Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[superprincess]

So.

What do you think of Corrin? They are Smash's first cannon LGBTQ rep.

Do you think that's important or should other characters who fulfill that niche like Byleth take over because they're more popular and successful?

It personally doesn't matter to me. Corrin sucks. The fact that they can marry people of the same sex doesn't matter, because they can also marry their ****ing little sister.

Byleth is also not great at being an "LGBT rep". It doesn't factor into their story at all, and male Byleth barely has any same sex options. They really should've made Claude available.

Also, when it comes to Smash, I don't think anyone cares about real life rep. We barely have any non-white people. Until 2014, we barely had any women. Are we at a point where we can start clamoring for LGBT rep in smash, when there are barely any gay people in gaming in general?

I'll say that if there had to be an LGBT character, it would have to be actually relevant to their story and identity.

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

So.

What do you think of Corrin? They are Smash's first cannon LGBTQ rep.

Do you think that's important or should other characters who fulfill that niche like Byleth take over because they're more popular and successful?

I doubt the Smash team considers that stuff a priority but assuming they do, I have a feeling bisexual Fire Emblem protags aren't the best options for that.

When Corrin and Byleth got, all discussion was about the fact they were the howmanyeth Fire Emblem character at the time. You saw nobody talking about them being bi or at least any talk surrounding that was likely drowned out by FE rep discourse. Not to mention Smash certainly brands them as Fire Emblem characters first and LGBTQ characters.... not at all I think.

 

[Noipoi]

So.

What do you think of Corrin? They are Smash's first cannon LGBTQ rep.

Do you think that's important or should other characters who fulfill that niche like Byleth take over because they're more popular and successful?

Corrin is the sole reason for Fire Emblem's negative reputation among the Smash community.

In Melee no one even knew who they were, at least in the west. By Brawl it was still just two characters, Marth and Ike. Hell some people wanted Roy back. By the time of Smash 4, after both Robin and Lucina's inclusion as well as bringing back Roy in dlc, people were starting to get just a little antsy about the prominence of FE in Smash. But various circumstances (Like Awakening's sheer success or Roy's veteran status) kept things relatively calm. If they would've stopped right here, I think we'd have a very different Smash community on our hands.

But instead they added Corrin and it all went to ****.

Corrin is a bad character from a bad game who was shoved into the end of Smash 4 when no one wanted them there, and who ruined their franchise's reputation in the greatest gaming crossover series in history. The only way they can rectify this cosmic mistake is if they GO AWAY.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk

 

[Gorgonzales]

So, uh... Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze turns 10 years old today.

Where do y'all think DK as a series goes from here?

A new 3D DK game seems like the next logical step. Either that or a 2D follow-up to Tropical Freeze so modern DK has a trilogy to rival the classic trilogy.

 

[Noipoi]

So, uh... Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze turns 10 years old today.

Where do y'all think DK as a series goes from here?

A 3D game, but less like 64 and more like 3D World or Forgotten Land. Segmented 3D levels where the objective is to get to the end, but there's stuff to find and collect along the way.

 

[Schnee117]

So.

What do you think of Corrin? They are Smash's first cannon LGBTQ rep.

Do you think that's important or should other characters who fulfill that niche like Byleth take over because they're more popular and successful?

Representation is 1000% important and anyone saying otherwise is a fool.

That said Corrin is terrible because:

• They're a player insert avatar with limited same sex options
• They can marry their family members

So... diversity win, the queer character can do an incest...

Byleth is a little better (there is a bit to be said about them being a teacher that can eventually hook up with their students even if the way the game plays out muddies this however) but going with other major characters like Edelgard would go much further in terms of being LGBTQ+ rep because she's not a player insert, her sexuality isn't wholly decided by the player like Corrin or Byleth and she has the actual text showing her being queer beyond the player insert.

Also Ike exists even if illiterate weirdos want to deny it and IS have been pushing M!Robin and Chrom as a pair with romantically charged language like Legendary M!Robin being referred to as "Exalt's Other Half" or them being a duo unit on a Valentine's Banner. I believe even Engage has Lucina refer to Robin as Chrom's "Other Half" too.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

So, uh... Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze turns 10 years old today.

Where do y'all think DK as a series goes from here?

Most likely nowhere, if the last 10 years are anything to go by.

:'(

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Unfortunate to see all the Corrin hate. She was one of the more unique additions of the FE lineup. Being half-human and half-dragon is quite cool

I know her inclusion was controversial but i was just indifferent.

Also as weird as it is, I don't thinl marriage options should be knock against her inclusion nor the options of possible LGBT make her defintive must either.

If Morals were a deciding factor, we would essentially have no villians or anti-hero on the roster. Too clean I say

 

[Louie G.]

Most likely nowhere, if the last 10 years are anything to go by.

DKC just got a showcase in a billion dollar movie and is getting a theme park attraction. The IP is not remotely dead, and if I had to guess the hold-up for a new game has something to do with Retro Studios being stuck in dev hell on Metroid Prime 4 for the last six years. Wait... seven years.

At that point, it makes sense for Nintendo to handle it in house like people have been speculating. I'm curious what could come from that, or if those rumors held any weight. I do think a new DKC is imminent though, it's really just a matter of when.

Oh, and after Smash Ultimate they'd kind of be insane not to bring back King K. Rool. I hope they hear the call, not a guarantee but it would be baffling.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

So, uh... Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze turns 10 years old today.

Where do y'all think DK as a series goes from here?

Most likely nowhere, if the last 10 years are anything to go by.

:'(

Baffling that Donkey Kong went 10 whole years with nothing new in sight other than being Mario's butt-monkey. Literally

You think with all the nicher franchises like Splatoon, Pikmin, FE, Kirby, Zelda and even going for F-Zero getting a resurgence and new-life on Switch + King K.Rool inclusion meant great things for the Kongs but no.

The Switch is the first Nintendo System in History so far with No new DK title. Even the Wii U got one.

Lesser extent goes to Star Fox as well. I guess Furry-adjecent Franchises aren't on the agenda.

 

[BritishGuy54]

When If Bandana Waddle Dee does get in next game we can probably expect Byleth levels of controversy and discourse perpetuated by people who played a maximum of 2 Kirby games in their lifes and were expecting characters like Master Chief or Kratos to show up in the base game.

Not that it matters cause Kirby fans will have already won at that point but on that day gamers around the globe will direct their anger towards a bandana wearing orb who likes apple juice and I will be along for the ride.

I honestly don’t think we’re ever going to get another character reaching Byleth levels of controversy again. Especially not BWD.

There could be some contenders for a lower stakes version. The next wave of Nintendo rotating cast characters might spark some controversy but that’s just how those series work. Perhaps a Mario character who isn’t Geno/Waluigi. Or the day when Smash gives us a gacha game character.

But yeah, there will probably be a handful of people who were seriously expecting Master Chief or something.

It’s strange how there can be a plausible argument that Piranha Plant was the least controversial DLC character.

 

[superprincess]

Representation is 1000% important and anyone saying otherwise is a fool.

That said Corrin is terrible because:

• They're a player insert avatar with limited same sex options
• They can marry their family members

So... diversity win, the queer character can do an incest...

Byleth is a little better (there is a bit to be said about them being a teacher that can eventually hook up with their students even if the way the game plays out muddies this however) but going with other major characters like Edelgard would go much further in terms of being LGBTQ+ rep because she's not a player insert, her sexuality isn't wholly decided by the player like Corrin or Byleth and she has the actual text showing her being queer beyond the player insert.

Also Ike exists even if illiterate weirdos want to deny it and IS have been pushing M!Robin and Chrom as a pair with romantically charged language like Legendary M!Robin being referred to as "Exalt's Other Half" or them being a duo unit on a Valentine's Banner. I believe even Engage has Lucina refer to Robin as Chrom's "Other Half" too.

Representation is important but not caring about it in the context of Smash isn't foolish.

I'm trans but I really don't care about being "represented" in a game about video game mascots smacking each other. Video games in general have lacking LGBT representation, so that naturally extends to the video game crossover that is Smash.

 

[BritishGuy54]

So, uh... Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze turns 10 years old today.

Where do y'all think DK as a series goes from here?

I think we’ll get another game at some point. For all we know, Retro may be developing both MP4 and DKCR3 simultaneously.

 

[Louie G.]

It’s strange how there can be a plausible argument that Piranha Plant was the least controversial DLC character.

I can't think of any real discourse surrounding Sephiroth, and he didn't grow into an obtrusive force in competitive play either.

Joker was surprisingly pretty devoid of controversy too, it helps that he came first and set the stage for everything to come. Change his placement or push him to the second wave and maybe we'd have people acting a bit more abrasively, but I'm not sure.

 

[Noipoi]

You think with all the nicher franchises like Splatoon, Pikmin, FE, Kirby, Zelda and even going for F-Zero getting a resurgence and new-life on Switch

This entire sentence is just baffling

 

[Dinoman96]

Joker was surprisingly pretty devoid of controversy too, it helps that he came first and set the stage for everything to come. Change his placement or push him to the second wave and maybe we'd have people acting a bit more abrasively, but I'm not sure.

Nah, I remember quite a bit of people going "WTF a Sony/PS character in my Nintendo fighting game?????"

Like back in 2018, here's a (now deleted) user on Resetera that got so mad that Joker was announced for Ultimate, they went ahead and made this thread: https://www.resetera.com/threads/nintendo-isnt-unique-anymore.85779/

 

[Opossum]

I get off work only to see Bandana Waddle Dee slander. In the year 2024. By someone who unironically thinks one-offs like Marx or Magolor should get in before the Luigi to Kirby's Mario.

I hate it here sometimes...

I get not liking Dee Slander but lmao Magolor is absolutely not a one off at this point.

So.

What do you think of Corrin? They are Smash's first cannon LGBTQ rep.

Do you think that's important or should other characters who fulfill that niche like Byleth take over because they're more popular and successful?

Representation is incredibly important, and the current state of it in Smash is fairly embarrassing. Like I'm sorry but it's genuinely embarrassing that there isn't a single black character on a roster of 89 without resorting to like, alts for Villager. Especially when characters like Doc Louis, Marina, and Twintelle exist from the Nintendo side alone, or even Timerra if they want to forego Alear for a different Engage character (I'd mention Basilio and Flavia, as well as Dedue too as far as prominent black Fire Emblem characters, but the former two would end up being the fourth and fifth fighter from Awakening alone, and Dedue is sadly way down the pecking order for additional Three Houses characters considering the House Leaders exist).

Hell, as far as POC characters in general (for the purposes of this, given the game's context of creation, this would amount to non-white, non-Japanese characters), there's only an embarrassingly small amount. We have Min Min (Chinese), the Ice Climbers (implied to be Inuit), Simon and Richter partially (implied mixed-race background due to Sypha being Romani iirc), and then Ganondorf who's just a blatantly offensive SWANA stereotype. When you have to start debating whether Steve counts in order to have more than one hand's worth, that's a problem.


But then as far as LGBTQ+ rep specifically, I'd also absolutely contest Corrin being the first. Ike 100% counts, especially when considering the original Japanese text. His endings unambiguously paint him as a gay man. And that's without getting into Snake.

As for Corrin specifically, they're...far from good representation imo. Like their gay options are the weird stalker for female Corrin and the outlaw who likes to make people uncomfortable for male Corrin. But even then, I do agree with Schnee as far as it being better if characters are like...allowed to be gay outside of the player. Like yeah, Corrin, Byleth, and Isabelle are canonically LGBTQ+, specifically bi or pan, but it's always nicer when it's more than just playersexual.

It's one of the many reasons I'd love to see Edelgard playable, but alas.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

Since the 3rd spirit event is over, there's one more left. I think the final spirit event will be a game from third party judging from the pattern.
Random spirits from Nintendo
Random spirits from third party
Spirits from one Nintendo game
Spirits from one third party game

So what game from third party will it be? I'm betting it's Sonic Frontiers and the spirits will be Koco, Giganto, and Sage.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

So, uh... Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze turns 10 years old today.

Where do y'all think DK as a series goes from here?

More consistent releases, and better representation in stuff like Mario Kart, Smash, even Mario Party, I hope.

Honestly as much as I respect the fact that the next entry is presumably not one that will be rushed or thrown out there just to have a DK release for the sake of it, it is hard to escape a sense that Nintendo (possibly until recently) has had an odd sense of priority with the series. 2000-2009 was an era filled with all kinds of spin-offs, remakes, and experiments, but mainline DK was limited to Jungle Beat which was already hindered by a controller the general audience associated with a rhythm game. But even then, at least there were Paon games that embraced the DKC cast, and the occasional bone thrown via a K Rool appearance in something like Sluggers.

The last 10 years have had some highlights here and there with K Rool's triumphant return in Smash being the big one alongside the port of Tropical Freeze at least doing something mildly fun with Funky Kong playable. But it's been a veritable desert in so many other ways, that the supposed hype of a Country section at Super Nintendo World can't help but feel a little empty. It's nice that Kongs had such a big presence in the Mario movies, it's cool that Diddy/Funky came back to mainline Mario Kart (though why it took so long for Diddy to even return is a little silly) and that Mario vs. DK is about to get a solid looking remake is charming to see.

However, until there's an actual new mainline Donkey Kong title actually put out there in some fashion (not rumors, not speculation, not a discussed "inevitability") I'm not really inclined to get terribly excited because the most critical media, real notable new games, are still not here. The last twenty plus years have taught me to not expect consistency in how this franchise is handled and as much as Nintendo has turned around from the out of touch sensibilities of the Wii U years, it's been too much time and too little representation for me to have any mindset other than "I'll believe it when I see it."

 

[MasterCheef]

Since the 3rd spirit event is over, there's one more left. I think the final spirit event will be a game from third party judging from the pattern.
Random spirits from Nintendo
Random spirits from third party
Spirits from one Nintendo game
Spirits from one third party game

.
Why do you think it will be one game rather than multiple games represented ?

 

[Ivander]

Missed a whole lot regarding Bandana Dee since I couldn't type while I was out, but probably for the better.

So.

What do you think of Corrin? They are Smash's first cannon LGBTQ rep.

Do you think that's important or should other characters who fulfill that niche like Byleth take over because they're more popular and successful?

There's nothing wrong about wanting a character for what they represent, whether person of color or sexual orientation. But IMO, it shouldn't be a top priority. Because it then feels like it's ignoring what else they can bring. Corrin can transform into a dragon and their body parts into dragon parts and has a chainsaw sword. Corrin is a Manakete and puts in Smash Bros. a part of Fire Emblem that Fire Emblem fans have been wanting to be in Smash Bros than just simply another sword character. And taking Corrin out would be taking that away, which is ironic for people who want to replace them with Alear when Alear doesn't even have a dragon form, so imagine taking out a character who can transform into a dragon to put in a dragon character that can't transform. Them being LGBTQ is a bonus.

All in all, I'm one of the few who believes Corrin will stay and despite the controversy, Corrin is still decently popular, with Female Corrin being highly and consistently popular and Male Corrin steadily going up in popularity as time goes on.

 

[NintenRob]

I regret reading the last three pages

in all, I'm one of the few who believes Corrin will stay and despite the controversy, Corrin is still decently popular, with Female Corrin being highly and consistently popular and Male Corrin steadily going up in popularity as time goes on.

The more I think about it, the more likely I think it is that Corrin get to stick around over other Fire Emblem. Though I don't particularly like his design or personality.

At least one unique character from Fire Emblem is getting cut through, unless we're somehow getting another game with minimal cuts again

 

[fogbadge]

A 3D game, but less like 64 and more like 3D World or Forgotten Land. Segmented 3D levels where the objective is to get to the end, but there's stuff to find and collect along the way.

so just DKC but with an extra dimension

Unfortunate to see all the Corrin hate. She was one of the more unique additions of the FE lineup. Being half-human and half-dragon is quite cool

I know her inclusion was controversial but i was just indifferent.

in this case it's not about their inclusion on the roster so much as they're not great in terms of representation

 

[PeridotGX]

So.

What do you think of Corrin? They are Smash's first cannon LGBTQ rep.

Do you think that's important or should other characters who fulfill that niche like Byleth take over because they're more popular and successful?

Bisexual here, I could not care less if they stay or if they get cut.

 

[Laniv]

Representation is incredibly important, and the current state of it in Smash is fairly embarrassing. Like I'm sorry but it's genuinely embarrassing that there isn't a single black character on a roster of 89 without resorting to like, alts for Villager. Especially when characters like Doc Louis, Marina, and Twintelle exist from the Nintendo side alone, or even Timerra if they want to forego Alear for a different Engage character (I'd mention Basilio and Flavia, as well as Dedue too as far as prominent black Fire Emblem characters, but the former two would end up being the fourth and fifth fighter from Awakening alone, and Dedue is sadly way down the pecking order for additional Three Houses characters considering the House Leaders exist).

Can I say something?

As a black guy, I often bring this up and am usually met with "Well, Smash Bros is a celebration of gaming and gaming doesn't really have a lot of prominent black characters." And, yeah, that's a fair point to make.

But at the same time... how pathetic is it that PlayStation All-Stars, of all games, managed to get a black character before Smash Bros?

 

[Schnee117]

As for Corrin specifically, they're...far from good representation imo. Like their gay options are the weird stalker for female Corrin and the outlaw who likes to make people uncomfortable for male Corrin.

Also with Corrin, these options were route exclusive and considering how Fates handled that, you had to pay extra for the one that wasn't in the version you brought. Absolutely none of this was handled well and that's honestly just a decent summary of Fates as a whole

I'm so glad they've improved even if it's still far from ideal because that **** was so ****ing rough.

 

[Louie G.]

Like I'm sorry but it's genuinely embarrassing that there isn't a single black character on a roster of 89 without resorting to like, alts for Villager. Especially when characters like Doc Louis, Marina, and Twintelle exist from the Nintendo side alone

I’m happy you mentioned these three because these are the ones I’ve thought the most about too. Particularly I’ve been eyeing Off the Hook a lot lately, even disregarding the new DLC, since a Splatoon idol team feels like a reasonable step forward for series rep. Happy coincidence, Marina is a prominent black Nintendo character and… well, it’s not explicitly confirmed, but I think a lot of people would be willing to accept them as LGBT rep too. Splatoon is one of the most culturally rich series in Nintendo’s arsenal so I think that's easily the most likely to breach this. Default Octoling would probably be the brown skinned variant as well.

Punch Out is another culturally fruitful Nintendo series, and was pretty much giving us great black characters before anything else. I love Doc Louis sooo much. Although in Smash, I think he fulfills a good role as Mac’s support and would probably push for Mr. Sandman in this context. I’ve also been pretty sold on the idea of bringing Punch Out back Creed style and letting Mac train the nephew of Doc Louis, or something to that measure. Idk how likely that is but I would be so into it. Kind of funny to me how the series with a reputation for stereotyping kinda has some of the strongest and most detail oriented representation. Everyone probably knows it by now, but Punch Out Wii brought out VAs from each boxer’s respective country to speak in accurate dialect. I think the series earns a bit more credit for that.

And then Twintelle, who I like on paper but I knew that wasn’t going to happen for Ultimate. People have enough trouble with Min Min as is, I think a Min Min who can fly and has Bayonetta powers might be something you’d concoct when trying to create the most infuriating Smash character of all time. Jokes aside though, I like the worldliness of ARMS and I’d welcome Twintelle if she could be balanced accordingly. I feel like she’s the ARMS character people liked the most at large.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly I think Twintelle makes a lot of sense for a second ARMS rep.

And even if I don't see Pearl or Marina making by themselves, Off the Hook could be really fun.

 

[Wonder Smash]

We really shouldn't be worrying about that kind of representation for this series. All we want is our favorite, iconic video game characters. This is supposed to be about video game representation, not racial, or sexual representation.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

We really shouldn't be worrying about that kind of representation for this series. All we want is our favorite, iconic characters. This is supposed to be video game representation, not racial, or sexual representation.

I mean in fairness, representation of that type matters to some fans. Especially with gaming at both the AAA and indie level starting to explore differing kind of stories and highlighting the kinds of races, sexualities, genders, religions, etc that often haven't gotten the spotlight in the industry's titles, wanting that kind of presence in the biggest crossover (game franchise only) of all time does make complete sense. There's a practicality to consider sure, but given just how big the hobby is and how many games have appeared on Nintendo consoles alone, in the grand scheme starting to incorporate that kind of diversity even a little bit doesn't feel like that big an ask.

 

[Laniv]

We really shouldn't be worrying about that kind of representation for this series. All we want is our favorite, iconic video game characters. This is supposed to be about video game representation, not racial, or sexual representation.

Actually I think it does matter that people should be able to see people that look like them in their favorite video games, and people should be worrying about that

 

[Wonder Smash]

I mean in fairness, representation of that type matters to some fans. Especially with gaming at both the AAA and indie level starting to explore differing kind of stories and highlighting kinds of people that often haven't gotten the spotlight in the industry's titles, wanting that kind of presence in the biggest crossover (game franchise only) of all time does make complete sense.

It really doesn't, as that's not the point of this series. And it really sounds kind of selfish to think that a series should change its direction just to cater to them. There are already other games that has what they're looking for anyway. It doesn't have to be this one too.

Actually I think it does matter that people should be able to see people that look like them in their favorite video games, and people should be worrying about that

Then just create a Mii. Simple as that.

 

[NintenRob]

Smash Bros is a reflection of games industry, if there are no black/gay/trans characters in Smash Bros, perhaps we need more noteworthy Black/Gay/Trans in games themselves.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It really doesn't, as that's not the point of this series. And it really sounds kind of selfish to think that a series should change its direction just to cater to them. There are already other games that has what they're looking for anyway. It doesn't have to be this one too.



Then just create a Mii. Simple as that.

Selfish? Oh hell nah man. People wanting representation aren't selfish.

I'm not black but a black character doesn't magically affect me negatively.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It really doesn't, as that's not the point of this series. And it really sounds kind of selfish to think that a series should change its direction just to cater to them. There are already other games that has what they're looking for anyway. It doesn't have to be this one too.

The kind of the depends on your definition. If you think the point of Smash is to have "interesting, popular, and/or beloved video game characters battling it out" then I'd say happening to want various minority characters (whether they be of a sexual, racial, ethnic variety) as some of them is just as valid as wanting platformer mascots or RPG figures in SSB.

 

[Laniv]

It really doesn't, as that's not the point of this series. And it really sounds kind of selfish to think that a series should change its direction just to cater to them. There are already other games that has what they're looking for anyway. It doesn't have to be this one too.

Dawg, it's not "changing the series direction" to ask for a black or gay or trans character in a game

 

[Wonder Smash]

Selfish? Oh hell nah man. People wanting representation aren't selfish.

I'm not black but a black character doesn't magically affect me negatively.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a black character but let's not try to get a character JUST because he's black.

 

[NintenRob]

Representation matters.

Period


End of discussion



That statement does not magically exclude games, or books, or comics. It matters, in everything.


When I see an Autistic or ADHD coded character (that's NOT poorly done like The Good Doctor). I feel good, I feel seen. I usually end up loving the character. Even if the character isn't actually autistic or ADHD. I like them because they're relatable.

People love characters who are relatable and can connect and everyone should have somebody they can connect with.

 

[Louie G.]

We really shouldn't be worrying about that kind of representation for this series. All we want is our favorite, iconic characters. This is supposed to be video game representation, not racial, or sexual representation.

I wish we were able to have these conversations in a mature way without being reminded of this. It’s okay to point out that a character would contribute something on the front of representation while also celebrating all their other merits. I don’t think anyone here is asking for a character exclusively because they fulfill this role.

That’s what I just did, I want Off the Hook independent of that and Punch-Out is one of my favorite games ever. It’s just nice that in the scenario where we get these characters, they would also be expanding the Smash roster’s scope. It’s a win win.

We have so many conditional quotas for trivial points of artificial, meaningless representation perpetuated by the community already, but it’s suddenly an issue when it’s about something real like someone’s identity. Kind of a shame.

 

[Schnee117]

Actually I think it does matter that people should be able to see people that look like them in their favorite video games, and people should be worrying about that

I cannot stress enough how important it is that when it comes to issues around diversity that the straights, the whites, the Cisgenders and anyone else that's privileged enough to be represented at large please sit down, shut up and listen instead of trying to shoot it down.