Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Louie G.]

That's not where it started. Star Allies was the one that got slammed the hardest, but it was a result of a complacency that had been slowly growing in the years prior.

I won’t split hairs on this too much since it’d be off topic for this thread, but I feel like Star Allies is moreso just when it started to be a noticeable issue. Sure, RTDL -> Robobot played largely the same, but TD was forgivable / not a problem at the time and Robobot provided one of the best gimmicks in the series.

By the time Star Allies came out its gimmick was somewhat underwhelming and its world was not as imaginative and interesting as its predecessor. So if it was slowly building, it was much easier to ignore because Robobot hit the arguable peak of this new school of Kirby game design and Star Allies took a step backwards.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

SS would be a water-based ninja which we already have in Greninja

Wait. How would SS Impa be water based?

Do you mean the OG Hyrule Warriors Impa? That one was water based.

 

[fogbadge]

Do you mean the OG Hyrule Warriors Impa? That one was water based.

oh now it makes sense

 

[Quillion]

I think Quillion's probably just mad that Bandana Dee is undeniably the most prominent and thus most likely Kirby newcomer in a sea of candidates that are vastly more interesting and diverse.

This is it right here. It's the fact that they act like Bandana Dee deserves to matter when so many other characters like Adeleine or even Marx or Magolor deserve it more.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This is it right here. It's the fact that they act like Bandana Dee deserves to matter when so many other characters like Adeleine or even Marx or Magolor deserve it more.

Something about this post gives me a real icky feeling.

Something "deserving to matter" just hits me the wrong way.

 

[Quillion]

Something about this post gives me a real icky feeling.

Something "deserving to matter" just hits me the wrong way.

Do you think Goombario deserves to matter more than just being a one-shot RPG spin-off character?

 

[CannonStreak]

This is it right here. It's the fact that they act like Bandana Dee deserves to matter when so many other characters like Adeleine or even Marx or Magolor deserve it more.

I wouldn’t say something like that, as the word “deserve” is overused by fans. Plus, Bandana Dee is a regular while Marx and Magolor are less frequent. Not to mention Bandana Dee has more importance as a character compared to those two. Bandana Dee is also not just any Waddle Dee there is.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Do you think Goombario deserves to matter more than just being a one-shot RPG spin-off character?

You say it like people wouldn't love Gommbario's return.

 

[Louie G.]

This is it right here. It's the fact that they act like Bandana Dee deserves to matter when so many other characters like Adeleine or even Marx or Magolor deserve it more.

Well Marx and Magolor don't really suit the role of Player 2 all that well, and for what it's worth Magolor gets a pretty decent amount of spotlight compared to other comparable characters in the series. I would have liked if Adeleine asserted herself as a mainstay after Kirby 64 but it's obviously a little easier to build another funny little blob off a model that already exists in-game than model and rig a human girl.

I would like all of them to get more spotlight, but this seems a bit ignorant of the role these characters would have to play and the general ease of development surrounding a playable Waddle Dee that probably brought him into the picture in the first place. The only character I feel like you could really argue taking Bandana Dee's place where it would make sense is Gooey - a similarly simple blob of a character who was intrinsically designed to be a Player 2.

Marx is my favorite Kirby character behind Dedede and even I would raise an eyebrow at them throwing Marx in as Kirby's BFF and co-op partner on a whim.

 

[Quillion]

Plus, Bandana Dee is a regular while Marx and Magolor are less frequent. Not to mention Bandana Dee has more importance as a character compared to those two.

That's the thing though, Bandana Dee doesn't deserve to be a regular in the Kirby series.

 

[CannonStreak]

You say it like people wouldn't love Gommbario's return.

Goombario has fans, huh? That makes me think he has something special that Marx and Magolor do not, does he?

 

[Quillion]

You say it like people wouldn't love Gommbario's return.

I can see the value in at least a cameo, but trust me, Goombario returning would make him overstay his welcome. Same with Goombella.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I can see the value in at least a cameo, but trust me, Goombario returning would make him overstay his welcome. Same with Goombella.

What is wrong with Goombario and Goombella?

People like them and people have been asking for their return for years.

 

[CannonStreak]

That's the thing though, Bandana Dee doesn't deserve to be a regular in the Kirby series.

Why? Because he is a Waddle Dee? If so, you will have to think of a better excuse. Bandana Dee is not like other Waddle Dees in more ways than one, so don’t be ridiculous, please.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

What the **** am I even reading?

 

[Quillion]

What is wrong with Goombario and Goombella?

People like them and people have been asking for their return for years.

Nothing; they're just more suited to being one-shots with very limited spotlight as opposed to full-on recurring characters.

Even recurring characters need to have their finale from time to time. Look at everyone who appreciates how Mother Brain and Ridley are gone for good in the Metroid series.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Why? Because he is a Waddle Dee? If so, you will have to think of a better excuse. Bandana Dee is not like other Waddle Dees in more ways than one, so don’t be ridiculous, please.

That would not be the reason Quill would give. He thinks there needs to be more Piranha Plants in the game, so I really don't get why the Waddle Dee would be an issue.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Ridley misses one game and he's gone for good?
Even though they made a point to add him in a remake of a game that didn't have him in the first place?

Come on now.

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

That's the thing though, Bandana Dee doesn't deserve to be a regular in the Kirby series.

We're really using that word in regard to newcomer discussion in current year, are we?

 

[Quillion]

That would not be the reason Quill would give. He thinks there needs to be more Piranha Plants in the game, so I really don't get why the Waddle Dee would be an issue.

TBF, I do want an actual enemy Goomba in Smash so it can revel in its own basicness, plus it's such an important and prominent enemy in Mario.

My issue is more that Kumazaki made a poor choice in making Bandana Dee as prominent as he is in his own series.

 

[CannonStreak]

Nothing; they're just more suited to being one-shots with very limited spotlight as opposed to full-on recurring characters.

Even recurring characters need to have their finale from time to time. Look at everyone who appreciates how Mother Brain and Ridley are gone for good in the Metroid series.

People still love Ridley and maybe Mother Brain. That said, they have been in more games with big roles. Marx and Magolor have been in one game with a big role, with appearances in other games where they have not been so important. At least Bandana Dee has been in more games while having important roles in them.

 

[Louie G.]

Even recurring characters need to have their finale from time to time. Look at everyone who appreciates how Mother Brain and Ridley are gone for good in the Metroid series.

This is almost too ridiculous to argue about but in short, Ridley continued to appear in games for 20 years and is only now missing out on major titles because he has canonically died. He'll probably be in Prime 4. Unless you want Bandana Dee to die in a spectacular fashion, something not befitting of the Kirby series unless we're talking about villains like Marx or Magolor who you... want to come back, so that wouldn't make sense anyway.

People aren't glad Mother Brain and Ridley are gone for petty reasons like they don't "deserve" to be there, and for the record they aren't explicitly "glad" they're gone either. Metroid's story progresses in a way that justifies it. Kirby's does not, at least not in the same context. I guess it's okay to feel a little spiteful that Bandana Dee stuck around and Gooey / Adeleine didn't, but just stick with admitting that it's a petty personal thing and not trying to justify it with silly excuses like this.

 

[Quillion]

Look, I fully expect Bandana Dee to be on the table to be in Smash.

I also dread the idea because they made such a bland character prominent in his own series. THAT is the mistake. It's with the source material, not with Smash itself.

 

[Louie G.]

I also dread the idea because they made such a bland character prominent in his own series. THAT is the mistake.

Genuine question, how do you feel about Toad?

 

[Will]

Yes, the fact that making him as prominent as he is being THE biggest mistake in an otherwise excellent modern era of Kirby.

I think Quillion's probably just mad that Bandana Dee is undeniably the most prominent and thus most likely Kirby newcomer in a sea of candidates that are vastly more interesting and diverse.

He isn’t even a bad choice. His SSF2 incarnation proved to me how unique he could be. We don’t have a short-range spear user.

Yeah that’s right I already prepared against the mother****ers who were gonna act like Byleth fulfills the role, yall ain’t slick.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Including Bandana Dee as the brand-new Kirby inclusion probably shouldn't be coined as a "deserve". I would love to have a new Kirby fighter, due to the extremely long time it's taken to get one, and how increasingly obvious it's become how dated Kirby's representation in Smash is. But there are plenty of other ways the next Smash could solve Kirby's mishaps, without necessarily resorting to the fighter route.

Dee probably has a good chance of being added to Smash, and I can see a few ways this could work well. But I just don't like how much people bottleneck his potential inclusion as an all-encompassing scenario, without considering other options. Though, I also somewhat suspect that Magolor has the best chance of joining, not Dee.

 

[Quillion]

Genuine question, how do you feel about Toad?

He works mainly as the Mario franchise as a whole treats him: a whole race with several specific characters to serve different purposes in the main series, and a definite "composite" character in the spin-offs.

Like seriously, SMB2 aside, there's no real concrete Toad in the main series as seen in the spin-offs, to the point that when 3D World tried to revive SMB2's roster, they went for NSMB's Blue Toad instead.

 

[fogbadge]

Quillion will you please stop trying to pass your opinions off as facts

 

[Guynamednelson]

But I just don't like how much people bottleneck his potential inclusion as an all-encompassing scenario, without considering other options.

Well even without considering Bandana Dee's track record, Waddle Dees in general are promoted as one of the most significant Kirby characters alongside Meta Knight and Dedede:

星のカービィポータル

「星のカービィ」の公式ポータルサイトです。

www.kirby.jp

This page on the Kirby website is a good example, as well as all the Waddle Dee imagery/merch you can find on the official Xitter account:

https://twitter.com/Kirby_JP

Hell I wouldn't be surprised if someone who doesn't know about Bandana Dee would still recognize him through...every part of his design that isn't his bandana and spear.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I get off work only to see Bandana Waddle Dee slander. In the year 2024. By someone who unironically thinks one-offs like Marx or Magolor should get in before the Luigi to Kirby's Mario.

I hate it here sometimes...

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Well even without considering Bandana Dee's track record, Waddle Dees in general are promoted as one of the most significant Kirby characters alongside Meta Knight and Dedede:

星のカービィポータル

「星のカービィ」の公式ポータルサイトです。

www.kirby.jp

This page on the Kirby website is a good example, as well as all the Waddle Dee imagery/merch you can find on the official Xitter account:

https://twitter.com/Kirby_JP

Hell I wouldn't be surprised if someone who doesn't know about Bandana Dee would still recognize him through...every part of his design that isn't his bandana and spear.

Then put Waddle Dee in with a Bandana Dee alt. That's an idea I can back rather happily, TBH.

 

[SPEN18]

You know, I tend to like it better when a series has a consistent villain.
A big boy like Bowser, and how K. Rool used to be. Or even just like Star Wolf where they're never the big bad but they're recurring adversaries that help tie the universe together across multiple games.
I get with Metroid specifically, Ridley's reappearances have at times ended up causing faults in the writing, or feeling very shoehorned in. But I don't think that's the fault of Ridley or of recurring villains in general. In that case it's more how Ridley wasn't originally planned to be as prominent, and how the structure of the Metroid timeline isn't so much built around him. If you set it up and execute it correctly, Ridley could be amazing as a recurring boss who's never the big bad but always has a reason to show up whenever Samus is there. Anyway, hopefully they find a way to do Ridley right in MP4. I'd love to see Kraid again, too, especially if there's more they can do with him in a 3D fight.

 

[Will]

He works mainly as the Mario franchise as a whole treats him: a whole race with several specific characters to serve different purposes in the main series, and a definite "composite" character in the spin-offs.

Like seriously, SMB2 aside, there's no real concrete Toad in the main series as seen in the spin-offs, to the point that when 3D World tried to revive SMB2's roster, they went for NSMB's Blue Toad instead.

They put this game on three systems.

Even Toadette is there; a perfect, viable alt/Echo.

 

[Quillion]

They put this game on three systems.

View attachment 384755

Even Toadette is there; a perfect, viable alt/Echo.

You missed the point. The red-spotted, blue-vested Toad as seen in the spin-offs doesn't exist as anything more than a whole general race in the main series.

Captain Toad is just one of many Toads with different roles from the main series. The most prominent of them all, but still.

 

[superprincess]

He works mainly as the Mario franchise as a whole treats him: a whole race with several specific characters to serve different purposes in the main series, and a definite "composite" character in the spin-offs.

Like seriously, SMB2 aside, there's no real concrete Toad in the main series as seen in the spin-offs, to the point that when 3D World tried to revive SMB2's roster, they went for NSMB's Blue Toad instead.

I'm pretty sure Blue Toad in NSMB was a reference to the Toad sprite in SMB2 being blue.

Also, a playable Red Toad wouldn't really work due to the existence of Captain Toad, whose identity was a bit more unclear back then.

Wait. How would SS Impa be water based?

Do you mean the OG Hyrule Warriors Impa? That one was water based.

Yeah, my bad, I mixed up the two. SS Impa did use some blue magic energy in that one scene so that explains my confusion.

I still stand by the statement that her inconsistency is keeping her out of Smash. You can't portray Impa one way or the other, because both are just as important as one another. So they opt to not do her at all.

Her OoT design would be pretty cool as a stronger & heavier but slower clone of Sheik though. I get that this archetype of clone usually sucks competitively (see: Ganondorf and Dr. Mario) but a stronger version of Sheik would be so fun. She's kind of notorious for not killing until like 180% lol.

 

[Louie G.]

He works mainly as the Mario franchise as a whole treats him: a whole race with several specific characters to serve different purposes in the main series, and a definite "composite" character in the spin-offs.

Do Waddle Dees not also do this? Waddle Dee Town in Forgotten Land certainly channels Toad Town a bit. In the older games there's Sailor Waddle Dee, there's a distinguished friendly Waddle Dee in Kirby 64, Kirby doesn't have quite as many opportunities to explore this as Mario does but I don't see how these roles are too different. As of late Waddle Dee is more synonymous with a friendly race than they are enemies and they work odd jobs.

I get off work only to see Bandana Waddle Dee slander. In the year 2024. By someone who unironically thinks one-offs like Marx or Magolor should get in before the Luigi to Kirby's Mario.

I hate it here sometimes...

Preferring Marx or Magolor is not the issue, I don't think we should miscontrue this conversation to be an issue with policing who people want in Smash Bros. I acknowledge Bandana Dee should technically come first, but I'd be much more happy to have the other two myself. I don't think someone would be wrong to not be personally interested in having Bandana Dee in Smash, there's no obligation to blindly follow hierarchy.

This is about criticism within his own series, where Marx and Magolor are not suitable replacements for Bandana Dee's role. Adeleine and Gooey are more relevant to this conversation, but this debate stems from a flawed mentality to begin with.

 

[Quillion]

Do Waddle Dees not also do this? Waddle Dee Town in Forgotten Land certainly channels Toad Town a bit. In the older games there's Sailor Waddle Dee, there's a distinguished friendly Waddle Dee in Kirby 64, Kirby doesn't have quite as many opportunities to explore this as Mario does but I don't see how these roles are too different. As of late Waddle Dee is more synonymous with a friendly race than they are enemies.

Let's wait until that becomes the norm after Forgotten Land. Wouldn't be surprised if Waddle Dees become Kirby's Toads instead of Goombas from that point forward though.

Heck, even with Bandana Dee, I think he would have potential if they give him a life of his own beyond being a satellite to Dedede and Kirby, and properly making him the counterpart to Captain Toad. Even Mario Galaxy did a better job of giving Captain Toad a life of his own separate from Mario and the entire Toad race than RtDL did with BDee.

 

[fogbadge]

You missed the point. The red-spotted, blue-vested Toad as seen in the spin-offs doesn't exist as anything more than a whole general race in the main series.

Captain Toad is just one of many Toads with different roles from the main series. The most prominent of them all, but still.

why must you say such cruel things

 

[Quillion]

why must you say such cruel things

Bro, I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing.

Just saying: the spin-off Toad and the many Toad characters of the main-series are tangential but separate entities.

 

[Louie G.]

Heck, even with Bandana Dee, I think he would have potential if they give him a life of his own beyond being a satellite to Dedede and Kirby, and properly making him the counterpart to Captain Toad. Even Mario Galaxy did a better job of giving Captain Toad a life of his own separate from Mario and the entire Toad race than RtDL did with BDee.

I actually find this to be a really reasonable criticism that I'm almost inclined to agree with. Mapping out the history of the three major supporting characters last night, I realized Bandana Dee is technically prominent via co-op roles and spinoff appearances but still lacks a really strong independent focus in the mainline titles. I wish Forgotten Land had a little side mode where you could blitz through the game as him like Meta Knightmare in the past.

I think there's potential to let Bandana Dee be further involved in stories and build his personality to operate more independently, which is something we can easily end up seeing in the near future. Maybe a further emphasized focus on co-op in Forgotten Land's inevitable sequel would make him pop a little more too.