Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Hadokeyblade]

Does Zelda even have a strict timeline anymore? I feel like BotW shattered it.

Unified timeline literally makes no sense.

I think the idea is that it's the LEGEND of Zelda, you know like from the POV of the BOTW cast these things happened so long ago that the details on how they fit together are kinda lost?

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I can easily imagine uses for Recall, Ascend and Ultrahand but Fuse honestly stumps me. Is there something you have in mind for it? I just don't see how it can be implemented properly given how items operate in Smash. If it were on Link and he was basically just gluing stuff to the master sword to increase range or add projectiles to his normal swings I can kind of see that work, but how would Rauru make use of it?

Only thing I can think of is if he has a means of summoning Zonai devices and basically having the player make some DIY stage hazards. I do think something like that sounds interesting, but I don't know how well it'd work in practice. Are the devices you get random? Are normal items affected? You have to make a bunch of different combinations for everything. How does the actual building process work?

Fuse I think would work exactly the way you described it, it feels pretty fun and accurate to TotK.
I do think that extending the range of every single move might be a little overkill, as Link uses a sword for most of his attacks. Imagine what would happen if he fuses a Hammer to the Master Sword lol, but Rauru could use a sword for just a few select moves that would also be the ones to make use of Fuse. (I can't remember if Rauru uses a sword at any point during TotK to be honest, but zonai swords exist so maybe it wouldn't be that big of a stretch)
Zonai devices in my mind would work more or less like the Inkling's weapons, where he summons one for some move and then it disappears. Like up smash could be the flamethrower, and stuff like that, and those wouldn't benefit from Fuse.

Okay, while I'm here, here's how I see him working.
Neutral B - Fuse: attach the item you have in your hand to Rauru's sword. That only affects some moves, like I guess fsmash, ftilt, fair.
Side B - Ultrahand: a mix between Confusion and Gravitational Pull. It has some decent range and using it on an item lets you put it in your hands (so you can instantly Fuse it). Maybe you could also grab stuff like Samus's Charge Shot and attach it to your sword lol, that sounds insane.
Up B - Ascend: just a tiny little jump like Witch Twist but with no hitbox, unless of course you hit a platform.
Down B - Recall: basically a counter, you'd make the animation of the attack you countered play in reverse, leaving the opponent open. Use it on projectiles to make them go backwards (while they're still facing frontwards though).
Final smash: that Kamehameha thing he uses against the Moldugas in a cutscene.
Normal attacks would be a mix of sword moves (that make use of Fuse), zonai devices and some punch/kicks for the faster moves.

Something like this. He'd probably be broken but the TotK powers applied to Smash just sound fun. I dunno, I think they fit the kind of chaos that Smash usually thrives in very well.

 

[fogbadge]

The Oracle games are weird because an article in 64 Dream mentions Link having recently defeated Agahnim and Ganon, but I believe Zelda talks to him like she doesn't already know him when she appears in those games. I think Hyrule Historia says the Oracle games may or may not have the same Link as ALttP/LA.

ALttP and LA are my favorite part of the Zelda series (really glad Zelda represents it in Ultimate), so I wanna believe they're part of it too, but it's a bit awkward.

that's where they were placed in the timeline at first but then a later version seems to have moved them to after LA.

No actually, I got really tired of it right before the final boss fight. Wanted to go back and beat it but I always find something better to do. You can go ahead and spoil it tbh I'm not really invested in it anymore.

alright then mineru is the 5th sage and like the others will follow you around for as long as you want.

 

[Perkilator]

I can easily imagine uses for Recall, Ascend and Ultrahand but Fuse honestly stumps me. Is there something you have in mind for it? I just don't see how it can be implemented properly given how items operate in Smash. If it were on Link and he was basically just gluing stuff to the master sword to increase range or add projectiles to his normal swings I can kind of see that work, but how would Rauru make use of it?

Only thing I can think of is if he has a means of summoning Zonai devices and basically having the player make some DIY stage hazards. I do think something like that sounds interesting, but I don't know how well it'd work in practice. Are the devices you get random? Are normal items affected? You have to make a bunch of different combinations for everything. How does the actual building process work?

Delzethin's take describes Fuse as "merge a handful of Zonai devices to Rauru's sword, and items only affect the power of sword-based attacks (unless you Fuse with an explosive item)"

 

[Gengar84]

I haven’t been following the entire discussion or watched Delzethin’s video because I still haven’t completed TotK but have any ideas been brought up how fuse would work in Smash if you weren’t playing with items on? I love the idea of fusing items but I would want a completely useless special if you were playing without items.

 

[superprincess]

Did you get to the part where Mineru comes back as a robot and becomes your 5th ghost party member?

Oh yeah that. We were talking about Zonais' screen time so it didn't really come to mind because it's really just a construct inhabited by Mineru's spirit.

Aside from not treat Pokemon Trainer and Pyra/Mythra as multiple characters, I don't like Impa and Octoling as Echos for Sheik and Inkling nor do I think Tom Nook has enough stuff to justify being an unique fighter. (Then again I haven't played any of the Animal Crossing games.) I wish Noah was there with Mio as Ouroboros is a major part of their characters and I think Leon would be a lackluster as a rep for Resident Evil (I would go with either Chris Redfield or Albert Wesker.) Aside from those, this is a solid roster.

Ultimate counted PT as both a single fighter and multiple fighters at the same time. They are resource-heavy due to being 3 in 1 but I think their assets are fresh enough (they were remade from the ground up in Ultimate) to where they could be reused almost as is with minor touchups. Aegis is more blatantly two sides of the same coin, with them sharing all attack animations except the specials and FS. Again, new assets may be easier to port without looking dated so I'm confident that Pyra/Mythra wouldn't take much effort the second time.

Impa is stated to have trained Sheik in OOT, she's also vanishes in a puff of smoke just like Sheik does, and her overall build lends itself to an echo slot pretty easily. She even has a dagger for the FS. Octolings are interchangeable with Inklings in Splatoon, so they could very well be echoes with minor weapon differences like Dark Pit. You may not like it but it is a realistic scenario.

I haven't played XC3 but I think a character is likely due to timing and I preferred Mio to Noah because of her unique weapon.

Nook is insanely iconic and recognizable, being AC's mascot alongside Isabelle. People said the same "can't have a unique moveset" thing about her too and she turned out fine. They could pull from the countless items AC has along with a potential bell gimmick. I could see him getting "typecasted" as Villager and Isabelle's FS but I'm not convinced that he's outright unlikely.

As for the RE character, it really could be anyone. I think all of the commonly mentioned ones have about equal chances.

I haven’t been following the entire discussion or watched Delzethin’s video because I still haven’t completed TotK but have any ideas been brought up how fuse would work in Smash if you weren’t playing with items on? I love the idea of fusing items but I would want a completely useless special if you were playing without items.

I don't like useless moves but remember Rosalina has gravitational pull that only works in matchups with projectiles.

 

[Gengar84]

Oh yeah that. We were talking about Zonais' screen time so it didn't really come to mind because it's really just a construct inhabited by Mineru's spirit.


Ultimate counted PT as both a single fighter and multiple fighters at the same time. They are resource-heavy due to being 3 in 1 but I think their assets are fresh enough (they were remade from the ground up in Ultimate) to where they could be reused almost as is with minor touchups. Aegis is more blatantly two sides of the same coin, with them sharing all attack animations except the specials and FS. Again, new assets may be easier to port without looking dated so I'm confident that Pyra/Mythra wouldn't take much effort the second time.

Impa is stated to have trained Sheik in OOT, she's also vanishes in a puff of smoke just like Sheik does, and her overall build lends itself to an echo slot pretty easily. She even has a dagger for the FS. Octolings are interchangeable with Inklings in Splatoon, so they could very well be echoes with minor weapon differences like Dark Pit. You may not like it but it is a realistic scenario.

I haven't played XC3 but I think a character is likely due to timing and I preferred Mio to Noah because of her unique weapon.

Nook is insanely iconic and recognizable, being AC's mascot alongside Isabelle. People said the same "can't have a unique moveset" thing about her too and she turned out fine. They could pull from the countless items AC has along with a potential bell gimmick. I could see him getting "typecasted" as Villager and Isabelle's FS but I'm not convinced that he's outright unlikely.

As for the RE character, it really could be anyone. I think all of the commonly mentioned ones have about equal chances.


I don't like useless moves but remember Rosalina has gravitational pull that only works in matchups with projectiles.

I think Hyrule Warriors existing turns me away from the idea of Impa as a Sheik echo. She was so much fun to use in those games and had two completely unique movesets in the original Hyrule Warriors and another in Age of Calamity. Sheik was also playable in the first HW and played nothing like Impa. Sure, Impa technically could work as an echo but I feel she has so much more potential now that it would be pretty disappointing.

As for reflectors and gravitational pull being situationally useless moves, you do have a point. I would argue the situation is a bit different between being useless based on what character you’re facing and being useless if you don’t play with items. The former at least has a chance to be used in certain matchups and the latter could never be used at all if you never play with items on. I might give the move some kind of secondary function or spawn a random/generic item to fuse with items turned off.

 

[fogbadge]

Oh yeah that. We were talking about Zonais' screen time so it didn't really come to mind because it's really just a construct inhabited by Mineru's spirit.

that still counts

 

[Perkilator]

I haven’t been following the entire discussion or watched Delzethin’s video because I still haven’t completed TotK but have any ideas been brought up how fuse would work in Smash if you weren’t playing with items on? I love the idea of fusing items but I would want a completely useless special if you were playing without items.

Not to be rude, but I did just post earlier:

Delzethin's take describes Fuse as "merge a handful of Zonai devices to Rauru's sword, and items only affect the power of sword-based attacks (unless you Fuse with an explosive item)"

The devices he mentions being:

• Flame Emitter (increaes damage along with a flame trail)
• Shock Emitter (turns Rauru's attacks into multi-hits)
• Rocket (hits the hardest of any Fused device)
• Mirror (sword attacks reflect projectiles)

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Fuse I think would work exactly the way you described it, it feels pretty fun and accurate to TotK.
I do think that extending the range of every single move might be a little overkill, as Link uses a sword for most of his attacks. Imagine what would happen if he fuses a Hammer to the Master Sword lol, but Rauru could use a sword for just a few select moves that would also be the ones to make use of Fuse. (I can't remember if Rauru uses a sword at any point during TotK to be honest, but zonai swords exist so maybe it wouldn't be that big of a stretch)
Zonai devices in my mind would work more or less like the Inkling's weapons, where he summons one for some move and then it disappears. Like up smash could be the flamethrower, and stuff like that, and those wouldn't benefit from Fuse.

Okay, while I'm here, here's how I see him working.
Neutral B - Fuse: attach the item you have in your hand to Rauru's sword. That only affects some moves, like I guess fsmash, ftilt, fair.
Side B - Ultrahand: a mix between Confusion and Gravitational Pull. It has some decent range and using it on an item lets you put it in your hands (so you can instantly Fuse it). Maybe you could also grab stuff like Samus's Charge Shot and attach it to your sword lol, that sounds insane.
Up B - Ascend: just a tiny little jump like Witch Twist but with no hitbox, unless of course you hit a platform.
Down B - Recall: basically a counter, you'd make the animation of the attack you countered play in reverse, leaving the opponent open. Use it on projectiles to make them go backwards (while they're still facing frontwards though).
Final smash: that Kamehameha thing he uses against the Moldugas in a cutscene.
Normal attacks would be a mix of sword moves (that make use of Fuse), zonai devices and some punch/kicks for the faster moves.

Something like this. He'd probably be broken but the TotK powers applied to Smash just sound fun. I dunno, I think they fit the kind of chaos that Smash usually thrives in very well.

The idea of fusing every items with Rauru sword sounds fun, but from a game development perspective there's no way this happens. My take on the moveset is that Neutral B should be Auto-build. This would work similarly to Zelda's down B. Rauru would start building a car, and the more you hold the bigger it gets and then when you release it starts rolling and do damage to others.

I think the best way to represent fuse in the moveset is to just have him uses already fused weapons in is normals. For example, side Smash could be him hitting the opponents with a Sword with a big rock stick on hit, and the rock would be a Sweetspot.

Edit: Also recall should interact with autobuild instead of being a counter, this is boring and doesn't represent well what the abilities actually do.

 

[Gengar84]

Not to be rude, but I did just post earlier:

The devices he mentions being:

• Flame Emitter (increaes damage along with a flame trail)
• Shock Emitter (turns Rauru's attacks into multi-hits)
• Rocket (hits the hardest of any Fused device)
• Mirror (sword attacks reflect projectiles)

No problem. I did say I didn’t watch Delzethin’s video because at the very beginning, he mentioned that there would be big spoilers for the game and I hadn’t completed it yet. I was hoping to get the information without spoiling the game. Rereading what you posted with more context, I understand what you were saying. I saw a link to Delzethin’s video and instinctively skipped over the rest of the post. Sorry I didn’t fully read your post the first time. I’ll stay out of the conversation in the future if I’m not fully following along.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What would your reaction be if Shovel Knight made it in as a playable character in the current day? Would you be a big weirded out?

 

[Greenhorne Ethan]

What would your reaction be if Shovel Knight made it in as a playable character in the current day? Would you be a big weirded out?

I'm still a fan even if one might say the series fell off the radar, so I'd be very happy. He's my profile icon in Ultimate.

 

[Gengar84]

What would your reaction be if Shovel Knight made it in as a playable character in the current day? Would you be a big weirded out?

I wouldn’t have an issue with it. I’ve never played the games myself but my friend is a huge fan so he’d be really excited. Shovel Knight has a fun enough design and moveset potential from what I’ve seen that I’d be happy to see him.

 

[Ivander]

What would your reaction be if Shovel Knight made it in as a playable character in the current day? Would you be a big weirded out?

Very happy, as I loved the original and had recently played it again and enjoyed it again. Also it makes up for no Shovel Knight Mii Costume.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

The idea of fusing every items with Rauru sword sounds fun, but from a game development perspective there's no way this happens. My take on the moveset is that Neutral B should be Auto-build. This would work similarly to Zelda's down B. Rauru would start building a car, and the more you hold the bigger it gets and then when you release it starts rolling and do damage to others.

I think the best way to represent fuse in the moveset is to just have him uses already fused weapons in is normals. For example, side Smash could be him hitting the opponents with a Sword with a big rock stick on hit, and the rock would be a Sweetspot.

Edit: Also recall should interact with autobuild instead of being a counter, this is boring and doesn't represent well what the abilities actually do.

But the beauty of TotK's powers is how free form they are.
If Fuse was to amount to pretty much just an aesthetic detail, and Ultrahand/Recall to Phantom Slash 2.0 but you can turn it backwards I'd personally be very disappointed, to the point I wouldn't even want them to have bothered with Rauru to be honest. In that way, the abilities might be more similar to their original versions in terms of appearance, but the free flowing aspect of them would be gone.

Those abilities are crazy in TotK. They let you interact with the environment in any way you like, you can attach anything to your sword and rewind the movement of every object that's on screen. They're also geared towards improvisation, you usually have to come up with something depending on what you have available around you.
I think adapting that kind of environmental interaction to the things you interact with in Smash (items and other fighters) would be way more interesting and would preserve more of TotK's spirit.
Even though yeah, that requires Recall to become a counter, unless you want Rauru to be able to move other fighters backwards without having to interact with them.

Or they can do the abilities in any other way, but I want them to be as wacky as they are in the original game. Fuse should let you actually fuse stuff to your weapon. Rewind should be able to be applied at least to projectiles. Ultrahand should let you grab stuff. Otherwise I don't see much point in having a full character to represent TotK's mechanics, at that point it's better to just change Link's bombs to zonai stuff and call it a day (and then add Skull Kid).

Big IMHO, of course

 

[Louie G.]

What would your reaction be if Shovel Knight made it in as a playable character in the current day? Would you be a big weirded out?

Admittedly I wouldn’t feel very strongly one way or the other. I would feel like it’s a bit too late, but I don’t expect he’d be an especially controversial addition nor would I be upset.

However I do feel like the landscape has moved forward in a way where other indies persist longer and are more exciting. Given the option of Sans, Cuphead, Shantae or Zagreus I would choose any of them before SK. Maybe as someone who was tangentially involved with or plugged into indie crossover stuff some years back the allure of Shovel Knight showing up in things has waned on me, while the others would feel more novel.

 

[fogbadge]

What would your reaction be if Shovel Knight made it in as a playable character in the current day? Would you be a big weirded out?

not at all

 

[Gengar84]

Admittedly I wouldn’t feel very strongly one way or the other. I would feel like it’s a bit too late, but I don’t expect he’d be an especially controversial addition nor would I be upset.

However I do feel like the landscape has moved forward in a way where other indies persist longer and are more exciting. Given the option of Sans, Cuphead, Shantae or Zagreus I would choose any of them before SK. Maybe as someone who was tangentially involved with or plugged into indie crossover stuff some years back the allure of Shovel Knight showing up in things has waned on me, while the others would feel more novel.

I need to play more indie games. I’ve only played a couple overall and none of the really popular ones you posted. Just from a design perspective, my favorite of those is Zagreus. I’ve seen a few gameplay clips of Hades and it seems like he could be a fun smash character too from what little I’ve seen.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

But the beauty of TotK's powers is how free form they are.
If Fuse was to amount to pretty much just an aesthetic detail, and Ultrahand/Recall to Phantom Slash 2.0 but you can turn it backwards I'd personally be very disappointed, to the point I wouldn't even want them to have bothered with Rauru to be honest. In that way, the abilities might be more similar to their original versions in terms of appearance, but the free flowing aspect of them would be gone.

Those abilities are crazy in TotK. They let you interact with the environment in any way you like, you can attach anything to your sword and rewind the movement of every object that's on screen. They're also geared towards improvisation, you usually have to come up with something depending on what you have available around you.
I think adapting that kind of environmental interaction to the things you interact with in Smash (items and other fighters) would be way more interesting and would preserve more of TotK's spirit.
Even though yeah, that requires Recall to become a counter, unless you want Rauru to be able to move other fighters backwards without having to interact with them.

Or they can do the abilities in any other way, but I want them to be as wacky as they are in the original game. Fuse should let you actually fuse stuff to your weapon. Rewind should be able to be applied at least to projectiles. Ultrahand should let you grab stuff. Otherwise I don't see much point in having a full character to represent TotK's mechanics, at that point it's better to just change Link's bombs to zonai stuff and call it a day (and then add Skull Kid).

Big IMHO, of course

The thing is that you're trying too hard to capture the free form open world nature of Totk into a 2d fighting games and it just doesn't work, nor it's realistic. I'm sorry but not every game mechanics will translate well to Smash, it worked with Bayonetta and Ryu and Kazuya but some work much less. I don't think having a more "classic" moveset is a bad thing personally. For example, I think Banjo moveset is pretty good and I hated so much the idea that some people had pre-release that he should have a collectathon gimmick and collect stuff while fighting. Not every moveset need to be copy paste of playing the original game.

What would your reaction be if Shovel Knight made it in as a playable character in the current day? Would you be a big weirded out?

I'd like it, I think Shovel knight as established itself as one of indies greatest mascot thanks to the regular release (last game was Dig in 2022, so he never really lose relevancy, although you can argue that Dig clearly isn't as popular as the Treasure trove package).

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

The thing is that you're trying too hard to capture the free form open world nature of Totk into a 2d fighting games and it just doesn't work, nor it's realistic. I'm sorry but not every game mechanics will translate well to Smash, it worked with Bayonetta and Ryu and Kazuya but some work much less. I don't think having a more "classic" moveset is a bad thing personally. For example, I think Banjo moveset is pretty good and I hated so much the idea that some people had pre-release that he should have a collectathon gimmick and collect stuff while fighting. Not every moveset need to be copy paste of playing the original game.

On this I agree 100%, but it also depends on the character and on the particular mechanic, I think.
Strolling around the stage to collect randomly spawning items just to be able to use special moves is an awful idea, it just doesn't work in a fighting game (especially not in a fighting game where stages are as diverse as they are in Smash). However, the Smash team still captured the resource management aspect of Banjo-Kazooie, although in a less intrusive and more exciting way, through Wonderwing's limited usages.
But also, Banjo & Kazooie kinda inherently have more than that going on? They had a ton of moves even in their games and those are all in Smash, plus their core appeal is being a two-in-one character and that's also reflected in just about anything you can do when you play as them.
Rauru I think is a character you'd bring in mostly to bring the TotK mechanics with him, I don't think there would be much point in just having him as a "face on the CSS" so to speak. And if the mechanics are the main dish, they need to be fully cooked imo.

About my suggestions, I'm not saying they're the only way they can implement the TotK abilities, but I don't think that Fuse or Recall working like that would be much outside of the stuff they did with Steve, for example.
The game already tracks the movement of every object on screen frame by frame in order to enable the replay function. Recall would mostly build on that. And items already follow your character whenever you pick one up, Fuse would just make them have an active hitbox for a short while (which they already have too, when they're thrown or sucked in a black hole). I don't think it would actually be that crazy on the programming side, and in practice it would more or less work like a fancier version of Villager's Pocket, while my Recall would be a fancier counter. Nothing too crazy to actually play as. Might be a nightmare to play against though! Recalling an up B sounds awful... Then again, counters already destroy most up Bs... eh it depends on how they balance it.

 

[fogbadge]

I haven’t watched the dethelzin video yet, does it use the power of light?

 

[BuckleyTim]

I like Shovel Knight, but it feels like we're firmly out of the era where his big relationship with Nintendo matters, both in a Smash context and a greater indie game context. I personally think he's been kinda succeeded by the other indie characters that have been mentioned in Smash since, though I assume his chances and support base will be fine as soon as Yacht Club announce what they're working on next.

Idk, it's just that "oh it's a retro love letter with mostly authentic nes graphics, isn't nintendo just the coolest" period around 2011-2015 feels... dated in comparison? Shovel Knight feels like Mr. Early-2010s in that regard, and that's not bad but it does mean that he wouldn't feel right as an "mascot of indies as a whole" rep. Granted, I'm sure stuff like Undertale will age just as much by the incredibly-far-out Smash 7/8 on the Switch 3, but it feels like UT peaked in such a higher context and even to a degree relationship with major game composers at TPCi and the relationship with Japan's indies (shoutout to his crossover song with ZUN) that I'd still stunt for Papyrus or Undyne.

On that note, Cave Story and Touhou should be on the shortlist for an Indie rep (that hasn't been owned by Microsoft for a decade). Those two are cornerstones of early indie gaming that are still fondly in the conversation even today (especially since Touhou, y'know, is ongoing and has tons of official fangames).

 

[DarthEnderX]

What would your reaction be if Shovel Knight made it in as a playable character in the current day? Would you be a big weirded out?

I think Mii costumes and ATs is the appropriate level of representation for indie characters. But I wouldn't be mad about it.

I like Shovel Knight, but it feels like we're firmly out of the era where his big relationship with Nintendo matters, both in a Smash context and a greater indie game context.

You guys know Shovel Knight Dig is barely, like, a year old, right?

 

[Louie G.]

Granted, I'm sure stuff like Undertale will age just as much by the incredibly-far-out Smash 7/8 on the Switch 3

I know I’m splitting hairs here because we’re in agreement on its viability, but I feel like if this hasn’t happened already then it won’t. Shovel Knight only released one year before Undertale, but it somehow feels like an eternity ago. Undertale still feels fairly new because it’s found consistent ways to show up in surprising places, increase its scope and stay in the public eye. If we’re nearing a decade of Undertale and it hasn’t aged out of the conversation then I think it’s safely evergreen.

As for Cave Story and Touhou, I’d be totally down but I struggle to see it. Cave Story is historic but not unlike Shovel Knight feels like its time in the sun has largely subsided. Touhou has very much not, but its presence over here is still dubious and Nintendo doesn’t seem that interested in platforming the series or giving it valued Nintendo Direct showcases or anything like that. I just don’t know what the incentive would be there. So much of the series and its world presence falling on the fans’ shoulders makes for a very compelling and unique community but one that fares a bit strangely in the context of Smash and properly judging overseas accessibility.

…but I do think a discussion of those two + an Undertale character is a more fascinating angle on the indie conversation since it’s one that emphasizes “indie rep” in a Japanese context. Compared to the likes of Shovel Knight or Shantae, who are rather obscure there. The answer in my eyes has continued to be the one with the most reach worldwide, which is Undertale, but at least Cave Story has a respectable presence here as well and has been in the conversation since SSB4.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I think Mii costumes and ATs is the appropriate level of representation for indie characters. But I wouldn't be mad about it.

Unless it's Shantae, i want Shantae playable above all other indies.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Oh hey, that's right, I've been meaning to share something.

SEGA and their crossovers have popped up in conversations around here sometimes, and it looks like we're finally getting a new one. Prominent SEGA/Atlus leaker Midori, who's gotten a lot of stuff right lately, has posted this:

Let Tim Cook this year with new Sega titles releasing on Apple Arcade, including a new Sega All-Star title by developed by Hardlight.

— みどり (@MbKKssTBhz5) March 12, 2024

It seems that we're getting a new SEGA crossover game by way of Apple Arcade, which SEGA is currently obsessed with. They've confirmed in the replies that it's actually a tennis game, so we're getting a new one of those for the first time in 16-ish years.

As for what it'll turn out like, given it's seemingly being made by Hardlight (an England-based studio), I'd expect the (likely small) roster to hew closer to the stuff that was prominent in the All-Stars games, with maybe some Yakuza/Persona and a couple more Genesis nostalgia picks.....which is a bit unfortunate for me cause I had some issues with these games' representation and this prolly means a lot of stuff I'd want is off the table, but ah well. Still cool we might get a new one

On the one hand, Sega Superstars Tennis was actually pretty fun. On the other hand... Apple Arcade. Why Sega? Why do you keep doing this?

 

[cashregister9]

I'm not even a big Shovel Knight guy but I feel like it has a lot going for it, It wasn't the first but it really did bring a lot of popularity to the retro revival indie game scene and in terms of Nintendo It had amiibo so that is some extra stuff in it's favor

As for other indies

Touhou, Touhou is such a powerful cultural force and having that in smash bros. would be great.

Cave Story is a great game but the fact that Nicalis basically tricked the creator into getting the rights to Cave Story really sours any sort of collab idea for me personally. Kero Blaster content would be based though

Shantae, I think she would be really fun and fits right in to smash bros. I don't really have much to add

Undertale I have thoughts about. Undertale is quite possibly my favorite game of all time but I really struggle with trying to make smash movesets for it. I don't like the idea of Sans being based on the genocide route. Because that is not really representative of the character, but it would be valid for a moveset. I struggle with Frisk because I don't think they should directly attack and I have the same problems with sans where the genocide route doesn't really fit. In trying to not do the Genocide route it adds the pitfall of easily getting too gimmicky. That is why I shill for Undyne because I can think of way more ways to make her fight and have it still represent Undertale and her character. Same thing applies to the Fun Gang. But would either of those characters be good undertale representation?

 

[Ivander]

On the one hand, Sega Superstars Tennis was actually pretty fun. On the other hand... Apple Arcade. Why Sega? Why do you keep doing this?

Supposedly, Apple did some sort of deal with Sega like what happened with Nintendo and Sega during the Wii U era starting with Sonic Lost Worlds. Which you think would've made them think twice about doing another exclusivity deal. But who knows...

That said, considering Sonic Lost World eventually was re-released on PC, here's hoping some of their other Apple exclusives eventually release elsewhere, especially consoles.

 

[Noipoi]

Same thing applies to the Fun Gang. But would that be good undertale representation?

Nah.

It'd be pretty good Deltarune representation though

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Y'all aren't ready for Freddy.

You know, aside from the fact none of the games got Japanese localizations aside from Security Breach (but at least the movie dropped there) and crossover collabs just aren't a thing for the franchise outside Chica being in Creepy Castle many years ago. :V

 

[HyperSomari64]

crossover collabs just aren't a thing for the franchise outside Chica being in Creepy Castle many years ago. :V

It's like when Stephen Hillenburg prohibited Nickelodeon to do an actual crossover episode with SpongeBob. (The Tidal Zone, the Nicktoons Unite games, some commercials and Patchy the Pirate in Big Time Rush doesn't count)

 

[Will]

What would your reaction be if Shovel Knight made it in as a playable character in the current day? Would you be a big weirded out?

I prefer other indie characters like sans or Quote, tbh only because I like their designs more. I don’t see an issue with him joining the roster.

Definitely going to SD doing a lunge D-Air so I can bounce off someone’s head

 

[Shinuto]

I like Shovel Knight, but it feels like we're firmly out of the era where his big relationship with Nintendo matters, both in a Smash context and a greater indie game context. I personally think he's been kinda succeeded by the other indie characters that have been mentioned in Smash since, though I assume his chances and support base will be fine as soon as Yacht Club announce what they're working on next.

Idk, it's just that "oh it's a retro love letter with mostly authentic nes graphics, isn't nintendo just the coolest" period around 2011-2015 feels... dated in comparison? Shovel Knight feels like Mr. Early-2010s in that regard, and that's not bad but it does mean that he wouldn't feel right as an "mascot of indies as a whole" rep. Granted, I'm sure stuff like Undertale will age just as much by the incredibly-far-out Smash 7/8 on the Switch 3, but it feels like UT peaked in such a higher context and even to a degree relationship with major game composers at TPCi and the relationship with Japan's indies (shoutout to his crossover song with ZUN) that I'd still stunt for Papyrus or Undyne.

On that note, Cave Story and Touhou should be on the shortlist for an Indie rep (that hasn't been owned by Microsoft for a decade). Those two are cornerstones of early indie gaming that are still fondly in the conversation even today (especially since Touhou, y'know, is ongoing and has tons of official fangames).

I'm sorry but Cavestory isn't anything special anymore either I want it but it's not some special rep here at least not now.

 

[Curious Villager]

I think Hyrule Warriors existing turns me away from the idea of Impa as a Sheik echo. She was so much fun to use in those games and had two completely unique movesets in the original Hyrule Warriors and another in Age of Calamity. Sheik was also playable in the first HW and played nothing like Impa. Sure, Impa technically could work as an echo but I feel she has so much more potential now that it would be pretty disappointing.

As for reflectors and gravitational pull being situationally useless moves, you do have a point. I would argue the situation is a bit different between being useless based on what character you’re facing and being useless if you don’t play with items. The former at least has a chance to be used in certain matchups and the latter could never be used at all if you never play with items on. I might give the move some kind of secondary function or spawn a random/generic item to fuse with items turned off.

I mean, there are still a handful of characters that use items for moves such as the Link's, Peach, ROB, Diddy Kong, Villager, Bowser jr, I think the Belmonts Holy Water can be picked dup too?
You may even extend it for other things such as Duck Hunt's can and Megaman's bomb if they really want to extend its usage outside of items I guess..

 

[chocolatejr9]

Y'all aren't ready for Freddy.

You know, aside from the fact none of the games got Japanese localizations aside from Security Breach (but at least the movie dropped there) and crossover collabs just aren't a thing for the franchise outside Chica being in Creepy Castle many years ago. :V

Actually, I'm pretty sure FNAF HAS gotten Japanese localizations.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Actually, I'm pretty sure FNAF HAS gotten Japanese localizations.

I don't think anything official, since a big selling point of Security Breach in Japan is how the series finally got a Japanese release.

 

[Dan Quixote]

What would your reaction be if Shovel Knight made it in as a playable character in the current day? Would you be a big weirded out?

Sure with a decade between the release of his game and now, he might seem a little out of date, but I genuinely think that game was a very important part of the mid-decade indie game explosion that came with FNaF and Undertale, and that goes double when you're specifically talking about Nintendo's relationship to indie games. The historical importance, imo, makes Shovel Knight deserve a spot even long after his peak.

 

[Wonder Smash]

What would your reaction be if Shovel Knight made it in as a playable character in the current day? Would you be a big weirded out?

Not me. His games are like tributes to the NES era, so I wouldn't mind his appearance at all.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I always viewed Undertale's triumph being its storytelling and clever use of certain video game conventions than its gameplay. An Undertale section in a Smash campaign with cameos? Absolutely. Its songs in the next sequel? Definitely? More Mii costumes? I'd love to have them.

But I've never really looked at it as a game with central figures that would so obviously translate as fighters. Its why my admitted indie preference is something like Shovel Knight because the core focus is getting versatile but very tight characters to play as and any four of them (Shovel, Plague, Specter, & King) just have so many little things to play with as far as options. Even with Smash's trend towards novel gimmicks with fighters, there's still meters or features to work with given the gameplay of Shovel Knight.