Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Mushroomguy12]

Happy 10th Birthday to Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze!

 

[Louie G.]

If Yoshi wasn't included in 1999, I'd swear we have this argument for him of all characters.

I was gonna mention this too, lol. If we really want to play that card we ought to at least be consistent.

I could understand people not thinking of them as the most exciting available options, but saying they aren't actual characters is just ignorance for ignorance sake at this point. Bandana Dee has been a mainstay for over a decade now and has had a defined character since KSSU.

I know this hypothetical is expecting a lot, but if he wasn't actually a Waddle Dee and was part of some new species, with no other changes made to his role in the series, there would be no argument to be had about his validity. Like if that role was dealt to Gooey instead, and Gooey kept showing up in every single Kirby game and slotting in as P2 consistently. Everyone would be wondering, where's Gooey? That guy deserves it by now!

 

[Will]

If Yoshi wasn't included in 1999, I'd swear we have this argument for him of all characters.

Unless that Yoshi has a piece of headwear to mark a distinct appearance, there’s no way I’d suppor-

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ​

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I was gonna mention this too, lol. If we really want to play that card we ought to at least be consistent.

I could understand people not thinking of them as the most exciting available options, but saying they aren't actual characters is just ignorance for ignorance sake at this point. Bandana Dee has been a mainstay for over a decade now and has had a defined character since KSSU.

I know this hypothetical is expecting a lot, but if he wasn't actually a Waddle Dee and was part of some new species, with no other changes made to his role in the series, there would be no argument to be had about his validity. Like if that role was dealt to Gooey instead, and Gooey kept showing up in every single Kirby game and slotting in as P2 consistently. Everyone would be wondering, where's Gooey? That guy deserves it by now!

I had a dream where Adeleine and Gooey were included as P3 and P4 in Kirby and the Forgotten Land and then became mainstays in the series and got huge Smash followings and it was a thing of beauty.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Happy 10th Birthday to Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze!

I actually felt that this time.

 

[superprincess]

This "generic mook/not actual character" argument is so silly when we have Yoshi and a literal Piranha Plant on the roster.

If Yoshi hadn't been in Smash since the original game, I bet we'd be having the same conversation about him right now. He's literally just as generic as Toad, but you never see people argue against his inclusion because duh, it's Yoshi.

An interesting tidbit about Toad's genericness in Smash is that on the Move List, Peach's Toad is described as the Toad, and referred to with masculine pronouns. Daisy's Toad on the other hand is referred to as "a Toad" and has neutral pronouns (its). So the Smash developers clearly know the distinction between the singular Toad character and his same-species lookalikes. Yoshi's deal is the exact same, except Yoshi is already playable so nobody contests it.

I do wonder what Toad/Bandana Waddle Dee antis have to say about Piranha Plant. Because that's the biggest dent in their theory that "generic non-characters" can't make it in. People just want reasons to reject characters.

 

[Guynamednelson]

If Yoshi wasn't included in 1999, I'd swear we have this argument for him of all characters.

Hell, in games where you can play as Toad and Bandana Dee, you're always playing as the Toad and the Bandana Dee when you pick them.

In Yoshi's Island, you're arguably only playing as the Yoshi on Stage 1 of every world, and Bowser's Castle. Baby Mario gets handed to a different Yoshi at the end of every stage, and you're controlling whatever color Yoshi the game decided on instead of the Yoshi.

 

[Will]

I do wonder what Toad/Bandana Waddle Dee antis have to say about Piranha Plant. Because that's the biggest dent in their theory that "generic non-characters" can't make it in. People just want reasons to reject characters.

Simple! They continue to preach their ignorant, recycled rhetoric by pretending Piranha Plant was never included and that we are all collectively crazy.

 

[superprincess]

Hell, in games where you can play as Toad and Bandana Dee, you're always playing as the Toad and the Bandana Dee when you pick them.

In Yoshi's Island, you're arguably only playing as the Yoshi on Stage 1 of every world, and Bowser's Castle. Baby Mario gets handed to a different Yoshi at the end of every stage, and you're controlling whatever color Yoshi the game decided on instead of the Yoshi.

It's arguable that there's even such a thing as "the" Yoshi. Multiple green Yoshis can be seen simultaneously in NSMBU. Same case applies to red spots/blue vest Toad AKA the "main" Toad. But again, the parallels between these two are ignored in favor of easily rejecting Toad in Smash.

Most Smash fans are just too used to what we already have. Toad's Smash role has been established as Peach's meat shield/"protector".

My #1 reason for wanting the Toad counter gone from Peach/Daisy's moveset isn't even the fact that I want Toad playable. I actually find it offensive to both characters, but mostly the princesses... Peach was designed during a different time, and without getting too dramatic, it really shows that they weren't taking her 100% seriously for obvious, totally not gender-related reasons. She's FINALLY shed the "damsel in distress" trope that's plagued her character for decades. It's time to let Toad (the move) go.

 

[Will]

It's time to let Toad (the move) go.

I’d like it replaced by something from the new Peach game. Kung Fu counter? I got no clue.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Can we not try to claim sexism just because a princess had a move where she uses a royal guard as a meat shield please?
Thank you.

 

[Laniv]

I think Peach's moveset has aged just as badly as Ganondorf's

 

[SPEN18]

Still though, with how they went out of their way to rework every stage in Ultimate to accommodate for the Minecraft quartet, maybe that 'ramps along the stage' idea Sakurai joked about could happen for Excitebiker after all...?

I don't think Excitebiker would need ramps. I think things have evolved enough since Melee in terms of what's considered workable that there wouldn't be an issue with Excitebiker jumping.
Here's how I see it: the front wheel comes off the ground first, bringing the bike into a wheelie-like position, and then the entire bike lifts off of the back wheel. Pretty seamless. It would be defying physics, but not any more than literally every other character does; the important thing is I think this animation would be pretty smooth, and works from a dash or stand-still (I'd mock it up with the NES sprite if I had such time).

Speaking of ramps, though, an Excitebike stage would also be pretty rad and they could have some fun with the layout

 

[Louie G.]

I think Peach's moveset has aged just as badly as Ganondorf's

Fascinating take, I’m genuinely curious how that is. Because I’m the opposite, I think Peach is up there with the very best designed characters on the roster.

I wouldn’t care if we removed the meat shield, but in every other area I think she’s very creatively and uniquely implemented. Her float is one of the original Smash “gimmicks” and still works nicely, she plays unlike anyone else to this day. And I think Peach is a pretty freeform character as far as moveset potential goes, pulling from Mario 2 and RPG still feels fitting enough.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Can we not try to claim sexism just because a princess had a move where she uses a royal guard as a meat shield please?
Thank you.

I dunno if sexism is exactly right, but Peach does rely on some old fashioned stereotypes. Some good and some bad.

I don't think the damsel in distress trope is inherently a bad thing, but it's what defined her character since her inception. I'd argue she still hasn't shed it. She's THE damsel in distress and honestly I think she's the best proof that a character can be compelling and fun, in spite of it.

That aside, Peach is inherently goofy. All the Mario characters are, so I don't know if her moveset is completely outdated. Her Toad counter is just... Kinda bad, but I don't think throwing away her connections with Toads is the way to go. She is their ruler and she's as connected to them as Rosalina is to Lumas.

What the hell were they think with Peach Bomber though? LMAO

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Peach/Daisy are characters i always felt comfortable playing with so i dont feel comfortable updating the moveset for the new game

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That said if someone is claiming prejudice. Hear them out, don't just mock the idea.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

What the hell were they think with Peach Bomber though? LMAO

They really had two of Peach's moves in her side special and back air hit the opponent with her ass and no one questioned it.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I'd rather have her Toad counter replaced with a move that lets her send out a commanded Toad and give it follow-ups based on the indicated direction. I think Fat Princess in PSASBR had a similar concept and we don't really have a summoner character. As the leader of the Toads, it'd make sense to have her command them.

Just something I think would be rad.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

They really had two of Peach's moves in her side special and back air hit the opponent with her ass and no one questioned it.

Peach Bomber has always struck me as weird. And it makes me wonder if during early Smash development days, they were trying to push Peach of all characters as the fanservice girl.

I'm less concerned with the small hip check she does for her back throw (cause it's kind of funny).

Back air and side special should be replaced.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

SmashWiki says Peach Bomber is very similar to moves used by R. Mika from Street Fighter and Yuri from King of Fighters, we know Sakurai plays lots of fighting arcade games, so maybe he was just inspired by those.

 

[Louie G.]

Honestly like, ignoring how it reflects on Toad’s chances of being playable, I like his more active role in Peach’s throws. D-throw comes to mind - it doesn’t feel intrusive or feel like Peach needs Toad to come save her, they’re working together and Peach is in command. The refreshed Neutral special doesn’t especially do Peach favors character wise, but it does help better sell the relationship between princess and her loyal subject. Toad is more of an active player. If they don’t intend to make Toad playable, maybe there’s room to continue to enhance this role. And maybe have Peach outwardly commanding him forward with a dynamic point, instead of holding her head in fear.

On paper I like that Peach has attacks that highlight her royal status. Toads are her people and it does feel fitting that they would play a role. Unfortunately there’s the baggage of knowing Toad the character, and feeling like this hurts his odds and disrespects him in the process. I think contextualized in a vacuum, where Peach is just commanding her subjects… you might argue it’s out of character, but it’s at least interesting. Probably better suited for Dedede, but they kinda went a different direction with him too.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Just replace Toad with Toadsworth, if you have include a Toad character in Peach's moveset, while making Toad and Toadette playable alts of each other. Makes a lot of sense anyhow with Toadsworth playing an especially close parental role to Peach moreso than other Toads. Can also use Prince Florian or a Poplin for Daisy, since it's literally called the Flower Kingdom.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I thought the Peach Bomber was an outright hip attack, not an ass attack. That said, it's still awkward, agreed.

She is also a bit more playful with her dialogue, so a subtle fanservice character at time does feel like it might've been a bit of what her personality in Smash is. Either way, she always felt more innocent characterization in the normal games when they attempted more story, so who knows why. Albeit, she doesn't exactly have much cutscene depth for a long time(Sunshine is one of her first notable more major personalities besides the Paper Mario universe, which apparently are different people anyway).

 

[HyperSomari64]

SmashWiki says Peach Bomber is very similar to moves used by R. Mika from Street Fighter and Yuri from King of Fighters, we know Sakurai plays lots of fighting arcade games, so maybe he was just inspired by those.

Or that part on Ren & Stimpy's Happy Happy Joy Joy choreography.
/j

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

If all it takes is hitting someone with your ass to be fanservicey, then....

"Wah~"

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If all it takes is hitting someone with your ass to be fanservicey, then....

"Wah~"

Or the Sexiest Fat Man Alive, Dr. Rrrrrrrrobotnik!

 

[Ivander]

If all it takes is hitting someone with your ass to be fanservicey, then....

"Wah~"

Wario always was an ass man.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Or the Sexiest Fat Man Alive, Dr. Rrrrrrrrobotnik!

Oh yes.

 

[Perkilator]

View attachment 384683

Oh yes.

Please change you pfp back to this or else I'll do it myself

 

[Louie G.]

She is also a bit more playful with her dialogue, so a subtle fanservice character at time does feel like it might've been a bit of what her personality in Smash is. Either way, she always felt more innocent characterization in the normal games when they attempted more story, so who knows why.

I like this take on her, because I feel like Smash allows the Mario characters to reach into different parts of themselves. So anyone should take this with a grain of salt, if you don't like how Luigi is portrayed in Smash... I disagree. This is kinda similar. I like when fighting games accentuate a character's dynamic traits.

Peach is not without her playfulness, leaning even harder into that where she outwardly taunts opponents and almost like, mocks them by pretending to be ditzy is fun to me. When she asks "did I win", she obviously knows what she's doing. Smash Peach feels sharp, one of the earliest "empowering" versions of the character who is kind of aware of what her reputation is and uses that to humiliate. I don't say this to discredit why anyone might feel that Peach's depiction edges on sexist, but I think some of that is still present in the Mario series and Smash at least has some fun with it.

Her butt / hip check attacks are kinda goofy, but I never thought much of it aside from acknowledging that it's silly. The R. Mika comparison is a fun one because it contextualizes these moves as Peach channeling a damn wrestler, that's hilarious. Even if the action is questionable the move feels right in her kit? Probably just because I'm used to it, I dunno what I would change it to though.

 

[Pupp135]

Or the Sexiest Fat Man Alive, Dr. Rrrrrrrrobotnik!

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Please change you pfp back to this or else I'll do it myself

I actually forgot I initially did that before switching to the bear.

IMG_8220.jpeg



S-Super Smash…Bros…?

I can finally properly respond to this. (Sorry for bringing up an old post)

 

[NintenRob]

I heavily disagree with any notion of changing Peach's side special. Origin be damned, that move is fun as ****

 

[7NATOR]

Peach/Daisy Bomber is too Iconic and fun of a move to remove. I'd actually think it be sexist in itself to remove the move to be honest, especially if Bowser and Luigi get to keep their Booty moves, which are fun moves to use also.

 

[NintenRob]

Honestly, Peach in Smash is not something I have any real interest in changing. At most swap Toad for Toadsworth if we make Toad playable (and give Daisy Toadbert or something, idk)

Peach is one of the single most fun characters to use in the game already, and her depiction from Brawl onwards is probably her single best appearance in any media. Her taunts and victory screens are frankly, PERFECTION.

 

[Kirbeh]

Peach Bomber stays, it's really fun to use and its literally just a joke on the fact that she's Princess Peach.

It's a goofy move with some likely inspiration from tropes found elsewhere (as with Yuri as someone brought up earlier) but I don't see where the notion that it's intended for fan service comes from.

The only special that really needs updating is the Toad counter imo. For one, in the hopes that we can finally get playable Toad and second to just reduce the amount of counters in the game. Plus I think there's plenty of neat stuff they could pull from like the bubble flower from Wonder for example.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I'm afraid of saying this, but the butt talking made me realize that we are on the borderline of fetish fuel. This and the Mushroom items is just frightening.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I had a dream where Adeleine and Gooey were included as P3 and P4 in Kirby and the Forgotten Land and then became mainstays in the series and got huge Smash followings and it was a thing of beauty.

Aw, c'mon, don't tease me with dreams that should've 100% happened in reality.

 

[Will]

You say Peach is fun to play.

Have you ever played against Peach? It took me ten minutes to make this gif usable btw