Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

Alright, after beating the Ruined King last week, I decided to go back and finish Octopath Traveller 2. I left off a long time ago only having completed Throne’s story but at the start of everyone else’s final chapter. After spending the weekend, I’ve completed all but Temenos.

Playing the game again reminded me of how much I’d love to see at least a stage get in the next Smash but a character would be even better. Octopath has such a cool and unique aesthetic and some of the best soundtracks I’ve ever heard in a game. The HD-2D graphics would make for a great Smash stage that would really stand out. Here’s just a few of my favorite songs that we could get on the stage for those who haven’t heard the soundtrack:

Spoiler

Would anyone else be interested in seeing some Octopath content in the next Smash? If we were to get a character, would you rather have a specific Traveller or an amalgamation that pulled moves from each class with a Bowser Jr. style for alts of the different characters? Since any character can play any class as well as a support class, the amalgamation idea kind of works. The biggest problem is the characters have different body frames. If we only go with one particular Traveller, my favorite is H’aanit from the first game. I love her design and a beast tamer archetype hasn’t really been done in Smash yet (unless you count Pokemon Trainer)

 

[MasterCheef]

Would anyone else be interested in seeing some Octopath content in the next Smash? If we were to get a character, would you rather have a specific Traveler or an amalgamation that pulled moves from each class with a Bowser Jr. style for alts of the different characters?

.
.
Amalgamation moveset ; please & thank you

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Would anyone else be interested in seeing some Octopath content in the next Smash?

Personally i think this series makes the most sense if Square Enix gets another series on the playable line up in the future.

Because of how much Nintendo has pushed it, you know.

 

[Pupp135]

I just saw on the wiki that Clefairy was considered for SSB64 as a Kirby semi-clone instead of Jigglypuff. How would everyone feel if Clefairy made it?

 

[Gengar84]

Personally i think this series makes the most sense if Square Enix gets another series on the playable line up in the future.

Because of how much Nintendo has pushed it, you know.

I’m really happy the games exist. It’s so cool that they’ve basically modernized classic SNES RPGs and shows that there’s still a ton of room for turn based sprites. The individual stories can be a little basic for the general narrative but they’re really well told and emotional. Octopath 2 made some good progress in character interaction between your party members but I’d like to see them go even further with it. If we don’t get a Chrono Trigger character, I think Octopath is my next choice and I’d be pretty hyped for a character or even a stage at least. Bravely is fun too but I think Octopath does a better job capturing the classic nostalgic style. I never really cared for how all the characters looked like dolls in Bravely Default 2.

I just saw on the wiki that Clefairy was considered for SSB64 as a Kirby semi-clone instead of Jigglypuff. How would everyone feel if Clefairy made it?

Clefairy could have been cool but I think they made the right choice with Jigglypuff. It’s harder to picture Clefairy having the same aerial movement as Kirby or Jigglypuff. It’s not really on my list of most wanted characters but I’ll never complain about more Pokemon.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

I just saw on the wiki that Clefairy was considered for SSB64 as a Kirby semi-clone instead of Jigglypuff. How would everyone feel if Clefairy made it?

I like Jigglypuff, but I wouldn’t mind the idea of playing as Clefairy.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Because Dragon Quest is really just one epic bug-collecting adventure.

I mean, Dragon Quest 5 very much is.

It's known that Pokemon was inspired by the monster capturing mechanic in DQ5.

Right, because what's going to get Pokemon 'off its ass' is an early access not even a week old game that infamously is stealing assets not only from Pokemon itself, but also maybe even fan artists.

A week old game that already has 3 million players.

Also, stealing assets from Pokemon...

 

[RileyXY1]

Calling Pokémon a ripoff of Dragon Quest is like calling Sonic a ripoff of Mario.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I just saw on the wiki that Clefairy was considered for SSB64 as a Kirby semi-clone instead of Jigglypuff. How would everyone feel if Clefairy made it?

Jigglypuff was the right call in terms of a fighter based off Kirby's skeleton, but Clefairy could have been fun, especially if they threw in nods to that Clefairy.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Calling Pokémon a ripoff of Dragon Quest is like calling Sonic a ripoff of Mario.

I guess that depends whether you consider "inspired by" a polite way of saying "ripped off" or not.

Pokemon's creator and lead artist were both avid DQ players and noted DQ5 as an inspiration.

 

[Noipoi]

Taking inspiration from another property, even heavy inspiration, is not equivalent to just ripping off said property.

 

[Arcanir]

A week old game that already has 3 million players.

Also, stealing assets from Pokemon...

Ignoring the terrible false equivalency argument...

No guarantee it'll hold that player count, there's been many cases where a game touted as a Pokemon (Smash, what have you) competitor, gets a high player count, and then falls off due to a number of factors. It's only a few days old, we don't even know if it's going to make it past early access, until it actually shows it's capable of releasing the finalized product and keeping its players trying to paint it as a potential competitor that Pokemon should pay attention to is pure folly.

 

[Ivander]

I guess that depends whether you consider "inspired by" a polite way of saying "ripped off" or not.

Like how every game with "Go in one direction to end of level to win" ripped off Jungle King.

 

[Sucumbio]

So no to Palworld?

 

[Gorgonzales]

I just saw on the wiki that Clefairy was considered for SSB64 as a Kirby semi-clone instead of Jigglypuff. How would everyone feel if Clefairy made it?

it would have been a nice change in body-type compared to kirby and jiggs but i'm not losing sleep over its omission or anything

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So no to Palworld?

Palworld is going to be really controversial on a Nintendo oriented forum.

All the AI stuff aside.

 

[Lionfranky]

Personally i think this series makes the most sense if Square Enix gets another series on the playable line up in the future.

Because of how much Nintendo has pushed it, you know.

I think 2B is the frontrunner from Square Enix at least based on pattern and precedence.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Taking inspiration from another property, even heavy inspiration, is not equivalent to just ripping off said property.

I agree. I'm just applying the same argument of the people claiming Palworld is ripping off Pokemon to Pokemon itself.

So no to Palworld?

In Smash? Seems pretty unlikely.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Pokemon a rip off from Dragon Quest? Well, no. But literally most RPGs from that time where sort of influenced by Dragon Quest in one way or another.

 

[fogbadge]

Jigglypuff was the right call in terms of a fighter based off Kirby's skeleton, but Clefairy could have been fun, especially if they threw in nods to that Clefairy.

if memory serves, clefairy was almost the franchise mascot because of this one. so in theory it could have been clefairy instead of pikachu

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The thing with Palworld is that it's still absurdly early in its life. It could be the start of a genuinely strong new franchise, with the mega sales pointing to a real pseudo competitor to Pokemon now emerging... or it could just be a temporary spike for a game that the general public will get sick of in a month, or any of the possibilities in between. We'll to wait and see.

 

[AlRex]

Most things about Palworld seem creatively bankrupt, especially with the AI/asset flip stuff, and most seem to be supporting it out of spite towards Pokémon currently rather than any merits it has. All this sketchy tech bro kind of stuff, where is/was this energy for Yokai Watch, Digimon, or indie developers who make or at least credit their material? The difference with Pokémon and Dragon Quest aside from obvious things like the setting and all that, is that the Pokémon people at least drew their own designs, rather than generating them.

 

[Oracle Link]

BTW should i give a tutorial how to make Videospiel-Man as a mii Fighter?
Like the moveset fits him perfectly!
Or do you want a "THEM" Mii? Or a Redead or a lot of other zelda enemys?
Also for those hating mooks or generic race representatives should those be mii costumes or new custom options?

 

[fogbadge]

I do wonder if Palworld’s attention is on part due to its controversial nature. You know the assets theft and stuff

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I think it's too early to discussing Palworld's chances.

The game came to be and hasn't full release yet. Even then if that wasn't the case, what can Palworld actually bring to the table for Smash that Pokemon has already covered?

 

[Gengar84]

My stance is that I’m okay with AI generated or enhanced art as long as the person making it is upfront and honest about what they’re doing and what programs they used. The problems for me come from when people try to pass it off as entirely their own work or steal other people’s material. It seems like too many people and corporations are being dishonest and trying to hide the fact that they’re using AI. That just hurts them in the end when people inevitably find out and call them out like what happened with Wizards of the Coast.

For example, my brother and I have been creating our own characters for most of our lives. Our latest work involved my brother drawing the character in pencil, going over it in pen, scanning it and blocking in basic colors in Photoshop. At that point, I did all the shading in Photoshop. Last year, my friend recommended us to try Stable Diffusion. We ran several of our characters through and made a lot of touch ups and adjustments to the output ourselves in Photoshop and posted them on Artstation along with our fully original art. Each of our drawing were run through at least 50 or so times and we stitched together the best parts from the top results in Photoshop as well as cleaned up problem areas like hands. For the AI enhanced characters, we titled them all as such and described the programs used and process in the description. Even with AI, we still put several hours of work into each character to each character before and after using it to try to make them look as good and true to our intended design as we can.

If Palworld is just fully automating all the work and stealing content to do so, then I feel like it’s probably best to keep it out of Smash. I only have very basic knowledge of the game as well as what I’ve been reading here. If any of that is wrong and the creators put legitimate input, work, and creativity into the game then I’ll revise my opinion.

 

[HyperSomari64]

All we need is a bootleg video game rep.

 

[Garteam]

[W]hat can Palworld actually bring to the table for Smash that Pokemon has already covered?

To be fair, it wouldn't be hard to differentiate a Palworld character from the Pokemon on the roster since the Player's character is so heavily involved in the gameplay, utilizing a firearm to fight directly alongside their monsters. A Palworld character would be more like Steve or Snake than Pokemon Trainer, who is ironically one of the less humanoid Pokemon fighters.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I do wonder if Palworld’s attention is on part due to its controversial nature. You know the assets theft and stuff

I think the "Pokemon with guns!" controversialness is attracting more people.

My stance is that I’m okay with AI generated or enhanced art as long as the person making it is upfront and honest about what they’re doing and what programs they used.

I have 2 requirements to be fine with it.
1. Disclosing the fact that you're using AI.
2. Compensating the people whose art you fed into your AI to get your results.

 

[Will]

All we need is a bootleg video game rep.

We already have amiibo functionality

 

[BuckleyTim]

I don't think Palworld is doing numbers based off just controversy. Suffice to say, I think we've finally figured out why Call of Duty puts out those tacky anime skins into their milsim stuff, because I guarantee you the audience for the latter is going insane over the former's existence. Like, 3 million copies sold in 48 hours is insane regardless of how popular it got in China.

Anyway I'm disappointed with how the game turned out. Give me something approximating borderlands with animal buddies and I would have enjoyed it!... But the actual game we got is pretty much just a techbro slurry of all the game genres that don't appeal to me nowadays...

 

[Garteam]

I do wonder if Palworld’s attention is on part due to its controversial nature. You know the assets theft and stuff

I'm going to be honest, I don't think it is. Palworld's release has been a little too widespread and explosive to just be riding off of an ongoing artistic debate regarding the role of AI in the creation of works. I didn't know about the controversy until I came in this thread, actually, but I was aware of Palworld's success through family.

It's mashing one of the largest genres in gaming together with one of its most popular franchises, the latter of which is currently experiencing historical pushback due to a perceived dip in quality and continual stagnation. Palworld was always likely to find an audience for that reason alone. The fact that the game seems to be functional mechanically and reasonably well-designed for the genre helps, even if it does look pretty darn ugly due to having an art direction that is all over the place.

 

[Gengar84]

I think the "Pokemon with guns!" controversialness is attracting more people.

I have 2 requirements to be fine with it.
1. Disclosing the fact that you're using AI.
2. Compensating the people whose art you fed into your AI to get your results.

Yeah, I totally agree with the compensation point on the developer end of the AI. If it’s at all possible, I feel the creators of the art used to train these models should be fairly compensated in some way. Not entirely sure the mechanism to do that but there should be a large effort at minimum to do so. On the user end, most people have no idea what was actually used in the data we’re creating so that becomes nearly impossible to properly credit the individual sources. I think the least the users can do is disclose when they’re using AI and what programs were used in making the image.

 

[FazDude]

Wait, Palworld itself uses AI? I know the studio's released a game that heavily used AI in the past, but I haven't heard anything about Palworld specifically using it. I've been a bit turned off on it given how the company's CEO is pro-NFTs, but I've been following the controversy a bit.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

if memory serves, clefairy was almost the franchise mascot because of this one. so in theory it could have been clefairy instead of pikachu

I'm not sure if the Manga came first or the idea of Clefairy being the mascot came first, but the two are likely correlated.

Clefairy was indeed considered for the mascot but Pikachu was decided because of being more "gender neutral" in design while Clefairy would appeal more to girls.

 

[Noipoi]

We already have amiibo functionality

View attachment 383334

Mark

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Wait, Palworld itself uses AI? I know the studio's released a game that heavily used AI in the past, but I haven't heard anything about Palworld specifically using it. I've been a bit turned off on it given how the company's CEO is pro-NFTs, but I've been following the controversy a bit.

No. They couldn't have actually made the assets with it. It wasn't actually possible for this kind of 3D stuff. It still isn't. Only basically 2D shots are possible with any remote quality(so to speak on quality).

It is only possible they used AI to create references to figure out how to design the various Pals at best. And there's absolutely zero evidence of it. There's no question they parodied Pokemon and other stuff by using them as references, though. That's very blatant but also intentional. Even those who look similar are still rather distinct, so calling it a ripoff is understandable. Parodies are ripoffs to begin with if they use similar designs, though. So it's not really saying much.

 

[AlRex]

I feel like the difference between Dragon Quest and Pokémon in comparison to Pokémon and Palworld, regardless, is also kind of the difference between Daredevil and Ninja Turtles in comparison to Ninja Turtles and Cheetahmen. Although I’d find Cheetahmen in Smash funny.

 

[Gengar84]

On the subject of beast tamers with an actual active role in the fight themselves, two options I really like are H’aanit or Ochette from the Octopath Traveller games. Both H’aanit start with one animal companion that has an active role in the story. H’aanit has a leopard and Ochette can choose between a fox and an owl companion. Additionally, they can capture weakened monsters and add them to their team so they can summon them in battle for various attacks and effects. I feel like either could work by just focusing on their default companion or summoning various different beasts for different specials. I’ve brought up a similar idea for a few Pokemon trainers but I think the Octopath hunters fit this idea perfectly.

I also heard Borderland brought up in the discussion around Palworld. I’m surprised that series doesn’t get more attention than it does regarding Smash. The games sell really well, the whole franchise is available on Switch, and there’s a huge cast of colorful characters with unique abilities that could translate really well into Smash characters.

 

[fogbadge]

My stance is that I’m okay with AI generated or enhanced art as long as the person making it is upfront and honest about what they’re doing and what programs they used. The problems for me come from when people try to pass it off as entirely their own work or steal other people’s material. It seems like too many people and corporations are being dishonest and trying to hide the fact that they’re using AI. That just hurts them in the end when people inevitably find out and call them out like what happened with Wizards of the Coast.

For example, my brother and I have been creating our own characters for most of our lives. Our latest work involved my brother drawing the character in pencil, going over it in pen, scanning it and blocking in basic colors in Photoshop. At that point, I did all the shading in Photoshop. Last year, my friend recommended us to try Stable Diffusion. We ran several of our characters through and made a lot of touch ups and adjustments to the output ourselves in Photoshop and posted them on Artstation along with our fully original art. Each of our drawing were run through at least 50 or so times and we stitched together the best parts from the top results in Photoshop as well as cleaned up problem areas like hands. For the AI enhanced characters, we titled them all as such and described the programs used and process in the description. Even with AI, we still put several hours of work into each character to each character before and after using it to try to make them look as good and true to our intended design as we can.

If Palworld is just fully automating all the work and stealing content to do so, then I feel like it’s probably best to keep it out of Smash. I only have very basic knowledge of the game as well as what I’ve been reading here. If any of that is wrong and the creators put legitimate input, work, and creativity into the game then I’ll revise my opinion.

i've been creating characters and stories for most of my life too. which is in part why i resent the use of AI art. the creative industry is basically impenetrable for newcomers as it is and AI is just gonna make it worse. there's enough creatively bankrupt people in the world without AI making it easier for them as well as making it harder for actually creative people.

I think the "Pokemon with guns!" controversialness is attracting more people.

these'll be the people who haven't played any other monster catching games

I'm going to be honest, I don't think it is. Palworld's release has been a little too widespread and explosive to just be riding off of an ongoing artistic debate regarding the role of AI in the creation of works. I didn't know about the controversy until I came in this thread, actually, but I was aware of Palworld's success through family.

i was under the impression they were just straight up taking other people's assets.

I'm not sure if the Manga came first or the idea of Clefairy being the mascot came first, but the two are likely correlated.

Clefairy was indeed considered for the mascot but Pikachu was decided because of being more "gender neutral" in design while Clefairy would appeal more to girls.

that makes sense