Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[smashkirby]

Less likely then Goku IMO
View attachment 384637

Is it wrong to admit that part of why I want Goku in Smash is partially because of all the Dragon Ball jokes? Dare I say it, I think such things would actually BOLSTER this Goku's notoriety in Smash. My God, if they could actually get Masako Nozawa herself to voice this one in Smash...

I don't think Excitebiker would need ramps. I think things have evolved enough since Melee in terms of what's considered workable that there wouldn't be an issue with Excitebiker jumping.
Here's how I see it: the front wheel comes off the ground first, bringing the bike into a wheelie-like position, and then the entire bike lifts off of the back wheel. Pretty seamless. It would be defying physics, but not any more than literally every other character does; the important thing is I think this animation would be pretty smooth, and works from a dash or stand-still (I'd mock it up with the NES sprite if I had such time).

Speaking of ramps, though, an Excitebike stage would also be pretty rad and they could have some fun with the layout

Actually, that's not a bad idea. Ngl, I was just thinking maybe Excitebiker's... motorbike would have some sort of 'special suspension system' that allows the biker to hop around without ramps and whatnot.

Okay, for real. It's 2024.

We have a nameless Piranha Plant on the roster.

Can we please stop insisting that Toad and Bandana Waddle Dee (and I'll throw Kamek in there) aren't defined individuals? I can at least understand Toad and since he shares his name with his race but c'mon, Bandana Waddle Dee literally is the only member of his species with that name. If he wasn't just called Waddle Dee in Return to Dreamland (something the remake changed by the way), no one would think he was just some random mook.

Toad and Kamek had starring roles in a major motion picture. They're named and distinct individuals.

I'm starting to question if this is a troll at this point. You don't have to want or like any of these characters, but let's at least acknowledge that the actually ARE characters.



If Yoshi wasn't included in 1999, I'd swear we have this argument for him of all characters.

If I may say so, Shinya Kumazaki (current producer of the Kirby series, basically the 'Sakurai/Shimomura' of modern Kirby) himself has even gone on record via a Star Allies-era interview, saying that Bandana Waddle Dee is the same bandana-wearing Waddle Dee throughout each and every one of his various appearances over the years.

For that matter, the Kirby light novels even go further with this, with Bandana Dee going off to help Kirby rescue one of their friends from the Mage-Sisters and asks another one of Dedede's Waddle Dees to assist him by wearing said bandana while he's gone and attend to Dedede until he gets back, having him pretend to be him.
Just an hour into the ruse, and Dedede can immediately tell the Waddle Dee wearing the bandana ISN'T Bandana Waddle Dee, given how he's TERRIBLE at attending to Dedede's demands. The REAL Bandee has FAR more experience working under Dedede, so he's learned how to keep up with his boss' behavior.

On a heartwarming note, Kirby even makes it clear that he can locate Bandana Waddle Dee from among Dedede's entire army, even WITHOUT his bandana, so there's also that.

 

[Will]

For that matter, the Kirby light novels even go further

Pause everything you just said. The Kirby what now?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

My God, if they could actually get Masako Nozawa herself to voice this one in Smash...

Let's make a compromise and just have Gallantmon. She uses the Goku voice for that anyway.

 

[NintenRob]

On the topic of Kirby and Bandana Waddle Dee, I want to a scenario by you all, a "what if" if you will.


Let's say the very first Kirby game ever released, is Kirby Return to Dreamland, rest of the series never happened. The game is still successful and Kirby franchise is kicked off. Kirby is added as the sole newcomer from this franchise in Smash Wii U. He remains that way in Ultimate as well.

Meanwhile, the rest of the Kirby franchise remains the same. You got Triple Deluxe and Planet Robobot on 3DS, Star Allies and Forgotten Land on Switch. A bunch of other smaller titles spread across the systems.

Now as we speculate as we look to the next Smash Bros game, all eyes are on a second Kirby character. Who do you add??


Because there is a very solid argument to be made that you Bandana Waddle Dee before King Dedede and Meta Knight

now obviously, that doesn't necessarily mean he would, both Dedede and Meta Knight have had dedicated post game adventures. However Bandana Waddle Dee has set himself up and established himself as Kirby's player 2, his answer to Luigi. The same Luigi who got in before Peach and Bowser.

While Bandana Waddle Dee has yet to get his own secondary adventure, he has set himself up as consistent mainstay during every primary adventure. Meta Knight missed out on Triple Deluxe and King Dedede was barely in Planet Robobot. They both missed out on Rainbow Curse while Bandana Dee was playable. In Star Allies, you unlock Bandana Dee before Dedede and Meta Knight. And he's the only other playable character in Forgotten Land, even present during the opening and ending of the game.


So let me ask you, in this alternative timeline, who do you add first? Because imo, while maybe he doesn't get in before King Dedede, he most likely would before Meta Knight.

 

[SPEN18]

Actually, that's not a bad idea. Ngl, I was just thinking maybe Excitebiker's... motorbike would have some sort of 'special suspension system' that allows the biker to hop around without ramps and whatnot.

Yeah not an expert on bikes here but it's like a motocross bike, so yes it probably has something like that. In the game you can definitely hop on one wheel; actually, if you watch people playing who actually know what they're doing, you'll see that you can achieve amazingly high bounces off the tire, which can lead to some crazy fast times. But anyway I really don't think it'd look wrong at all for the bike to just be able to jump from a stop in Smash, even to a fairly great height.

 

[Louie G.]

So let me ask you, in this alternative timeline, who do you add first?

I mean, I'm inherently biased, but it's still gotta be Dedede. I suppose Bandana Dee may have the advantage of being easier to animate, so if they wanted to opt for someone a bit simpler first then there could be a case to be made. Think like Luigi, if we were starting entirely from scratch. But Dedede is still the number two. Another variable is if BWD is quantified using the Waddle Dee species as a whole, which can be argued in his favor, but I'm judging him on an individual basis.

In RTDL, they've all got pretty equivalent roles. We're at equal standing. Then it's Triple Deluxe, and Dedede plays a MASSIVE role in that game. He's a major part of the core conflict, he's the penultimate boss fight and he assists you in the final fight. We've got the whole dynamic between Kirby and Dedede established here, and to top it off we even get an extra mode dedicated to him. And post game, you get to play that whole Meta Knightmare-esque campaign as Dedede. Things are looking good. He also gets prominent rival / antagonist roles in side games like Blowout Blast and Battle Royale.

Then Robobot comes around and well... Dedede is still there, or at least acknowledged in a boss fight, but now Meta Knight steps in as the central supporting character. Much of what we establish with Dedede in the previous game is carried right over to Meta Knight now. The Halberd is a major part of the final act and he's got his own side campaign. So now, Meta Knight has been re-established as a major force too. Bandana Dee is around and plays a minor supporting role, but he hasn't really caught his big break yet. He's a passive, assistive role. I think he's still pretty squarely in fourth place. It's worth mentioning that sometime in between, Rainbow Curse also released and features Bandana Dee as P2. Dedede and Meta Knight do not show up - so this is Dee's biggest independent break, although it's not a "major" Kirby title.

Then it's Star Allies for the main series, and they all come back. Just like RTDL, the three of them fulfill pretty much equivalent roles. Except, naturally, Dedede and Meta Knight are fought as bosses and Bandana Dee is not. I wouldn't really hold that against him. In Forgotten Land, Dedede returns as a major story presence but Bandana Dee is firmly established as the player 2. His role is unobtrusive and comes mostly down to whether or not you're playing co-op, but he is the only other playable character. I wish he had his own side mode like the other two, I feel like that would have made his role a bit more centralized. Meta Knight also has a much less involved role this time around since he's just a character you fight in the Arena in Waddle Dee Town. Compared to Dedede being a central part of the story throughout the whole thing.

Which leads us to the present. Dedede is the clear winner here, with Bandana Dee being silently present throughout the whole thing and Meta Knight's presence being loudly known in smaller bursts. I would still put Meta Knight above Dee personally, just because mapping this out showed me that Bandana Dee lacks any prominent roles in major, mainline titles that aren't shared with Dedede and Meta Knight. His Player 2 status is not something to be ignored, and he does have that in a few games the other two don't, but I don't know if it trumps the more amplified prominence of Meta Knight and the cool factor + moveset potential that would likely lead to him being a more popular choice. I feel like Bandana Dee is decidedly different than Luigi too, but I can't really explain why. I guess his presence is often more understated, unless the whole gang is playable together.

So yeah, as expected it's gonna be King Dedede >> Meta Knight > Bandana Dee. But this was a cool question!

 

[Ivander]

Is it wrong to admit that part of why I want Goku in Smash is partially because of all the Dragon Ball jokes? Dare I say it, I think such things would actually BOLSTER this Goku's notoriety in Smash. My God, if they could actually get Masako Nozawa herself to voice this one in Smash...

How about we put....This Goku in Smash!

Make Goku III an Alternate Costume for Goku!

Than we make Nintendo's Goku an Echo Fighter of Goku!

So we get Three Gokus in Smash Bros!

 

[HyperSomari64]

How about we put....This Goku in Smash!

Was this Capcom's only attempt to make an animal-based mascot platformer?

 

[Ivander]

Was this Capcom's only attempt to make an animal-based mascot platformer?

SonSon's not really a platformer, instead being more of a auto-scrolling shooter with light platformer elements, nothing like Super Mario Bros and later games. If anything, their animal-based mascot platformer was, ironically, DuckTales.

 

[Laniv]

Fascinating take, I’m genuinely curious how that is. Because I’m the opposite, I think Peach is up there with the very best designed characters on the roster.

I wouldn’t care if we removed the meat shield, but in every other area I think she’s very creatively and uniquely implemented. Her float is one of the original Smash “gimmicks” and still works nicely, she plays unlike anyone else to this day. And I think Peach is a pretty freeform character as far as moveset potential goes, pulling from Mario 2 and RPG still feels fitting enough.

It's like... 70% Toad and 30% Peach Bomber.

Like, for three straight games, Peach's neutral special was her holding a visibly unwilling Toad out in front of her to protect herself.

For a character who is sweet and kind and polite, yet not a pushover and fully capable of protecting herself, it's frankly bizarre to see. It's sorta funny, in a sense, but the concept of "haha she uses Toad as a meat shield" doesn't really hit that hard. Sorta like what superprincess said, I find it not just an offense to Toad, but to Peach (and Daisy) as well. They changed the animation in Ultimate but still, it's now Peach cowering while Toad takes the hit like a champ; it's only marginally better.

I also just want Toad to be playable in his own right, but you already knew that.

Peach Bomber, I can take or leave, but jeez, their choice for a side special really was "R. Mika reference". Eh, wouldn't be the first time.

But going back to Toad, if it were up to me, I'd lean into the heart theme and replace the move with spawning a heart that both counters physical attacks and reflects projectiles. Sorta like the heart item from Mario Kart Double Dash

 

[NintenRob]

I mean, I'm inherently biased, but it's still gotta be Dedede. I suppose Bandana Dee may have the advantage of being easier to animate, so if they wanted to opt for someone a bit simpler first then there could be a case to be made. Think like Luigi, if we were starting entirely from scratch. But Dedede is still the number two. Another variable is if BWD is quantified using the Waddle Dee species as a whole, which can be argued in his favor, but I'm judging him on an individual basis.

In RTDL, they've all got pretty equivalent roles. We're at equal standing. Then it's Triple Deluxe, and Dedede plays a MASSIVE role in that game. He's a major part of the core conflict, he's the penultimate boss fight and he assists you in the final fight. We've got the whole dynamic between Kirby and Dedede established here, and to top it off we even get an extra mode dedicated to him. And post game, you get to play that whole Meta Knightmare-esque campaign as Dedede. Things are looking good. He also gets prominent rival / antagonist roles in side games like Blowout Blast and Battle Royale.

Then Robobot comes around and well... Dedede is still there, or at least acknowledged in a boss fight, but now Meta Knight steps in as the central supporting character. Much of what we establish with Dedede in the previous game is carried right over to Meta Knight now. The Halberd is a major part of the final act and he's got his own side campaign. So now, Meta Knight has been re-established as a major force too. Bandana Dee is around and plays a minor supporting role, but he hasn't really caught his big break yet. He's a passive, assistive role. I think he's still pretty squarely in fourth place. It's worth mentioning that sometime in between, Rainbow Curse also released and features Bandana Dee as P2. Dedede and Meta Knight do not show up - so this is Dee's biggest independent break, although it's not a "major" Kirby title.

Then it's Star Allies for the main series, and they all come back. Just like RTDL, the three of them fulfill pretty much equivalent roles. Except, naturally, Dedede and Meta Knight are fought as bosses and Bandana Dee is not. I wouldn't really hold that against him. In Forgotten Land, Dedede returns as a major story presence but Bandana Dee is firmly established as the player 2. His role is unobtrusive and comes mostly down to whether or not you're playing co-op, but he is the only other playable character. I wish he had his own side mode like the other two, I feel like that would have made his role a bit more centralized. Meta Knight also has a much less involved role this time around since he's just a character you fight in the Arena in Waddle Dee Town. Compared to Dedede being a central part of the story throughout the whole thing.

Which leads us to the present. Dedede is the clear winner here, with Bandana Dee being silently present throughout the whole thing and Meta Knight's presence being loudly known in smaller bursts. I would still put Meta Knight above Dee personally, just because mapping this out showed me that Bandana Dee lacks any prominent roles in major, mainline titles that aren't shared with Dedede and Meta Knight. His Player 2 status is not something to be ignored, and he does have that in a few games the other two don't, but I don't know if it trumps the more amplified prominence of Meta Knight and the cool factor + moveset potential that would likely lead to him being a more popular choice. I feel like Bandana Dee is decidedly different than Luigi too, but I can't really explain why. I guess his presence is often more understated, unless the whole gang is playable together.

So yeah, as expected it's gonna be King Dedede >> Meta Knight > Bandana Dee. But this was a cool question!

Loved reading this, nice to see another take.

For me personally, I feel all those smaller titles help put Bandana Dee just above Meta Knight. In Battle Royale, he was THE main companion to Kirby and quite chatty too. In Kirby Fighters 2, while Meta Knight and Dedede team up in the story mode, Bandana Dee is there as a starter character. Of course no single appearance of Bandana Dee comes close to Meta Knights role in Planet Robobot so I guess it depends on what you value, Smash just seems to have a history of prioritising sidekicks before villains (Luigi, Diddy, Palutena, Zelda, Isabelle, Falco, Ken.) We even got a second version of Samus, before Ridley. The main exception to most of this Sephiroth. And I guess kinda Dedede and Meta Knight themselves? But that depends on who you count as a villain.

Honestly, it feels kinda similar to Tails Vs Knuckles, Shadow and Eggman.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Pause everything you just said. The Kirby what now?

Kirby light novels, did they stutter? They exist. I've seen the scans.

 

[Will]

Now that I think about it…

Toad… spores if you hit him. He doesn’t spore anyone in the Mario games…

Right?

 

[Sucumbio]

I always felt Peaches "hi-yah!" sound during side b fit with the kung fu aesthetic the Mario characters seem to have going on like Luigi's fsmash

 

[JOJONumber691]

Personally I’d love to see the next game adopt a new design for Peach visually. I think something like this fan art would be cool. I just think it would be a fitting refresh for Peach to wear a new outfit given all of her costumes in Showtime, especially the more action packed ones. At least make Swordfighter and Kung Fu costumes they’re so cool! An example seen below.

https://x.com/Maipeikko/status/1657031841491156999?s=20

 

[PinkFlare]

Personally I’d love to see the next game adopt a new design for Peach visually.

This but for the whole roster

 

[NintenRob]

This but for the whole roster

I.... Honestly kinda don't. While I don't mind some visual touch ups, like added extra details on Peach's dress. I'd rather keep their most iconic and core essential looks for their appearance in Smash. Stuff like Botw Link and Dread Samus I'd rather be alts than default.

 

[smashkirby]

Pause everything you just said. The Kirby what now?

That's right. They're pretty fun reads!

IMO, they provide what's probably the perfect visualization for a potential new Kirby anime. If I may also add, while I've always been fine with the idea of kirby talking (provided the voice ACTUALLY FITS HIM), these novels seem to be what fully sells folks on the idea that Kirby CAN speak in an extensive context, and it WOULDN'T be weird.

Kirby Novel Translations Masterpost

I’ll be updating this as more chapters are updated and translations are picked up! Kirby and the Dangerous Gourmet Mansion Kirby and the Big Panic in Gloomy Woods Kirby Meets the Squeak Squad Meta...

nyaagolor.tumblr.com

How about we put....This Goku in Smash!

Make Goku III an Alternate Costume for Goku!

Than we make Nintendo's Goku an Echo Fighter of Goku!

So we get Three Gokus in Smash Bros!

You know, I actually wouldn't be opposed to SonSon appearing in Smash. Granted, I'd prefer Nintendo's Goku before either SonSon, but still.

Yeah not an expert on bikes here but it's like a motocross bike, so yes it probably has something like that. In the game you can definitely hop on one wheel; actually, if you watch people playing who actually know what they're doing, you'll see that you can achieve amazingly high bounces off the tire, which can lead to some crazy fast times. But anyway I really don't think it'd look wrong at all for the bike to just be able to jump from a stop in Smash, even to a fairly great height.

Ngl, I'm picturing it now, and it's honestly pretty gosh darn funny to think about. Like, the motorbike is at a complete stop with the engine still running... and then it just rockets into the air. XD

On the topic of Kirby and Bandana Waddle Dee, I want to a scenario by you all, a "what if" if you will.


Let's say the very first Kirby game ever released, is Kirby Return to Dreamland, rest of the series never happened. The game is still successful and Kirby franchise is kicked off. Kirby is added as the sole newcomer from this franchise in Smash Wii U. He remains that way in Ultimate as well.

Meanwhile, the rest of the Kirby franchise remains the same. You got Triple Deluxe and Planet Robobot on 3DS, Star Allies and Forgotten Land on Switch. A bunch of other smaller titles spread across the systems.

Now as we speculate as we look to the next Smash Bros game, all eyes are on a second Kirby character. Who do you add??


Because there is a very solid argument to be made that you Bandana Waddle Dee before King Dedede and Meta Knight

now obviously, that doesn't necessarily mean he would, both Dedede and Meta Knight have had dedicated post game adventures. However Bandana Waddle Dee has set himself up and established himself as Kirby's player 2, his answer to Luigi. The same Luigi who got in before Peach and Bowser.

While Bandana Waddle Dee has yet to get his own secondary adventure, he has set himself up as consistent mainstay during every primary adventure. Meta Knight missed out on Triple Deluxe and King Dedede was barely in Planet Robobot. They both missed out on Rainbow Curse while Bandana Dee was playable. In Star Allies, you unlock Bandana Dee before Dedede and Meta Knight. And he's the only other playable character in Forgotten Land, even present during the opening and ending of the game.


So let me ask you, in this alternative timeline, who do you add first? Because imo, while maybe he doesn't get in before King Dedede, he most likely would before Meta Knight.

I mean, I'm inherently biased, but it's still gotta be Dedede. I suppose Bandana Dee may have the advantage of being easier to animate, so if they wanted to opt for someone a bit simpler first then there could be a case to be made. Think like Luigi, if we were starting entirely from scratch. But Dedede is still the number two. Another variable is if BWD is quantified using the Waddle Dee species as a whole, which can be argued in his favor, but I'm judging him on an individual basis.

In RTDL, they've all got pretty equivalent roles. We're at equal standing. Then it's Triple Deluxe, and Dedede plays a MASSIVE role in that game. He's a major part of the core conflict, he's the penultimate boss fight and he assists you in the final fight. We've got the whole dynamic between Kirby and Dedede established here, and to top it off we even get an extra mode dedicated to him. And post game, you get to play that whole Meta Knightmare-esque campaign as Dedede. Things are looking good. He also gets prominent rival / antagonist roles in side games like Blowout Blast and Battle Royale.

Then Robobot comes around and well... Dedede is still there, or at least acknowledged in a boss fight, but now Meta Knight steps in as the central supporting character. Much of what we establish with Dedede in the previous game is carried right over to Meta Knight now. The Halberd is a major part of the final act and he's got his own side campaign. So now, Meta Knight has been re-established as a major force too. Bandana Dee is around and plays a minor supporting role, but he hasn't really caught his big break yet. He's a passive, assistive role. I think he's still pretty squarely in fourth place. It's worth mentioning that sometime in between, Rainbow Curse also released and features Bandana Dee as P2. Dedede and Meta Knight do not show up - so this is Dee's biggest independent break, although it's not a "major" Kirby title.

Then it's Star Allies for the main series, and they all come back. Just like RTDL, the three of them fulfill pretty much equivalent roles. Except, naturally, Dedede and Meta Knight are fought as bosses and Bandana Dee is not. I wouldn't really hold that against him. In Forgotten Land, Dedede returns as a major story presence but Bandana Dee is firmly established as the player 2. His role is unobtrusive and comes mostly down to whether or not you're playing co-op, but he is the only other playable character. I wish he had his own side mode like the other two, I feel like that would have made his role a bit more centralized. Meta Knight also has a much less involved role this time around since he's just a character you fight in the Arena in Waddle Dee Town. Compared to Dedede being a central part of the story throughout the whole thing.

Which leads us to the present. Dedede is the clear winner here, with Bandana Dee being silently present throughout the whole thing and Meta Knight's presence being loudly known in smaller bursts. I would still put Meta Knight above Dee personally, just because mapping this out showed me that Bandana Dee lacks any prominent roles in major, mainline titles that aren't shared with Dedede and Meta Knight. His Player 2 status is not something to be ignored, and he does have that in a few games the other two don't, but I don't know if it trumps the more amplified prominence of Meta Knight and the cool factor + moveset potential that would likely lead to him being a more popular choice. I feel like Bandana Dee is decidedly different than Luigi too, but I can't really explain why. I guess his presence is often more understated, unless the whole gang is playable together.

So yeah, as expected it's gonna be King Dedede >> Meta Knight > Bandana Dee. But this was a cool question!

Loved reading this, nice to see another take.

For me personally, I feel all those smaller titles help put Bandana Dee just above Meta Knight. In Battle Royale, he was THE main companion to Kirby and quite chatty too. In Kirby Fighters 2, while Meta Knight and Dedede team up in the story mode, Bandana Dee is there as a starter character. Of course no single appearance of Bandana Dee comes close to Meta Knights role in Planet Robobot so I guess it depends on what you value, Smash just seems to have a history of prioritizing sidekicks before villains (Luigi, Diddy, Palutena, Zelda, Isabelle, Falco, Ken.) We even got a second version of Samus, before Ridley. The main exception to most of this Sephiroth. And I guess kinda Dedede and Meta Knight themselves? But that depends on who you count as a villain.

Honestly, it feels kinda similar to Tails Vs Knuckles, Shadow and Eggman.

If no one minds, I'd also like to add that Shinya Kumazaki appears to have quite a soft spot for the Waddle Dees in general. Like, to the point that he considers them to be the one of the 4 primary faces of the Kirby series as a whole.

Dare I say it, I honestly believe that it's because of him that the Waddle Dees in general are becoming far more prevalent in the Kirby franchise these days than they EVER were during Sakurai and Shimomura's tenure as Kirby producers.

With all of that being said, I have to admit that there IS a small part of me that pictures Kumazaki asking Sakurai to at least consider adding B.W.D. first.

 

[NintenRob]

That's right. They're pretty fun reads!

IMO, they provide what's probably the perfect visualization for a potential new Kirby anime. If I may also add, while I've always been fine with the idea of kirby talking (provided the voice ACTUALLY FITS HIM), these novels seem to be what fully sells folks on the idea that Kirby CAN speak in an extensive context, and it WOULDN'T be weird.

Kirby Novel Translations Masterpost

I’ll be updating this as more chapters are updated and translations are picked up! Kirby and the Dangerous Gourmet Mansion Kirby and the Big Panic in Gloomy Woods Kirby Meets the Squeak Squad Meta...

nyaagolor.tumblr.com

You know, I actually wouldn't be opposed to SonSon appearing in Smash. Granted, I'd prefer Nintendo's Goku before either SonSon, but still.



Ngl, I'm picturing it now, and it's honestly pretty gosh darn funny to think about. Like, the motorbike is at a complete stop with the engine still running... and then it just rockets into the air. XD





If no one minds, I'd also like to add that Shinya Kumazaki appears to have quite a soft spot for the Waddle Dees in general. Like, to the point that he considers them to be the one of the 4 primary faces of the Kirby series as a whole.

Dare I say it, I honestly believe that it's because of him that the Waddle Dees in general are becoming far more prevalent in the Kirby franchise these days than they EVER were during Sakurai and Shimomura's tenure as Kirby producers.

With all of that being said, I have to admit that there IS a small part of me that pictures Kumazaki asking Sakurai to at least consider adding B.W.D. first.

It's certainly a curious what if, that the more you dive into. The more there is to consider (like this is a timeline where Sakurai never worked on Kirby)


Overall, it's more so to highlight just how significant Bandana Waddle Dee has become to the Kirby franchise.

There are a lot of characters I want in Smash, but Bandana Waddle Dee is one the few who I think should be in Smash Bros.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Despite the fact that the two most hype additions from Ultimate did debut in the 2000's.

Simon and Hero are from the 80s.

Happy 10th Birthday to Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze!

Celebratory Windmill Hills!

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

This "generic mook/not actual character" argument is so silly when we have Yoshi and a literal Piranha Plant on the roster.

Piranha Plant shouldn't BE on the roster.

I thought the Peach Bomber was an outright hip attack, not an ass attack.

Peaches aren't hips.

 

[superprincess]

Can we not try to claim sexism just because a princess had a move where she uses a royal guard as a meat shield please?
Thank you.

I didn't say it's straight up sexist at all... it's just clearly comical and playing around female stereotypes, which Peach's whole character kinda does. But Nintendo has abandoned the damsel in distress archetype for her, which is clear from their descriptions of her lately. And her role in the Mario movie shows that she wants to protect the Toads, not cower behind them.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

As far as the West vs. Japan in picks, I think its a bit of a push. The West gets a lot of region oriented characters for them in the base game much of the time (Ridley, Little Mac, K Rool to an extent) while the newer DLC worldwide famous fighters do appeal to both areas, but tend to be somewhat more popular and rooted in genres historically bigger in Japan such as the JRPG.

To use a remarkably poor metaphor, the West gets to pick their favorite restaurant somewhat more often while its Japan that's usually picking the toppings when they go to the pizza place everyone likes.

Pretty much. I'm not sure if 3-4 characters finally getting in after decades of begging actually counts as the West taking precedence. Character selection has always felt very strongly Japan-focused imo, and in Smash 4 and in Ultimate DLC in particular.

But I'd also argue that Punch-Out and Murasame don't really work as a comparision to each other, at least past the "boxer popular in the US/samurai popular in Japan" parallelism.
For starters, Punch-Out is not just a single game but a full-fledged series, and a fairly storied one at that. The arcade game was allegedly a hit worldwide, and the NES version is a stone cold classic in the West. Then, the Wii installment was also a success and, having recently revived an already beloved series, it probably played a big part in Mac getting selected for Smash 4. The SNES game was also well-liked, though it doesn't get talked about as much. I'd argue that Punch-Out's standing in the West is actually closer to that of stuff like Starfox or F-Zero overall, + the Wii game released at the perfect time for Mac to get in Smash.
Murasame on the other hand is just one single game on the NES and a bunch of cameos way after the fact. I think a better parallel to Little Mac would be Marth in Melee.

Now if Takamaru gets another game all to his own (which would no doubt get localized nowadays) I think he'd become one of the most likely characters ever - though that in itself also feels kinda unlikely, with how conservative Nintendo seems to be with their IPs lately, at least to me, but that's another matter.

If I had to place my bets on a "retro" character, It would be Ayumi I think. Sakurai allegedly already considered her for Melee, and she got a recent revival. I have no idea how she could fight, but given she was already seriously considered I imagine she actually has something to work with?

 

[Oracle Link]

I don't really like the use of obsession here, it sounds condescending. You could say this very same thing about Nintendo series too, but nobody does.

Naturally the extremely popular third party series we already have in Smash are home to tons of beloved characters that people would be excited to see. I would, generally, rather see a new series represented too but I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. Grabbing another Sonic or Street Fighter character would probably come far easier than negotiating a brand new IP, and with those companies so ready and willing to contribute as is... if they want both, it's not a problem. They need to be judged on their own merits.

I don't think anyone saying they want Chun-Li, for example, would be upset at the prospect of pretty much anything else from Capcom's bountiful well of characters and properties. But Chun-Li is an immensely popular character who would have fans excited to see her cross over. She stands just as well as her own character as she does a "Street Fighter rep".

There are some series like Zelda or Sonic where people just want SOMETHING else, to counteract a sort of stagnation within their series, but on average people are asking for characters deliberately because they like them and have a personal attachment to them. And even in those aforementioned examples, fans haven’t quite rallied behind a single option but everyone has a preferred character. Knuckles has been my favorite Sonic character since I was a kid so he’s the one that I’d be most excited for.

And Kirby all three franchises got no new character since Brawl!
I think: Impa, BWD and Eggman would be decent choices!

 

[fogbadge]

Let's make a compromise and just have Gallantmon.

i'm listening

 

[NintenRob]

How would y'all feel if the next roster was primarily decided by a new highly ambitious story mode? With cutscenes and talking and such.

Meaning characters like Ness and Lucas are likely to be passed over for being primarily mute while someone like Shulk and Pyra are more likely to stick around.


Of course not all mute characters would be cut, Link would probably make that his primary characteristic. And I could see certain characters talking more often than they would normally, such as the Mario crew (something they've been experimenting a bit with lately anyway). Some could bring in their voices from anime adaptations and cartoons


Here's an example roster using only veterans

 

[RileyXY1]

How would y'all feel if the next roster was primarily decided by a new highly ambitious story mode? With cutscenes and talking and such.

Meaning characters like Ness and Lucas are likely to be passed over for being primarily mute while someone like Shulk and Pyra are more likely to stick around.


Of course not all mute characters would be cut, Link would probably make that his primary characteristic. And I could see certain characters talking more often than they would normally, such as the Mario crew (something they've been experimenting a bit with lately anyway). Some could bring in their voices from anime adaptations and cartoons


Here's an example roster using only veterans

I think that Ness can work in this kind of environment. In fact one of my ideas is to give him his own Palutena's Guidance type Easter Egg.

 

[fogbadge]

How would y'all feel if the next roster was primarily decided by a new highly ambitious story mode? With cutscenes and talking and such.

i'd say it be easier to change how the colour spectrum works

 

[chocolatejr9]

How would y'all feel if the next roster was primarily decided by a new highly ambitious story mode? With cutscenes and talking and such.

Meaning characters like Ness and Lucas are likely to be passed over for being primarily mute while someone like Shulk and Pyra are more likely to stick around.


Of course not all mute characters would be cut, Link would probably make that his primary characteristic. And I could see certain characters talking more often than they would normally, such as the Mario crew (something they've been experimenting a bit with lately anyway). Some could bring in their voices from anime adaptations and cartoons


Here's an example roster using only veterans

I dunno, I feel like part of the reason why MVCI's roster fell short was because they built it around the story mode. That, and... well, everything else wrong with the game's roster.

 

[PinkFlare]

I.... Honestly kinda don't.

It is not something likely to happen in any scenario, especially with Sakurai as director.

But it is 100% something I would immediately do if I was directing

 

[JOJONumber691]

How would y'all feel if the next roster was primarily decided by a new highly ambitious story mode? With cutscenes and talking and such.

Meaning characters like Ness and Lucas are likely to be passed over for being primarily mute while someone like Shulk and Pyra are more likely to stick around.


Of course not all mute characters would be cut, Link would probably make that his primary characteristic. And I could see certain characters talking more often than they would normally, such as the Mario crew (something they've been experimenting a bit with lately anyway). Some could bring in their voices from anime adaptations and cartoons


Here's an example roster using only veterans

I wouldn’t mind but you’d need to cut most of the third parties and every avatar except for Robin and maybe Inkling, but even then you can just swap Inkling out with Agent 8. But honestly I have actually thought of this before and want to flesh out the concept one day.

 

[Oracle Link]

You know recently i focused my attention on pushing zelda Characters like "THEM" So how about Kirby again eh?
I mean yeah i repeat topics but this is like the best way i know to push for those... Anyways!

So Banadana Dee!
I think of all the zelda and kirby cast (not in smash) hes the most deserving! i mean dont get me wrong impa should be in smash too! But sadly Sheik minimizes her chances and zelda is more likely to get a promo pick than kirby Probably! Also BWD is playable more often!
So He Has to be in the next smash (if its roster is big enough) Right? Like the main thing holding him back were:
1. Sakurais potential opinion on him
and 2. The Hate of some uneducated Smash Fans!
But now that a really popular 3d Kirby Releases and BWd got even more (playable) Appearences there is like no reason not to include him right?
I mean yeah a lot of people have their own favourites but in my opinion picking a character everyone likes a decent ammount is better than picking someone like MArx who would be disliked by a decent portion of kirby fans! Or Dark matter in my case!

If you use Smashes Patented "oh this move is used by someone related" Way Of handling movesets he has so many moves and attacks smash has never/ rarely done before Spear, Parasol and beam!

 

[superprincess]

I used to be a really big Impa supporter until recently but have kind of fallen off the train as of late. The problem with Impa is that she doesn't feel like a concrete "character"... she moreso feels like multiple separate characters who all happen to share the same name. She's a protector of the royal family in every game, but there's no clear answer as to how she'd fight. OoT Impa would presumably be a Sheik derivative. SS would be a water-based ninja which we already have in Greninja. AoC is non-canon, and we know how Smash treats the Warriors games.

Also, no matter which version is included, people would be confused. OoT and SS Impa are irrelevant right now, and while her fans from that era would be happy, newer fans would wonder why she looks like that. Imagine someone who's only played BotW/TotK seeing the young "Impa" in Smash. They'd barely recognize her and probably be confused. On the contrary, including grandma Impa would probably disappoint the fans of the games that portray her as a badass warrior. There's no correct way to portray the concept of Impa. They could take one of them and prop her up as the Impa, but it simply wouldn't be. Because the character isn't one idea.

 

[Quillion]

But now that a really popular 3d Kirby Releases and BWd got even more (playable) Appearences there is like no reason not to include him right?

Yes, the fact that making him as prominent as he is being THE biggest mistake in an otherwise excellent modern era of Kirby.

 

[fogbadge]

I used to be a really big Impa supporter until recently but have kind of fallen off the train as of late. The problem with Impa is that she doesn't feel like a concrete "character"... she moreso feels like multiple separate characters who all happen to share the same name. She's a protector of the royal family in every game, but there's no clear answer as to how she'd fight. OoT Impa would presumably be a Sheik derivative. SS would be a water-based ninja which we already have in Greninja. AoC is non-canon, and we know how Smash treats the Warriors games.

Also, no matter which version is included, people would be confused. OoT and SS Impa are irrelevant right now, and while her fans from that era would be happy, newer fans would wonder why she looks like that. Imagine someone who's only played BotW/TotK seeing the young "Impa" in Smash. They'd barely recognize her and probably be confused. On the contrary, including grandma Impa would probably disappoint the fans of the games that portray her as a badass warrior. There's no correct way to portray the concept of Impa. They could take one of them and prop her up as the Impa, but it simply wouldn't be. Because the character isn't one idea.

well that's wrong on several levels. firstly how did you get water based for SS? and how exactly are claiming smash treats the warrior games? last i checked that version of impa had a cameo in ultimate. and both Oot and SS are on the switch that's hardly irrelevant and even there smash is a game about history there's no such thing as irrelevant.

the idea of a "correct" way to represent impa doesn't matter in smash. not in a series where characters have moves from different characters in their games or made up moves entirely.

also her being very different in every game hardly matter cause the same is also true of zelda. sure she looks pretty similar each time but compare the personalities of the incarnation we currently have in smash to the previous one we had. quite different

 

[Louie G.]

Yes, the fact that making him as prominent as he is being THE biggest mistake in an otherwise excellent modern era of Kirby.

What does this even mean, he’s just the character they landed on as the consistent “co-op guy”. It’s not like they keep shoehorning him into stories where he doesn’t belong. You can play most of these games and not have to face him in any major capacity compared to Dedede or Meta Knight.

I think the biggest mistake of the modern era of Kirby was the stagnation / complacency that started to hit around Star Allies, not that there’s a little waddle dee in a bandana you can play as if you want. Fortunately that previous issue has been mended by now but saying the very unobtrusive presence of one character is the series’ biggest mistake either means this is the best series ever made or that issue is being blown out of proportion.

 

[Dinoman96]

I think Quillion's probably just mad that Bandana Dee is undeniably the most prominent and thus most likely Kirby newcomer in a sea of candidates that are vastly more interesting and diverse.

 

[Louie G.]

I think Quillion's probably just mad that Bandana Dee is undeniably the most prominent and thus most likely Kirby newcomer in a sea of candidates that are vastly more interesting and diverse.

Sure, but that’s not a problem with the Kirby series directly. It’s not really their responsibility to account for which character would be the most interesting in Smash and boost their prominence accordingly, HAL is more keen to that than most but it’s certainly not their priority nor should it be.

Bandana Dee barely scratches my top 5 Kirby characters for Smash, if even. But I just think extending that feeling toward the “modern era” as a whole just because you don’t like the prospect of him in Smash would be pretty ridiculous.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

now obviously, that doesn't necessarily mean he would, both Dedede and Meta Knight have had dedicated post game adventures. However Bandana Waddle Dee has set himself up and established himself as Kirby's player 2, his answer to Luigi. The same Luigi who got in before Peach and Bowser.

I'm not going to answer to the whole thing since Louie G. pretty much nails my opinion on the topic, but I wanted to add something to this part specifically. Yeah, Luigi did got in first, but Bowser was actually planned for Smash 64 and according to Sakurai some work was actually done on him. So my guess is that with more time, Bowser would actually made it in at the same time as Luigi, and arguably even before Luigi if it wasn't for the fact that Luigi was an easy clone.

I.... Honestly kinda don't. While I don't mind some visual touch ups, like added extra details on Peach's dress. I'd rather keep their most iconic and core essential looks for their appearance in Smash. Stuff like Botw Link and Dread Samus I'd rather be alts than default.

If anything I'd rather have Dread Samus be the default if it means that Other M Samus finally disappeared.

How would y'all feel if the next roster was primarily decided by a new highly ambitious story mode? With cutscenes and talking and such.

Meaning characters like Ness and Lucas are likely to be passed over for being primarily mute while someone like Shulk and Pyra are more likely to stick around.


Of course not all mute characters would be cut, Link would probably make that his primary characteristic. And I could see certain characters talking more often than they would normally, such as the Mario crew (something they've been experimenting a bit with lately anyway). Some could bring in their voices from anime adaptations and cartoons


Here's an example roster using only veterans

Honestly I would really hate this. I think that limiting the roster to a mode that have basically no replay value instead of the main fighting gameplay is a bad idea. I hate when Netherrealm does the same thing (adding characters in Mortal kombat or Injustice based on the story they want to tell instead of choosing the actual cool and fun characters).

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I think the biggest mistake of the modern era of Kirby was the stagnation / complacency that started to hit around Star Allies

That's not where it started. Star Allies was the one that got slammed the hardest, but it was a result of a complacency that had been slowly growing in the years prior.

 

[SPEN18]

I used to be a really big Impa supporter until recently but have kind of fallen off the train as of late. The problem with Impa is that she doesn't feel like a concrete "character"... she moreso feels like multiple separate characters who all happen to share the same name. She's a protector of the royal family in every game, but there's no clear answer as to how she'd fight. OoT Impa would presumably be a Sheik derivative. SS would be a water-based ninja which we already have in Greninja. AoC is non-canon, and we know how Smash treats the Warriors games.

Also, no matter which version is included, people would be confused. OoT and SS Impa are irrelevant right now, and while her fans from that era would be happy, newer fans would wonder why she looks like that. Imagine someone who's only played BotW/TotK seeing the young "Impa" in Smash. They'd barely recognize her and probably be confused. On the contrary, including grandma Impa would probably disappoint the fans of the games that portray her as a badass warrior. There's no correct way to portray the concept of Impa. They could take one of them and prop her up as the Impa, but it simply wouldn't be. Because the character isn't one idea.

If she got in Smash, I think Impa would probably just get a brand new design, probably mostly based on the OoT one but not exactly. Kind of like what she got in the original Hyrule Warriors, not that design specifically of course but a new one.

I don't think people would be confused, except for hypercasuals who are confused at pretty much everyone except the really big faces. Impa is a well-known character from Ocarina of Time and Zelda broadly, so I don't think obscurity is an issue here.