Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[GoldenYuiitusin]

By looking below Kirby

All that's below Kirby is an old diseased fleabag.

 

[Guynamednelson]

All that's below Kirby is an old diseased fleabag.

the real disease is getting Whatever New Starter's The Most Human

 

[superprincess]

How am I supposed to enjoy this roster without a new Pokemon?

Sorry, I admit I don't know much about Pokemon. I didn't care enough to research for a potential Gen 9 pick, and I also happen to only enjoy the cutesy Pokemon, so with Jiggs AND Pichu cut, I settled on Eevee. Maybe Sylveon would be a better choice with the upcoming Legends game?

All that's below Kirby is an old diseased fleabag.

Hey! Let's go Eevee was only... 5 years ago.
Look you have a point, but I just don't mess with Pokemon like that...

the real disease is getting Whatever New Starter's The Most Human

Speak on it! I'd rather get an irrelevant but adorable Pokemon than a bipedal, Deviantart-looking, edgy one. Which is why Jigglypuff and Pichu would be top priority in a perfect world

 

[Noipoi]

Sorry, I admit I don't know much about Pokemon. I didn't care enough to research for a potential Gen 9 pick, and I also happen to only enjoy the cutesy Pokemon, so with Jiggs AND Pichu cut, I settled on Eevee. Maybe Sylveon would be a better choice with the upcoming Legends game?

Hey! Let's go Eevee was only... 5 years ago.
Look you have a point, but I just don't mess with Pokemon like that...

Speak on it! I'd rather get an irrelevant but adorable Pokemon than a bipedal, Deviantart-looking, edgy one. Which is why Jigglypuff and Pichu would be top priority in a perfect world

Your blasphemy runs the risk of getting you uninvited to my Ratatouille themed birthday party

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'd rather get an irrelevant but adorable Pokemon than a bipedal, Deviantart-looking, edgy one

Good thing Eevee is only irrelevant in the Smash fan sense of "first party character that debuted more than a month ago". A Pokemon that is still marketed to hell and back and keeps being added to regional Pokedexes is anything but irrelevant.

 

[Louie G.]

Saw a couple of fan rosters here earlier so I thought I'd post mine as well ♡

Would actually be pretty content with this one! One of the first things I do with a roster is scan around to make sure Little Mac came back, so you got points on that front LOL. Decent batch of newcomers in my opinion, I'd be excited to play a good chunk of these. If we had to add one new third party series, making it Resident Evil is perfectly justified. Chun-Li and Knuckles, hell yes. King Boo and Eevee, fun picks! Tom Nook, essential.

A couple things stand out to me, I think the main one is the lack of Konami altogether. I feel like it's difficult to envision Konami not having any presence on release next game with how generous we saw them be with their Castlevania content. Between Simon / Richter or Snake, both are quite popular and presumably easy to grab so I would anticipate at least one of those two sticks around. A bit more understandably is the Banjo cut, but the recent focus on Rare content on Switch tipped me over the edge to believe they'll be a pretty safe and simple character to bring back. I guess I see the dilemma if you wanted to prioritize one or the other between him and Steve, but I kinda see a two-for scenario like Mega Man / Ryu instead. Truth be told, I'm a bit lax on third parties so I don't mind most of them getting cut, but I see these ones returning pretty easily.

I think the biggest shame is probably that the sacrifices skew toward quirky surprising fighters like Ice Climbers, Wii Fit Trainer, ROB, Duck Hunt... I do wholly understand why these guys take less precedent, and I'm not sure what to make of them myself yet. They don't bring a lot of individual content to the table, don't promise a lot of series growth. But I do love the flavor they add to the roster, so I hope a couple more of them will be able to squeeze into the real thing. The lack of Mewtwo is disappointing but understandable since Pokemon is bound to take some severe cuts one way or another. Curious how you envision DLC playing out, if you've thought about it at all.

Bottom line though, no decisions here I would be outwardly mad at. Disappointment over some cuts, but I'm already getting prepared for that. Many of my favorite characters are still here, most of the fundamentals are in tact, most of the newcomers feel like suitable steps forward.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Your blasphemy runs the risk of getting you uninvited to my Ratatouille themed birthday party

Superprincess, probably.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Saw a couple of fan rosters here earlier so I thought I'd post mine as well ♡

Spoiler: Big image

48 veterans (counting PT and Aegis as one fighter each) + 12 unique newcomers. 5 returning echo fighters + 4 new ones. This is on the upper end of my predictions, basically the most fighters I would expect in a non-port scenario.View attachment 386465
Feel free to disagree with any cuts/inclusions, but please provide reasoning.

This is largely inoffensive and reasonable.

And considering my stance on most fan rosters, that's a very high compliment.

ROB, Duck Hunt and Wii Fit Trainer don't seem like realistic cuts imo, but it's not a deal breaker.
I have to double take at only five Pokemon slots and no unique Splatoon newcomer but this is honestly pretty good.

 

[SPEN18]

If I'm being honest, it kind of bums me out how most folks are quick to dismiss such characters, ESPECIALLY if they hail from Nintendo. It's just one of the things I feel like 3rd party additions hurt in the long run.

Given Smash's "hype-culture" these days...

It was already such a double-standard the way people treated first parties that are in Smash vs. those that aren't. The prevalence of third parties in speculation has only made things more difficult. Hopefully the base game speculation leaves more room for talking smaller first party franchises than the DLC did.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Awesome. I really want to buy that game at some point but I’m currently working on my backlog of games I already own. Do Bill and Lance still play exactly the same or are there differences between them now?

They start out the same, but they each have a different purchasable upgrade. Bill can gain invincibility during his dash and Lance can get a higher double jump.

Why do you blame the DLC picks on Sakurai, which are well documented to have been selected by Nintendo, and then suggest Nintendo is mandating Shulk and Bayonetta?

That's just something Sakurai said to get people off his back. The coward!

Sorry, I admit I don't know much about Pokemon. I didn't care enough to research for a potential Gen 9 pick, and I also happen to only enjoy the cutesy Pokemon, so with Jiggs AND Pichu cut, I settled on Eevee. Maybe Sylveon would be a better choice with the upcoming Legends game?

Just say Garchomp. You can never go wrong with Garchomp.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The real question is if Nintendo will pick the rest of the DLC again(the only one that apparently Sakurai picked was Plant. We don't really know any details, like, at all).

It's not even surprising Nintendo went for it this time instead of Sakurai. Smash is still a major business venture and DLC sells like hotcakes. Being more selective allows them to base it more often around upcoming game releases(including rereleases) and other factors. While Sakurai chooses base, of course.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Saw a couple of fan rosters here earlier so I thought I'd post mine as well

Here's mine:

+

 

[superprincess]

Would actually be pretty content with this one! One of the first things I do with a roster is scan around to make sure Little Mac came back, so you got points on that front LOL. Decent batch of newcomers in my opinion, I'd be excited to play a good chunk of these. If we had to add one new third party series, making it Resident Evil is perfectly justified. Chun-Li and Knuckles, hell yes. King Boo and Eevee, fun picks! Tom Nook, essential.

To be completely honest, I was eyeing Mac for a cut... for most, he's not fun to play as or against, and his series is pretty dead. But I spared him because of Punch-Out's long history, which is referenced even to this day. Plus, I guess a ground-only fighter is a pretty novel concept in a "platformer fighting game".

RE felt like the only reasonable new third party universe imo. The series is huge worldwide, unlike most other third parties that are suggested.

Gotta admit Knuckles, Chun-Li, King Boo and Eevee are more self-indulgent picks. Although I could see the first two realistically happening, what with the Sonic series' newfound exposure and Chun-Li's... being the Chun-Li.

A couple things stand out to me, I think the main one is the lack of Konami altogether. I feel like it's difficult to envision Konami not having any presence on release next game with how generous we saw them be with their Castlevania content. Between Simon / Richter or Snake, both are quite popular and presumably easy to grab so I would anticipate at least one of those two sticks around. A bit more understandably is the Banjo cut, but the recent focus on Rare content on Switch tipped me over the edge to believe they'll be a pretty safe and simple character to bring back. I guess I see the dilemma if you wanted to prioritize one or the other between him and Steve, but I kinda see a two-for scenario like Mega Man / Ryu instead. Truth be told, I'm a bit lax on third parties so I don't mind most of them getting cut, but I see these ones returning pretty easily.

It was hard to decide but I just think the other third parties just out prioritize the Konami ones. Snake was only groundbreaking because he was the first one, and Simon was more of a love letter to the classic Nintendo days rather than a groundbreaking addition like Ryu, Cloud, Steve etc. At most I could see Simon making it in over Megaman? Eh... Or Snake over Bayo or something? But she's presumably super easy to acquire.

I think the biggest shame is probably that the sacrifices skew toward quirky surprising fighters like Ice Climbers, Wii Fit Trainer, ROB, Duck Hunt... I do wholly understand why these guys take less precedent, and I'm not sure what to make of them myself yet. They don't bring a lot of individual content to the table, don't promise a lot of series growth. But I do love the flavor they add to the roster, so I hope a couple more of them will be able to squeeze into the real thing. The lack of Mewtwo is disappointing but understandable since Pokemon is bound to take some severe cuts one way or another.

Yeah, looking back, I cut a lot of the quirky characters but when it came down to deciding who should be in... I really couldn't justify something like, Ice Climbers over Rosalina or Duck Hunt over K. Rool for example. I was mostly on edge about Bowser Jr, who was confirmed low priority in SSB4, and I almost replaced him with ROB. But still... Junior is a huge deal. He may play second fiddle to his daddy in the Mario series, but he's still a huge deal and super recognizable. Still a pick I'm on the fence about but oh well.

Cutting Mewtwo was hard. Had to go back and forth between it and Lucario a couple times. Both are super popular, recognizable, and starred in their own movies too. I like Mewtwo way more in Smash, it's one of my most played fighters... but Lucario did take priority in SSB4 too, and I guess Aura is a unique mechanic... I also find that Mewtwo is easier to resell as DLC, being a legendary Pokemon and all. Plus it's another gen 1 'mon. So Lucario wins until I change my mind on this again.

Curious how you envision DLC playing out, if you've thought about it at all.

I assume popular missing veterans like the aforementioned Mewtwo, Wolf, maybe Roy, Ice Climbers, Palutena, etc. would creep their way back in at a lower price. Third party veterans would probably come back with extra content and a higher price tag. I believe Square would get all its characters back again as DLC (which is why I put Cloud in base), Snake would probably come back due to popular demand, Kazuya would make it in again pretty easily.

As for DLC newcomers, I'd expect the usual. Around 10 new characters that are either from prolific third parties (I could see someone with more western appeal joining here like Doom Slayer) or super relevant Nintendo games (here's where your obligatory FE lord goes. You can't escape it because it's not in the base game).

This is largely inoffensive and reasonable.

And considering my stance on most fan rosters, that's a very high compliment.

ROB, Duck Hunt and Wii Fit Trainer don't seem like realistic cuts imo, but it's not a deal breaker.
I have to double take at only five Pokemon slots and no unique Splatoon newcomer but this is honestly pretty good.

I'll agree on ROB, he's a really important relic. I probably could've included him instead of Bowser Jr.

As for Duck Hunt and WFT, they're relatively new to Smash and... their playstyles are niche, to say the least. Their legacy is huge, especially Duck Hunt's, but I couldn't find it in me to kick out any of the existing veterans in their favor.

Pokemon did fine with only 5 slots in SSB4... that roster was of a similar size. And mine even has Pokemon Trainer.

 

[7NATOR]

The real question is if Nintendo will pick the rest of the DLC again(the only one that apparently Sakurai picked was Plant. We don't really know any details, like, at all).

It's not even surprising Nintendo went for it this time instead of Sakurai. Smash is still a major business venture and DLC sells like hotcakes. Being more selective allows them to base it more often around upcoming game releases(including rereleases) and other factors. While Sakurai chooses base, of course.

So to this day, when it comes to Both Fighter Passes, I believe Nintendo really only Chose 4 Fighters

Hero
Byleth
Steve
Kazuya

When these Fighters were described, Nintendo was explicitly mentioned in being a Major factor to getting the Ball Rolling. This is not to Say that the other Fighters in the Fighter Passes weren't discussed with Nintendo as well, but I think these 4 fighters I think get into what Nintendo Prioritizes when regards to Fighters

To Represent New Releases in their catalog, and to bring in Large, High Selling, Iconic Franchises, and Bring in New Audiences

So I think at least for the DLC, we'll get some of the Same thing again. The thing is that they already got the Biggest Game in the world in Minecraft, and they Already got Most of the Biggest Japanese Franchises in the game already, including Dragon Quest and Tekken into this, so it would be interesting to see where this go

On that Note, I think Nintendo is going to make sure Monster Hunter gets represented on the Playable Roster, even if it's not in the form of the Actual hunter if need be

 

[RodNutTakin]

If we're posting our rosters, might as well resend mine for those who missed it the first time (and also because I made one tweak to it for the time being):

Probably going to swap out the Pokemon newcomer slot at some point now that Legends ZA is a thing.

 

[AinsOoalGown]

I wonder how a character like Steve would be changed if they have any contractual change in regards to licensing/adapting. Since its a big franchise, they probably had a large book of dos and donts like Sonic, but the character got very creative last time, I wonder if ms would have a tighter leash depending on whatever their studios are doing or if its the same since Smash is very trustworthy for licensing.

Good thing Eevee is only irrelevant in the Smash fan sense of "first party character that debuted more than a month ago". A Pokemon that is still marketed to hell and back and keeps being added to regional Pokedexes is anything but irrelevant.

Eevee is popular and iconic but also its entire gimmick is evolving and that doesnt work in Smash, if TPC isnt willing to crop pikachus ears they probably wouldnt be willing to allow a big mechanic change, then theres the balancing that would go with that. They can use lgpe one instead but then Pikachu is right there to get the weird hm moves, if plza or g10 had a new eeveelution it would be fine to add that though

Speak on it! I'd rather get an irrelevant but adorable Pokemon than a bipedal, Deviantart-looking, edgy one. Which is why Jigglypuff and Pichu would be top priority in a perfect world

Calling things edgy and deviantart is very toxic to say just over characters and games you never played and has some gross implications about what the person saying it is projecting on the designs, so if someone is as "anthropomorphic" as Crash, Tiny Tiger, poor K. Rool or even some gen 1 pokemon (so just a bipedal monster in a series full of wacky monsters from beasts to objects to actual humanoids like Mime that wouldnt have implications in but the grossest minds) but its for a game you dont know its "deviantart" (gross thing to use as an insult) and "edgy" (cause black color means that now), yet other franchises with similar designs still in the game as fair, it takes someone with a ton of prejudice to take a wacky wrestling monster and assume the japanese were thinking on what you do in that deviantart site and not just making a wacky tiger, theres not liking something wich is fine and then theres being toxic (or even gross, if someone said that about even Mr Mime Id be sure to stay far away from a person implying they project such things on monsters) about it just because its from a popular series that one doesnt play. Dont do the latter again.

The issue with roster discourse in a non-Ultimate game is that, bitter toxicity, where some people got salty over choices not taken before and want everyone cut they didnt knew personally to spite others, thats why post reveal Ultimate was the best period, since it cut that by the root.

 

[BritishGuy54]

People were complaining about Dr.Mario yet adovacting for Paper Mario.

I think that just comes from the differences.

Paper Mario would just play completely different from regular Mario.

 

[superprincess]

Calling things edgy and deviantart is very toxic to say just over characters and games you never played and has some gross implications about what the person saying it is projecting on the designs, so if someone is as "anthropomorphic" as Crash, Tiny Tiger, poor K. Rool or even some gen 1 pokemon (so just a bipedal monster in a series full of wacky monsters from beasts to objects to actual humanoids like Mime that wouldnt have implications in but the grossest minds) but its for a game you dont know its "deviantart" (gross thing to use as an insult) and "edgy" (cause black color means that now), yet other franchises with similar designs still in the game as fair, it takes someone with a ton of prejudice to take a wacky wrestling monster and assume the japanese were thinking on what you do in that deviantart site and not just making a wacky tiger, theres not liking something wich is fine and then theres being toxic (or even gross, if someone said that about even Mr Mime Id be sure to stay far away from a person implying they project such things on monsters) about it just because its from a popular series that one doesnt play. Dont do the latter again.

I literally didn't imply anything when I said Deviantart. I just meant they look fanmade, which is a sentiment a lot of people share about new Pokemon designs. What gross implications are you talking about?

And edgy isn't even an insult. Lucario is edgier than Pikachu and that's a fact. The new ones lean a lot harder into the edgy aspect which I just don't like. And I literally never said the color black = edgy. What.

I didn't mean for the Eevee choice to be this deep lol just imagine any Pokemon you like over it. Its chances are not high at all but I do not care enough about Pokemon to search for a recent one that isn't the tired Meowscarada. There's a high probability that it'll be Gen 10 anyway.

 

[Gengar84]

I wonder how a character like Steve would be changed if they have any contractual change in regards to licensing/adapting. Since its a big franchise, they probably had a large book of dos and donts like Sonic, but the character got very creative last time, I wonder if ms would have a tighter leash depending on whatever their studios are doing or if its the same since Smash is very trustworthy for licensing.



Eevee is popular and iconic but also its entire gimmick is evolving and that doesnt work in Smash, if TPC isnt willing to crop pikachus ears they probably wouldnt be willing to allow a big mechanic change, then theres the balancing that would go with that. They can use lgpe one instead but then Pikachu is right there to get the weird hm moves, if plza or g10 had a new eeveelution it would be fine to add that though



Calling things edgy and deviantart is very toxic to say just over characters and games you never played and has some gross implications about what the person saying it is projecting on the designs, so if someone is as "anthropomorphic" as Crash, Tiny Tiger, poor K. Rool or even some gen 1 pokemon (so just a bipedal monster in a series full of wacky monsters from beasts to objects to actual humanoids like Mime that wouldnt have implications in but the grossest minds) but its for a game you dont know its "deviantart" (gross thing to use as an insult) and "edgy" (cause black color means that now), yet other franchises with similar designs still in the game as fair, it takes someone with a ton of prejudice to take a wacky wrestling monster and assume the japanese were thinking on what you do in that deviantart site and not just making a wacky tiger, theres not liking something wich is fine and then theres being toxic (or even gross, if someone said that about even Mr Mime Id be sure to stay far away from a person implying they project such things on monsters) about it just because its from a popular series that one doesnt play. Dont do the latter again.

The issue with roster discourse in a non-Ultimate game is that, bitter toxicity, where some people got salty over choices not taken before and want everyone cut they didnt knew personally to spite others, thats why post reveal Ultimate was the best period, since it cut that by the root.

Hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Maybe superprincess could have worded things better but there’s nothing wrong with preferring the cute Pokemon over “cool” or “edgy” Pokemon. If you can’t tell from my user name, I don’t share that opinion (though there are tons of cute Pokemon I do like) but I don’t think that justifies personal attacks like that. I don’t really have an issue with people using the term “edgy” to describe certain Pokémon. I’m not sure how else I’d describe them either. Most of my favorites fall into that category like Gengar, Cofagrigus, Golisopod, Orbeetle, and Hisuian Zoroark.

My biggest issue with many modern Pokemon designs is that too many of them take their source inspiration too literally instead of just being cool monsters. I know we’ve always had Pokemon like that, for example, Hitmonchan from Gen 1 but we seem to get more and more over time. I’m not personally big on the concept of a Pokemon designed around a profession like a soccer rabbit or another that’s too literally based on Gene Simmons. References can be cool if they’re a bit more subtle. I prefer when designs look more like creatures and less like cereal box mascots. That’s just my opinion though and there are still plenty of modern designs I do like.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I will say I am saddened that Min Min seems to be a frequent target for cuts though.

She was more than just advertisement, guys.

 

[Garteam]

I'm mildly surprised by how conservative a lot of people are being regarding returning third parties, particularly those from the Fighter's Passes. Yes, they're more work administratively and cost more than characters owned by Nintendo, but most of the third parties are also big names that are popular in and out of Smash. Plus, I imagine Ultimate's massive success has to make negotiations more efficient to some degree. Ultimate has sold more than any individual Sonic, Street Fighter, or Final Fantasy, which has to make corporate partners at least a little more eager to play ball.

At the very least, I'm confident that we're getting , , , , , , , andin the base game. It's more likely than not that ,, , , and return too, but I don't think they are as inevitable as the previous eight. , , and could go either way, but I think the (potential) simplification of Dragon Quest's licensing and the Sora Amiibo are cause for optimism. If Hero and Sora are in the base game, I'd honestly also expect Sephiroth at that point.

 

[Perkilator]

With more recent fighting games like Street Fighter 6 and Tekken 8 embracing single player content, I hope the next Smash game does the same, even if it’s different from the former two games that I mentioned.

 

[RileyXY1]

I'm mildly surprised by how conservative a lot of people are being regarding returning third parties, particularly those from the Fighter's Passes. Yes, they're more work administratively and cost more than characters owned by Nintendo, but most of the third parties are also big names that are popular in and out of Smash. Plus, I imagine Ultimate's massive success has to make negotiations more efficient to some degree. Ultimate has sold more than any individual Sonic, Street Fighter, or Final Fantasy, which has to make corporate partners at least a little more eager to play ball.

At the very least, I'm confident that we're getting , , , , , , , andin the base game. It's more likely than not that ,, , , and return too, but I don't think they are as inevitable as the previous eight. , , and could go either way, but I think the (potential) simplification of Dragon Quest's licensing and the Sora Amiibo are cause for optimism. If Hero and Sora are in the base game, I'd honestly also expect Sephiroth at that point.

I don't think that any of the Square Enix reps will be in the base game unless they do Everyone is Here again. SE seems to prefer their characters getting in as DLC (and it's not just Smash, there was also Noctis in Tekken 7 and 2B in Soul Calibur 6) and I think that Cloud would have been cut and made into DLC once again if Sakurai didn't plan on doing EIH.

 

[Gengar84]

With more recent fighting games like Street Fighter 6 and Tekken 8 embracing single player content, I hope the next Smash game does the same, even if it’s different from the former two games that I mentioned.

Same here. I think that’s the main thing Smash is currently lacking. I’d love to see another ambitious co-op adventure mode of some kind. I recognize it had its flaws but I thought the general concept for SSE was amazing. I’d like to see something like that brought back and flesh out the issues people had with it.

I don't think that any of the Square Enix reps will be in the base game unless they do Everyone is Here again. SE seems to prefer their characters getting in as DLC (and it's not just Smash, there was also Noctis in Tekken 7 and 2B in Soul Calibur 6) and I think that Cloud would have been cut and made into DLC once again if Sakurai didn't plan on doing EIH.

Where is everyone getting this take from? Square-Enix only had one opportunity to have a character return in the base of the following game and that happened with Cloud from Smash 4 to Ultimate. You could argue that was thanks to Everyone is Here but there are no examples of them refusing a character for the base game that was in a previous Smash. Ultimate had few base game newcomers overall thanks to EiH so I don’t think you can really pin that one on Square-Enix either.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

It might be the optimist in me speaking, but I think it's wild how people swear there's no way Square lets Cloud be part of the next Smash's base game when that's... exactly what happened last time.

 

[Megadoomer]

I feel like the returning third party characters will depend on whether or not Sakurai is back (Joker, for example, felt very much like a "Sakurai" pick, for the lack of a better word, and I'm not sure if a different director would try as hard to include him), but there are some third party characters that I'm confident about:

- unless third party characters get cut from the franchise entirely, it seems like Sonic's staying; he's a three time veteran and there are presumably plenty of reasons for that.

- if Namco's back to help with Smash's development like they did for the past three Smash games, I don't see Pac-Man leaving. (I'm less confident with Kazuya - he's more complicated than the other fighting game characters in terms of gameplay, so I could see him being cut due to time constraints)

- Nintendo funded three quarters of her franchise, and her games fill a niche that Nintendo isn't really able to fill themselves. Unless Sega backs out entirely, or Platinum shuts down and is no longer able to make Bayonetta games, I feel like Nintendo's going to keep using her in Smash. (when it comes to Sega characters, I feel like Joker depends the most on who the next Smash game's director is)

- if I had to only pick one of these, I'd go with Ryu, since he seems like the face of Capcom, but both characters seem easy enough to get, with Capcom coming across as being pretty easy to work with for crossovers. (if Ryu comes back, Ken also seems likely)

- SNK's response to the suggested music list says it all, I think. They seem eager and willing to get involved in crossovers.

Honourable mentions to Banjo, Steve, and Sora; apparently, their companies (Microsoft and Disney) were easier to work with than expected, and given the reaction to the inclusion of those characters (Steve's inclusion actually broke Twitter), it seems like there'd be motivation to bring them back, even if it was as DLC again. (I'm just not as confident with them as I am with the others)

Konami feels like a wildcard to me, while I don't feel like Square-Enix is super likely, though I'd love to be wrong. (we didn't even get Final Fantasy spirits with the original artwork until Sephiroth's DLC - up until that point, Cloud's spirit just used his Smash render) Then again, Square-Enix does seem to have warmed up to Nintendo since the Wii U days, which would be when Smash Ultimate was in development.

 

[BritishGuy54]

I will say I am saddened that Min Min seems to be a frequent target for cuts though.

She was more than just advertisement, guys.

I agree that Min Min was more than just an advertisement, but also partially was an advertisement. I think you can say the same thing about Byleth and Pyra/Mythra too. Many people called them ‘shill picks’.

I think it is important to see where each franchise in Smash is right now. Especially the first parties. Animal Crossing and Xenoblade deserve more than one character, which a lot of rosters just reduce them to one. Splatoon and Pikmin should get more characters, but I can see why they may not. And it might be better not to talk about dormancy of older faces too much.

I do think part of it is nostalgia, with older characters they would adore to get a chance in Smash. I think a lot of people overlook Nintendo’s endeavours post-millennium, be it franchises becoming more prominent or getting their start.

A thing to keep in mind is that history is not just the 80’s and 90’s. People are already nostalgic for the DS and Wii right now. History is always evolving.

I'm mildly surprised by how conservative a lot of people are being regarding returning third parties, particularly those from the Fighter's Passes. Yes, they're more work administratively and cost more than characters owned by Nintendo, but most of the third parties are also big names that are popular in and out of Smash. Plus, I imagine Ultimate's massive success has to make negotiations more efficient to some degree. Ultimate has sold more than any individual Sonic, Street Fighter, or Final Fantasy, which has to make corporate partners at least a little more eager to play ball.

I would say I’m conservative on third party inclusions. I like the inclusions, but also Ultimate was special. An event. Ultimate is the exception (until it isn’t).

I think part of that is the time frame a new game could come. The gap between 4 and Ultimate was 4 years. The gap between Ultimate and now is 5 1/2 years. And that will likely be even longer, with a minimum date of 2026 being an 8 year gap.

More time means more Nintendo games and characters that have come since. Ultimate made sense to have a lot of third parties because there wasn’t many new things to take into account. But now, there is, and likely will be more.

I’m not confident every third party will return, with Sakurai’s comments on licensing and all, but I’d like to be surprised. It just depends on us playing it safe or going all in for speculation.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I will say I am saddened that Min Min seems to be a frequent target for cuts though.

She was more than just advertisement, guys.

I remember back in the day, people hyped up an ARMS fighter, treating Spring Man as an inevitability for the base roster.

People even got pissy over the fact that Byleth happened and we didn't have an ARMS or Xenoblade 2 fighter. Then we got both of those later and people still found ways to complain about all three.

 

[Noipoi]

people still found ways to complain

This is a universal truth

 

[chocolatejr9]

I remember back in the day, people hyped up an ARMS fighter, treating Spring Man as an inevitability for the base roster.

People even got pissy over the fact that Byleth happened and we didn't have an ARMS or Xenoblade 2 fighter. Then we got both of those later and people still found ways to complain about all three.

Ain't that the truth. I still remember that one user who insisted that anybody who liked Xenoblade 2 was a pedophile...

 

[Gengar84]

Ain't that the truth. I still remember that one user who insisted that anybody who liked Xenoblade 2 was a pedophile...

While I do think the game had some questionable character design choices, I think it’s ridiculous to attack anyone personally who enjoyed the game or even those designs. That particular insult makes things even worse. I just wish people could be more respectful of each other and just express that the designs don’t really appeal to you without resorting to personal attacks like that.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

This is a universal truth

True, true. Depressing, but true.

Ain't that the truth. I still remember that one user who insisted that anybody who liked Xenoblade 2 was a pedophile...

If it's who I think it is, they've always been a problem user. But I don't want to really dwell on that.

 

[Louie G.]

Regardless of how people feel about Pyra and Mythra, most are not so stubborn to suggest nobody wanted a Xenoblade 2 character. It was a popular request throughout base game speculation and the Rex costume was actively disappointing to many. Spring Man being an AT was baffling to most. Pretty much frame one of the ARMS reveal provoked Smash speculation... it was Nintendo's first original fighting game in ages.

So you have to imagine Sakurai and Nintendo took notice of this and put a tab on it. Sakurai regarded both as "strange omissions" due to timing. While any addition is going to have a theoretically positive influence on sales or visibility, I really do think the addition of an ARMS character as well as the addition of Pyra / Mythra were a response to fan demand and confusion about the lack thereof on base roster. Perhaps it was a misread of the situation where expectation was confused for desire, but you can't blame them for taking notice.

I understand that ARMS is not the most beloved game, but nobody seemed that mad at the prospect when they were treating Spring Man as an inevitability. Min Min is pretty frustrating to play against so I guess that was part of it, although I'm inclined to blame the raised expectations installed by the previous third parties and the disappointment of going straight from Byleth to ARMS. But regardless of what it was, I feel for Min Min. Whenever a small, budding series misses the boat and ends up trapped in Assist Trophy hell we reflect back and wonder what could have been if Smash took a chance on them. In ARMS' case they decided to answer that question for us, and I guess a lot of people weren't happy with the answer. I wish she was more fun to play as / against but conceptually I still appreciate her.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The sad truth is, the fanbase thinks it knows what it wants until it actually gets it.

I know this meme I made after Kazuya is about Goku who will never get in, but it kinda illustrates the point.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Min Min is fine. She feels more like a base game character rather than a DLC one, with her hailing from a smaller Nintendo series and justifying her presence in the game mostly through her unique mechanics. She's not really the first character of that kind. From this point of view, I think the radical change of pace she brings compared to most other characters should be appreciated, even if it's not the most popular playstyle ever. You're not supposed to play only as her forever as her, you know?
I do think they might have overdone some aspects of her design - you kinda miss having normal aerials while playing as her, and her damage output is sheer insanity - but overall I also think it was cool that they took a chance on a smaller series like ARMS (actually not even a series, at least yet) and on a fighting style as weird as Min Min's. They might have chosen her partly from promotional reasons, but I don't mind that if it's for such an out there character.

I also think her alleged unpopularity is a little overestimated, yeah sure she's the punching bag of youtubers and wannabe competitive players who complain about most characters anyways, whatever, the player base of this game is so much bigger than that.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I think that just comes from the differences.

Paper Mario would just play completely different from regular Mario.

Doctor Mario also play differently from regular Mario. It's the reason why he's bottom Tier whilst Mario is High

It might be the optimist in me speaking, but I think it's wild how people swear there's no way Square lets Cloud be part of the next Smash's base game when that's... exactly what happened last time.

Wasn't Cloud rumored to almost cut from Ultimate though? Where did that even come from exactly?

Heard that reasoning that EiH almost wasn't possible due to Cloud somehow

 

[fogbadge]

Doctor Mario also play differently from regular Mario. It's the reason why he's bottom Tier whilst Mario is High



Wasn't Cloud rumored to almost cut from Ultimate though? Where did that even come from exactly?

Heard that reasoning that EiH almost wasn't possible due to Cloud somehow

fan’s heads

 

[Guynamednelson]

The sad truth is, the fanbase thinks it knows what it wants until it actually gets it.

Hey, I wanted Terry and like the way he plays, and K. Rool was pretty popular around launch, it was the nerfs in Patch 2.0 that severely reduced his playerbase rather than people going "nvm this moveset is lame".

...although I can't say the same about me liking playing Little Mac, and even though I've brought up a Brawl mod pack which includes Isaac several times recently, you'd think I'd be all over him, but no. His normals have some weird quirks like his up air lacking any range, and his up and down tilts not being sword slashes only really make sense to give equipping the Mercury Djinn more utility. But I can say this: His grab/throw animations?

Exactly what I wanted to see if Sakurai was going to focus on summoning giant hands for Isaac's AT.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

The sad truth is, the fanbase thinks it knows what it wants until it actually gets it.

I know this meme I made after Kazuya is about Goku who will never get in, but it kinda illustrates the point.

View attachment 386486

Ehh, I don’t feel like that’s true. There’s plenty of people who wanted Banjo, K. Rool, Ridley, Simon, and Sora who are satisfied with them. Same for the FGC characters. The blanket statement of the fanbase not knowing what it wants is kinda disingenuous. I’m pretty satisfied with all the characters I wanted and got in.

The main thing that people seem to harp on is the competitive nature of the characters. If they’re not competitively viable then not many play them online (generally) or in tournaments and that’s perceived as “no one ever plays Ridley even though everyone asked for him” which is just blatantly untrue. I couldn’t care less about the competitive side of Smash and while it’s nice to see Snake up there in the tier lists, I’d still be playing the character even if he was rock bottom.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The sad truth is, the fanbase thinks it knows what it wants until it actually gets it.

Or, just maybe, people want a character because they like the character. But then playing that character can be ruined with a dog**** moveset.

Personal experience:
Wanted Mac. Got Mac. Moveset is fun to play, but has huge weaknesses. I still main him.
Wanted Simon. Got Simon. Moveset is fun and functional. I main him.
Wanted Hero. Got Hero. Moveset is complicated and frustrating to play. I never touch him. Still glad he got in, just wish he was playable.