Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

Speaking of Bowser Jr., something that has always bugged me was that people completely ignored his inclusion when discussing villains in Smash 4.

So many people said Smash 4 didn't include any villains, but Jr. Was right there. Why doesn't he count? He's more recognizable than any villain not named Bowser at this point. The only one that comes close is Ganondorf.

I would argue that Jessie, James, and Meowth from the Pokémon anime are more recognizable than either Bowser Jr. or Ganondorf. True they might have questionable eligibility due to originating from an anime but they still belong to a (partially?) Nintendo owned IP. I am curious how Sephiroth stacks up to Ganondorf in terms of general recognizability though.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

In general I think it stemmed from people wanting "final boss"-type villains more so than "mini-boss"-type villains.

Funnily enough, Jr. has been involved with a final boss fight more than Ridley and Wolf.

 

[Gengar84]

Funnily enough, Jr. has been involved with a final boss fight more than Ridley and Wolf.

I think it’s more likely that many would like to see the more recognizable villain, whether they were actually the final boss or not. For example, I think you’d see higher support for Kuja over Necron, Magus over Lavos, and Seymour or Jecht over Yu Yevon. I’d personally rather see Medusa and Jenna Anderson over Hades and

Spoiler

Yoseph

but that is probably more contested.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Tbf regarding Black Knight, I think pre-launch there was a little hope that some echoes could be more similar to Melee clones. Especially after Dark Samus and Chrom got revealed and had some clear animation differences.

Of course in hindsight the fact that Pichu, Young Link and Doc weren't listed as echoes should have made that abundantly clear that that wasn't the case but hey, we were young and naive.

 

[fogbadge]

I think it’s more likely that many would like to see the more recognizable villain, whether they were actually the final boss or not. For example, I think you’d see higher support for Kuja over Necron, Magus over Lavos, and Seymour or Jecht over Yu Yevon. I’d personally rather see Medusa and Jenna Anderson over Hades and

Spoiler

Yoseph

but that is probably more contested.

would you see any support for yu yevon?

 

[Gengar84]

Tbf regarding Black Knight, I think pre-launch there was a little hope that some echoes could be more similar to Melee clones. Especially after Dark Samus and Chrom got revealed and had some clear animation differences.

Of course in hindsight the fact that Pichu, Young Link and Doc weren't listed as echoes should have made that abundantly clear that that wasn't the case but hey, we were young and naive.

Is Chrom technically classified as a Roy echo? If so, that at least shows they can have different specials and final smashes.

would you see any support for yu yevon?

I highly doubt it but maybe he has a couple supporters out there. You could probably make a decent moveset for him summoning the dark aeons but at that point, why not just add Yuna instead?

 

[Oracle Link]

AC should get Tom nook definitly considering hes been the most iconic npc prior too Isabelle!
Anyways here are 3 mario movesets:

I wanted to keep all game specific Attacks out of marios Moveset!
The MKS Final smashes are based on the mario bros movie finale i dont know i just thought that fit into smash!
And Searching for Bubble or Elephant peach gave... Interesting results!
The Goal with luigi was to de sakuraism him aka make him less weird!
I also will de sakuraiism Bowser at some point!

 

[Dinoman96]

Speaking of Bowser Jr., something that has always bugged me was that people completely ignored his inclusion when discussing villains in Smash 4.

So many people said Smash 4 didn't include any villains, but Jr. Was right there. Why doesn't he count? He's more recognizable than any villain not named Bowser at this point. The only one that comes close is Ganondorf.

The answer is that he doesn't count because he wasn't Ridley or K. Rool lol

 

[ZephyrZ]

Is Chrom technically classified as a Roy echo? If so, that at least shows they can have different specials and final smashes.

Yep. Although a BK isn't gonna work just by swapping a could moves.

A lot of people thought that Dark Samus's different animations meant she'd have different movement properties and possibly even weight, and a blog post describing her as "floatier" fed into that. It led to some people speculating that echoes could have bigger changes then we'd seen with Dark Pit / Lucina and I think that's when speculation for characters like Shadow and Black Knight really took off.

But then the game launched and Dark Samus's stats were exactly the same. And only Ken got to be a truly unique echo because he's Ken and breaks the rules.

Actually on a note about Dark Samus: A lot of fans are very vocal about not liking her implemantion and say it betrays her original portrayal. And I've never seen anyone really praise her implementation, just defend it. Which is probably another reason why "it'd betray the character!" didn't really shut down speculation surrounding Shadow, Dixie, Isabelle, Burger King ect.

 

[Louie G.]

The Goal with luigi was to de sakuraism him aka make him less weird!

I absolutely adore Luigi as is, personally. You could argue that he's flanderized, but I don't think every character in Smash needs to be a 1:1 accurate portrayal of themselves either if it means asserting a more compelling and dynamic presence. Luigi is pretty weird in Smash, but who else moves or plays like Luigi?

Green Missile makes no sense, but that's why it's fun! The wacky properties of his Up B or Down Taunt, or his silly dash attack, that stuff may build a portrayal of Luigi that feels off kilter but it makes for one hell of a fun fighting game character. I think when you've got characters as synonymous as the Mario cast Smash should be allowed some of that creative freedom. That's how I personally feel at least, and I've been a Luigi fan for a long time. It's in the name!

I wouldn't mind giving the Poltergust a bit more play as his Down B, but otherwise I think I'm happy with what he's got. I think faithfulness is important but it's not the be all end all if it comes at the expense of what makes a character pop. At the end of the day it's still Luigi to me, and I think it's an inspired choice to build his moveset more from who he is as a character than simply what he can do in the games. It's true to the identity that he's built up in Luigi's Mansion and the Mario RPGs to at least some degree - the Mario & Luigi games are essentially why I love Luigi so much to begin with, and it feels like I'm playing as that guy.

 

[Gengar84]

I think I’m probably just a lot more accepting of echoes and alts in general compared to most people because I’ve been playing modded Smash since Brawl. I’m totally used to playing characters that don’t perfectly fit the base. As long as the general feel of the character is the same, then I’m happy. It does get a little harder with fighting game characters that have huge, expansive movesets but I’m happy to use those too.

 

[fogbadge]

I think I’m probably just a lot more accepting of echoes and alts in general compared to most people because I’ve been playing modded Smash since Brawl. I’m totally used to playing characters that don’t perfectly fit the base. As long as the general feel of the character is the same, then I’m happy. It does get a little harder with fighting game characters that have huge, expansive movesets but I’m happy to use those too.

im fine with echoes too I just find the ones we have underwhelming

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Shadow was right there and they didnt make him an echo.

 

[Gengar84]

im fine with echoes too I just find the ones we have underwhelming

I feel like they could have gone a lot farther with how many echoes we got. I originally assumed the point of their reclassification was that we were going to see a lot of them. I was a bit disappointed with how few we ended up with. Of course, I’d much rather have more unique characters so it depends on exactly how much time and resources are saved in making echoes.

 

[fogbadge]

I feel like they could have gone a lot farther with how many echoes we got. I originally assumed the point of their reclassification was that we were going to see a lot of them. I was a bit disappointed with how few we ended up with. Of course, I’d much rather have more unique characters so it depends on exactly how much time and resources are saved in making echoes.

yeah it’s hard to say but we know ultimate’s development wasn’t as easy as those that came before

 

[Noipoi]

Shadow was right there and they didnt make him an echo.

I'll never understand it

 

[SPEN18]

Right. Because, again, the alternative was not getting them at all. Dark Samus, Dark Pit, Daisy, Richter, etc. were never going to get unique movesets. And I prefer, say, Dark Samus being in the game and playing like Samus, to Dark Samus not being playable at all.

But there is a point where that mentality gets taken way too far. I mean, in the extreme you'd be saying the roster should just be like a handful of Mii-fighter-esque, prototypical movesets and every character is just a detailed costume/skin over one of them. We could have tons of characters that way. But I don't think it would be good, nor is that capturing what makes Smash special and appealing in the first place.

 

[Sucumbio]

Maybe 3rd party Echoes are harder to do bc the owners don't want it? It's hard to tell if Nintendo or Sega would be the deciding factor (or both). Maybe Sega just didn't think a Shadow echo of Sonic would be correct?

 

[Schnee117]

Shadow was right there and they didnt make him an echo.

Shadow should be a semi-clone at bare minimum.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Meanwhile literally every actual Black Knight fan I know when people bafflingly suggest that he can be an Ike echo.

Then you don't know any actual Black Knight fans.

Anyone that would rather a character not be playable at all than be playable in a way that's less than totally accurate is not a real fan of that character.

A real fan would be exited that their character is playable and that they're being recognized as being roster-worthy. And would then proceed to hope and request that they get expanded into a more unique/accurate character in future games.


For example, Ganondorf started out as a pretty direct and inexplicable Captain Falcon echo in Melee, and has slowly been made more unique/accurate to Ganondorf over time. And Ganondorf fans want him to get more unique/accurate still. But no Ganondorf fan is like "Ganondorf shouldn't even have been IN these last 4 games if he had to be a Falcon clone!"

No Ganondorf fan would rather have no Ganondorf over Falcondorf.


"Accurate or nothing!" is just bluster. It's just trying to give the devs an ultimatum to strongarm them into giving them "accurate". But they wouldn't ACTUALLY rather have "nothing". It's a bluff.

I mean, in the extreme you'd be saying the roster should just be like a handful of Mii-fighter-esque, prototypical movesets and every character is just a detailed costume/skin over one of them. We could have tons of characters that way.

I mean...we do. That's what character-specific Mii costumes ARE. The Echo is the mid-point between the Mii costume and the unique Fighter.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'm just gonna stick with my they-didn't-wanna-make-too-many-SSBU-Amiibo theory.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Of course in hindsight the fact that Pichu, Young Link and Doc weren't listed as echoes should have made that abundantly clear that that wasn't the case but hey, we were young and naive.

Those characters absolutely SHOULD have been classified as Echoes. The current requirements are too narrow.

im fine with echoes too I just find the ones we have underwhelming

I feel like Ken is the current gold standard for Echoes. Still clearly a clone, but different enough to be interesting and show off the differences between him and Ryu.

 

[fogbadge]

Those characters absolutely SHOULD have been classified as Echoes. The current requirements are too narrow.

I feel like Ken is the current gold standard for Echoes. Still clearly a clone, but different enough to be interesting and show off the differences between him and Ryu.

he’s still underwhelming

 

[Oracle Link]

im fine with echoes too I just find the ones we have underwhelming

IMPA IMPA IMPA!

 

[Kirbeh]

he’s still underwhelming

As an echo or in general?

If the former, I'd have to disagree as he's one of the better realized echo fighters.

If the latter I also still disagree but that's just because I'm a Street Fighter fan.

 

[fogbadge]

As an echo or in general?

If the former, I'd have to disagree as he's one of the better realized echo fighters.

If the latter I also still disagree but that's just because I'm a Street Fighter fan.

the latter, i'm one of those people who try not to get hung up on movesets. i'm not against more street fighter characters i just felt the went with someone a tad bland although i hear there's a fridge now

 

[Hadokeyblade]

the latter, i'm one of those people who try not to get hung up on movesets. i'm not against more street fighter characters i just felt the went with someone a tad bland although i hear there's a fridge now

You would have prefered any of Ryu's other clone characters, im guessing?

 

[fogbadge]

You would have prefered any of Ryu's other clone characters, im guessing?

sometimes you never know how you’re going to react to a character until they’re unveiled

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Tbf regarding Black Knight, I think pre-launch there was a little hope that some echoes could be more similar to Melee clones. Especially after Dark Samus and Chrom got revealed and had some clear animation differences.

Of course in hindsight the fact that Pichu, Young Link and Doc weren't listed as echoes should have made that abundantly clear that that wasn't the case but hey, we were young and naive.

Iirc when they announced Daisy they said that she would play differently than Peach, so people where expecting more differences than just the turnip damage, which they even retcon in a update. Which is why early in Smash ult lifecycle people were expcting more echoes like Black Shadow or Dixie kong who would had more differences than the echo we got aside from Ken.

 

[Sucumbio]

Can you imagine the conversation at Nintendo?

Hey we want echos. Ok well there's Ryu and Ken. No, we don't want that!

 

[PeridotGX]

curious are there character can be an echo of character from different series or is that against the rule of echo fighter?
for example urban champion as an echo of little mac

I think Mettaton EX could work as a ZSS echo. I know it sounds goofy, but there's really nothing that she does that would be out of character for Mettaton, and he would absolutely never be added as a unique character so it's his only shot

 

[SPEN18]

Then you don't know any actual Black Knight fans.

Anyone that would rather a character not be playable at all than be playable in a way that's less than totally accurate is not a real fan of that character.

A real fan would be exited that their character is playable and that they're being recognized as being roster-worthy. And would then proceed to hope and request that they get expanded into a more unique/accurate character in future games.


For example, Ganondorf started out as a pretty direct and inexplicable Captain Falcon echo in Melee, and has slowly been made more unique/accurate to Ganondorf over time. And Ganondorf fans want him to get more unique/accurate still. But no Ganondorf fan is like "Ganondorf shouldn't even have been IN these last 4 games if he had to be a Falcon clone!"

No Ganondorf fan would rather have no Ganondorf over Falcondorf.


"Accurate or nothing!" is just bluster. It's just trying to give the devs an ultimatum to strongarm them into giving them "accurate". But they wouldn't ACTUALLY rather have "nothing". It's a bluff.

I mean...we do. That's what character-specific Mii costumes ARE. The Echo is the mid-point between the Mii costume and the unique Fighter.

No need to make things accusatory in nature. I don't think you have the grounds to say they're "not real fans" even though you may disagree with their standards for acceptable representation of a character.

As for differentiating them more over time, I think in certain limited cases there can be some merit to that strategy, though there are many scenarios in which it simply doesn't work because the characters aren't similar enough to be cloned from each other to begin with. Plus you have to be careful about any kind of "good for now, fix it later" way of thinking, and I don't think Sakurai/Nintendo like to operate that way anyway. And on the other hand, given how slow the process has been with characters like Ganondorf, I can also totally understand people being concerned about their character becoming a clone and then being left that way indefinitely.

Of course no one is going to say Ganondorf shouldn't have been in at all (at the very least for Brawl and beyond; I have heard the argument for leaving him out of Melee, however) because he's Ganondorf, one of the top three most important Zelda characters. But I also don't think you can, given that importance, argue that being a Falcon clone was his only way onto the rosters of Brawl or 4, which is the fallacy in this example. The alternative to clone Ganondorf isn't zero Ganon/Ganondorf at all, because Ganon/Ganondorf is important enough that he'd be on the roster in some form whether or not he was deemed cloneable (again, at least for Brawl and beyond). So I don't think Ganondorf is the right example to make your point.

I also don't think this stuff is any kind of "bluff" or "strongarming the devs" or anything like that; I think it's mostly just good-intending people wanting the best for their character, and potentially disagreeing on what that looks like.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I don't think you have the grounds to say they're "not real fans" even though you may disagree with their standards for acceptable representation of a character.

And yet, I still will.

Either they aren't actually Black Knight fans, or they're lying about being preferring he never be playable.

So I don't think Ganondorf is the right example to make your point.

It's the most apt comparison we have. As he's the clone character that's been changed the most throughout the series. And demonstrates that being an echo is a stepping stone, not an end point.

 

[dream1ng]

I think Ganondorf is a pretty terrible example because I gladly would've not received him in Melee knowing that holding out likely would've made him completely original. Sure he's been differentiated, but it's been a very long process and he's still hardly original, and is still a pretty poor interpretation of the character.

Ganondorf is choosing one of the limited number of clones that would've eventually been added anyway. Most probably aren't like that.

I think a better example is someone like Dark Samus, who was decently popular and probably one of the more questionable fits to be basically a direct clone, given there is a lot that differentiates the two characters, and Samus' moveset isn't the best interpretation of the character, but being a clone is basically the only way she'd get in at all. So is this questionable fit better, or is nothing better?

But even then, on the scale of "poor fit", hers is still "good enough" to actually happen. Some are so wild and dumb that they obviously would never actually happen. What about Waluigi over Wario or Luigi? Doom Slayer over Master Chief (or vice versa)? And still, those are characters that you can turn down, hoping they'll eventually just get in normally.

Conversely, as it stands now, it's really unlikely we get Goroh. If we get a truly new full F-Zero we'll see, but currently it's not happening. And I've seen Goroh suggested as a Falcon clone, even though him using a katana makes that... not make much sense. Would you rather see him as a Falcon clone, or would you pass, knowing he'll likely stay as nothing, because it's a bad fit? And if you go nah, does that inherently make you not a Goroh/F-Zero fan?

I think ultimately what you'd take is subjective, there isn't a "right" opinion. But I will say qualifying something as "no real fan would want x" is one of the absolute clearest examples of the no true scotsman fallacy I've ever actually seen in the wild.

 

[Arcanir]

Then you don't know any actual Black Knight fans.

Anyone that would rather a character not be playable at all than be playable in a way that's less than totally accurate is not a real fan of that character.

A real fan would be exited that their character is playable and that they're being recognized as being roster-worthy. And would then proceed to hope and request that they get expanded into a more unique/accurate character in future games.


For example, Ganondorf started out as a pretty direct and inexplicable Captain Falcon echo in Melee, and has slowly been made more unique/accurate to Ganondorf over time. And Ganondorf fans want him to get more unique/accurate still. But no Ganondorf fan is like "Ganondorf shouldn't even have been IN these last 4 games if he had to be a Falcon clone!"

No Ganondorf fan would rather have no Ganondorf over Falcondorf.


"Accurate or nothing!" is just bluster. It's just trying to give the devs an ultimatum to strongarm them into giving them "accurate". But they wouldn't ACTUALLY rather have "nothing". It's a bluff.

So basically... 'If you don't think the way I do, you're not a real fan'.

That is terrible logic, not everyone is going to accept the lesser version of their favorite character being playable just to have them playable. People still complain about Ganondorf still carrying much of Captain Falcon's DNA even with the changes he has gotten, I still see many Dark Samus fans upset that she lost many of her unique abilities from being an AT, not even going by the Prime games themselves, and so on and so forth. Saying they don't count because 'well their character is playable' is ignoring what they feel and what they want out of their character, they are no more or less fans of the character just because they don't want to make concessions for them.

Also, your post ignores the major problem with Black Knight that Opossum brought up: Black Knight being an Echo would be a complete mess of a character. We wouldn't be talking Dark Samus levels of concessions, we'd be talking an entire character having to give up much of their identity to even work as many of the moves Ike has don't fit on Black Knight whether animation-wise or character-wise, and since we're not talking semi-clone levels of changes you're basically asking for a frankenstein mess of a character who clips with every move he does and lacks any of the presence he has in the FE games. I'm not sure many fans would be happy with their character being a mess to look at or play with just to check off 'well, at least they're in the game'.

Finally, getting to the point of 'well they can evolve with future games', there's a few problems with that mindset as well. Firstly, you're asking for someone to accept a poor man's version of their favorite character in the hopes it gets better in a future game, one that probably wouldn't happen for years considering Smash's release schedule. Secondly, there's no guarantee that the characters will change substantially in the first place. Young Link didn't change much between Melee and Ultimate, with the vast majority of his changes functionally being updates for the difference in engines, and similarly Lucina and Dark Pit didn't differentiate much between Smash 4 and Ultimate. You could basically be stuck with that version of the character permanently, with no guarantee that the following games would bother to go back and change them. Finally, this is assuming that they remain in the series after that point, lets not pretend that we know every character is going to return in every subsequent game, even Sakurai is unsure of that, so the concession of 'well, they'll change in the next game' is not a certainty and they could potentially be left with a version of a character that they don't like in that one game.

In the end, you're trying to push that your idea is the only way to go about this situation when there's a number of problems that can easily deter someone from not accepting it. Not everyone is fine with their character not being a better interpretation of themselves, especially when the interpretation you're asking for is likely to be extremely flawed in execution, and they could be stuck with that version due to the uncertain future that Smash games have. Not everyone has to accept that direction nor should they just to be considered 'real fans'.

 

[SPEN18]

And yet, I still will.

Either they aren't actually Black Knight fans, or they're lying about being preferring he never be playable.

It's the most apt comparison we have. As he's the clone character that's been changed the most throughout the series. And demonstrates that being an echo is a stepping stone, not an end point.

What if they said they'd rather have BK not playable at all than have him as a Marth Echo? A Mario Echo? It sounds ridiculous but everyone has a line when it comes to how far they're willing to stretch it to get their character.

There's not really any evidence that being an Echo is actually considered a stepping stone to full uniqueness by the devs. Quasi-uniqueness, fine, but not full-on uniqueness. In fact it's kind of telling if you're saying that Ganondorf's the one who's changed the most. Regardless, each implementation of each character still has to make sense in every game they're in; it's not like Smash 6 is gonna be like an indev version of Smash 7.

 

[dream1ng]

Did you know that if you'd rather get nothing over Master Chief w/ an energy sword as a Marth clone, you're not really a Halo fan?

I didn't know that, but now that I do I'll go return my Master Chief statue.

But hey, at least Doom Slayer can now be a clone of Chief if he bring the Crucible and zero guns. I mean I'd rather that not happen either, but I'm not a real Doom fan. I only bought Eternal twice and the original god knows how many times.

 

[Gengar84]

I think there are a lot of good arguments on both sides of the issue and neither side is really right or wrong for preferring what they do. I think it all comes down to what you value in a Smash character. If you love the idea of a character for having a ton of moveset potential, I agree that it would be kind of a letdown to see them get in as an echo. That’s how I’d feel about Dixie and Impa. I would personally take them over nothing but I totally understand why others might not want to. Others just want to be able to play as their favorite characters and aren’t as particular when it comes to having an accurate moveset as long as they still got to play as them in some way. I think it’s a mistake to call out either side as being “fake fans” since everyone has their own personal preferences in what they care most about a character, particularly in regards to their implementation in Smash.

 

[Laniv]

...You know who would make a great Bowser Jr. semiclone? Lakitu

 

[Troykv]

So basically... 'If you don't think the way I do, you're not a real fan'.

That is terrible logic, not everyone is going to accept the lesser version of their favorite character being playable just to have them playable. People still complain about Ganondorf still carrying much of Captain Falcon's DNA even with the changes he has gotten, I still see many Dark Samus fans upset that she lost many of her unique abilities from being an AT, not even going by the Prime games themselves, and so on and so forth. Saying they don't count because 'well their character is playable' is ignoring what they feel and what they want out of their character, they are no more or less fans of the character just because they don't want to make concessions for them.

Also, your post ignores the major problem with Black Knight that Opossum brought up: Black Knight being an Echo would be a complete mess of a character. We wouldn't be talking Dark Samus levels of concessions, we'd be talking an entire character having to give up much of their identity to even work as many of the moves Ike has don't fit on Black Knight whether animation-wise or character-wise, and since we're not talking semi-clone levels of changes you're basically asking for a frankenstein mess of a character who clips with every move he does and lacks any of the presence he has in the FE games. I'm not sure many fans would be happy with their character being a mess to look at or play with just to check off 'well, at least they're in the game'.

Finally, getting to the point of 'well they can evolve with future games', there's a few problems with that mindset as well. Firstly, you're asking for someone to accept a poor man's version of their favorite character in the hopes it gets better in a future game, one that probably wouldn't happen for years considering Smash's release schedule. Secondly, there's no guarantee that the characters will change substantially in the first place. Young Link didn't change much between Melee and Ultimate, with the vast majority of his changes functionally being updates for the difference in engines, and similarly Lucina and Dark Pit didn't differentiate much between Smash 4 and Ultimate. You could basically be stuck with that version of the character permanently, with no guarantee that the following games would bother to go back and change them. Finally, this is assuming that they remain in the series after that point, lets not pretend that we know every character is going to return in every subsequent game, even Sakurai is unsure of that, so the concession of 'well, they'll change in the next game' is not a certainty and they could potentially be left with a version of a character that they don't like in that one game.

In the end, you're trying to push that your idea is the only way to go about this situation when there's a number of problems that can easily deter someone from not accepting it. Not everyone is fine with their character not being a better interpretation of themselves, especially when the interpretation you're asking for is likely to be extremely flawed in execution, and they could be stuck with that version due to the uncertain future that Smash games have. Not everyone has to accept that direction nor should they just to be considered 'real fans'.

Maybe Darth made that comment because Black Knight isn't iconic enough to appear in his own, unlike, well... Ganondorf..., so people, at least in theory, could be a lot more willing to accept compromises because their character isn't someone the Internet can will into existence like Ridley...

But I definitely agree with your argument, the level of compromises needed to make BK work that way could be ridiculous.