Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Capybara Gaming]

What would your reaction be if Shovel Knight made it in as a playable character in the current day? Would you be a big weirded out?

At this point I'm just kind of over Shovel Knight in general. The fact that he has crossed over into literally 40 different games gives me fatigue. He's lost his special luster.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

As for Shovel Knight, that sounds pretty good. He's a really neat character with a plethora of options. I even have some of the amiibo.

 

[Jave]

I wouldn't mind Shovel Knight, but there are several Indie characters I'd prefer over him, notably Shantae or Cuphead.

Also, and being a bit realistic, it really seems that during the pre-release period of Ultimate, Yacht Club Games was pushing Shovel Knight EVERYWHERE, putting him in every possible crossover and even getting him in Smash as an AT. Since all of that seems to have died by now it really feels SK's chance has passed. (Although don't let this post stop you from supporting him).

 

[Speed Weed]

Yeah, I saw the news about that and while I'm glad that SEGA is still doing crossovers, the Apple Arcade thing has me really concerned. A lot of people are not happy about that and I'm not surprised. SEGA needs to keep making these crossovers for the home consoles.

On the one hand, Sega Superstars Tennis was actually pretty fun. On the other hand... Apple Arcade. Why Sega? Why do you keep doing this?

Yeah, I'm not too jazzed about SEGA going so hard on Apple Arcade either - feels like one of many recent examples of them going all-in on Modern Gaming Industry Nonsense, and I find it all a bit tiring.

If it's any consolation, I don't think this is in any way, shape or form preventing or "taking the place of" an actual SEGA crossover on consoles. Especially given the studio that's allegedly developing it, this seems highly likely to be a lower-frills, smaller-scale project comparable to a mobile game in terms of the crowd it's aimed at and the niche it fills. It's very likely more of a "side thing" than The Next Big SEGA Crossover, so it's not like the choice is between this or a console game, yknow?

 

[JOJONumber691]

Or, just maybe, people want a character because they like the character. But then playing that character can be ruined with a dog**** moveset.

Personal experience:
Wanted Mac. Got Mac. Moveset is fun to play, but has huge weaknesses. I still main him.
Wanted Simon. Got Simon. Moveset is fun and functional. I main him.
Wanted Hero. Got Hero. Moveset is complicated and frustrating to play. I never touch him. Still glad he got in, just wish he was playable.

I main Hero. Hero isn’t that deep bro.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Yeah, I'm not too jazzed about SEGA going so hard on Apple Arcade either - feels like one of many recent examples of them going all-in on Modern Gaming Industry Nonsense, and I find it all a bit tiring.

If it's any consolation, I don't think this is in any way, shape or form preventing or "taking the place of" an actual SEGA crossover on consoles. Especially given the studio that's allegedly developing it, this seems highly likely to be a lower-frills, smaller-scale project comparable to a mobile game in terms of the crowd it's aimed at and the niche it fills. It's very likely more of a "side thing" than The Next Big SEGA Crossover, so it's not like the choice is between this or a console game, yknow?

Yeah, that's true. I guess the issue is that its been awhile since we last had a console SEGA crossover game, y'know? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the last one All-Stars Transformed?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I'd imagine the Apple/Sega deal is likely just a very long exclusivity period before the latter can move their stuff onto other platforms. The former gets the sales when the title is hot and other systems eventually reap the numbers of those that want to play but not within the Apple ecosystem.

 

[Gorgonzales]

What would your reaction be if Shovel Knight made it in as a playable character in the current day? Would you be a big weirded out?

I actually finished Shovel of Hope for the first time recently (and I've started Plague Knight's campaign) and I would be really happy to see him make it. Dude's got the connections, the moveset potential, and the fame.

It's not just that though, the world and characters of Shovel Knight are just so dang fun. I love all the different personalities and designs of the knights and their levels. I'd love to see the Explodatorium make it in as a stage, with those barrels launching up soft platforms at fixed intervals. It would be so cool to see a location from this game translated into HD.

There's one nagging little hiccup I have with Shovel Knight in Smash though, and it's probably not what you're thinking like "the ship has sailed" for him or whatever. It's his Rivals moveset.

His Rivals moveset is unironically so peak that I really can't imagine him being put in Smash with a different kit without it feeling inferior. It's so well-desinged that I'd want his Rivals moveset pretty much 1:1 ported into Smash, and even then I feel like it'd feel worse due to Smash lacking wavedashing and stuff like that.

Again, it's not a legitimate problem, just a hiccup. I do not know how you could improve on Rivals's Shovel Knight moveset design.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Yeah, I'm not too jazzed about SEGA going so hard on Apple Arcade either - feels like one of many recent examples of them going all-in on Modern Gaming Industry Nonsense, and I find it all a bit tiring.

If it's any consolation, I don't think this is in any way, shape or form preventing or "taking the place of" an actual SEGA crossover on consoles. Especially given the studio that's allegedly developing it, this seems highly likely to be a lower-frills, smaller-scale project comparable to a mobile game in terms of the crowd it's aimed at and the niche it fills. It's very likely more of a "side thing" than The Next Big SEGA Crossover, so it's not like the choice is between this or a console game, yknow?

I hope so.

Though, would a crossover tennis game usually be the type of game they would put on the mobile?

 

[Kirbeh]

On Shovel Knight, I'd really like to see him get in and tbh it feels really weird seeing the sentiment around him nowadays. It's not I think he's all that likely myself but I see him get treated sort of like a washed up has been sometimes. Which is doubly weird for me.

Back during Smash 4 DLC speculation I was the odd one out for favoring Bayo's odds over his, who I thought would get AT status at best (among irl classmates mind you and a handful of other online spaces, not here.)

SK might not be as big as Undertale/Deltarune are right now but I still think it's a great series with a respectable legacy just as a game and an important one in the context of being an indie.

I can understand people getting tired of seeing him in every other indie back then (I did too) but that doesn't really carry over into my perception of a potential appearance in Smash.

I do agree that as far as indies go, U/D has the best shot ( by a good margin,) but I think people kind of undersell other prominent indies like SK and Cuphead nowadays (or always in a case like Shantae.) It's still a very difficult uphill battle, but I think it says something that they actually got into Smash to begin with even if only in minor roles.

On the previous TotK powers topic.

I don't think Recall necessarily needs to be a reflector/counter style move, though I could certainly see that as the route taken for ease of implementation. I think the way to do it though, would be to have it affect items and projectiles exclusively like a reflector but the behavior around it is closer to it's actual source material.

So, let's say a full charge Shadow Ball is coming your way. You can use recall to send it back to the position it was launched from where it then remains frozen in place for a brief period. After that time is up it resumes it's original path like normal. They key difference is that after having been under the effect of Recall it's now capable of damaging Mewtwo.

As for Fuse, I actually grew attached to the idea of using as a "build your own stage hazard tool." So instead of using on items, Rauru could have an inventory of Zonai Devices. Side special would be dedicated to scrolling through them by using the left and right inputs. Neutral special would then summon the currently highlighted device and pressing it again would fuse it directly to the stage or a platform. During the initial summon you would be locked in place while using the stick to control Ultrahand to find where you want to place the device. Shielding or dodging would cancel and drop the device which would remain on stage and could be picked again by using neutral special while close to it.

 

[Shinuto]

You know we brought up Shovel Knight getting in Smash and his chances, what about Shantae? How would you react to her getting in?

 

[fogbadge]

You know we brought up Shovel Knight getting in Smash and his chances, what about Shantae? How would you react to her getting in?

id roll my eyes

 

[CannonStreak]

id roll my eyes

Why?

Granted, I am not the biggest fan of her, since she seems, in a way, sexist.

 

[Shinuto]

Why?

Granted, I am not the biggest fan of her, since she seems, in a way, sexist.

She was literally designed by a woman.

 

[CannonStreak]

She was literally designed by a woman.

Well, I can't say THAT is sexist in itself, but I do feel Shantae could have used a better design. I mean, she didn't have to be a fan-service kind of character.

 

[Louie G.]

You know we brought up Shovel Knight getting in Smash and his chances, what about Shantae? How would you react to her getting in?

I’m content with Shantae’s role remaining non-playable, maybe bumping her up to an AT like Shovel Knight, but Wayforward has been pretty actively involved with Nintendo so it would make some sense.

I don’t want her quite as much as I used to, I thought she was a great pick back in Smash 4, but I do still believe Shantae “fits” Smash exceptionally well. Maybe by design, lol. But I just imagine her being a super fun character, so I think I’d be happy with it. Good byproduct of both her and Shovel Knight is that we’d get some Jake Kaufman bops.

Admittedly Shantae is carried by her design, her music, her moveset potential. Which is fine, all of that is great and a perfectly valid reason to support her, but that is to say that her games have never been the biggest or most groundbreaking thing on their own. I personally have enjoyed them but she’s sitting somewhere in a bit of a lower caliber than many other guest characters. So I think I’d be a little surprised to see her make that jump over, unless her support has genuinely reached the level of someone like Banjo or that Nintendo connection is deemed equivalent to someone like Bayonetta.

 

[Shinuto]

Well, I can't say THAT is sexist in itself, but I do feel Shantae could have used a better design. I mean, she didn't have to be a fan-service kind of character.

The team behind just like cute designs, nothing wrong with indulging in it, fan service is taken way too seriously these days in my opinion.

 

[CannonStreak]

The team behind just like cute designs, nothing wrong with indulging in it, fan service is taken way too seriously these days in my opinion.

Maybe. I mean, she is not bad, but I still find something sexist about Shantae, or her series at least. Don't ask why, though.

 

[superprincess]

Why?

Granted, I am not the biggest fan of her, since she seems, in a way, sexist.

There's nothing wrong with promiscuous designs, especially when it fits.

You could say that a character like Pyra is skimpy for no reason, but given Shantae's character concept and the context of her game it makes sense that she's dressed like that.

And portraying women in a seductive or flirtatious way isn't sexist either especially when said seductiveness doesn't revolve around a man.

 

[fogbadge]

Why?

mild disappointment

She was literally designed by a woman.

solely designed or were others involved?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

She was literally designed by a woman.

She is, but the portrayal of women in the Shantae games IS sexist imo.

It's the kind of stuff that people THINK Fire Emblem and Xenoblade are. There's some blatantly insulting stuff in Pirate's Curse and I'm usually pretty forgiving of fanservice. It's not the designs, but it's the portrayal of characters and how they're so frequently fetishized without any depth.

The games are still great games and the cast is still fun, but being designed by a women isn't a free pass for the blatant sexualization that goes on in those games. I wouldn't be opposed to Shantae getting in because there is a lot of fun stuff in those games, but **** be more sexist and pandering than Fire Emblem, LMAO.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I main Hero. Hero isn’t that deep bro.

Cool story. Probably why I qualified it as a "personal experience".

Meter management required to do specials + real time randomized menu navigation makes him more complicated than 90% of the Smash roster.

 

[CannonStreak]

There's nothing wrong with promiscuous designs, especially when it fits.

You could say that a character like Pyra is skimpy for no reason, but given Shantae's character concept and the context of her game it makes sense that she's dressed like that.

And portraying women in a seductive or flirtatious way isn't sexist either especially when said seductiveness doesn't revolve around a man.

I have much less of a problem with Pyra, and Mythra, actually.

I just, with Shantae, think-aw forget it! I don't want to see where this discussion goes! Either PM me or agree to disagree, now. I do not want to start something...bad.

 

[Shinuto]

She is, but the portrayal of women in the Shantae games IS sexist imo.

It's the kind of stuff that people THINK Fire Emblem and Xenoblade are. There's some blatantly insulting stuff in Pirate's Curse and I'm usually pretty forgiving of fanservice. It's not the designs, but it's the portrayal of characters and how they're so frequently fetishized without any depth.

The games are still great games and the cast is still fun, but being designed by a women isn't a free pass for the blatant sexualization that goes on in those games. I wouldn't be opposed to Shantae getting in because there is a lot of fun stuff in those games, but **** be more sexist and pandering than Fire Emblem, LMAO.

Oh dont EVEN try to argue Shantae is worse than FE.

 

[CannonStreak]

She is, but the portrayal of women in the Shantae games IS sexist imo.

It's the kind of stuff that people THINK Fire Emblem and Xenoblade are. There's some blatantly insulting stuff in Pirate's Curse and I'm usually pretty forgiving of fanservice. It's not the designs, but it's the portrayal of characters and how they're so frequently fetishized without any depth.

The games are still great games and the cast is still fun, but being designed by a women isn't a free pass for the blatant sexualization that goes on in those games. I wouldn't be opposed to Shantae getting in because there is a lot of fun stuff in those games, but **** be more sexist and pandering than Fire Emblem, LMAO.

Before I make an attempt to drop this completely, thanks for that, Swamp Sensei. I do agree with that, and it is good to see someone think along similar lines.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Where does one draw the line between what qualifies as indie here? It feels weird to categorize Shantae as one considering WayForward's large portfolio of games and longevity in the industry. I dunno, it always felt a little weird that she's classified as an indie character.

 

[Shinuto]

Where does one draw the line between what qualifies as indie here? It feels weird to categorize Shantae as one considering WayForward's large portfolio of games and longevity in the industry. I dunno, it always felt a little weird that she's classified as an indie character.

Nintendo counts her as such

 

[Swamp Sensei]

There's nothing wrong with promiscuous designs, especially when it fits.

You could say that a character like Pyra is skimpy for no reason, but given Shantae's character concept and the context of her game it makes sense that she's dressed like that.

And portraying women in a seductive or flirtatious way isn't sexist either especially when said seductiveness doesn't revolve around a man.

See this is part of the problem.

Shantae isn't flirtatious or seductive. And the majority of the cast isn't flirtatious or seductive but almost ALL of the are designed to be skimpy without much going for them.

Like Pyra and Mythra have over sexualized designs. It detracts from the game. But it's so easy to forget that because they themselves are fascinating characters with some great writing.

Aside from Shantae herself and Risky Boots, none of the other characters are interesting enough to distract from the TnA.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Gameplay wise I'd actually prefer a Shantae lifted more from the Pirate's Curse as I really enjoyed that game and feel that a Wonder Boy/Monster Boy fighter would probably pull off the animal transformation concept a bit better as it felt better executed in those games than many of Shantae's.

 

[superprincess]

Cool story. Probably why I qualified it as a "personal experience".

Meter management required to do specials + real time randomized menu navigation makes him more complicated than 90% of the Smash roster.

I don't think MP management is too complicated, it's mostly there to keep his busted specials in check.

The randomized command menu though... it makes him so complicated and cluttered. He's the opposite of intricate but to the point characters like Peach with her float cancels or R.O.B. with his gyro combos. Hero just presses buttons and tests his luck. Nothing he does feels purposeful, which is why losing to him is especially annoying (because it means your opponent just got lucky instead of outskilling you) and winning with him is unsatisfying because it feels like you just got carried by RNG shenanigans.

Which is why he's so fun in a casual setting. I'm mostly speaking from a competitive standpoint when I say he's unnecessarily cluttered and random, but in casual matches? He's super fun, especially in dittos. Pulling a Kamikazee when you have a stock lead, recovering from certain death with Zoom, walling your opponents out with Magic Burst... peak casual Smash fun moments to me.

 

[fogbadge]

Where does one draw the line between what qualifies as indie here? It feels weird to categorize Shantae as one considering WayForward's large portfolio of games and longevity in the industry. I dunno, it always felt a little weird that she's classified as an indie character.

well indie is supposed to mean made independent from all the big developers. so I guess it depends on how big you think wayforward is

 

[Noipoi]

Pyra/Mythra always looked ridiculous to me. They just look like they came right out of an adult manga or something. Makes it hard to take them seriously.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Unless it's Shantae, i want Shantae playable above all other indies.

I don't consider Shantae and indie character these days.

WayForward has hundreds of employees and release multiple games a years. They can't reasonably be called an indie company anymore.

I don't think MP management is too complicated, it's mostly there to keep his busted specials in check.

Which just also happens to keep things like...his basic recovery in check.

Get knocked off an edge while LOM? You're deader than Little Mac.

 

[CannonStreak]

Pyra/Mythra always looked ridiculous to me. They just look like they came right out of an adult manga or something. Makes it hard to take them seriously.

Understandable. I do tolerate her more than Shantae; all except since Shantae is a genie, or half-genie, anyway, I can give her a free pass. Same with Risky Boots to an extent.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Oh dont EVEN try to argue Shantae is worse than FE.

In some ways it is.

Shantae doesn't really have some of the weird marriage or incest problems that FE has but I'd argue that most of Fire Emblem's female cast has a lot more agency. And Fire Emblem's ladies don't get thrown into sexually strange situations like being forced to wear slave gear or bathing in spit.

Both games have a lot of problems when it comes to the treatment of women, but I find it easier to forgive Fire Emblem's issues because there's usually some depth to the characters.

 

[Shinuto]

Pyra/Mythra always looked ridiculous to me. They just look like they came right out of an adult manga or something. Makes it hard to take them seriously.

Well yeah...they're character designer literally made H-doujins.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

My only issue with the Menu system for Hero is that the names can be confusing for players due to different languages. I don't mind the RNG at all. I get why people have issues with it, of course. I'm just a classic RPG fan. I like RNG. And other stuff(though I do like some modern ideas too. Battle Gauge System is great, not needing a menu for every tiny action is great too. Having some things a bit more automated/reduced in how it works was a great change to later Dragon Quest games).

 

[7NATOR]

You know we brought up Shovel Knight getting in Smash and his chances, what about Shantae? How would you react to her getting in?

It would be very Cool, But I would be kind of Surprised because Shantae is a Really Niche Series to be honest. That's not the killer for me, but it's also that Shantae would probably be very complicated to be Developed, especially due to her Animal Transformations.

I do think though that even though Shantae as a Series Is I would say more Niche than even other Indies like Undertale, Shovel Knight, Hollow Knight, Hades, and even Touhou, Wayforward as a Company as shown to stay in the Industry as long as it has, since the 90's. I think that's important because it shows confidence in the Longevity of both the Series and the Company

I think Shantae needs a 3D Game though. I think that would at least give it a Higher chance of making it more Mainstream

 

[fogbadge]

Pyra/Mythra always looked ridiculous to me. They just look like they came right out of an adult manga or something. Makes it hard to take them seriously.

Yeah they certainly look daft. Mind you everyone in that game looks daft

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Pyra/Mythra always looked ridiculous to me. They just look like they came right out of an adult manga or something. Makes it hard to take them seriously.

Fun fact. I tried to make Pyra hates pants a meme for a while.

It didn't work.

She still hates pants.