Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[chocolatejr9]

I still think the issue with Pauline is...how does she dance?

Like, what moveset could they give her that actually fits and doesn't feel forced? With at least with Rosalina, she's a powerful space deity person that also commands the Lumas, so there's a bit more to go off with her. She and her lumas are also essentially the heart of the story of at least the first Mario Galaxy.

Pauline in the context of Odyssey on the other hand, outside of singing Jump Up Superstar!...isn't really that important. She has a major role in one level and goes into the background for the rest of the game. And not only that, she doesn't really display any special skill or ability, she's just some ordinary woman who sings.

I see some people say "oh, just pair her up with Cappy!" but again that just feels forced, considering she and Cappy have virtually no relationship to each other, unlike Rosalina and the Lumas. Some people say "oh, just give her a moveset based on arcade DK, i.e have her throw barrels"...and to me, that's like giving Peach a move where she breaths fire.

Easy, give her the Minis from Mario vs Donkey Kong. She DID help market them in-universe, after all...

 

[Geno Boost]

I mean, look at how the Mario spin-offs seem to be handling her rn. I wouldn’t be surprised if she gets in next time. Her trajectory in the series at least with the modern Pauline is mirroring Rosalina’s to an extent. I wouldn’t be shocked if she gets into the next game if her star keeps rising and she becomes a spin-off staple like Rosalina did.

I think if we get a rep from a Chinese game, Genshin Impact is standing head and shoulders above the competition. Genshin is huge, especially in Japan, and it shows no signs of slowing down. Legit I think Aether/Lumine from Gensin is super slept on and I would not be shocked if the next game has super mainstream picks for outside of Japan like Jinx and Aether/Lumine. Both of those picks also do a good job of pushing Nintendo’s expansion into Asia as well, so I wouldn’t be shocked.

I think League of Legend would be a bigger deal when it comes to Chinese gaming community and Tencent has already made games for Nintendo which might make more sense to pick a character from League of Legends.

 

[SPEN18]

non captain toad has been the star of two games

Sure but a lot of fans didn't know or didn't care about those. Captain Toad being a main character was still used to support arguments for his inclusion, especially since Treasure Tracker was a higher-profile, more recent release than the games I think you're talking about.

 

[fogbadge]

Sure but a lot of fans didn't know or didn't care about those. Captain Toad being a main character was still used to support arguments for his inclusion, especially since Treasure Tracker was a higher-profile, more recent release than the games I think you're talking about.

i thought we’d all collectively agreed that relevance doesn’t matter? Also the main character thing shouldn’t matter considering the number of people who support characters who’ve never been a main character

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Personally I'd be pretty surprise to see Pauline getting in before Waluigi as the "popular Mario characters in Party and sports games". You could argue that Daisy was also surprising, but she's here pretty much only because she could get in as a echo fighter.

 

[Dinoman96]

Easy, give her the Minis from Mario vs Donkey Kong. She DID help market them in-universe, after all...

tbh I think it'd be kinda weird to see Smash glorify something as minor as Mario vs. Donkey Kong. Let's be real, the main reason anyone cares about Pauline is because of Donkey Kong and Mario Odyssey.

 

[SPEN18]

Personally I think the Zelda roster is in bigger need of a total rehash than the Fire Emblem roster.

I agree with this. For FE I would just add Lyn and make a few cuts. And when more FE games get released we'll have to consider characters from those as well. But Zelda is much more complicated; at this point I basically just agree with Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf out of the current ones on the roster, but even then I'd switch Link back to classic form and Ganondorf's moveset is of course a subject of great debate.

i thought we’d all collectively agreed that relevance doesn’t matter? Also the main character thing shouldn’t matter considering the number of people who support characters who’ve never been a main character

Somebody asked why people want Captain Toad rather than Toad. I answered that by giving some reasons why people might want Captain Toad over Toad; I wasn't trying to say whether I agree or disagree with those reasons.

No, I don't personally care for relevance arguments and I don't have a problem with adding non-main characters, although being a main character can certainly help.

Sorry if the purpose of my post wasn't clear.

 

[PeridotGX]

I can't really bring myself to be genuinely hyped for regular toad, he definitely deserves to be in but he isn't very interesting (an assertation I think sakurai agrees with). I think Captain Toad would be more interesting because he would (probably) be a superheavy that doesn't have a massive hitbox, which is both unprecedented and something there aren't a ton of options for. Even then, he's not my ideal Marioverse rep (that goes to Kamek).

 

[SPEN18]

that goes to Kamek

Care to make an argument for Kamek?

 

[Chuderz]

Honestly I don’t think it’s too hard to solve the Jungle Hijinx problem. Literally just turn Hazards Off for Jungle Hijinx by default when Stage Morph is on.

I'd like this solution for stage-morph enabled default selection.

Expanding upon that solution I'd also like for them to allow for the split between the two stages in the toggle between FD and BF stages as something Jungle Hijinx 1 & 2 or something. This would allow the background stage to act a traditional stage for the first time!

No, I was thinking they'd just be on a separate button. There's two jump buttons, so you could switch it for one of those.

(Oh, maybe it wasn't clear - this is the new version of Final Smashes, they wouldn't coexist.)

Although I was also thinking about turning ZL (currently a duplicate shield button) into a modifier trigger. By default, ZL+attack could do a smash attack, ZL+special could do the new super mechanic, and ZL+jump could do a short hop. Those are all things people have wanted separate buttons for.

Other changes I was thinking of making.

• L is now the "Rush" button. In the air, it's the airdodge replacement, being more of an airdash instead. It's a lot quicker and less committal, but isn't invincible. I was thinking on the ground it could be some kinda diet wavedash, but I'm not entirely sure on that.
• Aerial smash attacks.
• Shielding can be done in the air now. (Also, shield health is now unrelated to shield size, and is shown by cracks traveling through the shield instead.)
• Grabs and throws can be done in the air as well. Kind of necessary to add counterplay to air shielding.
• Sweetspots are much less of a thing. Almost every attack will have consistent damage across all of its hitboxes. The exceptions are on characters and moves where that's kind of the whole point (like Marth, Roy, or Ridley's Skewer).
• Between down air throws and consistent hitboxes on spikes, this game's gonna have too many ways to murder people at low percents. So, I'm bringing back meteor canceling, but only if you're below 100% when you get hit by the spike.
• Backwards ledge attacks. They can be done by hitting B while on the ledge. Your character will attack behind them and be unable to get trumped off the ledge while doing so.
• All walkoff blast lines now have KOF Stadium barriers on them.

I like your ZL modifier idea. It's really extensive and has multiple applications. I think of it as like a "focus" input or something to that effect. I'd like to ponder the potential usage of it some more too.

I'd have to think some more as to whether I'd like grabs and shields to be done in the air because it'd be a massive reshift to the game's meta. I think airdodges mostly suffice don't they? I fear this would only lead to people having more options to camp. A part of the reason I want to give everyone a counter is too mildly nerf rushdown play some so that those types of characters aren't as overwhelming to other fighter archetypes and to punish careless play by rushdown players more. I also think losing shield-poking would be a blow to the game.


I think sweetspots and different types of damage/effect boxes add depth to the game so I'd be sad to see them go. I main Cloud and I love the feeling of sweetspotting my DAIR and FAIR for the spike. I understand the frustration with Smash team's history and continued practice of putting in moves that fundamentally aren't working like they should (Falco's Up-Smash is a notorious one) but I think getting rid of these hitboxes that make attacks fundamentally different would just make the game plainer.

Metorcancelling should definitely come back to offset the power of spikes. I absolutely agree with that.

I'd love to ability to toggle KOF stadium-style blast walls onto any stage not just walk-off ones. Imagine getting smacked off-stage only to have your bad DI saved by a blast wall! Obviously not very competitively minded but it'd be lots of fun for casual play.

In regards to your ledge-special idea I don't know what much I would say other than it'd make edgeguarding a bit easier. Rivals of Aether 2 are doing something with their game that I'm still waiting until beta to see how it plays out. Basically they're adding Pummel-Specials, Get-Up-Attack-Specials and Ledge-Specials. The Pummel-Special is to basically drop mashing out of grab in favor of a "rock-paper-scissors" like guessing game where if both the grabber and grabbed input the same button (A or B or more specifically Pummel or Pummel-Special) then the grab is broken. The grabber can choose to not participate in this guessing game by simply opting to not input either in favor of just throwing. I legitimately wonder how it'd work because my thought is if the player grabbing is fast enough to input any button before the grabbed player does that count as a win for the grabber? My guess is that there'll be a short window of opportunity afforded to the grabbed players to input something before it counts as a loss. These Pummel-Special will also apply debuffs I think like poison or burn.

Get-Up-Attack-Specials are basically just going to be a character-specific mix-up option and something I'd love for Smash to implement to this game. In the video I'll link below (that I timestamped for Ledge-Specials) you'll see Ranno's (the frog) normal Get-Up-Attack at 0:22 and then his Get-Up-Attack-Special at 0:26. Interesting stuff!

Ledge-Specials are similarly mix-ups for getting back onto stage from the ledge. You can still jump, roll, climb up from the ledge or Ledge-Attack but now with this new Ledge-Special you're offered (from my understanding at least) a two-in-one option of either of the aforementioned option. In the trailer below (I'll timestap it for ya) You see Wrastor (the bird) do his Ledge-Special that acts as a sort of Hero's Zoom with a hitbox. I'm sure other characters will have their own unique approach to this feature. Very interesting stuff and I'd love to see Smash implement this in the future.

Get-Up-Attack-Special and Ledge-Special would add more depth to the game and wouldn't get in the way of anything. Pummel-Special as well if it didn't come with the "rock, paper, scissors" style approach and simply worked as a powerful, albeit slower, pummel option.

 

[PeridotGX]

Care to make an argument for Kamek?

Kamek would be the first character to be a real magician. We have a few characters that use rpg-style magic (Zelda, Hero, Robin), but Kamek would be using stereotypical, witch and wizard style magic. He has a broomstick, he casts spells, all that stuff. He can also be a summoner-type character. He could summon enemies to support him (as Magikoopas do in SMW and Mario Maker), and them augment their abilities to make them even more formidable (akin to what he does in Yoshi's Island and NSMB Wii). When it comes to demographic-based inclusion, he would serve as a direct antagonist to Yoshi (potentially even having the egg logo), and would also be the first elderly character.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

There is a certain novelty to getting another (and realistically only) pseudo rep from the Yoshi series, and there's enough game appearances to pull something fairly interesting from him. I mean, if Piranha Plant can get a halfway decent moveset, Kamek shouldn't be that hard.

 

[Geno Boost]

if we end up getting Digimon rep at some point in the future i will probably start supporting Puppetmon because he is so damn cool

he is very unique as he is both gun and hammer user which is very rare concept in video games the only other character i know that is both gun and hammer user is Smithy from SMRPG.
tbh i dont care if his chances are 0.000001% of happening

 

[chocolatejr9]

if we end up getting Digimon rep at some point in the future i will probably start supporting Puppetmon because he is so damn cool

he is very unique as he is both gun and hammer user which is very rare concept in video games the only other character i know that is both gun and hammer user is Smithy from SMRPG.
tbh i dont care if his chances are 0.000001% of happening

Wonder if I could get away with supporting a Digimon that debuted in one of the video games, like Hudiemon or something. I know virtual pets are a type of video game, but I mean more in the traditional(?) sense...

 

[Chuderz]

I can't really bring myself to be genuinely hyped for regular toad, he definitely deserves to be in but he isn't very interesting (an assertation I think sakurai agrees with). I think Captain Toad would be more interesting because he would (probably) be a superheavy that doesn't have a massive hitbox, which is both unprecedented and something there aren't a ton of options for. Even then, he's not my ideal Marioverse rep (that goes to Kamek).

I'd prefer Captain Toad too because it's still Toad just with a distinct identity that sets him apart from other Toads.

I love this moveset concept for him. I'd still give him a jump though by either ignoring the lore completely or having him spawn an airpump device in front of himself when he jumps that he immediately pushes when jump is inputted causing an air-sprout/nossle or whatever in his backpack to blow air from below turning the top cover into a makeshift backpack paraglider like device allowing Captain Toad to ascend vertically. I'd still make them garbage jumps similar to Steve though.

 

[Laniv]

Speaking as someone who would gladly have any Toad in Smash, Captain or otherwise, I would pick regular Toad based on personal preference. However, I wouldn't say no to the Captain, or even a composite moveset, taking inspiration from both Toads.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Both would be interesting.

Toad is a very notable character with tons of unique potential.

Captain Toad is very different in his abilities and works well as his own thing.

About the only things they share are voices and personalities, but they're still very different in the end. That said, Toad's my main preferred one.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Toadette could be interesting, as Toad has so much source material that limiting it to just Toadette still feels like it could create a fascinating Moveset. Maybe a fusion of Toad and Captain Toad here?

 

[chocolatejr9]

Speaking of Mario, um...

This is Miyamoto. After consulting with Chris-san, my partner at Illumination on the Super Mario Bros. film, we decided to move the global release to Spring 2023–April 28 in Japan and April 7 in North America. My deepest apologies but I promise it will be well worth the wait.

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) April 26, 2022

Technically off-topic, but is something going on with the animation industry? The Spider-Verse sequals got delayed, Netflix nuked its animation division (including cancelling an animated Bone series), and now this? I can't be the only one thinking SOMETHING'S going on behind the scenes...

 

[SPEN18]

. When it comes to demographic-based inclusion, he would serve as a direct antagonist to Yoshi (potentially even having the egg logo), and would also be the first elderly character.

Yeah, Kamek definitely has enough interesting moves to pull from. If he got in I assume it would be to represent Yoshi, since as a Mario character he's a ways down the line. The questions are whether we consider Yoshi as a big enough series to warrant multiple reps (in any case I don't think 2 would be total overkill) and whether Kamek himself is a memorable enough part of it. Idk if he has like a true standout appearance?

 

[Ivander]

Speaking of Mario, um...

This is Miyamoto. After consulting with Chris-san, my partner at Illumination on the Super Mario Bros. film, we decided to move the global release to Spring 2023–April 28 in Japan and April 7 in North America. My deepest apologies but I promise it will be well worth the wait.

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) April 26, 2022

Technically off-topic, but is something going on with the animation industry? The Spider-Verse sequals got delayed, Netflix nuked its animation division (including cancelling an animated Bone series), and now this? I can't be the only one thinking SOMETHING'S going on behind the scenes...

Isn't Netflix nuking it's animation division in part with the fact that they recently lost a lot of money and a whack load of subscribers due to them raising their subscription prices as well as them wanting to put in ads?

Regardless, I wouldn't be so hasty in having conspiracy theories behind what's happening with animation when the Netflix situation is a far different case compared to Spider-verse and the Mario movies being delayed. Those movies still exist while the Netflix animations are getting outright cancelled.

 

[Chuderz]

I'd prefer Birdo to be Yoshi's second rep. Sure people would grumble about her not being in an actual dedicated Yoshi game but they're always patterned up for games that call for partners so that's enough of a justification for me. They could easily remedy this by having her appear in an actual Yoshi game somewhere down the line too.

I'd really like Waluigi to be considered a Wario rep for similar reasons. It's kind of dumb that he hasn't shown up in a Warioware game at this point. Like Nintendo just being petty but imagine my shock at Nintendo potentially being needlessly petty.

 

[Simnm]

Those people who say that adding league of legends to smash because of the chinese market is forgetting that china would even allow a game like smash to be sold there in the first place

 

[Lionfranky]

if we end up getting Digimon rep at some point in the future i will probably start supporting Puppetmon because he is so damn cool

he is very unique as he is both gun and hammer user which is very rare concept in video games the only other character i know that is both gun and hammer user is Smithy from SMRPG.
tbh i dont care if his chances are 0.000001% of happening

As for Digimon rep, it's Agumon or bust. They would want to put Digimon that can capitalize on Digivolution mechanic which Puppetmon doesn't have. I would be cool with Puppetmon being fighter though.

 

[Lenidem]

Yeah I don't think she plays an important role in any of the spin-offs, does she? Like, being a recurring character is great and all but if you're barely doing anything in any of your appearances then it hardly pushes your status above one-offs.



Now see, before the success of the LM sequels I would've said Galaxy's legacy was definitely bigger. And Galaxy's legacy is still pretty big. But now with LM seemingly being a continuing series for the foreseeable future with its sales ever-growing, things could be changing; these days it's more plausible to argue LM is worth giving a dedicated rep. What are your thoughts on E. Gadd vs. King Boo for such a rep?

--



I think part of it comes from the Captain Toad games being Toad's chance to actually be the main character. Many people assumed he wasn't in because he was too much of a secondary/tertiary character. And the Captain moniker also counteracted the "generic mook" label that detractors would put on Toad.

I think that being a recurrent character, even in the spin-off, is a big argument in your favor. I would totally welcome Waluigi, for instance. The problem I have with the spin-off crew is its weirdness. Having a few mooks is nice - in particular, I think Koopa Troopa and Shy Guy have earned their place - but they shouldn't get in the way of actual characters. And there are so many great characters in the Mario-verse, especially if you consider - and I think they should consider - the sub-series: Wario Ware and Land, DK Country, Luigi's Mansion, Yoshi...

As for King Boo vs E. Gadd? E. Gadd for the win. No hesitation. He's cute, he's funny, he has a unique design, and his sarcasm makes him stand out in the Mario-verse, while King Boo is no more than a generic evil villain, and just the big version of a regular enemy (although with a great redesign).

 

[fogbadge]

if we end up getting Digimon rep at some point in the future i will probably start supporting Puppetmon because he is so damn cool

he is very unique as he is both gun and hammer user which is very rare concept in video games the only other character i know that is both gun and hammer user is Smithy from SMRPG.
tbh i dont care if his chances are 0.000001% of happening

i dunno. to many of the characters in this game have friends so he get beat way to easily

 

[HyperSomari64]

Ninja Jajamaru-kun is well known in Japan (very influential). I can see him as the perfect Assist Trophy.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Yeah, Kamek definitely has enough interesting moves to pull from. If he got in I assume it would be to represent Yoshi, since as a Mario character he's a ways down the line. The questions are whether we consider Yoshi as a big enough series to warrant multiple reps (in any case I don't think 2 would be total overkill) and whether Kamek himself is a memorable enough part of it. Idk if he has like a true standout appearance?

To be fair Kamek doesn't really have any really big "standout appearance", but I think he's still worthy to be in Smash. He's the main antagonist in every Yoshi platformer except Yoshi's story on the N64. Alongside that, he also have big roles in New super Mario bros wii and New super Mario bros U. He also have a pretty big roles in most of the Mario rpg (this includes the original Mario RPG on the snes, Mario & Luigi partner in times, Dream team and Paper jam and Paper Mario sticker star, Color splash and Origami king).

Those people who say that adding league of legends to smash because of the chinese market is forgetting that china would even allow a game like smash to be sold there in the first place

Smash ultimate is already being sold in China, it's one of the few Switch games that released there.

 

[osby]

Today's not doing your research before posting hot takes day, apparently.

I'd prefer Birdo to be Yoshi's second rep. Sure people would grumble about her not being in an actual dedicated Yoshi game but they're always patterned up for games that call for partners so that's enough of a justification for me. They could easily remedy this by having her appear in an actual Yoshi game somewhere down the line too.

I'd really like Waluigi to be considered a Wario rep for similar reasons. It's kind of dumb that he hasn't shown up in a Warioware game at this point. Like Nintendo just being petty but imagine my shock at Nintendo potentially being needlessly petty.

Pretty much all WarioWare characters are designed for that series in particular. There's no reason for them to take a sports spin-off character and use him just because he has "wa" in his name.

Those people who say that adding league of legends to smash because of the chinese market is forgetting that china would even allow a game like smash to be sold there in the first place

 

[DarthEnderX]

I could have had the ultimate NES platforming showdown with View attachment 351236 as a playable character.

No NES platforming showdown would be complete without Hayabusa, Rizer and Arthur.

if we end up getting Digimon rep at some point in the future i will probably start supporting Puppetmon because he is so damn cool

he is very unique as he is both gun and hammer user which is very rare concept in video games the only other character i know that is both gun and hammer user is Smithy from SMRPG.
tbh i dont care if his chances are 0.000001% of happening

If they add another gun puppet to Smash before adding Geno...rioting in the streets.

Toadette could be interesting, as Toad has so much source material that limiting it to just Toadette still feels like it could create a fascinating Moveset. Maybe a fusion of Toad and Captain Toad here?

If they add Captain Toad, I can't imagine them NOT making Toadette and alt costume or echo.

You play as her through a huge chunk of Treasure Tracker and she has the same moves.

 

[Chuderz]

Today's just not doing your research before posting hot takes days, apparently.



Pretty much all WarioWare characters are designed for that series in particular. There's no reason for them to take a sports spin-off character and use him just because he has "wa" in his name.

Purposefully uncharitable to the point of absurdity. He's partnered with Wario when it comes up and canonically his bestie. He'd fit right in with the Warioware cast and that's non-debatable because if he fits in with Wario then he fits in with the rest of the wider Warioware universe too.

 

[Simnm]

Today's just not doing your research before posting hot takes days, apparently.



Pretty much all WarioWare characters are designed for that series in particular. There's no reason for them to take a sports spin-off character and use him just because he has "wa" in his name.



View attachment 351321

Wait really i didnt know
With how much paranormal stuff in smash im shocked it got localised

 

[Wonder Smash]

No NES platforming showdown would be complete without Hayabusa, Rizer and Arthur.

View attachment 351330

Definitely!

But for a Smash Bros. match, 8 characters is all I need.

For now, the Arthur Mii costume will have to fill in as an 8th character.

 

[HyperSomari64]

And the Bubble Bobble dragons, but i huess they can work better as Assist Trophies or stage hazard.

 

[DarthEnderX]

But for a Smash Bros. match, 8 characters is all I need.

You don't really need Ice Climbers in there though. Ditch them, get Rizer.

 

[Geno Boost]

i saw a whole Smash moveset concept for Cooking Mama which looks fun and interesting so i wanted to share it here
credit goes to MarkRandy685

Spoiler

 

[Wonder Smash]

You don't really need Ice Climbers in there though. Ditch them, get Rizer.

Maybe if he makes it in, I might will.

But then again, I might replace some other character with Bill instead.

 

[SPEN18]

To be fair Kamek doesn't really have any really big "standout appearance", but I think he's still worthy to be in Smash. He's the main antagonist in every Yoshi platformer except Yoshi's story on the N64. Alongside that, he also have big roles in New super Mario bros wii and New super Mario bros U. He also have a pretty big roles in most of the Mario rpg (this includes the original Mario RPG on the snes, Mario & Luigi partner in times, Dream team and Paper jam and Paper Mario sticker star, Color splash and Origami king).

Some good points here. He does appear in more games than one might think. However, in a lot of them he only appears intermittently and doesn't always get fought directly. Of course, a lot of plot-important villains don't always have a ton of screen time and gameplay-wise just account for boss fights. But in those cases I like to be able to point to some truly iconic moments and overall memorability and/or popularity of the character. Overall, Kamek is maybe more difficult to grade out than most would assume.

 

[Geno Boost]

what if we get Visual Novel character but its a Nekopara rep that game is on switch and the series managed to sell millions and had both anime and manga lol
apparently Coconut would make the most sense if there is Nekopara rep due to her having martial artist skills according to her description and being the most recognizable and popular to the series as well.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'd prefer Captain Toad too because it's still Toad just with a distinct identity that sets him apart from other Toads.

I love this moveset concept for him. I'd still give him a jump though by either ignoring the lore completely or having him spawn an airpump device in front of himself when he jumps that he immediately pushes when jump is inputted causing an air-sprout/nossle or whatever in his backpack to blow air from below turning the top cover into a makeshift backpack paraglider like device allowing Captain Toad to ascend vertically. I'd still make them garbage jumps similar to Steve though.

Not gonna lie , Captain Toad looks pretty damn cool with such a moveset. I'd love for him to make it on the roster despite never playing his games. Seems well deserved at this point, and am honestly confused as to why they opted for Piranha Plant instead of him.

I'll even go as far and mention Captain Toad amongst the first party characters I feel are most deserving for inclusion, so far I always said it was Dixie, Impa and Bandana Dee, but Captain Toad belongs there too I feel.