long term we're all up in arms about terminology regarding clones, echo fighters, who should be one vs who shouldn't, etcetera. It almost makes me hope they retcon the term entirely.

 

[superprincess]

I think it'd be cool if Dry Bowser was an echo, and along with some attribute changes (generally just being lighter, not having tough guy, but having better aerial drift) and a bone-throw side special, he had pre-Smash 4 Bowser's horrible dash "animation." I love legacy weirdness like that and echoes/clones are good places to have some of it.

I wish he happened in Ultimate Dry Bowser has been slowly fading from the Mario brand, so I don't see it happening in Smash 6.

 

[ninjahmos]

It'd probably never happen, but I think it'd be pretty cool if we got some Dance Dance Revolution content for Smash. I think the closest we'd get would be a stage resembling one of the arcade machines and only the Konami Original songs.

 

[superprincess]

It'd probably never happen, but I think it'd be pretty cool if we got some Dance Dance Revolution content for Smash. I think the closest we'd get would be a stage resembling one of the arcade machines and only the Konami Original songs.

Waluigi will he playable in Smash 6, don't worry.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Oh yeah cool I'd totally love daisy with an infinite ladder combo off a single up tilt into 20 up airs with kind of mechanic.

...

...Well I didn't say I'd make her moves jump cancelable. You definitely would have to make sure not to give her a ladder up air, though I don't think she currently has one, so it'd probably be fine? I'd have to see it in practice.

 

[DarthEnderX]

No it wouldn't. They have to relicense every single bit of content featured.

And you think Smash 6 wouldn't have an equal amount of all new licensed content that would cost at least as much?

I’m not saying an Ultimate DX wouldn’t sell, but it wouldn’t do MK8 DX numbers.

Of course it wouldn't. Smash doesn't sell as well as Mario Kart.

ooh that’s a good clip to respond to things with, thanks for posting

Personally, I prefer the ol'

I don't care about Dixie but let's be honest, she can't really work as an echo. She'd need to hover and grab things with her ponytail. It's too big of a feature on her character model to ignore.

There's no more of a difference between Diddy and Dixie than there is from Chrom and Roy.

Now compare Rocktetbarrel Boost to Spinning Kong...

Compare Blazer to Soaring Slash.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Also remember when everyone thought Chrom would be an Ike clone instead of Roy?

Hilariously, "everyone" included Sakurai himself.

Of course it wouldn't. Smash doesn't sell as well as Mario Kart.

Very little, if anything, sells as well as Mario Kart for that matter.

 

[Louie G.]

God echo fighter criteria is such a poorly-defined mess, I'm gonna get a headache if we keep talking about this. It really feels like a short-term solution the Smash team came up with to shut up the people who complain about clones, but now in the long term we're all up in arms about terminology regarding clones, echo fighters, who should be one vs who shouldn't, etcetera. It almost makes me hope they retcon the term entirely.

I'm fine with it, because I think it's clear it ought to just be taken with a grain of salt as a loose descriptor for derivative and occasionally last minute additions. It also generally made more people okay with clones, and it's funny / sad this is what it took to get people to understand they aren't full characters but it's for the greater good of shutting people up. I think the furthest I'd go to say I'm frustrated with the label is that I don't think Ken should be an echo fighter, and I try not to consider him as such when weighing out development time and whatnot.

Having a character with properties that different does muddle the pool, give people false impressions of what to expect if these liberties won't be extended to any other character with the label. I respect and understand that it's done under a specific condition, just to play into his role as the original clone, but yeah. Perhaps if more echo fighters are added next time and clearly planned from early on in development like he was, they may see further distinction. There's a clear difference between Ken, this character with unique stats and a portion of a CG animated trailer, and Daisy / Dark Samus / Chrom with their small showcases and near identical translation of weight, speed, and most attack animations.

I also have to wonder if say, Daisy is differentiated into a semiclone like Falco's Brawl transition if her echo fighter label is to be respected or if characters will "graduate" from the role. Or if they'll even bother to make the distinction next time, assuming the numerical system won't be in place?

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Keep in mind over half a billion is being invested into Super Nintendo World, and the DK section is said to be 70% the size of Mario's. It may not be a game, but that would be more money invested into something DK than a new game would need.

I personally find it very difficult to get excited about a park I'll most likely never visit in my lifetime. Though yeah, there's the park, the Lego set and the Mario movie... But DKC is a videogame series.