Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I think the fanbase sleeps on Dark Souls a lot. Like, it's acknowledged that the inclusion makes sense, but they never seem at the forefront of predictions. And of the series that wouldn't get included due to fanbase demand, I think they're as good a bet as anyone else. Maybe behind Monster Hunter and Resident Evil.

You would be surprised how many predictions around E3 2018 by gaming websites and channels popped up for Ultimate that treated Solaire of Astora as a frontrunner. It died down by the time the roster was nearly shown off, but still. There was a point in time Dark Souls was seen in the forefront.

 

[MBRedboy31]

On the topic of live service games, I want Fall Guys to at least get a stage. I don’t see it being enough of a priority to get a character, but a stage would still convey the game’s vibes pretty well!

 

[dream1ng]

You would be surprised how many predictions around E3 2018 by gaming websites channels popped up for Ultimate that treated Solaire of Astora as a frontrunner. It died down by the time the roster was nearly shown off, but still. There was a point in time Dark Souls was seen in the forefront.

If memory serves, that was incredibly close to when the port and Solaire amiibo released, which probably accounts for a not insignificant amount of that speculation.

And continued the trend of people thinking non-Smash amiibos were actually also going to be Smash related.

 

[Louie G.]

I think the fanbase sleeps on Dark Souls a lot. Like, it's acknowledged that the inclusion makes sense, but they never seem at the forefront of predictions. And of the series that wouldn't get included due to fanbase demand, I think they're as good a bet as anyone else. Maybe behind Monster Hunter and Resident Evil.

I used to propose that Dark Souls may be the next Namco series in consideration, something that I've since cooled off on a tad but I still maintain has a decent enough chance of happening. Around FP2 we falsely believed Tekken may be out of the conversation as well, so Tales vs Dark Souls was the dominant Namco discussion and I would even say Dark Souls may have started to win out a bit. Lloyd's absent Mii Costume raised some eyebrows, but it felt like Dark Souls was more in line with the kind of philosophy we were seeing through the other DLC choices while Lloyd felt more typically Smash spec.

As it stands now, I'm unsure if Dark Souls strikes me as a base roster pick but I can see them pursuing it as a later collaboration. I think Lloyd is probably still on the table as well due to his persisting popularity, Tales and Dark Souls have about the same amount of commercial success but I do think it's worth noting that Dark Souls reached that in about half the time... and doesn't factor in tangential games like Elden Ring. While it's not quite representative of the Namco "brand" we've seen picks like Bayonetta and Joker stray off toward subsidiary IPs so I think it'd be plenty reasonable to see Namco do the same.

 

[fogbadge]

I did't saw the Live on Live Service Games, and I thought you we're talking abou Sega.

oh well, no harm done

 

[Perkilator]

Considering Solaire has an amiibo, I think he should’ve at least gotten a base game Spirit as well.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I love Dark Souls and the Chosen Undead is one of my top most wanted newcomers, but for some reason Dark Souls doesn't strike me as a series that actually gets in Smash.
It feels like the general Nintendo fanbase just doesn't care much about these games, and they're way more drab and somber than pretty much anything in Nintendo's catalogue.
Would love to get proven wrong, though.

 

[CannonStreak]

I did't saw the Live on Live Service Games, and I thought you we're talking abou Sega.

Wanna know something? Back when they first founded, Sega was known as Service Games. Really, they were.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Considering Solaire has an amiibo, I think he should’ve at least gotten a base game Spirit as well.

I'm legit surprised he didn't considering we got Spirits for all the Shovel Knight characters with amiibo along with compatibility for said amiibo.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I’ll champion a Dark Souls character til the day I die if it means we get the music.

an ornstein and smough boss fight would actually go kinda hard now that i think about it

especially if they're a secret boss designed with souls-type diffuculty, lol

 

[dream1ng]

I used to propose that Dark Souls may be the next Namco series in consideration, something that I've since cooled off on a tad but I still maintain has a decent enough chance of happening. Around FP2 we falsely believed Tekken may be out of the conversation as well, so Tales vs Dark Souls was the dominant Namco discussion and I would even say Dark Souls may have started to win out a bit. Lloyd's absent Mii Costume raised some eyebrows, but it felt like Dark Souls was more in line with the kind of philosophy we were seeing through the other DLC choices while Lloyd felt more typically Smash spec.

As it stands now, I'm unsure if Dark Souls strikes me as a base roster pick but I can see them pursuing it as a later collaboration. I think Lloyd is probably still on the table as well due to his persisting popularity, Tales and Dark Souls have about the same amount of commercial success but I do think it's worth noting that Dark Souls reached that in about half the time... and doesn't factor in tangential games like Elden Ring. While it's not quite representative of the Namco "brand" we've seen picks like Bayonetta and Joker stray off toward subsidiary IPs so I think it'd be plenty reasonable to see Namco do the same.

Are people just talking about base roster with all of this speculation? Because unless I specify otherwise, I'm just talking about the next Smash as a whole.

I mean a good deal of what we talk about are third-parties, and chances are way more of them end up as DLC than as base inclusions.

To your point, I actually think Dark Souls is likelier than Tales - it just has a more effective grasp globally. Not that I don't think Tales is also entirely plausible. But I would be quite surprised if we got a Namco series that wasn't one of those two (counting Elden Ring under Dark Souls, even though it's... not - but I do expect it to enter the conversation if we get a Switch 2 port).

I'm legit surprised he didn't considering we got Spirits for all the Shovel Knight characters with amiibo along with compatibility for said amiibo.

Well they were already in talks with Yacht Club for the AT, presumably due to the ballot, not the amiibo.

 

[Louie G.]

It feels like the general Nintendo fanbase just doesn't care much about these games, and they're way more drab and somber than pretty much anything in Nintendo's catalogue.

To some extent you're correct, but I feel as if Dark Souls carries a certain level of Nintendo-esque game design too. Sure it's dark and dreary, but if you look at it a certain way the fundamental gameplay loop of learning to exploit a boss' weakness and rendering previously crushing challenges a piece of cake is not dissimilar to something like Punch-Out. Nintendo thought it to be a pretty big deal to get Dark Souls on Switch at the time, enough to put out that amiibo, so I feel like they hold the series in high regard and I'm certain Sakurai of all people must feel similarly.

I also feel like the "Nintendo fanbase", at least the way I'm interpreting this label in this context, being ignorant of a certain type of game is all the more reason to let Smash introduce them to it. The reason I love Smash so much is that it's spurred me to learn more about characters and series I may not have otherwise cared about. In previous games it would be within Nintendo's own catalogue, but through the course of Ultimate we saw characters like Joker and Terry added and effectively swayed legions of fans to love them. Persona may have been the most widely successful initiative here because there seemed to be a massive surge in the series popularity within Nintendo circles after that point. And as we know, Nintendo / Smash fans are a bit adverse to more traditional fighting games and Smash has done its service to ease everyone in. So I think Dark Souls, in its widespread success and influence, is strongly validated by this.

Are people just talking about base roster with all of this speculation?

Not particularly, I just feel the need to make the distinction sometimes.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yeah Tales and Dark Souls are definitely the next Namco franchises on the table. No other franchises come close.

We have to stop treating Klonoa like some sort of frontrunner.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Well they were already in talks with Yacht Club for the AT, presumably due to the ballot, not the amiibo.

Yeah, but Namco was involved with both Smash and Dark Souls.
Even if there's still the FromSoftware angle, you'd think having Solaire's amiibo being compatible with a Spirit and maybe a Mii Costume for a Spirit Battle would be a relatively easy thing to feature.

Hell, even a DLC Mii Costume too.
Dark Souls getting NOTHING confuses me now.

 

[Ivander]

On the topic of live service games, I want Fall Guys to at least get a stage. I don’t see it being enough of a priority to get a character, but a stage would still convey the game’s vibes pretty well!

A stage would be great, but if anything, a Fall Guy Mii Costume with an additional Mii Fighter voice that uses the Fall Guy voice clips from the game would be perfect.

You would be surprised how many predictions around E3 2018 by gaming websites and channels popped up for Ultimate that treated Solaire of Astora as a frontrunner. It died down by the time the roster was nearly shown off, but still. There was a point in time Dark Souls was seen in the forefront.

Heck, before Sora was revealed, Dark Souls was among a lot of people's first guess when they saw that lone flame, a major theme in Dark Souls. And Dark Souls was still quite a top contender for a DLC character, especially before Kazuya was revealed when Namco still only had 1 character.

 

[dream1ng]

I love Dark Souls and the Chosen Undead is one of my top most wanted newcomers, but for some reason Dark Souls doesn't strike me as a series that actually gets in Smash.
It feels like the general Nintendo fanbase just doesn't care much about these games, and they're way more drab and somber than pretty much anything in Nintendo's catalogue.
Would love to get proven wrong, though.

Well that's why it wouldn't be included due to demand. But most third-parties aren't included due to demand.

Nintendo fans also haven't spent that much time talking about King of Fighters or Tekken. Persona seems to resonate with the fanbase more (go figure), but it was barely on a Nintendo system prior to Joker. Sometimes DLC seems to very much go for the series outside the Nintendo sphere.

And I think Dark Souls hasn't resonated more due to a mix of not being on Nintendo much plus the non-Nintendo-like aesthetic. I mean Nintendo fans have been behind a Resident Evil inclusion since Brawl with Leon, and that's a pretty non-Nintendo-y series, but it's one with much stronger Nintendo connections.

Yeah, but Namco was involved with both Smash and Dark Souls.
Even if there's still the FromSoftware angle, you'd think having Solaire's amiibo being compatible with a Spirit and maybe a Mii Costume for a Spirit Battle would be a relatively easy thing to feature.

Hell, even a DLC Mii Costume too.
Dark Souls getting NOTHING confuses me now.

Well yeah it is From, not just Namco. That likely was a factor. Not that it couldn't be overcome, or that it would necessarily even be tough (though From strikes me as a fairly particular dev to work with) it's probably just that making that extra step wasn't priority.

But I don't think Namco got any new IPs represented that weren't there last time.

I was more surprised KOS-MOS wasn't anything. I wasn't expecting a character, but given her ties to Xenoblade and Nintendo/Monolith, and how Namco seems cool to add her to whatever, I thought some sort of appearance seemed probable.

 

[SPEN18]

It feels like the general Nintendo fanbase just doesn't care much about these games

You could say that about a lot of the third parties in Smash

I get what you're saying about the tone not matching up and I'd be inclined to agree, though again I would also say the same thing about some of the third parties who are already in Smash

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Not gonna lie the more time goes by the more Jonesy kinda becomes part of my wishlist for a future smash bros character.

Maybe include some of his other outfits over the games story as alt skins.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah Tales and Dark Souls are definitely the next Namco franchises on the table. No other franchises come close.

We have to stop treating Klonoa like some sort of frontrunner.

Klonoa isn't even ahead of SoulCalibur.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

The most Klonoa could ever hope to get is a spirit and that's being generous.

I love the Klonoa games but i know how niche they are.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Not gonna lie the more time goes by the more Jonesy kinda becomes part of my wishlist for a future smash bros character.

Maybe include some of his other outfits over the games story as alt skins.

This moveset video convinced me that he really can be a fun and unique fighter even alongside other building characters like Steve, and while there are just a few nitpicks I have with it (him having 5 swappable weapons is a bit much, I'd personally make it 2 or 3), Jonesy is more suited for Smash than anyone would believe at a glance.

TL:DW he's got guns, a sticky grenade, a teleport recovery that can catch other opponents, and a building mechanic that requires Jonesy to interact with the opponent to gain resources. It's a pretty good moveset, if you have the time I'd recommend watching this or at least listening to it in the background.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah Tales and Dark Souls are definitely the next Namco franchises on the table. No other franchises come close.

if it's all the same to you i'm gonna stick with delusions and tell myself it's digimon

 

[RileyXY1]

Just a reminder that what we see as "likely" does not affect what we'll actually get. Nobody thought we would get a Persona rep before Joker was revealed, and many people believed that if Atlus was getting a rep we would instead get a Shin Megami Tensei character instead.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

if it's all the same to you i'm gonna stick with delusions and tell myself it's digimon

Something we can agree on.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Just a reminder that what we see as "likely" does not affect what we'll actually get. Nobody thought we would get a Persona rep before Joker was revealed, and many people believed that if Atlus was getting a rep we would instead get a Shin Megami Tensei character instead.

And those people look silly because Persona is the money maker lol

 

[Speed Weed]

Klonoa's great but I definitely feel like, in terms of discussion within the community and how viable of a candidate he's seen as, he's coasted hard on being the type of aesthetic that appeals to Smash fans for many years. Namco references him plenty so I don't think a smaller form of content is implausible, but I do think for a very long time he managed to get by on being one of the more mascot-y Namco characters - I don't even think it's a Nintendo association thing cause his games are most famous on the Playstation.

Anyway if we want a Namco scrimblo may I introduce you to our lord and savior Don-Chan

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Silly topic but somebody needs to bring it up sooner or later: Palworld in Smash.

 

[Louie G.]

My totally-won't-happen-but-wish-it-would niche Namco pick would be Prince of All Cosmos. At the very least I'd love to see them pepper in some Katamari content somewhere, there are a few songs that lean into the greater Namco arcade library that I think would fit perfectly on a Pac-Man stage. Truth be told, the music is the most important part but I just think this series would offer such a fun presence.

To echo what Speed Weed said a bit, yeah I think Klonoa is a byproduct of the era of Smash 4 speculation where we got high on our supply of platforming mascots. I think that stretch of Sonic / Mega Man / Pac-Man bliss has had ripples that are still being felt today regarding which characters are deemed to "fit" or "make sense" in Smash. In all fairness, those three are still kind of my gold standard of Smash third parties. It just happens that it provoked a lot of conversation about characters like Rayman or Klonoa as sensible next steps, who no disrespect intended are a few levels beneath.

Actually, people used to straight up skip over Pac-Man to talk about Klonoa sometimes (or Lloyd, even). Which was completely ridiculous, but contextually we were in the middle of the dreaded Ghostly Adventure stage of his history and I guess... Klonoa had Pac-Man on his hat? Lmao

 

[Perkilator]

Silly topic but somebody needs to bring it up sooner or later: Palworld in Smash.

Nah; that plagiarist, AI-generated garbage heap shouldn’t be rewarded at all.

 

[Speed Weed]

Anyway, on the topic of Jonesy and his many different variants, I was looking through some stuff the other day and I stumbled upon this apparently recent new version of him, and uh

why he got the Ryoma Nagare fit

 

[Will]

Silly topic but somebody needs to bring it up sooner or later: Palworld in Smash.

Pass, next question

Anyway, on the topic of Jonesy and his many different variants, I was looking through some stuff the other day and I stumbled upon this apparently recent new version of him, and uh
View attachment 383297
why he got the Ryoma Nagare fit

The government took his banana friend away and restarted the universe so now he needs help from Peter Griffin from Family Guy to get him back

 

[fogbadge]

My totally-won't-happen-but-wish-it-would niche Namco pick would be Prince of All Cosmos. At the very least I'd love to see them pepper in some Katamari content somewhere, there are a few songs that lean into the greater Namco arcade library that I think would fit perfectly on a Pac-Man stage. Truth be told, the music is the most important part but I just think this series would offer such a fun presence.

To echo what Speed Weed said a bit, yeah I think Klonoa is a byproduct of the era of Smash 4 speculation where we got high on our supply of platforming mascots. I think that stretch of Sonic / Mega Man / Pac-Man bliss has had ripples that are still being felt today regarding which characters are deemed to "fit" or "make sense" in Smash. In all fairness, those three are still kind of my gold standard of Smash third parties. It just happens that it provoked a lot of conversation about characters like Rayman or Klonoa as sensible next steps, who no disrespect intended are a few levels beneath.

Actually, people used to straight up skip over Pac-Man to talk about Klonoa sometimes (or Lloyd, even). Which was completely ridiculous, but contextually we were in the middle of the dreaded Ghostly Adventure stage of his history and I guess... Klonoa had Pac-Man on his hat? Lmao

well I’m gonna have that stuck in my head rest of the night

 

[dream1ng]

Just a reminder that what we see as "likely" does not affect what we'll actually get. Nobody thought we would get a Persona rep before Joker was revealed, and many people believed that if Atlus was getting a rep we would instead get a Shin Megami Tensei character instead.

No one claims we can predict every character, but the fanbase does get some predictions correct. Inkling, K. Rool, Isabelle, Banjo and a Dragon Quest character were not uncommonly predicted before any reveals/leaks narrowed things down, and once we knew about echoes, Chrom, Dark Samus and Ken were all among the more predicted. Incineroar and Byleth were both among the regularly predicted characters for their series spots, Min Min was both the leading and winning choice for the ARMS guessing game, and Sora wasn't necessarily thought of as likely, but people refused to abandon the idea it would happen until the point it happened.

I bet you of the characters right now that are thought of as "likely", many won't get in - but several will. The batting average certainly isn't great, but it's not like we ever get shut out.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Incineroar and Byleth were both among the regularly predicted characters for their series spots

......beg pardon?


Can we not be attempting to rewrite history today, please?

 

[Noipoi]

Incineroar only became the most predicted Pokemon for Ultimate after some leaker tossed his name out. Before that everyone was 100% positive it’d be Decidueye, including Incineroar fans.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Nah; that plagiarist, AI-generated garbage heap shouldn’t be rewarded at all.

Pretending like Pokemon itself wasn't ripping of Dragon Quest.


If the threat of Palworld does anything to get Pokemon to get off it's ass and up it's game, then it's existence is welcomed.

 

[Louie G.]

Incineroar

It's not as if discussion of Incineroar was entirely absent, it had crossed my mind, but Decidueye was definitely the frontrunner until Vergeben opened his mouth. I agree with the general sentiment though, I think we get too involved in the weeds of "the Smash community can't predict anything" to neglect all the stuff people generally did get right. It's kind of a tired thing to say at this point.

Though of course that's always going to be scattered, most people anticipated Isabelle was going to be an echo fighter so it was surprising to many (not me) that she was treated as a completely new character. Personally, I was also anticipating Simon Belmont as the next sensible third party as far back as Smash 4. The base roster was not all that insane or unpredictable - it was the DLC, chosen in part by corporate Nintendo and not necessarily Sakurai. So it makes sense that it was a bit harder to track than otherwise. But I wonder, with how far out the gates have swung, if there's less genuinely surprising third parties than before? What will shellshock the community if characters like Doomguy or Master Chief have become the expectation? In a post Joker, Terry and Sephiroth world what other fan rules or community blind spots are left to rupture?

If anything I think the blind spots next game will be putting too many eggs into the baskets of those high demand third parties, being stuck in the rut of asking for content from the same old series rather than more recently successful and active ones, lapses in judgement about whether or not x or y series needs something new. Which is to say a lot of the same, just now with so many more third parties in the equation that will likely not be influencing the roster at launch too much anyway. But it's gonna be hard for everyone to come back down to a reasonable level when the expectations have been set so high.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Incineroar only became the most predicted Pokemon for Ultimate after some leaker tossed his name out. Before that everyone was 100% positive it’d be Decidueye, including Incineroar fans.

I wasn't. :V

 

[Ivander]

Pretending like Pokemon itself wasn't ripping of Dragon Quest.


If the threat of Palworld does anything to get Pokemon to get off it's ass and up it's game, then it's excitence is welcomed.

Because Dragon Quest is really just one epic bug-collecting adventure. And dragons are just bigger bugs.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Pretending like Pokemon itself wasn't ripping of Dragon Quest.

PKMN is actually "Megami Tensei for Kids".

Edit: What the heck is a "Demi Kids"!?