Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

Although it's unfeasible to do again due to all the licensing that would be required.

If it was feasible before, why wouldn't it be feasible now?

Like, your saying they can't do something...that they just finished doing. Only now they have even MORE money to do it.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I think every third-party character has a case for them coming back, so it's really hard to say which of them is likely to get cut. Keep in mind, some of these companies involved are Smash fans too and they no doubt love what the games have done for their own series.

I also wouldn't be surprised that negotiations Nintendo had with these companies would be much easier with them the next time around.

But I just can't help but feel that a Deluxe would be the best follow-up for now (unless they can bring everyone back for a sequel) because it's like there's nowhere to go but up. With the way the roster already is, Ultimate can last about 4 or maybe 5 years after its completed. A Deluxe with an additional group of characters would add even more years to it.

 

[Louie G.]

But I just can't help but feel that a Deluxe would be the best follow-up for now because it's like there's nowhere to go but up. With the way the roster already is, Ultimate can last about 5 years after its completed. A Deluxe with an additional group of characters would add even more years to it.

Deluxe is the "best" move but I don't think it's practical at all. I doubt they are getting Sora on that base roster, and if you can't include everyone then it defeats the whole point. I think it requires certain companies to be more generous than they are probably likely to be, unless you wanna stack on another SE character as future DLC and so forth. But I still see Disney being a difficult thing to work around.

At that point, assuming the next console is cross compatible, just do another DLC pass for the original game.

 

[fogbadge]

would this be a bad time to steer the conversation to mario wonder?

 

[Wonder Smash]

Deluxe is the "best" move but I don't think it's practical at all. I doubt they are getting Sora on that base roster, and if you can't include everyone then it defeats the whole point. I think it requires certain companies to be more generous than they are probably likely to be, unless you wanna stack on another SE character as future DLC and so forth. But I still see Disney being a difficult thing to work around.

At that point, assuming the next console is cross compatible, just do another DLC pass for the original game.

That assuming that Disney was as hard to work with as people think. From the sounds of it, however, that doesn't seem to be the case. But that also goes back to what I said about negotiations the second time possibly being easier than the first.

would this be a bad time to steer the conversation to mario wonder?

I haven't played that game yet but I really want to.

 

[SPEN18]

If it was feasible before, why wouldn't it be feasible now?

Like, your saying they can't do something...that they just finished doing. Only now they have even MORE money to do it.

Because the Switch didn't bomb like the Wii U did, the next console isn't going to have like 2012-level power, and they went and added a dozen more characters even after they already said it wouldn't happen again

Not to mention needing to make space for an actually robust crop of new content and any gameplay updates they may have in mind

They may have made a lot of money on Ult and the Switch era in general, but it still only makes sense to invest as much budget as is prudent for selling the game at a standard price point

Don't mean to be harsh about it but it's been worth repeating

 

[fogbadge]

I haven't played that game yet but I really want to.

well I’d say it lives up to the name

 

[Sucumbio]

I was hesitant to buy SMB Wonder due to not really liking NSMBW

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Played Wonder through most of the Petal Isles and the first three worlds, and its been fun. There's been some talk that its too easy, but if you don't use any badges, it provides a reasonable challenge and quite frankly I'd prefer Donkey Kong Country largely be the outlet for difficult platformer stages anyway.

Honestly its amazing how much some creative flourish can really liven up an old series; the NSMB games always had excellent level design with blah everything else. so actually having the former paired with wacky enemies and gimmicks is a great change of pace.

I look forward to the weird effects the Wonder Seed will have in the SMBW stage that will hopefully be in the next Smash.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I feel like people underestimate Dragon quest when the topic of the Square reps comes up, the licensing for this series always came across as easier to get than the one for Final fantasy.

would this be a bad time to steer the conversation to mario wonder?

A Wonder stage would be cool as long as the New super mario stages get cut in exchange.

 

[fogbadge]

I know a lot of people hate them but I’d quite like it if the wonder stage had the talking flowers with certain things to say to different characters

 

[DarthEnderX]

Because the Switch didn't bomb like the Wii U did, the next console isn't going to have like 2012-level power, and they went and added a dozen more characters even after they already said it wouldn't happen again

But, again, they already DID it. At a time when they were just coming off one of their least successful consoles ever.

Now, after one of their most successful consoles ever, they suddenly don't have the resources to do something...that they've already done before?

I'm sorry, but that logic just doesn't track.

Don't mean to be harsh about it but it's been worth repeating

It's really not. Because it makes NO sense.

skateboarder performs triple flip
Audience: "It's too bad triple flips are impossible."

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I know a lot of people hate them but I’d quite like it if the wonder stage had the talking flowers with certain things to say to different characters

People hate the talking flowers?

Why?

 

[DarthEnderX]

would this be a bad time to steer the conversation to mario wonder?

My only complaint with it so far:
Bowser Jr. being the Boss of every World.

 

[fogbadge]

People hate the talking flowers?

Why?

could not tell you

 

[Noipoi]

I know a lot of people hate them but I’d quite like it if the wonder stage had the talking flowers with certain things to say to different characters

We're on the same wavelength, you and I

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I feel like people underestimate Dragon quest when the topic of the Square reps comes up, the licensing for this series always came across as easier to get than the one for Final fantasy.

And also I don't want to sound like I'm celebrating people's death, but with Suigiyama's passing I think that we could have much more DQ music and content overall.

 

[Arcanir]

No, it's 'If your attitude is detrimental to a character, you're not a real fan of that character'.

And 'I'd rather they get nothing' is a detrimental attitude.

It's not detrimental to want something more out of your character, especially when the alternative you're trying to push (like the Ike Black Knight Echo) would be less than the bare minimum for the character. I doubt many fans would want their favorite character to be a cobbled together mess just to be playable.

would this be a bad time to steer the conversation to mario wonder?

As long as we avoid late game spoilers it should be fair game.

 

[SPEN18]

But, again, they already DID it. At a time when they were just coming off one of their least successful consoles ever.

Now, after one of their most successful consoles ever, they suddenly don't have the resources to do something...that they've already done before?

I'm sorry, but that logic just doesn't track.

The point is that they did it under basically the most optimal circumstances you could ask for, and even then they barely got it across the finish line. The circumstances are not likely to be so optimal next time around.

It's not a matter of how rich of a company Nintendo is. It's a matter of how much it's worth it relative to the necessary costs, and whether it's feasible under the necessary time constraints.

 

[RileyXY1]

The point is that they did it under basically the most optimal circumstances you could ask for, and even then they barely got it across the finish line. The circumstances are not likely to be so optimal next time around.

It's not a matter of how rich of a company Nintendo is. It's a matter of how much it's worth it relative to the necessary costs, and whether it's feasible under the necessary time constraints.

Also Smash Ultimate itself didn’t really have a lot of new content at launch because the focus went towards bringing back old content. On Day 1 there were only 11 new characters (six of which were clones) and only four new stages.

 

[Sid-cada]

It's really not. Because it makes NO sense.

skateboarder performs triple flip
Audience: "It's too bad triple flips are impossible."

To use your analogy, it's because your conflating doing a double flip, then a single flip, calling it a triple flip, then stating that a penta-flip is possible.

Remember that by the time Byleth was released, Sakurai probably didn't even know Sora was going to be in the game. The effort it took for each character was spread thinner than what was in base game. Also remember that many DLC characters also tend to be more crammed with effort, such as Steve requiring every stage to be reworked to get his mining to be "right," in a more extreme example.

Now, keep in mind that we're all at least expecting as many newcomers as there were in Ultimate base, unless you think the next is simply a port, which is something Sakurai definitely would not like or do.

And a much as you may like to believe that we live in a fantasy land where the next instalment has unlimited time, money, and manpower, by it's very nature as a product meant to make money, if they feel like they can get away with doing something with less, they will take it when compromises need to be made.

We don't know how powerful the next system will be, and how much can be ported over from Ultimate to the next (assuming they go that route.) With this many question marks, along with work that Sakurai said don't expect this to happen again, we have many reasons to doubt a full roster return.

 

[RodNutTakin]

Taking a quick look back at Ultimate's lineup.
Would somewhere around 12-15 cuts be reasonable in your eyes? (Not factoring echoes into this)

 

[CannonStreak]

Taking a quick look back at Ultimate's lineup.
Would somewhere around 12-15 cuts be reasonable in your eyes? (Not factoring echoes into this)

At least between 9-12 cuts sounds reasonable to me, even if it does seem like the minimal approach.

 

[Truth the Ceomasterz33]

Hello, I fellow members! I'm finally back and returning at Future/Next Smash Speculation! Since started as Fall/Autumn/Spring 2020. As Smash fans as well.

Will be returns to Smashboards! After post SSBU,Newcomer/DLC Speculation and despite being unseen long, absence long time and unware others. I sees Next Smash?! I what?! If could happened? I'd could be my dream/wants fighters is unknown/redacted.

I wish had be good! I never be trust with me! I never be absent! But i'll who loves with an Tuna!

- Sincerely Richard "Truth" Jakeson-Pine

 

[DarthEnderX]

especially when the alternative you're trying to push (like the Ike Black Knight Echo) would be less than the bare minimum for the character.

The bare minimum is nothing. A suboptimal echo is not less than nothing.

The point is that they did it under basically the most optimal circumstances you could ask for, and even then they barely got it across the finish line.

It WASN'T optimal! They did it during the Wii U's life-cycle. Nintendo's least successful, least influential point in DECADES.

And a much as you may like to believe that we live in a fantasy land where the next instalment has unlimited time, money, and manpower

It's not unlimited. But it MORE than they had for Ultimate. During which, and I can't stress this enough,

THEY

ALREADY

DID IT!

Arguing that something that was already done can't be done is the dumbest, non-starter argument ever! It's like arguing Bigfoot isn't real while standing next to Bigfoot.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Arguing that something that was already done can't be done is the dumbest, non-starter argument ever! It's like arguing Bigfoot isn't real while standing next to Bigfoot.

You mean Chunky Kong, right?

 

[CannonStreak]

You mean Chunky Kong, right?

I wonder how he's not dead at this point? (This is a reference to those Chunky dead memes, by the way)

 

[HyperSomari64]

I wonder how he's not dead at this point? (This is a reference to those Chunky dead memes, by the way)

Brentalfloss corrupted a generation on the internet (that, and not making Sonic with lyrics)

 

[CannonStreak]

Brentalfloss corrupted a generation on the internet (that, and not making Sonic with lyrics)

Wait, was he the one behind the Chunky dead meme?

 

[Wonder Smash]

Whatever cuts that could happen, I just hope it doesn't involve popular requested characters. While I would like for some way to make up for cut characters, I don't think there's anyway that could happen for the more popular characters. But I have a feeling Sonic and Mega Man are not going anywhere and hopefully, neither is Simon. Same thing for Banjo and Sora.

Of course, that's just third-party characters, Little Mac definitely shouldn't go anywhere either.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Wait, was he the one behind the Chunky dead meme?

Search "DK Rap 2018 ("Where Are They Now?")"

 

[CannonStreak]

Search "DK Rap 2018 ("Where Are They Now?")"

Oh, this should be interesting.

 

[SPEN18]

It WASN'T optimal! They did it during the Wii U's life-cycle. Nintendo's least successful, least influential point in DECADES.

Even during the Wii U era, it's not like Nintendo suffered to the point of impacting the amount of budget they were able to put into their games. Wii U games and the early Switch games which helped fuel the new console's success were standard budget for their time.

Arguing that something that was already done can't be done is the dumbest, non-starter argument ever!

The circumstances which allowed it to happen the first time have changed. So it may not be possible or probable even if it once was.

 

[Arcanir]

The bare minimum is nothing. A suboptimal echo is not less than nothing.

So if Ryu Hayabusa was brought over as a Greninja clone and lacked any of his canon abilities, would that be OK? It's not 'less than nothing' since the character is finally playable, it's just not going to be the character people actually want to play.

Fans ask for characters not just to have the character on the roster screen, they ask for characters because they want to play as them as they fight and are represented in a way befitting of their canon appearances. That's why Black Knight fans as for him, they want the knight clad in black armor that strikes fear in you as you play the Radiance games, not a barely functioning Ike clone that looks as bad as he plays. If you're asking for people to accept it because 'it's better than nothing', then I don't think you really understand why many fans requests characters, and if you're trying to say they need to or otherwise not be considered 'real fans', then you're trying to set an unfair standard to push your own personal mentality.

But that's my final two cents on this topic, this has gone on long enough so let's cut it off here.

 

[YeppersPeppers]

I dunno, I see people preferring a character not being included whatsoever versus a quick, slapped-together echo as simply having a preference for how the character is portrayed in media, whether it be due to caring a bit more about what the character is or what they represent as a whole. Being included in Smash is seen as a big deal, sure, but I've seen a few characters now handled lamely enough that I would absolutely be fine with them never having been included in the first place than seeing them continue to be presented as the way they are in one of the biggest IPs to ever hit the industry, and no hypothetical potential of fixing in the future can change my mind on that. I'm personally not going to point and be excited for a character I love being in Smash on that basis alone because I care more about these characters beyond just seeing their face on a screen.

 

[Sucumbio]

Well I suppose the question is why does Sakurai think Ultimate can't be topped roster size wise?

 

[Ivander]

Well I suppose the question is why does Sakurai think Ultimate can't be topped roster size wise?

Did he really say that? Or was he talking about more in regards to the characters picked? Because you could easily top the roster size with Nintendo characters(especially if AI in the future makes it easier to move characters over to the next instalment), but obviously, the majority of them would be nowhere near as exciting and hype inducing as some of the big 3rd Party choices, like Sora, Steve, Sephiroth, Banjo & Kazooie, etc.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The circumstances which allowed it to happen the first time have changed.

Yeah, for the BETTER. Nintendo is in an even better place now than they were in 2016.

Like, seriously, where does this belief that it's harder now even come from? Because it seems pulled out of thin air.

So if Ryu Hayabusa was brought over as a Greninja clone and lacked any of his canon abilities, would that be OK?

It'd be pretty lousy.

But would still be preferable to Hayabusa not being in Smash at all.

Well I suppose the question is why does Sakurai think Ultimate can't be topped roster size wise?

He probably doesn't. He's probably just trying to manage fan expectations in case they can't.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

"They can do it again" isn't the argument you think it is. Especially when Snake didn't come back in 4. Clearly they always cannot do it again every time. We know that for a fact.

It's always a bad argument. Circumstances change. This is an actual fact and why things change when making a new game. Development costs can change depending all kinds of context and circumstances. Everyone Is Here is very unlikely to happen again as is, as the circumstances that led up to it aren't able to be replicated, but moreso how much extreme licensing it'll cost. Our only realistic hope is the other characters being moved to DLC to get everyone back. And that's not the most likely outcome, but the chances are far higher than having 80+ characters in base. It's a lot more money than is expected for a base game budget. And even if somehow it could magically happen, there's a damn good chance we'll have very bareboned other content due to no real time to implement it yet. Sure, it'll (likely) be free DLC later, but it might not work well this time. What made things work well is they didn't plan DLC at all till heavily into the development period. All the DLC characters were a later concept, by Nintendo too(though only most of the choices. PP was the only outright Sakurai choice, respectively).

It's just completely different from other kinds of games. Which many aren't 3rd party guest-heavy to the point of being hard as hell to license. Honestly, Sora not being DLC alone, for a good example, would be extremely surprising. Sephiroth and Hero to a lesser degree. Either way, returning everyone is a colossal task in more than just workload. Though that said, a Deluxe version has even less chance since they'd have to pay the entire licensing fee all over again for an updated port. It's far more worth it in the end for them, especially for sales, to make an all new game to get more people interested. It's already going to cost 70 base for us, and then you have to factor in later DLC. With little new content due to being a port, the price is pretty extreme now. Sure, it sounds like a good deal... but you paid for nearly the whole thing anyway. Not all ports work that well, and let's keep in mind that a lot of ports also only work often because they're not based around 3rd party licensing fees. It's not a matter of Nintendo simply affording it, but getting an actual good return, which... isn't very strong when they'd be losing a lot of money trying to port it over. Not enough are guaranteed to be interested when DLC is going to make the costs worse(you didn't think the 3rd Party Mii Costumes were going to be in base, did you? It won't happen. Companies twice made sure of that. That's a guarantee).

 

[RodNutTakin]

Part of me feels like that the huge stage list in Ultimate is only beneficial from a development standpoint. Like 90% of the Smash series's total stage history was modernized for Ultimate, and I imagine that at the very least, copy and pasting stages from one game to the next would be easier than with characters. I feel like an aspect that is overlooked with Ultimate's development is that all of the stages they had to bring back and update from the first 3 games and SSB3DS probably contributed to a lot of the workload as well, especially when they had to go back and make them all work with Steve's mechanic (another aspect that I feel was intended for futureproofing.)
Also about this licensing thing. What would be the ramifications if they didn't do Ultimate DX but made the game a crossgen title that got new DLC with the next system? Would that even be possible to do? Would you see Nintendo even wanting to do something like that?