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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Gengar84

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well lying to gamers is pretty low on the list if things i find obnoxious that game devs can do. after all that's basically what a marketing department is. but i do think people have had unrealistic expectations of pokemon as well. all those people hoping for pokemon games like botw not realizing that the pokemon team isn't the same as the zelda team and while it may make more money it is also spending a lot of that money of far more merchandise than an average game franchise. by all accounts GF isn't actually a triple A development studio and the devs, the fans and the corporate overlords at TPC all need to realise this if we want the games to improve
That would make a lot more sense if Pokémon wasn’t as profitable as it is. They should have more than enough money to hire a bigger and more experienced team to make the games as good as they can be. The problem is that there’s no incentive to do that because the games already sell like crazy. Sometimes it does feel like they do the bare minimum possible for the games to still sell without putting in the extra time or resources needed to make them truly great. Again, I still enjoy playing them but it’s always in my mind how much better they could be.
 

DarthEnderX

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but i do think people have had unrealistic expectations of pokemon as well. all those people hoping for pokemon games like botw not realizing that the pokemon team isn't the same as the zelda team and while it may make more money it is also spending a lot of that money of far more merchandise than an average game franchise. by all accounts GF isn't actually a triple A development studio and the devs
People don't have unrealistic expectations. People expect that the most profitable goddamn video game franchise in the world to have a AAA dev studio behind it.

You're right that the Pokemon team is not the Zelda team. It's just a franchise that makes 10x what Zelda makes. So why ISN'T it on the same level as the Zelda team? It's lunacy.
 

fogbadge

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That would make a lot more sense if Pokémon wasn’t as profitable as it is. They should have more than enough money to hire a bigger and more experienced team to make the games as good as they can be. The problem is that there’s no incentive to do that because the games already sell like crazy. Sometimes it does feel like they do the bare minimum possible for the games to still sell without putting in the extra time or resources needed to make them truly great. Again, I still enjoy playing them but it’s always in my mind how much better they could be.
Like I said they may make bucket loads of cash but they’ve got more things they’re funding than just Game Freak. Merchandise, the anime, all those mobile games. There’s tons of stuff. All the money in the world can’t fix every problem they have especially when we have no idea how much of it is left for the main series dev team. Who let’s not forget are often working on multiple games at once. It’s hard to think all that money will solve anything when in the first place we have no idea if GF are given so we can’t know if they can afford an expansion. The problem seems to boil down to that somebody somewhere in charge of this franchise is dump enough to think that developing a switch game is no different than developing a GBA game

Pokemon has problems, but laziness isn’t one of them
 
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DarthEnderX

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Merchandise, the anime, all those mobile games.
Those things don't cost money, they make money.

All the money in the world can’t fix every problem they have especially when we have no idea how much of it is left for the main series dev team. Who let’s not forget are often working on multiple games at once.
You know what really helps with that? Using all the money in the world to hire more people.
 
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Stratos

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If I've noticed correctly over the years, every new game in the Super Smash Bros. series introduces as newcomer a Pokémon from the last generation of the Pokémon franchise to date.
 

Swamp Sensei

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If I've noticed correctly over the years, every new game in the Super Smash Bros. series introduces as newcomer a Pokémon from the last generation of the Pokémon franchise to date.
You're just now noticing this ?
 

Garteam

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...I actually kind of like Meowscarda. At the very least, I do think holding it against Meowscarda for not being the most conceptually interesting option theoretically possible is a bit unreasonable. Sakurai's relationship with the TPC is different than his relationship with Nintendo. He doesn't seem to have the luxury of being able to pick random curveballs like R.O.B or Piranha Plant. Smash will always consist of Pokemon that TPC is interested in as a product (Jiggs is a grandfathered-in exception that would have fit at the time), it will always be Pokemon that have prominent in-game roles, prominent anime roles, lots of merchandise, etc. Could Great Tusks or Tinkaton be more interesting than Meowscarda or Quaquavel? Sure, but Great Tusks and Tinkaton don't really have any path to entry into Smash and I don't think laying that at the feet of Meowscarda or Quaquavel is particularly fair.

I think a lot of Meowscarda's appeal is that it is a Pokemon with a realistic chance of inclusion that is very easy to imagine in Smash. It's fast, oriented towards physical offense at the cost of defense, and attacks using claw swipes, plant manipulation, and status moves like Leech Seed and Trick. Those gameplay features all sound very at home on a Smash character. I also know "lol grass type starter" is memed on a lot, but there's a reason it's been a complaint for almost a decade now. Agrokinesis has a lot of potential for fun scenarios, but it's still unrepresented in Smash beyond Ivysaur and Piranha Plant. The odds of us getting such a character outside of a Pokemon is relatively low, so grass-type starters tend to attract genuine positive attention beyond just filling out a quota with Greninja and Charizard/Incineroar.
 

Stratos

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You're just now noticing this ?
No, I've noticed it years ago, just by what I'm writing I mean that the most likely in the new game of Super Smash Bros. series will have a Pokémon from generation 10 as a newcomer, although I know it's something I don't need to mention.
 
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Gengar84

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...I actually kind of like Meowscarda. At the very least, I do think holding it against Meowscarda for not being the most conceptually interesting option theoretically possible is a bit unreasonable. Sakurai's relationship with the TPC is different than his relationship with Nintendo. He doesn't seem to have the luxury of being able to pick random curveballs like R.O.B or Piranha Plant. Smash will always consist of Pokemon that TPC is interested in as a product (Jiggs is a grandfathered-in exception that would have fit at the time), it will always be Pokemon that have prominent in-game roles, prominent anime roles, lots of merchandise, etc. Could Great Tusks or Tinkaton be more interesting than Meowscarda or Quaquavel? Sure, but Great Tusks and Tinkaton don't really have any path to entry into Smash and I don't think laying that at the feet of Meowscarda or Quaquavel is particularly fair.

I think a lot of Meowscarda's appeal is that it is a Pokemon with a realistic chance of inclusion that is very easy to imagine in Smash. It's fast, oriented towards physical offense at the cost of defense, and attacks using claw swipes, plant manipulation, and status moves like Leech Seed and Trick. Those gameplay features all sound very at home on a Smash character. I also know "lol grass type starter" is memed on a lot, but there's a reason it's been a complaint for almost a decade now. Agrokinesis has a lot of potential for fun scenarios, but it's still unrepresented in Smash beyond Ivysaur and Piranha Plant. The odds of us getting such a character outside of a Pokemon is relatively low, so grass-type starters tend to attract genuine positive attention beyond just filling out a quota with Greninja and Charizard/Incineroar.
I like Meowscarada too. It just isn’t my favorite Pokémon from the gen. We did also just get a Dark type cat starter in Ultimate even if they would play very differently. I’d be happy enough with Meowscarada but I’m rooting for Ceruledge, Great Tusk, or Lokix as far as Gen 9 reps go.
 

superprincess

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i see you like to talk with confidence about things you don't know much about. don't call a game lazy especially when you've never played it for yourself and when it's cause twitter said so
Just because I haven't played it doesn't mean I can't possibly know the game has flaws. I bet you didn't play Mario Tennis Ultra Smash but you and I both know that the game is unfinished.

I know countless people irl who own and have played the Switch's mainline Pokemon games and pretty much all agree that some areas of the games are blatantly unfinished and/or unpolished, rushed, glitchy, you name it.

I'm not saying y'all have to agree but it's a common thing I've noticed. I've watched people play and I happen to agree, and I also doubt my opinion would change if I did play them because Pokemon gameplay just hasn't interested me ... ever. But again, that's my opinion. That was crystal clear from my post, as I only used first person pronouns. I couldn't find it in me to support the games. If you can, bravo.
 

fogbadge

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Just because I haven't played it doesn't mean I can't possibly know the game has flaws. I bet you didn't play Mario Tennis Ultra Smash but you and I both know that the game is unfinished.

I know countless people irl who own and have played the Switch's mainline Pokemon games and pretty much all agree that some areas of the games are blatantly unfinished and/or unpolished, rushed, glitchy, you name it.

I'm not saying y'all have to agree but it's a common thing I've noticed. I've watched people play and I happen to agree, and I also doubt my opinion would change if I did play them because Pokemon gameplay just hasn't interested me ... ever. But again, that's my opinion. That was crystal clear from my post, as I only used first person pronouns. I couldn't find it in me to support the games. If you can, bravo.
actually I didn’t know anything about Mario tennis. I didn’t care

and a game being unfinished doesn’t automatically make the devs lazy. If you go over my conversation with gengar you’ll find my stance on the matter
 

Gengar84

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actually I didn’t know anything about Mario tennis. I didn’t care

and a game being unfinished doesn’t automatically make the devs lazy. If you go over my conversation with gengar you’ll find my stance on the matter
I do believe that the regular low level employees are doing their best to make as good a game as they can. It’s just the higher ups that seem to be pushing the series in the wrong direction just to make as much money as possible for as little development. I’m sure there are lots of passionate people at GameFreak that truly care about what they’re making but they don’t really have the experience or resources to live up to the standards of modern games. I think that is something that could be alleviated by hiring more people with relevant experience or even having an outside studio assist with the development. Unfortunately, as long as the games continue to sell as well as they do, they have no reason to change or improve. I admit that I’m part of the problem because I keep buying the mainline games despite their issues.

This problem definitely isn’t exclusive to Pokemon or GameFreak though. It seems to be a trend for corporations as a whole. Another big example is Hasboro and what they’re doing with Magic: the Gathering or even Boeing with their airplanes. Companies seem to be cutting more and more corners to chase a profit and the quality of the product suffers as a result.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Hiring more people won't alleviate it alone. Time is still necessary, as bugs show up quite often. Due to constant crunch time, just adding more people won't be able to make things work that much better. You can only do so much.

A huge issue is the necessity of getting things done at a specific time too. Due to too much merchandise, the anime, side games, etc. all happening close to each other. It's a marketing strategy to keep things pumping at a specific rate. Unfortunately, that also means time is highly limited to meet this strategy.

It sucks, but it's really difficult to fix(and as I said, hiring more people won't fix it specifically). Adding more is definitely a good idea, though.
 

Gengar84

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Hiring more people won't alleviate it alone. Time is still necessary, as bugs show up quite often. Due to constant crunch time, just adding more people won't be able to make things work that much better. You can only do so much.

A huge issue is the necessity of getting things done at a specific time too. Due to too much merchandise, the anime, side games, etc. all happening close to each other. It's a marketing strategy to keep things pumping at a specific rate. Unfortunately, that also means time is highly limited to meet this strategy.

It sucks, but it's really difficult to fix(and as I said, hiring more people won't fix it specifically). Adding more is definitely a good idea, though.
One solution is to outsource all the spinoff games like Legends Arceus so the main team can focus exclusively on the core series. We could also drop the third versions of each game so all they had to worry about is one mainline entry every four or so years. Adding to the team could help with that too. The time in between could be filled by more games like Colliseum or XD from other developers. Bringing back a Stadium style game could work too.
 

fogbadge

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I do believe that the regular low level employees are doing their best to make as good a game as they can. It’s just the higher ups that seem to be pushing the series in the wrong direction just to make as much money as possible for as little development. I’m sure there are lots of passionate people at GameFreak that truly care about what they’re making but they don’t really have the experience or resources to live up to the standards of modern games. I think that is something that could be alleviated by hiring more people with relevant experience or even having an outside studio assist with the development. Unfortunately, as long as the games continue to sell as well as they do, they have no reason to change or improve. I admit that I’m part of the problem because I keep buying the mainline games despite their issues.

This problem definitely isn’t exclusive to Pokemon or GameFreak though. It seems to be a trend for corporations as a whole. Another big example is Hasboro and what they’re doing with Magic: the Gathering or even Boeing with their airplanes. Companies seem to be cutting more and more corners to chase a profit and the quality of the product suffers as a result.
that is kinda what I’ve been saying. some corporate git is getting things twisted to try and make money as quickly as possible. same problem WB games has.

and I agree with verde hiring more people isn’t gonna fix things as easily, they do need more time.

And I’m as much of the problem as you are gengar.
 

Gengar84

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Let’s talk about something a bit more positive.

If BWD got in but a second Kirby newcomer got in alongside him, who would you pick? For me, it’s be Magolor.
I’m going to be biased and say Bugzzy. I know it’s not very likely but I’ve always really loved its design and moveset in the Kirby games. We did get Piranha Plant so I suppose it’s not completely impossible.
 
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Among Waddle Dees

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Let’s talk about something a bit more positive.

If BWD got in but a second Kirby newcomer got in alongside him, who would you pick? For me, it’s be Magolor.
I've mentioned before that Adeleine needs a higher chance than she has.

Magolor and Gooey are also good options.
 

DarthEnderX

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Ah yes, because there’s no way manufacturers, mobile developers, and animators get paid for their work, right?
The amount they make from those products greatly exceeds the amount they spend on manufacturers, mobile developers, and animators.

Ergo, those things MAKE money, they don't COST money. Which is, ya know, the whole reason WHY they DO them.

Hiring more people won't alleviate it alone. Time is still necessary, as bugs show up quite often. Due to constant crunch time, just adding more people won't be able to make things work that much better. You can only do so much.
Yes. You CAN only do so much. But you can do more than the absolute minimum. Which is all GF/TPC ever does.

We could also drop the third versions of each game so all they had to worry about is one mainline entry every four or so years.
I would kill for them to stop doing the 2ND version of each game. It doesn't really do anything to promote player interaction anymore in the digital age. And all it really does is serve as an expensive tax and pointless timesink for completionists.
 
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RileyXY1

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Pokémon has pretty much become a victim of its own success. GF knows that they can get away with doing the bare minimum because they know it's gonna sell 10s of millions of copies regardless. And considering how glitchy SV are, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a Pokémon game in the future that is straight up unplayable due to the worst glitches you can imagine.
 

chocolatejr9

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Let’s talk about something a bit more positive.

If BWD got in but a second Kirby newcomer got in alongside him, who would you pick? For me, it’s be Magolor.
I don't care if it'll never happen, Stone Kirby is my favorite transformation in the series, so I'll be the one to advocate for Rocky.
 

fogbadge

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Pokémon has pretty much become a victim of its own success. GF knows that they can get away with doing the bare minimum because they know it's gonna sell 10s of millions of copies regardless. And considering how glitchy SV are, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a Pokémon game in the future that is straight up unplayable due to the worst glitches you can imagine.
thank you captain cynicism for continuing to make claims over things you don’t understand
 

Noipoi

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After Scarlet and Violet's tumultuous release, despite the financial success, something has to give. I think they've realized they can't release another game in that state again.

Now I'm not saying they're gonna take 5-6 years to make games all of a sudden, as cool as that would be. But I do think they'll take measures from here on out to ensure the games aren't so rushed anymore. Hell, they're already starting.

And I realize by having an even slightly positive outlook on Pocket Monsters I'm evoking the wrath of the Nintenzone: Next Smash-Speculation & Discussion Thread, but screw it. Legends Arceus was enough to show me this series could still cook, and I'm ecstatic that we're continuing down that path. Nothing's gonna topple my optimism for the future of this franchise :nifty:

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