Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[GoldenYuiitusin]

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I feel ****ing old....

 

[DarthEnderX]

This objectively makes no sense. "Squirtle" and "Ivysaur" in the context of Smash are their own entities that are tied to certain moves and attributes.

There's no reason they'd need different movesets. In Pokemon, any move that Squirtle can use, Blastoise can also use. And Blastoise are faster than Squirtles, not slower. Same with Venusaur and Ivysaur.

The whole "Venusaur and Blastoise are too fat to move like Ivysaur and Squirtle" sentiment sounds like non-Pokemon fans trying to dictate their moveset based solely on their appearance. Which has nothing to do with how those Pokemon actually work in the games.


Besides, if characters in Smash really were tied to their moves and attributes, that means we'll never get a decloned Ganondorf. And I'll never agree to with that position.

It doesn't matter if you're canonically the same entity as someone else in Smash.

Yes it does. It's 'EveryONE is here' not 'Every moveset with the same attributes is here'.

 

[Stratos]

So, what you're saying is, that compared to Gyromite, it wouldn't- Stack Up?

Sort of like that, but on the other hand I'm thinking of something else that's impossible (in my opinion), for the R.O.B. to get a stage based on both games, i.e. Gyromite and Stack-Up together even though as I wrote it is impossible.

 

[CannonStreak]

There's no reason they'd need different movesets. In Pokemon, any move that Squirtle can use, Blastoise can also use. And Blastoise are faster than Squirtles, not slower. Same with Venusaur and Ivysaur.

The idea that they'd have to change them into slow, lumbering beasts sounds like non-Pokemon fans trying to dictate their moveset based solely on their appearance. Which has nothing to do with how those Pokemon actually work in the games.


Besides, if characters in Smash really were tied to their moves and attributes, that means we'll never get a decloned Ganondorf. And I'll never agree to with that position.

Yes it does. It's 'EveryONE is here' not 'Every moveset with the same attributes is here'.

They still have different attributes from their lesser evolved forms, and they would still be different characters, and with the case of not needing different movesets, they would still be clones.

And if those two are faster than their lesser evolved counterparts, then it still doesn't change anything. In fact, Squirtle and Ivysaur being slower than Blastoise and Venusaur would add to their being clones of one another. (Blastoise with Squirtle and Venusaur with Ivysaur, that is) It just makes it more different.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I kinda just don't want super heavyweight versions of Squirtle and Ivysaur with the addition of larger hitboxes.

Saying this as a K. Rool main, btw.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Let's replace Jigglypuff with Wigglytuff, guys.

Jigglypuff didn't actually get scrapped, they just EVOLVED!

 

[superprincess]

There's no reason they'd need different movesets. In Pokemon, any move that Squirtle can use, Blastoise can also use. And Blastoise are faster than Squirtles, not slower. Same with Venusaur and Ivysaur.

The whole "Venusaur and Blastoise are too fat to move like Ivysaur and Squirtle" sentiment sounds like non-Pokemon fans trying to dictate their moveset based solely on their appearance. Which has nothing to do with how those Pokemon actually work in the games.


Besides, if characters in Smash really were tied to their moves and attributes, that means we'll never get a decloned Ganondorf. And I'll never agree to with that position.

I thought we were over the whole "Stats from their debut game should translate over to Smash!" logic. Yoshi and Rosalina are light and heavy respectively in Mario Kart, but the opposite is true in Smash. Ike is quite fast in Fire Emblem, yet Smash portrays him as slow and burly. Luigi is weaker than Mario in most spinoffs but stronger in Smash, Wario and Bowser are usually sluggish in spinoffs but move quite fast in Smash, and so on and so forth.

Blastoise and Venusaur, by nature of being big and heavy, would have some sort of slowness whether it be movement or frame data. Every heavy in the game has this, from DK all the way to Kazuya.

I mean, your last point is kind of tragic because yes... we never got and probably never will get a fully decloned Ganondorf. Do we really need that? Responses may vary, but at this point the Falcondorf portrayal is more consistent than Ganondorf's portrayal in LOZ itself. People are familiar with and love the playstyle. He's always going to have some semblance of CF, just like Luigi still has clear influences of Mario in his moveset even after 5 installments that deliberately pushed him away from Mario.

Yes it does. It's 'EveryONE is here' not 'Every moveset with the same attributes is here'.

It's technically the latter. If it were everyone, without caring about functions and movesets. Dr. Mario and ZSS would've been cut because they're the same entities as Mario and Samus. What they bring to Smash isn't their unique identity but their moveset. And that's why they're part of EiH.

Also, after Young Link came back practically unchanged from Melee, without even having a single Majora's Mask reference... I'd argue EiH is more about familiarity than anything. And Smash players are familiar with Pokemon Trainer as one character, not some weirdo split up Charizard but also Venusaur and Blastoise who really are the Ivysaur and Squirtle from Brawl/Ultimate but evolved and somehow we're supposed to know that kind of idea.

Let's replace Jigglypuff with Wigglytuff, guys.

Jigglypuff didn't actually get scrapped, they just EVOLVED!

Actually let's add Igglybuff but unironically.

 

[PeridotGX]

There's no reason they'd need different movesets. In Pokemon, any move that Squirtle can use, Blastoise can also use. And Blastoise are faster than Squirtles, not slower. Same with Venusaur and Ivysaur.

The whole "Venusaur and Blastoise are too fat to move like Ivysaur and Squirtle" sentiment sounds like non-Pokemon fans trying to dictate their moveset based solely on their appearance. Which has nothing to do with how those Pokemon actually work in the games.


Besides, if characters in Smash really were tied to their moves and attributes, that means we'll never get a decloned Ganondorf. And I'll never agree to with that position.

Yes it does. It's 'EveryONE is here' not 'Every moveset with the same attributes is here'.

I don't get why you need to evolve them, though. I kinda get Ivysaur, because middle evolutions are the awkward middle stage and all the Saurs have roughly the same body plan, but Squirtle and Blastoise are radically different. It would be like adding Beast Ganon but completely removing Ganondorf.

 

[Schnee117]

Pokemon stats have no bearing on how they are in Smash. Mewtwo has better defence stats than Charizard in Pokemon and yet Mewtwo is one of the lightest characters in the game whilst Charizard is among the heavier characters. And you can't use canon weight as an excuse because Mewtwo is also canonically heavier than Charizard.

You're making a fighting game, you need to balance in that context and leave basic RPG stats at the door.

 

[superprincess]

I don't get why you need to evolve them, though. I kinda get Ivysaur, because middle evolutions are the awkward middle stage and all the Saurs have roughly the same body plan, but Squirtle and Blastoise are radically different. It would be like adding Beast Ganon but completely removing Ganondorf.

We also shouldn't be advocating for the removal of more cute Pokemon. Squirtle and Ivysaur are animated amazingly in SSBU, I wouldn't give that away for Water Bowser and a fatter Ivysaur.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The whole "Venusaur and Blastoise are too fat to move like Ivysaur and Squirtle" sentiment sounds like non-Pokemon fans trying to dictate their moveset based solely on their appearance. Which has nothing to do with how those Pokemon actually work in the games.

You think Venusaur can use vines to be acrobatic?

It's literally my favorite Pokemon. It cannot do the things Ivysaur can do without looking completely wrong.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Actually let's add Igglybuff but unironically.

Why would you want a lighter Jigglypuff that would die to a single uncharged Smash Attack?

 

[cashregister9]

Why would you want a lighter Jigglypuff that would die to a single uncharged Smash Attack?

Because it would be funny

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Because it would be funny

Ok fair enough.

 

[superprincess]

Why would you want a lighter Jigglypuff that would die to a single uncharged Smash Attack?

1) it'd be funny and the first genuine joke character since Melee
2) it's just adorable

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

1) it'd be funny and the first genuine joke character since Melee
2) it's just adorable

So you want to beat up adorable things and send them clear across the horizon.
Got it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

1) it'd be funny and the first genuine joke character since Melee
2) it's just adorable

Igglybuff just pops whenever any attack hits it.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Igglybuff just pops whenever any attack hits it.

Nah, it bounces around like a pinball while playing roblox_oof.wav

 

[NintenRob]

Pokémon is a turned based RPG
smash Bros is a fighting game.



In no way could Blastoise use Squirtles moveset without it looking wrong. Smash Bros doesn't just look at a list of attacks and creates a moveset. It basically always takes into account bodytype and how the character feasibly moves.

Also last I checked, Squirtle doesn't use big ol' jumbo cannons (which Blastoise almost certainly would)

 

[superprincess]

So you want to beat up adorable things and send them clear across the horizon.
Got it.

No, I want to beat people up as the adorable creature. I was one of the 5 people who stuck with Puff in Smash 4, I'll main any version of it no matter how badly it sucks.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

No, I want to beat people up as the adorable creature. I was one of the 5 people who stuck with Puff in Smash 4, I'll main any version of it no matter how badly it sucks.

If it gives me easy wins as I ain't complaining.

 

[Ivander]

All that evolved stuff reminds me of how some people thought the Pikachu we got in Brawl was actually Pichu, but evolved because of Pikachu having a blue goggles alt like what Pichu had in Melee.

 

[ScrubReborn]

I almost always prefer English voice acting as a rule but I really miss Fox’s Melee voice. Marth and Roy were pretty iconic too.

Melee Fox spoke Japanese? I never picked up on that lol.

Melee Star Fox voices were great for sure. But me personally, I'm a Brawl Fox/Falco/Wolf voice guy. Falco especially, they nailed him there.

1) it'd be funny and the first genuine joke character since Melee
2) it's just adorable

This reminds me, do you guys think we'll ever get a legit joke character again (as in a "haha this character sucks" joke), or do y'all think Smash has moved on from that? I'm guessin they're done with jokes since y'know, the devs kinda care about balance now. But I think they should, playing a weakling's fun. Especially if they still have a couple good tools so you still have a route to win with dedication. A good joke character is like art to me.

Like Pichu. If it were up to me? They shoulda kept Pichu as a joke character in Ultimate. I got nothing against the lil rat but but I feel like her actually being useable ruins the joke. It's like Dan Hibiki being good. I wouldn't have minded some improvements, but seein Pichu do half the **** she can do in ultimate... it's not natural. I don't like it. All Pichu mains are lucky I don't run Smash. But if not her, I guess Glass Joe would be cool.

 

[CannonStreak]

Melee Fox spoke Japanese? I never picked up on that lol.

Melee Star Fox voices were great for sure. But me personally, I'm a Brawl Fox/Falco/Wolf voice guy. Falco especially, they nailed him there.



This reminds me, do you guys think we'll ever get a legit joke character again (as in a "haha this character sucks" joke), or do y'all think Smash has moved on from that? I'm guessin they're done with jokes since y'know, the devs kinda care about balance now. But I think they should, playing a weakling's fun. Especially if they still have a couple good tools so you still have a route to win with dedication. A good joke character is like art to me.

Like Pichu. If it were up to me? They shoulda kept Pichu as a joke character in Ultimate. I got nothing against the lil rat but but I feel like her actually being useable ruins the joke. It's like Dan Hibiki being good. I wouldn't have minded some improvements, but seein Pichu do half the **** she can do in ultimate... it's not natural. I don't like it. All Pichu mains are lucky I don't run Smash. But if not her, I guess Glass Joe would be cool.

Agreed on the Brawl voices for Fox/Falco/Wolf. Those were great!

You know, about Falco in Brawl in particular, I remember reading that he sounded like a character from Yu-Gi-Oh. I can't remember the name, though.

 

[Schnee117]

This is really just "Black Knight should be an Ike echo" but packed into a Pokemon skin tbh

 

[Capybara Gaming]

All that evolved stuff reminds me of how some people thought the Pikachu we got in Brawl was actually Pichu, but evolved because of Pikachu having a blue goggles alt like what Pichu had in Melee.

That's a fun easter egg and headcanon, not a half-assed excuse to replace characters.

Blastoise literally does not an cannot move like Squirtle. Venusaur cannot use the vines in the same way Ivysaur does. Characters are more than just themselves, and they're more than just functions. Finding the middle ground to make a character who acts like themselves and functions well is the key. We would not have gotten these fighters if they didn't have the evolution stages theming. Objectively. Charizard you could make a case for being alone in Brawl, but all three were added because they had a unique take on the stance change system.

 

[Perkilator]

Anyway...on the topic of Pokémon:

While I'd be happy to see Meowscarada or Tinkaton, I think people should also give some support to Gholdengo since it's Pokémon #1,000.

In other words, my top 3 choices for Gen 9 reps are as follows:

1. Gholdengo
2. Meowscarada
3. Tinkaton

 

[HyperSomari64]

Pokémon is a turned based RPG

Then You remember moves like Sacred Sword or Sword Dance, then all Pokémon that learnt those attacks are (technically) Sworddudes McJRPGLad.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Melee Fox spoke Japanese? I never picked up on that lol.

They took out voice clips that would've confirmed it in the English version:

Super Smash Bros. Melee/Unused Audio - The Cutting Room Floor

tcrf.net

But stuff like "Torya!", which is a Japanese grunting sound, was left in.

 

[Laniv]

This reminds me, do you guys think we'll ever get a legit joke character again (as in a "haha this character sucks" joke), or do y'all think Smash has moved on from that? I'm guessin they're done with jokes since y'know, the devs kinda care about balance now. But I think they should, playing a weakling's fun. Especially if they still have a couple good tools so you still have a route to win with dedication. A good joke character is like art to me.

The world needs Magikarp

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Anyway...on the topic of Pokémon:

In other words, my top 3 choices for Gen 9 reps are as follows:

1. Gholdengo
2. Meowscarada
3. Tinkaton

Not gonna stop you from supporting Gholdengo for your own reasons, but me, personally? I honestly couldn't give two ****s about it being "Pokémon #1000" since that means absolutely nothing to me.

Any Pokémon I support, I support because I like them or because I think they'd be interesting of a concept, and unfortunately, Gholdengo doesn't tick either of those boxes for me. Neither does the overrated Meowscarada either, to be fair.

 

[Gengar84]

Anyway...on the topic of Pokémon:

In other words, my top 3 choices for Gen 9 reps are as follows:

1. Gholdengo
2. Meowscarada
3. Tinkaton

Mine would be:

1. Ceruledge
2. Lokix
3. Great Tusk

Honorable mentions go to Koraidon, Miraidon, and Annihalape.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I thought we were over the whole "Stats from their debut game should translate over to Smash!" logic.

That depends what "logic" you're trying to replace it with. "Turtle is fat, so turtle is slow" is not better logic.

The argument made against being slavish to the source game is when it comes at the expense of a character playing well. Not, "This doesn't fit my casual interpretation of this character based on it's appearance."

I don't get why you need to evolve them, though.

Because I don't like transformations. And without the transformation aspect, there's no reason to stick to 1st or 2nd form. Especially when Blastoise's third form has all the cool water cannon stuff.

There's a reason we didn't get Froakie or Litten.

You think Venusaur can use vines to be acrobatic?

It's literally my favorite Pokemon. It cannot do the things Ivysaur can do without looking completely wrong.

I mean, it probably WOULD look wrong. But it literally CAN do anything an Ivysaur can do. That's how Pokemon work. Evolution is additive, not subtractive.

You're making a fighting game, you need to balance in that context and leave basic RPG stats at the door.

I agree. But what they're suggesting isn't balancing for a context of a fighting game, it's balancing around a character's appearance.

Their argument is "Well, if you make him big, he also has to be slow, because now he looks like he should be slow" And that's wrong from both a fighting gameplay standpoint AND a source material standpoint.

We also shouldn't be advocating for the removal of more cute Pokemon.

Lol. You're the reason I removed them. You're the one that said "If they aren't transformations anymore, what's the point of them being their unevolved forms?" and I was like, "Hey...you're right!"

 

[Guynamednelson]

Anyway...on the topic of Pokémon:

In other words, my top 3 choices for Gen 9 reps are as follows:

1. Gholdengo
2. Meowscarada
3. Tinkaton

1. Penny but only as an excuse to make Eevee playable
2. um
3. ummmmmmmmmm

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I just want the closest thing to Godzilla I'd ever get in Smash.

I'd also gladly take Anihilape or Great Tusks, or even (in spite of people that like to obnoxiously seethe over Starters) Quaquaval.
The latter isn't even among my favorites and yet it's a perfect fit with a theme not yet present (dance fighter) that I can just picture.

 

[superprincess]

Guess we should rally behind Honey Queen for officially being the 30th Mario Kart character. Pretty big achievement for a series that only started with 8, no?

 

[Schnee117]

I agree. But what they're suggesting isn't balancing for a context of a fighting game, it's balancing around a character's appearance.

Balancing around appearance is part of balancing for a fighting game.

Guess we should rally behind Honey Queen for officially being the 30th Mario Kart character. Pretty big achievement for a series that only started with 8, no?

No because they didn't make a big deal out of her. This is ignoring that Game Freak and TPC made a big deal out of Gholdengo being Pokemon 1000 itself. It's not a reason to support it like any dishonest person might try to postulate, it's just an argument in it's favour.

 

[FazDude]

My top pick for Gen 9 is Spidops-

okay okay great tusks would be really cool too

 

[superprincess]

My top pick for Gen 9 is Spidops-

okay okay great tusks would be really cool too

Haven't played the game because I refuse to play Pokemon but if I had to choose one it'd be Spidops so hi, you're not alone.

No because they didn't make a big deal out of her. This is ignoring that Game Freak and TPC made a big deal out of Gholdengo being Pokemon 1000 itself. It's not a reason to support it like any dishonest person might try to postulate, it's just an argument in it's favour.

I admit my reply was sarcastic and not meant to be taken seriously but I genuinely don't understand why being number 1000 would matter when other significant numbers of Pokemon didn't get preferential treatment either

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Flamigo would also be pretty funny too, admittedly.