Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

I unironically like the design for the main character of Balan Wonderworld. For some reason, until a few months ago, I always though the game was called Balan Wonderland. I have no idea what made me think that lol.

i would guess cause wonderland is a prominent part of pop culture

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Okay, I know we've all agreed that Square Enix is a bit hard to work with (though admittedly, it's not entirely their fault), but here's some more fuel for that fire:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Not gonna lie, didn't expect more Balan Wonderworld drama in 2022...

I love dunking on Square, but Yuji Naka here is a super unreliable narrator. We know Balan had some difficult development issues, so Square tossing him out reads to me more like they were just trying to get the game done with and over with. Yuji Naka here has a very clear incentive to say that it was all Square's fault that the game turned out like that: he even stated in the past that his career and future could rest on Balan Wonderworld.

Square are no angels. They have made plenty of mistakes in the past few years alone. Their terrible Avengers game, not advertising NEO TWEWY enough, the whole fiasco over Chocobo Racing. You name it. But it is important to note that Yuji Naka has a very clear bias in this altercation. Did Square probably end up making the situation worse? Perhaps. But a lot of the issues people had with Balan were with its half baked gameplay and poor presentation. You can not drastically overhaul the game that much in six months. Even if Square did keep Yuji Naka at the helm, I doubt Balan would have been that much better when the core gameplay and physics were that rough and unfun.


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Anywho, on the writing team, we have been working on something fun and new in regards to smash speculation. While I will not tell you all when exactly this article will come out, I know that it at least is an interesting new idea in terms of viewing speculation. Don't expect it to be out this month. If I had to guess when the article would be out, I would guess in May. We had a lot of fun working on this article!

 

[Idon]

Do not trust Yuji Naka. That man is a liar and a scumbag.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I love dunking on Square, but Yuji Naka here is a super unreliable narrator. We know Balan had some difficult development issues, so Square tossing him out reads to me more like they were just trying to get the game done with and over with. Yuji Naka here has a very clear incentive to say that it was all Square's fault that the game turned out like that: he even stated in the past that his career and future could rest on Balan Wonderworld.

Square are no angels. They have made plenty of mistakes in the past few years alone. Their terrible Avengers game, not advertising NEO TWEWY enough, the whole fiasco over Chocobo Racing. You name it. But it is important to note that Yuji Naka has a very clear bias in this altercation. Did Square probably end up making the situation worse? Perhaps. But a lot of the issues people had with Balan were with its half baked gameplay and poor presentation. You can not drastically overhaul the game that much in six months. Even if Square did keep Yuji Naka at the helm, I doubt Balan would have been that much better when the core gameplay and physics were that rough and unfun.


----------------------------------

Anywho, on the writing team, we have been working on something fun and new in regards to smash speculation. While I will not tell you all when exactly this article will come out, I know that it at least is an interesting new idea in terms of viewing speculation. Don't expect it to be out this month. If I had to guess when the article would be out, I would guess in May. We had a lot of fun working on this article!

I get what you're saying, but considering he went as far as to file a LAWSUIT against them, I feel there's some truth here. Not even Avengers got a lawsuit against it (at least as far as I'm aware)...

 

[Idon]

I get what you're saying, but considering he went as far as to file a LAWSUIT against them, I feel there's some truth here. Not even Avengers got a lawsuit against it (at least as far as I'm aware)...

Considering that the producer, promotional partner, sound director, project director, and HR ALL wanted him removed, I'm going to say they had a point.

 

[Diddy Kong]

One thing about Square, they did a nice job on Triangle Strategy, anyone here played it?

 

[HyperSomari64]

Yet their characters still aren't in Brave Exvius.

 

[Dinoman96]

Yeah Naka's an ass and always has been. He's a good programmer but was never cut out for full blown game design and he was never SEGA/Sonic's Miyamoto. Hirokazu Yasuhara was the true game/level designer for the OG Sonic trilogy, and Naoto Ohshima was the true creator of Sonic the character.

Speaking of Naka and Yasuhara, just look at what this jerk had to say about the latter.

Yuji Naka interview by CVG (May 27, 2003) - Sonic Retro

info.sonicretro.org

Yuji Naka: Yeah, one of the guys from our team went to work on Jak and Daxter! As for the original titles, I was involved from the beginning, the creation of the game. The character was born in a kind of stream of creating, so I'm involved from the very beginning of the character. I gave the game direction, and I was the main programmer also.

So I was involved with every aspect of the original Sonics. Some of the details, like making a map, quite straight-forward stuff, was done by the guy who's working on Jak and Daxter right now. He was involved until Sonic 3, and after that for eight years he didn't do anything in Sega, so he was quite useless in Sega. We really didn't need him. He was really doing nothing with Sonic.

(context: Yasuhara left SEGA for Naughty Dog around this time)

You heard that one right, folks. Designing a Sonic stage is quite straight-forward stuff.

Honestly, **** him.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The problem is that Naka has had such a history of dubious behavior (just look up how he acted during Sonic X-Treme's development) that even with Square Enix's recent string of PR incompetence, it still feels more likely that the latter is the more innocent party in all this.

Yeah, the failure of Balan Wonderworld is somewhat rooted in SE not really understanding the appeal of platformers, but most of it lies in Naka's outdated instincts and stubborn refusal to embrace any sort of genuine complexity in his game design.

 

[chocolatejr9]

In unrelated news, we're one step closer to Crash and Spyro being considered Microsoft reps:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I'm amused that the Switch port of the N'Sane Trilogy will now retroactively be a Microsoft game, featuring a mascot once identified with Sony, for a Nintendo console, and (at least in Japan) published by Sega.

 

[Perkilator]

I just wish Activision was never under Bobby Kotick, just so I don't feel so bad about wanting Crash in Smash.

 

[Geno Boost]

Wonder if I could get away with supporting a Digimon that debuted in one of the video games, like Hudiemon or something. I know virtual pets are a type of video game, but I mean more in the traditional(?) sense...

i dont see the problem with the addition of Visual Novel, Virtual Pet, Hatsune Miku and Clippy from Microsoft.
i do think what defines something as being video game is:
being a playable electronic program + being a form of entertainment
also the fact that we did have Pictochat and Miiverse stages and Mario Paint and Vince assist trophies shows that these kind of contents dont break the rules.

 

[fogbadge]

i dont see the problem with the addition of Visual Novel, Virtual Pet, Hatsune Miku and Clippy from Microsoft.
i do think what defines something as being video game is:
being a playable electronic program + being a form of entertainment
also the fact that we did have Pictochat and Miiverse stages and Mario Paint and Vince assist trophies shows that these kind of contents dont break the rules.

dont forget theyre owned by nintendo so they probably have a huge amount of leeway

 

[HyperSomari64]

I always had the idea of Nintendo toys and other thingamajigs from their early years (1880s-1970s) as items that can give a help a playable fighter during a casual battle.

 

[Geno Boost]

dont forget theyre owned by nintendo so they probably have a huge amount of leeway

when it comes to nintendo you will notice that both Ash Ketchum and Captian N have never been present in any smash game so you can tell a clear difference regarding whats actually allowed

 

[fogbadge]

when it comes to nintendo you will notice that both Ash Ketchum and Captian N have never been present in any smash game so you can tell a clear difference regarding whats actually allowed

Ok then, notice that pictochat and miiverse were built into game systems and that Mario paint and art academy are considered games

also let’s not forget that Nintendo may deliberately not included certain characters like captain N or indeed startropics

 

[HyperSomari64]

also let’s not forget that Nintendo may deliberately not included certain characters like captain N or indeed startropics

Sora Ltd. doesn't want to acknowledge Nintendo's western franchises.

 

[Geno Boost]

Ok then, notice that pictochat and miiverse were built into game systems and that Mario paint and art academy are considered games

also let’s not forget that Nintendo may deliberately not included certain characters like captain N or indeed startropics

that depends on your definition of what's regarded as video game if you count these as video games then i dont see much difference others would say these are just bunch of applications to create stuff like photoshop its just that they are in different devices.

Mike jones at least was a sticker on brawl also Ash Ketchum should have at least be presented in some way in smash especially that he is one of the most popular nintendo characters but there is a clear reason why there has never been any type representation of him and that is not being of a video game origin which is rule that hasnt been broken yet the same thing goes for Captain N so his situation is different from Startropics due to that reason.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, Ash is mentioned in the Trophies. And they don't shy away from using anime references to begin with. But, hey, the Pokemon Anime is a huge part of Pokemon in general. Besides, related to what I'm saying below, Ash was featured in a video game at least.

Captain N never even appeared in a video game in some way. There's little to reference since he has no role in gaming in itself. It wouldn't really matter if he originated in a comic book or whatever at that point. Nintendo's gaming history is the thing that Smash goes over. ...Captain N isn't a legitimate part of that. Still would make a cool Mii costume though. At most they might give an allusion to the TV show existing(MegaMan and Simon Belmont meeting up is at best that, as they don't know each other in any other context before Smash Ultimate). And that's so minor it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[Dinoman96]

Sora Ltd. doesn't want to acknowledge Nintendo's western franchises.

It's more like they don't want to completely alienate their home audience by acknowledging games that were never published in Japan. Likewise they sure as hell aren't gonna reference Captain N when it never even aired in Japan lol

The only real exceptions are like, Elite Beat Agents, and the Kid Icarus Of Myths and Monsters sticker in Brawl. But both of those are attached to IPs that do have a Japanese presence anyways.

 

[dream1ng]

They'll include western franchises and western-skewing franchises in Smash, they're just not gonna focus on a western cartoon that went off the air over thirty years ago or two games for the NES that never released in Japan. It's not that crazy.

The Mii costumes, for instance, had a lot of western stuff. There will probably only be an increase in western presence on the roster next time. "Nintendo's western franchises" are incredibly insignificant, because keeping things outside Japan doesn't really make sense, so they rarely do that. It's not like the roster excludes Nintendo's western skewing franchises like Metroid and Punch-Out.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I always had the idea of Nintendo toys and other thingamajigs from their early years (1880s-1970s) as items that can give a help a playable fighter during a casual battle.

That reminds me, I myself have often wondered how Nintendo playing cards would work in gameplay.

 

[HyperSomari64]

That reminds me, I myself have often wondered how Nintendo playing cards would work in gameplay.

Like X-Men's Gambit, but more luck-based (like in the casinos).

 

[TCT~Phantom]

One thing about Square, they did a nice job on Triangle Strategy, anyone here played it?

A friend of mine is playing through it right now. Says it’s alright. They don’t like it as much as Octopath Traveller, but it’s something that is getting some love.

 

[fogbadge]

that depends on your definition of what's regarded as video game if you count these as video games then i dont see much difference others would say these are just bunch of applications to create stuff like photoshop its just that they are in different devices.

well MP and AA were made by video game companies for game consoles on game cartridges and were marketed as games.

 

[Geno Boost]

well MP and AA were made by video game companies for game consoles on game cartridges and were marketed as games.

Starting as a video game company is not a requirement for example we have a Disney rep in smash and they are not mainly a video game company.
Virtual Pet can be counted as it’s own video game device similar to Game & Watch as it’s just a single video game device and but I don’t think the marketing origin matters as the origin of the device or application itself can defined as video game due to full filling the basic definition.

 

[fogbadge]

Starting as a video game company is not a requirement for example we have a Disney rep in smash and they are not mainly a video game company.
Virtual Pet can be counted as it’s own video game device similar to Game & Watch as it’s just a single video game device and but I don’t think the marketing origin matters as the origin of the device or application itself can defined as video game due to full filling the basic definition.

i didnt say started as a video game company i said made by a video game company. no body would think that the company in question would need to have started as VG company when the company that owns smash didnt start as one back in 1889 long before tv was invented let alone gaming

 

[Gengar84]

One thing about Square, they did a nice job on Triangle Strategy, anyone here played it?

I’m in the middle of a play through at the moment. It’s a lot of fun so far but I’m not that far in. There seems to be a lot more story than gameplay up to this point. I think I’m around 10 hours in. The only real problems are that it can be kind of grindy and some of the voice acting is very questionable, like they didn’t hire professional voice actors and just had the staff voice the lines.

In unrelated news, we're one step closer to Crash and Spyro being considered Microsoft reps:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is great news for some of my own favorites from Blizzard. I’d love to see someone from StarCraft, WarCraft, or Diablo in Smash.

On another note, I think the week away from this board to clear my head helped a lot and shifted my perspective. While it would still be cool to see my favorite characters make it in Smash one day, I’ve come to the realization that they’re probably never going to happen. Rather than waste my energy trying to defend them here and why I think they’re deserving, I decided to instead shift to something that can actually get me all of the characters I want, modding Ultimate. I finally took the plunge last week and have been having a blast trying out all the awesome mods I’ve been missing out on for years. For example, there are already awesome Fulgore and Xemnas mods over Kazuya, who were two of my most wanted characters. I used to be really into making Brawl mods and I think it would be a lot of fun to try to learn again with this game. I’ll still hang around here and theorize the next game but, for now, I think my passion has gone to turning Ultimate into just that for me. I do love the game as is but there is so much potential for more cool characters that it’s almost endless. It seems like every few days, there’s a new character added to the game so there’s always a reason to stay excited.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

One thing about Square, they did a nice job on Triangle Strategy, anyone here played it?

I'm probably about halfway through right now, and Triangle Strategy is probably my favorite Final Fantasy Tactics style game at this point. The writing is really smart, and I rarely feel like the game hasn't considered my concerns when offering choices. I think it's only happened twice, and both times I was given closure on those things later. And the gameplay actually feels strategic, which is something I usually find lacking from this side of the genre.

I’m in the middle of a play through at the moment. It’s a lot of fun so far but I’m not that far in. There seems to be a lot more story than gameplay up to this point. I think I’m around 10 hours in. The only real problems are that it can be kind of grindy and some of the voice acting is very questionable, like they didn’t hire professional voice actors and just had the staff voice the lines.

I agree with most of this. The grinding is somewhat optional, though. The game scales experience really hard, so your underleveled units will gain levels in around two to five actions. I could understand if you don't want to put yourself through a harder battle than necessary, though. I mostly just grind for materials, and that's going to be preference from person to person.

The voice acting felt worse to me at the beginning and grew on me somewhat, though it might just be that I got used to it. My thought is more that the voice actors had no direction or context for their lines, like they were given a script with just their lines and recorded them at home. The writing also feels purposely antiquated, and that's a recipe for stiff VO work.

 

[Gengar84]

I'm probably about halfway through right now, and Triangle Strategy is probably my favorite Final Fantasy Tactics style game at this point. The writing is really smart, and I rarely feel like the game hasn't considered my concerns when offering choices. I think it's only happened twice, and both times I was given closure on those things later. And the gameplay actually feels strategic, which is something I usually find lacking from this side of the genre.

I agree with most of this. The grinding is somewhat optional, though. The game scales experience really hard, so your underleveled units will gain levels in around two to five actions. I could understand if you don't want to put yourself through a harder battle than necessary, though. I mostly just grind for materials, and that's going to be preference from person to person.

The voice acting felt worse to me at the beginning and grew on me somewhat, though it might just be that I got used to it. My thought is more that the voice actors had no direction or context for their lines, like they were given a script with just their lines and recorded them at home. The writing also feels purposely antiquated, and that's a recipe for stiff VO work.

I think part of my problem is that I’m trying to level every single character to the recommended level, whether I’m bringing them or not. I tend to do that in SRPGs like Disgaea. I end up using way too many units rather than focusing on just a few and they end up under leveled as a result.

 

[Dan Quixote]

And the gameplay actually feels strategic, which is something I usually find lacking from this side of the genre.

Totes agree with this part here. I just started the game last week actually, the game was kicking my ass for sure til the point where I got used to and started working with instead of around the back attacks, flanking attacks, and absolutely tiny maps. Feels very much like every turn is a big tactical moment.

 

[Sucumbio]

I think part of my problem is that I’m trying to level every single character to the recommended level, whether I’m bringing them or not. I tend to do that in SRPGs like Disgaea. I end up using way too many units rather than focusing on just a few and they end up under leveled as a result.

I'm going to try the demo before buying it but I also tend to level as many characters as possible if not everyone.

 

[Geno Boost]

there is something i am curious about i remember sakurai stated he didnt Takamaru and Ayumi due to them being japanese exclusive characters but now that its no longer the case why they havent been added yet?

 

[Dukefire]

there is something i am curious about i remember sakurai stated he didnt Takamaru and Ayumi due to them being japanese exclusive characters but now that its no longer the case why they havent been added yet?

Maybe it was too late for their inclusion with Sakurai. Ultimate was wanting to go big on the most requested characters.

 

[fogbadge]

there is something i am curious about i remember sakurai stated he didnt Takamaru and Ayumi due to them being japanese exclusive characters but now that its no longer the case why they havent been added yet?

in fairness ayumi international release was after the last character was finalised

 

[Geno Boost]

in fairness ayumi international release was after the last character was finalised

pretty sure sakurai is aware of the games that has yet to be announced way before any of us

 

[Sucumbio]

I dunno about way before... Actually I don't even think it's within weeks maybe -a- week... Nintendo crazy about leaks and the fewer people know the better...

 

[SPEN18]

there is something i am curious about i remember sakurai stated he didnt Takamaru and Ayumi due to them being japanese exclusive characters but now that its no longer the case why they havent been added yet?

Well, them getting in would probably be via filling a slot explicitly dedicated to an NES-era retro rep, and there didn't seem to be such a slot this time around (likely due to EiH and less unique newcomers in base overall, and them wanting a more recognizable character for the promo bonus slot). It probably takes more than what they've gotten (remakes, rereleases, and cameos) to be seriously viewed as more than one-off-NES-game types.
I don't think being Japan-exclusive was the only reason they weren't in, even if it was the one cited by Sakurai. They're both smaller series even after their Western releases, and even among the one-off NES games, they're still smaller names than the likes that have already been repped (even Ice Climber).

Maybe it was too late for their inclusion with Sakurai.

I mean, characters like these don't exactly get added based on good timing...

But it's possible that the one-off-NES-era types not being so much of a "surprise" anymore is going to make them less likely going forward. They have pretty consistently valued this era highly, though, so they might also continue with it.

If another NES one-off type gets added, I would see Excitebiker as the most glaring omission due to high sales, overall notoriety, and close association with Miyamoto and the making of Super Mario Bros. A good exercise is to sift through Wikipedia's list of best-selling NES games, crossing out all third parties and games/series already repped by PCs in Smash, and then seeing what's left (with the reminder that sales charts should be taken with a grain of salt and aren't the only thing to consider of course).

And yes, I am aware that Excitebike is not technically a one-off but in terms of its chances for Smash it is probably best considered primarily as such.

 

[Perkilator]

there is something i am curious about i remember sakurai stated he didnt Takamaru and Ayumi due to them being japanese exclusive characters but now that its no longer the case why they havent been added yet?

On that note; I was thinking that if Ayumi was in Melee, she’d be a semi-clone using Peach and Zelda’s moves.