Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Digital Hazard]

Those are still two isolated examples and it's not like they have like 4-5 characters. For the most part there is a pattern with bigger series getting more, and I think this is how it should be. There are some anomalies and favoritisms here and there; I certainly don't think the rep numbers for each franchise are ideal. But there is easily a discernible pattern.

For KI, the culprit was just clear favoritism and good timing in 4. That's basically it, and it doesn't throw the whole concept of fair franchise-to-franchise representation into chaos even if you don't view it as ideal. Ultimate failed to reevaluate whether 3 KI characters was a good idea by doing EiH, but going forward I would expect at least Dark Pit to be low priority, even though being an Echo still gives him a good chance to come back.
On EB: Lucas was even cut in 4 at base, and probably only got into Brawl on the back of good timing and a little favoritism. He is likely to receive fairly low priority in the next game as well. Also remember that Itoi's relationship with the Nintendo higher ups is another big reason for the favoritism, and that Mother 2 and 3 have both managed to achieve "cult classic" status (even if this is partly due to Smash).

Don't think that I consider everything to be as it should be; in fact, things are pretty far from ideal IMO. But I don't want people to just give up on fair and balanced series representation just because Sakurai and Nintendo haven't done a perfect job of it to this point. It's not going to be perfect and there's going to be some circumstance and subjectivity involved, but I still think the goal is worth striving for.



Here you make a good point that they definitely have other priorities besides "proportional representation." Yes, at the end of the day they are going to do whatever is convenient for them within the circumstance, even if I don't always like it. I'm just arguing that there is still a general pattern with bigger series affording more roster space, particularly when they plan out the base game roster. And the inherent desire for this balance is likely to continue to drive demand for "underrepresented franchises," even if considerations like cloneability and recency bias continue to have undesirable effects on the roster balance.

Again, I don't want people to give up entirely on the idea of wholly and fairly representing the Nintendo history just because there is a mix of other considerations (like the commercial nature of Smash) which prevent these things from being as well-off as they could be.
Not that the commercial nature is entirely to blame; in many cases it actually supports the idea of giving more representation to the series that have contributed most to Nintendo's success, even if in other cases it fuels shameless promotion.

I highly disagree for a number of reasons...

But to make it as short as possible, there's too many factors. Why yes, KI got as much as it does thanks to developer bias, but no single human on Earth can be fully objective on anything. Was another developer to come next time, I am sure their biases would be introduced. Were they even more able

And how do we measure "fairness" in any way? If we go by sales, back to Earthbound, it's a series that performed very poorly until, of all things, a Wii U re-release; and yet it has influenced much more succesful games like Omori or Undertale. If we get to iconicness and profits, then every franchise should be dwarfed when placed next to Pokémon to the point Xenoblade gets as much stuff as Ice Climber currently does. Duck Hunt has sold 28 million copies and left a large mark, but it's just one NES game with barely anything in it, yet if we go by that, then we could justify making the the duck and the dog separate fighters. Metroid before Dread had sold somewhat more than Fire Emblem, but Fire Emblem has some more titles, but Metroid has influenced a whole sub-genre of platformers creating Metroidvanias, but Fire Emblem has been generating more money for Nintendo in recent times even after Metroid's return, so what is the fair point of comparison then?

I agree there's franchises with many titles that could be treated much better in Smash, Kirby and Donkey Kong being the de fecto ones. We will never see any "fair" representation, it we'll always see any sort of bias, be it the devs own, or corporate, and we're in a current mixture of both. Heck, if I was in charge of Smash, with full free reins you'd get all four Shovel Knight protagonists thrown in over any third parties, something I know would not be received well by a lot, but it's my biases.

And honestly... If "disproportionate" meant people got to discover Earthbound and make stuff like Undertale which my sibling adores, and if "disproportionate" has led me to be happy at seeing the care given to Kid Icarus stuff being a series I love, I'd rather get things remain "disproportionate", just while also still throwing fans of the big guys a bone, Magolor is amongst my MW admittedly and Piranha Plant is one of my mains.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Something to keep in mind is KI only got so much stuff in the 3DS version because the models were easy to transfer over. If the game didn't exist, we at most would've gotten Palutena and probably her stage, along with normal music and maybe an enemy or two. Trophies, etc. In other words, way less. Dark Pit was just that easy to make and the team had outright ideas that were workable(something a lot harder to do with a Pikmin & Captain character, which requires more models to work with. It's no surprise Alph couldn't make it in. Dr. Mario also had nostalgia, and Lucina was already reworked from her original height to a Marth costume, but again, way easier to make). It's unfortunate, sure, but the clones in that game were based upon "ease of creation". No way a Pikmin captain would've been easy to begin with(especially with them having trouble working on the 3DS version in the first place).

Doesn't excuse Ultimate, but Pikmin was also a much more dormant series by that point, so it just missed the window anyway. It's also not nearly as popular a series as Fire Emblem or Metroid was at that point, which had straight-out many requests for Chrom(who got sidelined in Smash 4, making the votes easier to come in) and Dark Samus(which admittedly there's no clear reason why she was that popular. We just know she was).

Hopefully next game will have more Echoes. Pikmin & Alph would be a great spot, as long as they got some neat Pikmin to show off. Or at the very least change his taunts to better fit his personality... while not changing the hurtboxes, of course(of course, I mean Echo that emphasizes the important Pikmin, and if they don't do an Echo, fix his personality instead).

 

[SPEN18]

no single human on Earth can be fully objective on anything.

The point isn't to be perfectly objective, which obviously we won't be. Rather, it's doing the best we can to be as objective as possible, not just giving up completely because we can't do it perfectly.

And how do we measure "fairness" in any way? If we go by sales, back to Earthbound, it's a series that performed very poorly until, of all things, a Wii U re-release; and yet it has influenced much more succesful games like Omori or Undertale. If we get to iconicness and profits, then every franchise should be dwarfed when placed next to Pokémon to the point Xenoblade gets as much stuff as Ice Climber currently does. Duck Hunt has sold 28 million copies and left a large mark, but it's just one NES game with barely anything in it, yet if we go by that, then we could justify making the the duck and the dog separate fighters. Metroid before Dread had sold somewhat more than Fire Emblem, but Fire Emblem has some more titles, but Metroid has influenced a whole sub-genre of platformers creating Metroidvanias, but Fire Emblem has been generating more money for Nintendo in recent times even after Metroid's return, so what is the fair point of comparison then?

Don't treat "proportional" literally; this is part of why I've been putting it in quotes. It's not like we're going to try to craft some formula where we punch in the number of sales and the Metacritic scores on all the Mario games and compare it with the result for all the Kirby games, and then find that Mario is exactly 3.5 times bigger than Kirby. That's expecting an amount of precision that we simply don't have. Basically nothing about the Smash roster can be "measured" exactly, as you point out, but that doesn't mean we can't say that Zelda is bigger than Xenoblade or that Splatoon is bigger than ARMS or that Earthbound is bigger than Pandora's Tower. I'm sure that if you tried to say I'm wrong on any of those last three examples, then you would have a very hard time justifying it, statistically or otherwise. You can make a strong argument for a series having more or less reps even if this isn't an exact science.
Sure, maybe it's debatable whether Metroid is bigger than FE, but IMO debating which is bigger is the whole fun of looking at it this way; people will disagree and it's an open discussion, which is healthy for speculation. When people complain about the number of FE reps the root of it is usually that they don't value that franchise highly enough to think it should have so many reps, so we should evaluate that claim as best we can to see how much water it holds. You think the Duck Hunt game alone warrants two reps? Then go ahead, argue for it and see if you can convince anybody that it does. If it could be determined exactly then there would not be much point in speculating anyway.

It's almost like you're saying that if something is debatable then it's not worth debating.

People debate and make decisions based on issues with a huge number of factors all the time, in all different settings. You just consider everything and do your best.

Also remember that I said it isn't just the series, but also the individual characters within those series that have to be deserving. The more historical importance you can reasonably justify for a series, the more you might lower the bar, but we shouldn't lose in the discussion the fact that the individual characters are the stars of the game, anyway.

 

[Arcanir]

Something to keep in mind is KI only got so much stuff in the 3DS version because the models were easy to transfer over. If the game didn't exist, we at most would've gotten Palutena and probably her stage, along with normal music and maybe an enemy or two. Trophies, etc. In other words, way less. Dark Pit was just that easy to make and the team had outright ideas that were workable(something a lot harder to do with a Pikmin & Captain character, which requires more models to work with. It's no surprise Alph couldn't make it in. Dr. Mario also had nostalgia, and Lucina was already reworked from her original height to a Marth costume, but again, way easier to make). It's unfortunate, sure, but the clones in that game were based upon "ease of creation". No way a Pikmin captain would've been easy to begin with(especially with them having trouble working on the 3DS version in the first place).

Yeah, one of the big things with Echoes is that they have to be easy to make clones of the original characters as a means to save time and resources. Olimar and Pikmin, especially in Smash 4, were not easy characters to work on in the first place and making a clone even with minor differences could've been too much for the team at the time. So, the already low priority clone was pushed to the back while the easier and more popular ones like Lucina and Dark Pit got made instead, and thus Alph just couldn't be done with what was left. As you said that doesn't explain Ultimate, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a similar issue of him not being as easy (and again, less popular) to do as the other clones they chose.

Doesn't excuse Ultimate, but Pikmin was also a much more dormant series by that point, so it just missed the window anyway. It's also not nearly as popular a series as Fire Emblem or Metroid was at that point, which had straight-out many requests for Chrom(who got sidelined in Smash 4, making the votes easier to come in) and Dark Samus(which admittedly there's no clear reason why she was that popular. We just know she was).

Dark Samus I think she partially benefitted from the circumstances of the time. Sakurai pretty much shot down Ridley before the ballot ran, and while that didn't deter many fans as he still did well on it, I'm sure some did take it to heart and start looking for other candidates for the series. They go to Dark Samus, a character that has always been behind Ridley in terms of request, never reaching his peaks, but generally having a good support base nonetheless. So when Ridley looked to be out of the picture others probably took advantage and pushed her even more, and probably did just enough to get her noticed and become an Echo candidate.

Granted, this is also taking things in retrospect as at the time I'm sure she got pushback for being irrelevant and an AT, but ultimately with her and characters with similar issues in the game now that clearly didn't deter fans.

 

[Chuderz]

I also wanted to make some changes to my Sora revisions post I made because it didn't sit right with me even when I posted it.

Jab rework:

Light Jab visual reference: https://youtu.be/8EDfkMbpNK4?t=2

Heavy Jab visual reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeZ_J6sVdeo

Sora's new jab will be taking from the Ryu/Ken light/heavy hit gimmick. The light hit (quick-tap-jab) will be the last strike of his current jab. The unique animation where he takes his Keyblade and does 360 horizontal slice swing. It does just over 5% damage like it currently does.

Sora's heavy jab (hold-tap-jab) will be Strike Raid. Sora throws his Keyblade like a freaking Shuriken and after a fixed distance and once it reaches said distance it'll spin multiple 360-degree angles before it instantly teleports back to him. It's a multihit move with low knockback and does the same special damage smoke (colorful stars) that basically all of Sora's moves already do. Sora is vulnerable (a character without a moveset almost) while his Keyblade is out though but he can still shield, jump, spotdoge, airdodge (should he activate my Stopga gimmick the Keyblade will instantly teleport back to Sora) and grab and should he land a grab while his Keyblade is out during the Strike Raid animation it will instantly teleport back to him at anytime even before the automatic fixed distance teleport. If Sora moves where his Keyblade is during Strike Raid (whether he's hit to it or Sora himself dashes to it) it'll also be ported back into his hands. This attack functions very similarly to Prya's Blazing End but it's a good deal weaker but it's quicker and like I already said it instantly teleports back to Sora and he can still grab unlike Pyra. While the move is pretty self-explanatory the link as always is for visual reference.

NEW Dash Attack: https://youtu.be/GMYb5NDCUgA?t=299
Sora's new Dash attack will be his Sliding Dash from KH2. I guess they were going for more of a reference to his KH1 Sliding Dash but I don't even really feel like it's totally accurate without Sora using Keyblade as a means of generating the momentum for the dash like he actually does in KH1. Anyway with the KH2 Sliding Dash Sora lunges forward with his Keyblade pointing forward horizontally and at the point of contact all momentum will halt in order for Sora to end the attack with a quick spin attack but ONLY if he lands the initial strike. It's an automatic true-combo like he has in-game now with his Forward-Airs and Neutral-Airs. The secondary spin swipe can be repurposed from his jab (3rd strike of his current jab) or unique.


NEW Throws:
This is kind of where I feel Sora is very lacking. Other than the Up-Throw being a nice little reference to Sora using items and the pummel being serviceable I feel they're all way too basic. Brawlfan1 pretty much nails all the other throws by basing them on his various reaction commands from KH2. So I'm just going to link them because Brawlfan1 does a good job explaining the move with the accompanying visual reference and substantiating where it comes from. I really like his Back-Throw idea and I actually only don't like his Up-Throw idea which is perfect because I think Smash team's Up-Throw is good enough.

Forward-Throw: https://youtu.be/GMYb5NDCUgA?t=633
Back-Throw: https://youtu.be/GMYb5NDCUgA?t=649
Down-Throw: https://youtu.be/GMYb5NDCUgA?t=678

Shield-Special:
Sora will have a Shield-Special and it will be Aeroga! It'll incorporate his current Aeroga taunt completely animation, pose and voice line in all! Though as I've previously laid out in my design philosophy for Shield-Specials this attack will have to be held for a short while (about the same amount of time Inkling's ink storage goes from empty to full) before the attack functions as intended so if Sora doesn't hold the special input for the entire duration then the attack fails. He can only do this grounded and he can't shield during it.

We're going to add a little extra voice line and animation though. Sora will do his Smash trailer Keyblade spin. He starts the momentum for the spin with a swing from his back to his front and as the Keyblade reaches the front of his body he twirls the Keyblade 360 degrees a couple of times then finally at the end of the final spin animation he clasps his free hand to the hilt of the Keyblade and thrusts it vertically upwards (just like his current Aeroga taunt) and says "Wind!" as he does with his current taunt. During the start-up he'll also say "Let's go!" before he says the "Wind!" line so it'll be like "Let's go! Wind!" all together.

The actual attack will be a typical Smash gust of wind. It'll function a lot like Megaman's Up-Air in terms of the look of the attack and hitbox. It'll be a multi-hit move just like Megaman's Up-Air but it'll be wider and slower. It'll go just as far and in the same vertical trajectory.

Extended animation visual and audio reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=361LgylscdI&t=134s

Gimmicks:
I feel like with the appropriate creativity we could incorporate his other taunts into his actual moveset.

Dodge-Leniency:
Stopga will be Sora's passive Shield-Roll (I guess it's called dodge leniency) which will function like Bats Within and Foresight. The beautiful animation of the current taunt will stay but the vertical Keyblade thrust will be scrapped in this particular instance. If Sora rolls/airdoges or spotdodges just as an attack hits his shield Sora will say "Time!" and the opponent will be slowed for a brief just like the two aforementioned abilities. Just like the other "dodge leniency" abilities Sora will take half the damage the attack otherwise would have inflicted.

Floor/Tripped-Get-Up-Attack-Hold:
Curaga will be quite a little trick I feel like I figured out. Instead of some boring unlikely and clunky passive trigger I've instead come up with some much more accessible but still fairly pointless! Curega will be set to a Get-Up-Attack-Hold input! When Sora is downed he can tap the Jab-input to do a normal Get-Up-Attack like everybody else BUT if the player was to hold the Jab input Sora will do his normal Get-Up-Attack and then at the end of the animation he'll thrust his Keyblade vertically and say "Heal!" with animation and all! This will heal Sora about 1-3% either a fixed amount or randomly. It's basically useless because Sora's so floaty he's doesn't have many chances to use his Get-Up-Attack in general but it's also just a little weak heal that he has to take enemy damage to use in the first place and of course on top of all that he's open for another attack during the process of all of this but still sometimes you'll be able to get it off to reap the small the benefit it has to offer. The vertical Keyblade thrust in this instance has a small and weak hitbox at the tip of the blade.

Passive:
Last but certainly not least I want to give Sora the Peach/Daisy float passive ability just like he has in his games. I mean he even did it in the trailer! Sora is so light that I think it can easily be justified.

Conclusion:

This is my final revision to Sora just like I just recently did with Banjo. I'm extremely happy with both now and feel like they're both now perfect as they are. The only thing I'd like Sora to have at this point is a Roxas echo and more costumes and Keyblades using the Y button at character selection.

Link to my Banjo moveset on the previous page!

Official - Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

i would guess its cause so many people still put stock in things like popularity and a series influence. even though youd think terry and bayo would kinds disprove that Not sure if they do. I think Terry especially was there to please the more silenced type of Smash fans, as he's fastly more...

smashboards.com

 

[ahemtoday]

Hey I wanted to update my Banjo revisions because I thought of a fun redesigned gimmick that I felt fitted much better than the my old "double aerial input" one that could be awesome in Banjo's hands and gave the player much more control. I also thought of a Dragon Kazooie gimmick.

My primary justification for giving Banjo more aerials is to give his "two that fight as one" philosophy Sakurai was operating under more defining traits and I feel it can be justified with Kazooie being a bird/dragon.

Dragon Kazooie Gimmick:
In the character select screen you can now press the Y button to shift between standard Breagull Kazooie and Dragon Kazooie and this will offer one slight gameplay change. Dragon Kazooie will shoot fire eggs where any blue eggs are used in the moveset (so just the Neutral-Special) and when Banjo holds Kazooie for Breagull blaster mode she becomes a walkable flamethrower similar to Bowser and Charizard's Neutral-Specials and just like those specials the flame diminishes the longer the player holds the Special input.

I think this can be justified with Pyra/Mythra working this way with both having completely different specials and Pokemon Trainer have completely separate characters and even echoes like Ryu and Ken having completely different moves.

Wonderwing system improvement:
You can now earn two more golden feathers for Banjo's wonderwing attack per stock! You just have to land two wonderwing attacks in a row! Any damage counts as a connection. If you miss (like using wonderwing purely as a recovery option for example) you get reset back to 0. You can do this twice per stock until it stops registering. When you earn the feather this jingle plays.

Jingle audio reference: https://youtu.be/yhwzqNicz34?t=82

Blue Egg Shot improvement:
Neutral-B needs to allow for double-quick consecutive egg shots before restarting the animation if you're to do it again. Doing this SLIGHTLY extends of attack animation of Neutral-B to afford time for the extra egg. Banjo fans know what I'm talking about. Where before Banjo starts holding Kazooie for the Breagull blaster. It's very similar functionality to a double jab input just with your special button instead. Basically Kazooie can quickly shoot two eggs out before the animation restarts is what I'm saying which is much more inline with how the attack functioned in their original games.

These will be fire eggs if the player chooses Dragon Kazooie.

Grenade Egg improvement:
Make the grenade egg last 1 second longer.

Alright now onto the new stuff for Banjo!

Clockwork Kazooie Egg Shield-Special input:
Shield-Special is Clockwork Kazooie eggs. Make it so that you have to hold the B button until the Clockwork egg is manufactured in the attack animation. This means you're very vulnerable (no shielding) while laying these eggs. If you let go of the B button before it's ready the Clockwork Kazooie egg will malfunction and not work. When it does work it functions EXACTLY as Bowser Jr.'s Down-Special. That means you can pick it up and throw it as well as let it cycle through its functionality phase. It's really just a reskinned version of that (Bowser Jr.'s) attack. The time it takes to get through the attack animation is about the same time it takes for Inkling's shield-B to go from empty to full ink storage.

New expanded aerial kit:
Banjo & Kazooie get twice as many aerial inputs furthering Sakurai's design philosophy of "two that fight as one" for them. All attack aerial directions will receive an extra attack option with more on the "second neutral air" detailed below. Another aspect of this design philosophy, that being "two that fight as one", is that if Banjo attacks for the current aerial then Kazooie will be given an aerial in the same direction and vice versa. So basically Banjo & Kazooie's tilt/smash-stick aerials will be wholly unique from their directional-jab (A) input aerials. I think this gimmick gives the player much more control over this concept than the double-input idea did.

UP-AIR:
The first directional-jab (A) Up-Air input will be Banjo doing an aerial horizontal or somersault kick very similar to Zero Suit Samus and Mario.

DOWN-AIR:
The new directional-jab (A) Down-Air input will be Banjo doing a double downward kick exactly like Piranha Plant, K.Rool and Dr. Mario's Down-Air. It will have a small spike sweetspot hitbox more similar to Plant and K. Rool.

BACK-AIR:
The new directional-jab (A) Back-Air will be Banjo performing a turnaround kick exactly like Sonic's Back-Air.

FORWARD-AIR:
The new directional-jab (A) Forward-Air will be Beak Bomb a classic move in their arsenal that makes its exclusion almost criminal. It launches the player forward (the with classic "Yup-Oh" voice line with an appropriate Kazooie voice clip finishing the attack) but not nearly as much as it does in the original game. It takes the player about as far forward as ROB's Back-Air's does only Banjo's area of attack (hitbox) is in the same direction as the trajectory traveled. This move will have a chunky amount of start-up and end lag though so it's highly punishable and using it as an alternate recovery option (as a means to save Wonderwing feathers) is not recommended when below the stage. Here's a visual reference for anybody interested in seeing it: https://youtu.be/IdZ6j-QCtDk?t=61

ZAIR:
Finally we can get around the seeming impossibility of using this control scheme to create a "second" Neutral Air by simply giving Banjo and Kazooie a ZAIR. Their ZAIR will be an aerial Pack Whack and again it's criminal that this move is missing. This move could be done in the air in their original game so I feel it's justified here. Banjo's grab will remain the same he just has an aerial-attack located on his grab input. Banjo spins his back-pack horizontally around himself once for a full revolution around. Here is a visual reference: https://youtu.be/Op8etWmdp3A?t=214

These aerials also dig deeper into the idea that well Kazooie is a bird so their aerials can be a little bit more in-depth like this.

Conclusion:
I really like Banjo's moveset in Smash but I feel (like many others) it could be much more. That's basically why I only suggested improvements and additions as opposed to getting rid of anything. I know his transformations are still the obvious missing element but I have another more theoretical idea on how to incorporate those moves that I won't get into on this post.

So when it comes to big overarching character mechanics like this, I tend to take the view that "extraordinary claims mechanics require extraordinary evidence". Meaning: if you're gonna give a character some unique resource, or a fifth special, or a buff at high damage, or especially a second moveset they can switch to, that thing's gotta be rock-solidly baked into who the character is. It has to be so integral to representing them and their game that the character would feel gutted without it. And I will be honest: not a lot of these types of mechanics qualify, even in official movesets. I've talked about it before in here.

With that in mind: My issue with these changes is that they don't pass my test. Clockwork Kazooie Eggs are a fine concept for a Banjo & Kazooie special, but nothing about their game suggests that they should have a shield special (not that I can think of any characters that would). Similarly, giving them a second set of aerials isn't really supported by the game either. And Dragon Kazooie is, as far as I can remember, not even actually required to obtain anything in the game? Which wouldn't prohibit it being a special (if this were suited to such a thing), but my standards are sky-high when it comes to something you can select on the CSS, and Dragon Kazooie is below the bar.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The character was specifically included for being the most popular character from the Smash Ballot that they could actually get at the time

"actually get" meaning "already got", because Smash 4's DLC was finalized before the ballot.

So by process of elimination, that boils the realizable choices down to:

1. Bayonetta
2. K. Rool
3. Dixie Kong

Which still puts Bayonetta at #1

No. The realizable choices were:
1. Bayonetta
2. Corrin

Because those were the 2 that were already chosen. So...grats Bayonetta on being more popular than Corrin.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Whilst am always flattered to see people list Donkey Kong as one of the under represented series, alongside Kirby, I feel that Zelda is also criminally under represented and needed a newcomer already since Smash 4 at the very least. The Melee cast +/- Toon or Young Link just don't cut it anymore...

I also think Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee and Impa are just about the most deserving newcomers for first party characters, but outside of Bandana Dee am not sure if they're gonna make it to the next game. I suspect Cranky making it before Dixie, and any other new Zelda character making it over Impa.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Whilst am always flattered to see people list Donkey Kong as one of the under represented series, alongside Kirby, I feel that Zelda is also criminally under represented and needed a newcomer already since Smash 4 at the very least.

Are they?

Or are Mario, Pokemon and FE just overrepresented?

Fewer 4+ characters in a series, more new series please.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Are they?

Or are Mario, Pokemon and FE just overrepresented?

Fewer 4+ characters in a series, more new series please.

Good luck trying to advocate Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem with less than 4 characters on the roster. It's especially hard with Mario and Pokemon, which are the biggest namesakes in gaming as a whole and had two characters since the first game.

Though I admit in Mario's case I could do without Dr.Mario and Piranha Plant.

 

[osby]

Honestly, my problem with rep count arguments boils down to people fighting about which clones to cut.

Like, in most cases, we know that those characters are added in "spare" development time so by getting rid of them, how exactly you're going to improve the game? It feels like fans satisfying their own egos by making sure the undeserving characters won't sully their perfect roster.

 

[fogbadge]

Whilst am always flattered to see people list Donkey Kong as one of the under represented series, alongside Kirby, I feel that Zelda is also criminally under represented and needed a newcomer already since Smash 4 at the very least. The Melee cast +/- Toon or Young Link just don't cut it anymore...

I also think Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee and Impa are just about the most deserving newcomers for first party characters, but outside of Bandana Dee am not sure if they're gonna make it to the next game. I suspect Cranky making it before Dixie, and any other new Zelda character making it over Impa.

well DK is on of nintendo's top 10 biggest selling series last i checked. (might actually have been 10) which FE still isnt

 

[Lenidem]

Good luck trying to advocate Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem with less than 4 characters on the roster. It's especially hard with Mario and Pokemon, which are the biggest namesakes in gaming as a whole and had two characters since the first game.

Though I admit in Mario's case I could do without Dr.Mario and Piranha Plant.

And without Rosalina I might say.

 

[fogbadge]

Honestly, my problem with rep count arguments boils down to people fighting about which clones to cut.

Like, in most cases, we know that those characters are added in "spare" development time so by getting rid of them, how exactly you're going to improve the game? It feels like fans satisfying their own egos by making sure the undeserving characters won't sully their perfect roster.

speak for yourself, most of the characters I want gone aren’t clones or echoes

 

[Geno Boost]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Say, what's that one team at Ubisoft responsible for the Mario + Rabbids games? While I HIGHLY doubt Nintendo would buy the whole company, I think that team at least would be a good fit...

Speaking of which, I wonder when we'll get another update on Sparks of Hope. Haven't heard a thing since E3.

It would be cool if Microsoft bought Ubisoft but I hope Its not Tencent or EA that would buy them.
I forgot sparks of hope it’s really weird there has been nothing to reveal since last year

 

[Yamat08]

(There's presumably a reason why Pyrosphere is one of the few stages that didn't return for Ultimate - it doesn't seem like it would have development difficulties like Orbital Gate Assault or Pac-Maze, but Ridley (or rather a clone of Ridley) being a prominent stage hazard seems to be why it was cut)

Come to think of it, they had no problems keeping Chrom in Robin's Final Smash. "Clone Ridley" probably could've worked (even if this was just some obscure factoid brought up in Ultimate's hints section or a Sakurai quote).

Home Depot?! Haaa man I got into speculation way too late.

Hey, the stage music would've actually been pretty based.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[JOJONumber691]

Honestly I don’t think it’s too hard to solve the Jungle Hijinx problem. Literally just turn Hazards Off for Jungle Hijinx by default when Stage Morph is on.

 

[Dinoman96]

Whilst am always flattered to see people list Donkey Kong as one of the under represented series, alongside Kirby, I feel that Zelda is also criminally under represented and needed a newcomer already since Smash 4 at the very least. The Melee cast +/- Toon or Young Link just don't cut it anymore...

I also think Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee and Impa are just about the most deserving newcomers for first party characters, but outside of Bandana Dee am not sure if they're gonna make it to the next game. I suspect Cranky making it before Dixie, and any other new Zelda character making it over Impa.

If it makes you feel better, I don't see any other new Zelda character getting in, period lol

 

[Lenidem]

If it makes you feel better, I don't see any other new Zelda character getting in, period lol

At this point, I sadly concur. Who knows though.

 

[RileyXY1]

If it makes you feel better, I don't see any other new Zelda character getting in, period lol

Well yeah. They don't seem keen to add one shot characters unless they're from a retro game or they're from a series that rotates out their protagonists on a regular basis.

 

[Dinoman96]

Well yeah. They don't seem keen to add one shot characters unless they're from a retro game or they're from a series that rotates out their protagonists on a regular basis.

I'd say one-off characters are more likely if:

1. they're the main character or mascot from the game they came from (FE protagonists, Ice Climbers, Lucas, etc)
2. they're derived from other characters (Dark Pit, Lucas again, etc)

Sheik is pretty much the one real exception in that regard, as (during the time of her inclusion in Melee) she was a one-off supporting character that also had an entirely unique moveset.

...but she's also, you know, just Zelda in another outfit. She just got in as part of a package deal with her in Melee.

I know there's "no rules" or whatever, but this really does not paint a pretty picture for any one off villains/supporting characters like Ghirahim, Raven Beak, etc.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think for some fans, it's not even a case where they must have six or more reps from the various franchises, just that it actually feels off to not have a few particular prominent characters like Dixie, BWD, & Impa in; the difference between mild disappointment of not seeing one-shots from an IP get a chance vs a sense that the franchise's representation in Smash genuinely feels incomplete.

 

[Dinoman96]

I think for some fans, it's not even a case where they must have six or more reps from the various franchises, just that it actually feels off to not have a few particular prominent characters like Dixie, BWD, & Impa in; the difference between mild disappointment of not seeing one-shots from an IP get a chance vs a sense that the franchise's representation in Smash genuinely feels incomplete.

I mean, yeah. At least those characters have a little more going for them outside of "UH this series needs to have more characters for the sake of doing so".

tbh even if Impa actually ever did get in, I feel like she'd just wound up as a Shiek echo or clone of some kind. So she wouldn't even fufill the "Zelda NEEDS a new character that isn't just a clone!" quota people want to see fufilled.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Hot take: I'm fine with Zelda not getting anymore characters at all in the future, because where the series is now in smash covers the important parts of the brand, the triforce itself. Don't really see a need to go beyond that.

 

[Lenidem]

Hot take: I'm fine with Zelda not getting anymore characters at all in the future, because where the series is now in smash covers the important parts of the brand, the triforce itself. Don't really see a need to go beyond that.

I would agree if all franchises were given the same "no more than the important" treatment.

 

[Dinoman96]

I would agree if all franchises were given the same "no more than the important" treatment.

At the very least, they've been fairly consistent in "no one-off supporting characters/villains". Like if Geno or Raven Beak were playable then yeah, I'd say a one-off Zelda character would seem more reasonable.

Outside of the one-offs, all Zelda even has left for candidates are like, Tingle and Impa. But even they have notable issues (the former has basically been Thanos'd out of the mainline series by western fans and NOA and the latter isn't even really a consistent character and would probably just wound up as a Sheik clone even if she did get in).

 

[PeridotGX]

The tricky thing with Zelda is that the problem isn't the number of characters, it's who they are. Half of the Zelda "characters" are just alternate versions of characters already present. I think having one additional Link is somewhat reasonable, but there being two is ludicrous and only happened due to Everyone Is Here. Sheik being her own character is also a bizarre relic of both Melee and Smash 3DS (though not the worst offender in this regard). The Zelda character that only has one version of himself on the roster is also a clone of a character from another series, and people seem to think the solution is adding a fourth Zelda double up.

 

[Lenidem]

At the very least, they've been fairly consistent in "no one-off supporting characters/villains". Like if Geno or Raven Beak were playable then yeah, I'd say a one-off Zelda character would seem more reasonable.

Outside of the one-offs, all Zelda even has left for candidates are like, Tingle and Impa. But even they have notable issues (the former has basically been Thanos'd out of the mainline series by western fans and NOA and the latter isn't even really a consistent character and would probably just wound up as a Sheik clone even if she did get in).

Yeah, well. Lots of characters who made it to the roster have "notable issues" too. I would absolutely love Tingle, by the way: he might not be "relevant" anymore, but so are plenty of other - Duck Hunt, Wii Fit Trainer, and many more. Not a big fan of Impa, but if she would come as a Sheik clone/Echo along with another "full" playable character that I actually want, I would welcome her as a bonus (ala Dark Samus/Ridley).

Sheik being her own character is also a bizarre relic of both Melee and Smash 3DS (though not the worst offender in this regard).

Also, I think Sheik's presence up to this day is a blessing. Had he be removed in Brawl to make room for another one-off, and so one for every iteration, I'd understand. But since it's not the case, I consider myself lucky to have him.

 

[fogbadge]

Also, I think Sheik's presence up to this day is a blessing. Had he be removed in Brawl to make room for another one-off, and so one for every iteration, I'd understand. But since it's not the case, I consider myself lucky to have him.

her

 

[SPEN18]

I think for some fans, it's not even a case where they must have six or more reps from the various franchises, just that it actually feels off to not have a few particular prominent characters like Dixie, BWD, & Impa in; the difference between mild disappointment of not seeing one-shots from an IP get a chance vs a sense that the franchise's representation in Smash genuinely feels incomplete.

Yeah just to be clear I don't want things boiled down to simple quotas. It's a combination of the franchise itself being notable and having iconic characters within it. In the extreme example, if there were literally only three characters that appeared in the whole Kirby series then we wouldn't be giving it four reps no matter how big it is.

my problem with rep count arguments boils down to people fighting about which clones to cut.

I don't think it's just about clones at all. But even if it were about clones, what's wrong with debating which ones are worth keeping and which ones are not? There's still a limited number which can be made, and they're all chosen carefully (or at least should be chosen carefully).

Clones aren't even strictly necessary anymore given the huge roster size so IMO they shouldn't even bother unless it's a character that could probably get in without being cloneable. Like, Isabelle is worth keeping due to the success of Animal Crossing and the success of the character herself, clone or not; if she can be represented properly as a clone and it eases the strain on resources, then it's a good or at least justifiable decision to make her a clone, but that's not and shouldn't be the reason for giving her high priority.

When you consider that the primary functions of clones are (1) padding the raw number of PCs on the roster and (2) adding a tinge of variety by providing a slightly different take on the same moveset (mechanically and aesthetically), you'll realize that they're nigh obsolete in the presence of 50+ unique fighters already providing unprecedented levels of said variety.

I know, it's not exactly realistic to expect them to decrease the number of clones dramatically; most people realized that after Smash 4 at the latest. Doesn't make me like it the way it is, though.

--

Lastly, no, I don't think anybody has argued here that just adding Impa is going to fix everything about the Zelda representation.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It is interesting to imagine Zelda representation in Smash if the former series had embraced spin-offs sooner than they did. A Hyrule Warriors that comes out in 2004 and Age of Calamity equivalent in 2010 potentially shifts a lot of fighter possibilities circa Brawl and Smash 4 respectively.

 

[Chuderz]

So when it comes to big overarching character mechanics like this, I tend to take the view that "extraordinary claims mechanics require extraordinary evidence". Meaning: if you're gonna give a character some unique resource, or a fifth special, or a buff at high damage, or especially a second moveset they can switch to, that thing's gotta be rock-solidly baked into who the character is. It has to be so integral to representing them and their game that the character would feel gutted without it. And I will be honest: not a lot of these types of mechanics qualify, even in official movesets. I've talked about it before in here.

With that in mind: My issue with these changes is that they don't pass my test. Clockwork Kazooie Eggs are a fine concept for a Banjo & Kazooie special, but nothing about their game suggests that they should have a shield special (not that I can think of any characters that would). Similarly, giving them a second set of aerials isn't really supported by the game either. And Dragon Kazooie is, as far as I can remember, not even actually required to obtain anything in the game? Which wouldn't prohibit it being a special (if this were suited to such a thing), but my standards are sky-high when it comes to something you can select on the CSS, and Dragon Kazooie is below the bar.

Hey thanks for reading it and offering your thoughts. I do massively disagree though with the approach of your criticism so keep that in mind if you want to read the rest of this response.

For me personally these ideas simply just have to pass the fun test and be creative approaches/implementations; either by utilizing buttons untapped/redundant (Shield-Specials/ZAIRS) in-game or something entirely unique. No character "needs" anything other than the standard kit. Anything past that is entirely subjective. Does Terry need his Go command input moves and Back-Special? Does Kazuya need his omnidirectional tilts? Does Sora need to be able to Side-Special after doing his Up-Special? Does Pikachu need to be able to Up-Special twice with one input? Do the Ice-Climbers need to be a duo? Does Cloud need to be able to actively charge his Limit by his own will? It's not an accurate portrayal of how it works in his game after all just as the time-limit nerf is also not accurate to the source material. Or is this all about making the character fun and applicable in Smash? I'd say so. Also more broadly are true combos necessary for any character?

I wasn't making the case that Banjo "needed" any of this. I was making the case on how to bring his moveset into a state that could be true to the character while making him more unique and fun to play. A lot of his fans (myself included) find his moveset to be lacking and especially in comparison with the other DLC characters. This is just how I'd personally go about it and I think it's a very inspired approach.

The idea of giving them a second set of aerials is about more fully realizing the "two that fight as one" design philosophy Sakurai was operating under when designing them by giving them something no other character has. I explained I felt it's justified with Kazooie being a bird/dragon. Again it's about what would be a fun and inspired implementation for them in Smash and no game every comes with the criteria for hard limit on aerials in Smash so I don't know what any character's game has to do with their number of aerials in Smash at all.

Similarly a Shield-Special isn't in any way a consequence of a character's game. Inkling's and Steve's Shield-Specials are a consequence of their implementation in Smash. I've also been suggesting it becomes a standard, completely grounded, special move across the entire cast among many other moves. Clockwork Kazooie eggs functioning as their Shield-Special is derived from this sentiment of mine but also the fact of reappropriated work being helpful in development with them being a complete one for one with Bowser Jr.'s Down-Special.

I don't see how Dragon Kazooie could be anything other than CSS toggle and I don't see how not needing the transformation to complete the game has even the most remote thing to do with representing the character in Smash either. It'd be a simple fun toggle option with a simple reskin for one move and one slight gameplay difference for the other that I think a lot of players would find very enjoyable in Smash. That's my priority what's fun and enjoyable versus what's "needed". Including Dragon Kazooie is just that and also a more complete representation of Banjo's limited releases. Dragon Kazooie is legitimately like the only side-quest in the series and a very fondly remembered one at that.

That all being said I still appreciate the response. I still don't at all agree with your reasoning or justifications and find your standards to be way too restrictive with them overall only serving to hamper down the fun factor of Smash implementation for seemingly no gain in particular other than some nebulous entirely subjective "need" being met. Now if you said they were unbalanced this way I could contextualize that somewhat better but that'd be an entirely different conversation with a completely different set of rebuttals of mine.

 

[PeridotGX]

Yeah, well. Lots of characters who made it to the roster have "notable issues" too. I would absolutely love Tingle, by the way: he might not be "relevant" anymore, but so are plenty of other - Duck Hunt, Wii Fit Trainer, and many more. Not a big fan of Impa, but if she would come as a Sheik clone/Echo along with another "full" playable character that I actually want, I would welcome her as a bonus (ala Dark Samus/Ridley).

Also, I think Sheik's presence up to this day is a blessing. Had he be removed in Brawl to make room for another one-off, and so one for every iteration, I'd understand. But since it's not the case, I consider myself lucky to have him.

If we're only going to have one Zelda one off, I would have preferred it being a character with a fun moveset. And if even that is too much to ask, I at least wish it would have been an actual separate character and not just an already playable one in cosplay.

 

[Lenidem]

her

In Ocarina of Time's French translation, Sheik is refered as a male, so I shall keep refering to him as such.

If we're only going to have one Zelda one off, I would have preferred it being a character with a fun moveset. And if even that is too much to ask, I at least wish it would have been an actual separate character and not just an already playable one in cosplay.

I can't think of a Zelda one-off character who would have a non-fun moveset. And again, having Impa as an Echo would only satisfy me (and many other, I guess) if she comes as a bonus, along with a "real" new character.

 

[fogbadge]

In Ocarina of Time's French translation, Sheik is refered as a male, so I shall keep refering to him as such.

makers of the game says she’s female. They get final say

 

[Lenidem]

makers of the game says she’s female. They get final say

They say what they want.
You say what you want.
I say what I want.

Everybody is happy.

 

[fogbadge]

They say what they want.
You say what you want.
I say what I want.

Everybody is happy.

ok but you’ll still be wrong

 

[SPEN18]

I get what you mean by a Sinnoh mon. I still think a Gen 9 or 10 mon will be TPC's desire whenever Smash 6's project plan is being worked out, but if Sakurai was able to assume total control here and pick a popular Pokemon choice instead of a "promotional" choice, I think Cynthia would work as a Pokemon Trainer system character, considering her popularity among the franchise's cast of human characters. The Hisui Pokemon Trainer could also possibly work in that regard, especially since it would give Sakurai a chance to revisit having Decidueye as a fighter (even if it isn't the normal Alolan version of it).

The thing about the Trainers is that they take a lot of resources, which is why we probably won't get another one. I am a big fan of Garchomp, though, so I wouldn't mind if it was like a "Cynthia's Garchomp" fighter where you play as Garchomp as a solo fighter but Cynthia is there in the background like the current trainer. Not that it's likely at all.

Sonic as a franchise hasn't gotten much proper growth in the last Smash installments, which indicates to me some sort of hesitation to give it attention

Yeah this is the concern with more Sonic reps: why hasn't it happened yet? Probably it's just the varying state of the series over the years, but maybe eventually things will line up for it.

his Assist Trophy is also pretty fighter-like already

Even the most "fighter-like" ATs are still pretty far from PCs, and it might have more to do with Zero having a human-like body with obvious fighter-like moves to use. Personally I don't put too much stock into what the AT does specifically (although the fact that these third party characters appeared as ATs at all might mean something).

I actually considered Hayabusa as a base game character,

Base game third parties have basically been retro-era reps minus Snake. This pattern might get broken in the next game I'll admit, since the floodgates are more open now. But I think to some extent they do value these retro-appeal third parties in base for some reason. Maybe it's a matter of public recognizability, or maybe you can cook up some Sakurai-bias conspiracy, or maybe it's just plain coincidence that the most demanded 3P reps were originally retro ones like Sonic and Mega Man. But in my mind it is easier to imagine Hayabusa as a rep along those lines in base compared to many of the other requested third party reps.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Yeah this is the concern with more Sonic reps: why hasn't it happened yet? Probably it's just the varying state of the series over the years, but maybe eventually things will line up for it.

My personal tin foil hat theory is that Sega is just SO traumatized by the "Sonic's ****ty friends" arguments from 2007 that they actively refuse to let Nintendo put other Sonic characters in smash, even when it makes perfect sense for him to have an echo fighter.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I suspect it's a case of Nintendo/Sakurai not really asking for additional Sonic characters given that he's the main appeal of the series and Sega not really interested in pushing the issue.