Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

Bro, I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing.

Just saying: the spin-off Toad and the many Toad characters of the main-series are tangential but separate entities.

says who?

 

[DarthEnderX]

For starters, Punch-Out is not just a single game but a full-fledged series, and a fairly storied one at that. The arcade game was allegedly a hit worldwide, and the NES version is a stone cold classic in the West. Then, the Wii installment was also a success and, having recently revived an already beloved series, it probably played a big part in Mac getting selected for Smash 4. The SNES game was also well-liked, though it doesn't get talked about as much. I'd argue that Punch-Out's standing in the West is actually closer to that of stuff like Starfox or F-Zero overall, + the Wii game released at the perfect time for Mac to get in Smash.
Murasame on the other hand is just one single game on the NES and a bunch of cameos way after the fact. I think a better parallel to Little Mac would be Marth in Melee.

There are no more Japanese Nintendo characters that parallel mac. Any Japanese franchise that had Punch-Out's level of popularity is already in Smash.

In fact, I think StarTropics might be one of the only multi-entry Nintendo franchises that's not in Smash now.

I dunno, I feel like part of the reason why MVCI's roster fell short was because they built it around the story mode.

The reason MvCI's roster fell short was because the Capcom side was almost identical to MvC3, and the Marvel side stripped out all the X-Men.

well that's wrong on several levels. firstly how did you get water based for SS?

No idea about SS, but the Hyrule Warriors version uses water elemental attacks.

You say it like people wouldn't love Gommbario's return.

Eh. He's no Goombella.

We're really using that word in regard to newcomer discussion in current year, are we?

It's a perfectly valid argument. He's just wrong to make it for BWD.

 

[Will]

You missed the point. The red-spotted, blue-vested Toad as seen in the spin-offs doesn't exist as anything more than a whole general race in the main series.

Captain Toad is just one of many Toads with different roles from the main series. The most prominent of them all, but still.

But that’s my point, right? He’s the most prominent one; and presents a unique design based on the premise that he can’t jump. In 2018, I spat on that idea so hard I got infracted for celebrating when he was deconfirmed. In 2024? We got Minecraft Steve, I’m open to the idea if they create a fun mechanic.

You don’t need basic Toad to make Captain Toad a character, but you can place basic Toad in Captain Toad’s moveset. Even if you still have the Toad counter in the next game, all of the characteristics of Toad can be placed in the definitive characters.

We can agree to disagree on Toad. This was just my two cents that you didn’t ask for, but you will receive anyway.

 

[Dinoman96]

In fact, I think StarTropics might be one of the only multi-entry Nintendo franchises that's not in Smash now.

That's because StarTropics literally has never had any sort of release in Japan whatsoever lol

 

[CannonStreak]

You know, speaking of StarTropics, I think they should represent more western Nintendo properties in Smash in some way, like StarTropics itself and Tinstar.

 

[fogbadge]

In fact, I think StarTropics might be one of the only multi-entry Nintendo franchises that's not in Smash now.

do you mean as fighters or are you including cameos?

 

[SPEN18]

My main criticism of Dee pre-FL (and the reason that I wasn't fully on-board with him as a Smash candidate) was that being the "player 4" character is not really all that important of a role, or at least it's more arguable that somebody like Magolor or Marx who gets to be a highly popular main villain once or twice is just as important. Like, you'd never expect to see the fourth-string party member from an RPG in Smash, even if much of that series' fanbase has a bit of a soft spot for them. But the combination of recurring in those types of roles and then being elevated to "player 2" status in FL, with it being more likely than not that he remains in prominence from here on out, made it harder to argue the other way.

 

[Will]

That's because StarTropics literally has never had any sort of release in Japan whatsoever lol

StarTropics was cool as **** though because it came with that map. That you had to put underwater, literally, UNDER WATER to get important information to help you beat the game. They also try to replicate this when it was ported to the Wii.

This kind of gameplay is one thing I wish I was born earlier to truly experience. I love this kind of anti-piracy in early games.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

This is it right here. It's the fact that they act like Bandana Dee deserves to matter when so many other characters like Adeleine or even Marx or Magolor deserve it more.

What about Adeleine, Marx or Magolor deserve it more exactly? Like or not, Bandana Dee has been a key player in the modern series argubly alot more than those 3 especially Adeleine. The face of the series alongside Kirby more favorably on home territory.

Look i personally would more exicted for Marx and Magalor but you are basically asking why Luigi deserve to be on the roster over Vivan, Wart and Fawful? The answer is pretty clear.

 

[superprincess]

I've been seeing Bandana Waddle Dee discourse happening for the past 10 years... That's more than half of my entire life.

Can we wrap it up? This character is relevant and important to his series, and despite having no personal attachment to him, I can clearly see why people would want him in Smash.

Every argument that tries to logically prove that he's unimportant or "undeserving" simply falls flat, because he simply isn't. Just say you're biased, admit you personally don't want the character & move on.

Like, if it were up to me, Sonic wouldn't be in Smash. I don't have to put together some bull**** reasoning to defend my stance. I simply don't like the dude and his series. Say that with your chest and hop off BWD. He's too inoffensive for this fandom to constantly act a mess over him.

 

[Louie G.]

Like, if it were up to me, Sonic wouldn't be in Smash. I simply don't like the dude

Snake, is that you?

Jokes aside, I feel like Bandana Dee is a major victim of the increase in scope of the series at large. He's an easy target for someone who is conditioned to want the biggest budget third party characters to point at and be like, you guys really want HIM instead of cool deserving characters like Crash Bandicoot?

Granted I'm not the most confident in Bandana Dee's odds, particularly if someone like Toad is anything to go by, but it's certainly a justified addition at this point and people who feel like he's bottom of the barrel either... don't really play Kirby, or are in for a world of disappointment when most of the base game newcomers are first party again. That's not an indictment of Quillon I don't think that applies to him, just the fanbase at large.

 

[CannonStreak]

I've been seeing Bandana Waddle Dee discourse happening for the past 10 years... That's more than half of my entire life.

Can we wrap it up? This character is relevant and important to his series, and despite having no personal attachment to him, I can clearly see why people would want him in Smash.

Every argument that tries to logically prove that he's unimportant or "undeserving" simply falls flat, because he simply isn't. Just say you're biased, admit you personally don't want the character & move on.

Like, if it were up to me, Sonic wouldn't be in Smash. I don't have to put together some bull**** reasoning to defend my stance. I simply don't like the dude and his series. Say that with your chest and hop off BWD. He's too inoffensive for this fandom to constantly act a mess over him.

Well said, superprincess. I do agree on all points. I would not go as far as count out Sonic, though. He is in regardless of if you like him or not. He is that iconic.

 

[Will]

Snake, is that you?

Snake from Metal Gear or Snake the user who never touches this part of the website?

 

[DarthEnderX]

I've been seeing Bandana Waddle Dee discourse happening for the past 10 years... That's more than half of my entire life.

Can we wrap it up?

No? Smash fighter discourse doesn't end till they get in.

 

[superprincess]

Well said, superprincess. I do agree on all points. I would not go as far as count out Sonic, though. He is in regardless of if you like him or not. He is that iconic.

I'm not counting out Sonic at all. I'm just bringing up an example of how personal bias can cloud our judgment in the context of these conversations. I personally don't like him and his series, and I could make up countless excuses to "gatekeep" him from Smash, but the reality is that he is too iconic, as you said.

When it comes to characters people dislike, they're almost never gonna be objective.

 

[Zerp]

No? Smash fighter discourse doesn't end till they get in.

Given Jigglypuff, Corrin, Dark Pit and the like, who says it has to end when they get in? Good arguments or bad arguments, it matters not. The discourse shall go on for all eternity, there is no escape.

 

[CannonStreak]

I'm not counting out Sonic at all. I'm just bringing up an example of how personal bias can cloud our judgment in the context of these conversations. I personally don't like him and his series, and I could make up countless excuses to "gatekeep" him from Smash, but the reality is that he is too iconic, as you said.

When it comes to characters people dislike, they're almost never gonna be objective.

First off, I guess by counting out, I simply mean you not liking him and maybe cutting him if you had your way.

Everything else: Now that’s what I’m talking about.

 

[superprincess]

No? Smash fighter discourse doesn't end till they get in.

It does get stale and boring at some point, especially when people regurgitate the same old arguments. When I said "wrap it up", I meant stop repeating the same tired stuff. "Generic mook" "undeserving" etc. Not stop discussing the character altogether.

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

When If Bandana Waddle Dee does get in next game we can probably expect Byleth levels of controversy and discourse perpetuated by people who played a maximum of 2 Kirby games in their lifes and were expecting characters like Master Chief or Kratos to show up in the base game.

Not that it matters cause Kirby fans will have already won at that point but on that day gamers around the globe will direct their anger towards a bandana wearing orb who likes apple juice and I will be along for the ride.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

It does get stale and boring at some point, especially when people regurgitate the same old arguments. When I said "wrap it up", I meant stop repeating the same tired stuff. "Generic mook" "undeserving" etc. Not stop discussing the character altogether.

You might want to be careful, as this could be interpreted as shooting down any and all criticism against him.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

When If Bandana Waddle Dee does get in next game we can probably expect Byleth levels of controversy and discourse perpetuated by people who played a maximum of 2 Kirby games in their lifes and were expecting characters like Master Chief or Kratos to show up in the base game.

Not that it matters cause Kirby fans will have already won at that point but on that day gamers around the globe will direct their anger towards a bandana wearing orb who likes apple juice and I will be along for the ride.

It's not going to get anywhere near Byleth levels of "controversy".

At most there would be collective indifference.
Let's avoid unnecessary martyrism.

 

[Louie G.]

The thing is too, there are genuine arguments to be had against Bandana Dee - like whether or not his role has entirely come into its own yet. SPEN18 pointed out pretty aptly that it wasn't until Forgotten Land that he really came into a defined "Player 2". Before that, he was either the fourth in line or playing a supporting background role to throw you items. He did have a few prominent spinoff roles, but Forgotten Land is probably his most significant yet. Is this gonna be enough? It helps solidify his case, but we'll see if it's something that puts him promptly on the radar. I'm excited for the future of the character but these BIG moves are fairly recent. Next game is probably his strongest case yet, at least.

And then comparing him to similar scenarios like Smash's history with Toad, how he has played a role in Peach's moveset for 20 years and despite his prominence stayed locked in there. I have my concerns about whether a character like Toad, or by extension Bandana Dee, excites him enough to pursue in a vacuum. Piranha Plant (or Yoshi for that matter) should tell us all that there's nothing stopping these characters from being viable, but it's hard to deny Plant also had the intended shock factor that a major supporting character like Toad or Bandana Dee lack at this stage.

It's just that on paper, saying Bandana Dee is not a real character or that he's "just" a Waddle Dee comes off ignorant. He is a character, a progressively more prominent one, and he fulfills a role that other characters of his species do not. Even more defined than Toad even, with how red Toad can often be swapped out for blue or yellow interchangeably. The community never hones in on the RIGHT arguments to have about Bandana Dee, so we keep continuing this circular routine about his credibility.

 

[MasterCheef]

It does get stale and boring at some point, especially when people regurgitate the same old arguments. When I said "wrap it up", I meant stop repeating the same tired stuff. "Generic mook" "undeserving" etc. Not stop discussing the character altogether.

I personally just wish folks would stop going sooo nutty over tiny characters which are hard to hit

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

The thing is too, there are genuine arguments to be had against Bandana Dee - like whether or not his role has entirely come into its own yet. SPEN18 pointed out pretty aptly that it wasn't until Forgotten Land that he really came into a defined "Player 2". Before that, he was either the fourth in line or playing a supporting background role to throw you items. He did have a few prominent spinoff roles, but Forgotten Land is probably his most significant yet. Is this gonna be enough? It helps solidify his case, but we'll see if it's something that puts him promptly on the radar. I'm excited for the future of the character but these BIG moves are fairly recent. Next game is probably his strongest case yet, at least.

And then comparing him to similar scenarios like Smash's history with Toad, how he has played a role in Peach's moveset for 20 years and despite his prominence stayed locked in there. I have my concerns about whether a character like Toad, or by extension Bandana Dee, excites him enough to pursue in a vacuum. Piranha Plant (or Yoshi for that matter) should tell us all that there's nothing stopping these characters from being viable, but it's hard to deny Plant also had the intended shock factor that a major supporting character like Toad or Bandana Dee lack at this stage.

I do hate admit this but I this is why I'm pretty cautious around playing the Plant card whenever someone complains about Dee's mook status. On paper it should be a done deal that Piranha Plant destroyed that critisism forever... yet there always exists the possibility that Sakurai considered Plant an exception as a joke rather than a new standard. That aside from any shock factor the inclusion of a generic member of a species might bring (Pokemon and DQ slime getting an exception of couse), he doesn't see much value in "player 4" characters like Bandana Dee or (Captain) Toad.

"Player 4 type characters don't belong in Smash" is still a weak argument that moves a goalpost and doesn't make sense... but sometimes Sakurai doesn't do the thing that makes sense. I respect the guy a lot but I still find it weird that most Kirby content in Smash is from the games he developped or that guys like DK and Bowser are still stuck with stock beast noises instead of their proper VAs

 

[Gengar84]

The thing is too, there are genuine arguments to be had against Bandana Dee - like whether or not his role has entirely come into its own yet. SPEN18 pointed out pretty aptly that it wasn't until Forgotten Land that he really came into a defined "Player 2". Before that, he was either the fourth in line or playing a supporting background role to throw you items. He did have a few prominent spinoff roles, but Forgotten Land is probably his most significant yet. Is this gonna be enough? It helps solidify his case, but we'll see if it's something that puts him promptly on the radar. I'm excited for the future of the character but these BIG moves are fairly recent. Next game is probably his strongest case yet, at least.

And then comparing him to similar scenarios like Smash's history with Toad, how he has played a role in Peach's moveset for 20 years and despite his prominence stayed locked in there. I have my concerns about whether a character like Toad, or by extension Bandana Dee, excites him enough to pursue in a vacuum. Piranha Plant (or Yoshi for that matter) should tell us all that there's nothing stopping these characters from being viable, but it's hard to deny Plant also had the intended shock factor that a major supporting character like Toad or Bandana Dee lack at this stage.

It's just that on paper, saying Bandana Dee is not a real character or that he's "just" a Waddle Dee comes off ignorant. He is a character, a progressively more prominent one, and he fulfills a role that other characters of his species do not. Even more defined than Toad even, with how red Toad can often be swapped out for blue or yellow interchangeably. The community never hones in on the RIGHT arguments to have about Bandana Dee, so we keep continuing this circular routine about his credibility.

I think it might help if they actually gave the character a name. For example, Goombella and Koops are characters from the Goomba and Koopa Troopa races respectively. While their names are based on their races names, they still sound more like actual names where Bandana Dee is more a description than a name. You could make similar arguments for Toad and Yoshi but I think the Mario cartoon helped each of them stand out as their own characters. I can’t remember whether Bandana Dee was a thing for the Right Back at Ya.

 

[fogbadge]

Let's avoid unnecessary martyrism.

well there goes my weekend

 

[Laniv]

So, uh... Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze turns 10 years old today.

Where do y'all think DK as a series goes from here?

 

[fogbadge]

So, uh... Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze turns 10 years old today.

Where do y'all think DK as a series goes from here?

HD remake of DK 64?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

When If Bandana Waddle Dee does get in next game we can probably expect Byleth levels of controversy and discourse perpetuated by people who played a maximum of 2 Kirby games in their lifes and were expecting characters like Master Chief or Kratos to show up in the base game.

Not that it matters cause Kirby fans will have already won at that point but on that day gamers around the globe will direct their anger towards a bandana wearing orb who likes apple juice and I will be along for the ride.

Bandana Waddle Dee is one of the most popular first party requests.

How would that cause the amount of controversy that Byleth did?

 

[Laniv]

HD remake of DK 64?

I think DK64 would not only benefit from a remake, it could also really do with one to be... not a slog to play through.

 

[Zerp]

As a Dee supporter, my thoughts on anti-Dee arguments can be summarized like this.

• Broke: "Bandana Dee is a generic undeserving mook" <--- Bad faith argument and/or ignorant. Boring and overused.
• Woke: "I don't like Bandana Dee" <--- Honest and genuine. Rarely used.
• BESPOKE: "Sakurai Bias against modern Kirby is actually real, and I completely support it" <--- Bold and effective! Sadly, nobody uses it.

 

[superprincess]

As a Dee supporter, my thoughts on anti-Dee arguments can be summarized like this.

• Broke: "Bandana Dee is a generic undeserving mook" <--- Bad faith argument and/or ignorant. Boring and overused.
• Woke: "I don't like Bandana Dee" <--- Honest and genuine. Rarely used.
• BESPOKE: "Sakurai Bias against modern Kirby is actually real, and I completely support it" <--- Bold and effective! Sadly, nobody uses it.

The most valid argument against him is to just look at how Smash has treated Toad. People always mess up the analogy though.

 

[Gengar84]

I don’t think I’d say I’m anti-Dee but I just feel there are more exciting options for me personally. I do think he makes sense to be playable at some point since he has been in multiple games in his series. I’d be fine if he got in but I’m mostly indifferent to his inclusion. I loved Kirby Superstars on the SNES and I’ve bought a few Kirby games over the years so I do like the series. My favorite Kirby character, Bugzzy, has no real chance as it’s niche was already taken by Incineroar so Dee is fine.

 

[fogbadge]

As a Dee supporter, my thoughts on anti-Dee arguments can be summarized like this.

• Broke: "Bandana Dee is a generic undeserving mook" <--- Bad faith argument and/or ignorant. Boring and overused.
• Woke: "I don't like Bandana Dee" <--- Honest and genuine. Rarely used.
• BESPOKE: "Sakurai Bias against modern Kirby is actually real, and I completely support it" <--- Bold and effective! Sadly, nobody uses it.

I use it. and I support him

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So.

What do you think of Corrin? They are Smash's first cannon LGBTQ rep.

Do you think that's important or should other characters who fulfill that niche like Byleth take over because they're more popular and successful?

 

[Gengar84]

So.

What do you think of Corrin? They are Smash's first cannon LGBTQ rep.

Do you think that's important or should other characters who fulfill that niche like Byleth take over because they're more popular and successful?

I think Corrin has a fun and unique moveset but I never cared much about them as a character. I don’t particularly care much about avatar characters as a rule and I feel like the story from Fates could have been better. I’m fine they got in because they’re fun to play but I wouldn’t be upset if they couldn’t make it back.

Wasn’t Ike supposed to be romantically involved with Soren or was that just a rumor? Not sure if that was ever confirmed anywhere.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

So.

What do you think of Corrin? They are Smash's first cannon LGBTQ rep.

Do you think that's important or should other characters who fulfill that niche like Byleth take over because they're more popular and successful?

Going to get a lot of flak for this, but I don't think a character's sexual orientation, gender identity, race, etc. should play a factor at all in why they're playable in the silly game where Mario can punch a Pikachu in the face.

So I find Corrin (or Byleth) being canonically bisexual to be completely irrelevant as anything but side trivia for the character.

 

[fogbadge]

So.

What do you think of Corrin? They are Smash's first cannon LGBTQ rep.

Do you think that's important or should other characters who fulfill that niche like Byleth take over because they're more popular and successful?

I don’t think that sort of representation should matter in smash. certainly not given the state of it in triple A gaming anyway

 

[Gengar84]

Going to get a lot of flak for this, but I don't think a character's sexual orientation, gender identity, race, etc. should play a factor at all in why they're playable in the silly game where Mario can punch a Pikachu in the face.

So I find Corrin (or Byleth) being canonically bisexual to be completely irrelevant as anything but side trivia for the character.

I think I can sympathize with each side of the argument here. On one hand, I think you’re right that a character should be chosen primarily for their popularity or moveset potential but I can understand that adding more diversity can let more people connect with the characters in the game. In my view, diversity is always a good thing but I get wanting to avoid a character feeling forced because they happen to fill a certain criteria.

 

[Louie G.]

So.

What do you think of Corrin? They are Smash's first cannon LGBTQ rep.

Do you think that's important or should other characters who fulfill that niche like Byleth take over because they're more popular and successful?

Honestly, I don't really think of that as a significant trait of either character. It's technically true, but it's only as true as the player wants it to be. This isn't me saying it should be the sole reason a character gets in, but it would be more of a landmark if it was a character who is unabashedly LGBT.

And unfortunately, as of now, we don't have that many of those within Nintendo. Gaming as a whole has spread out pretty significantly on this social issue but the number of those characters relevant or interesting enough to be playable characters is pretty slim. Kind of a similar issue with POC representation in Smash, it hinges on Nintendo and other gaming studios to make diverse characters who can stand on their own individual merit and become icons in their own right.

So I guess my bottom line is that I don't think it's that important that Corrin is bisexual, or Byleth for that matter but I think Byleth will stay around anyway. I'm not sure it's crossed Sakurai's mind and being relative blank slates in their own right I feel like it's not very substantial representation outside of their own game.