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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

TriggerX

Smash Ace
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Nov 5, 2018
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Personally I hope they aren’t cutting many characters. Unless it’s for licensing issues. Like despite them “having trouble” with certain companies like Square according to interviews, they managed not only bringing cloud back on board, but hero, Sephiroth , and Sora to boot.
My point is, many of these companies are probably ok to have their properties handled by Nintendo again.

My concern is Nintendo just being lazy. Like I’m all for a reboot, but a reboot in my eyes would be really overhauling a lot of the game mechanics and adding/changing something substantial. Can’t say I see smash changing significantly enough where porting characters from the previous game is a super time consuming thing.
 

DarthEnderX

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User was warned for this post
...you think it's... an unrelated story about skateboarding?

You think I just wanted to tell a nice little tale about a skateboarder that has no relation to the topic at hand?
No, I think you wanted to take my metaphor about a skateboarder doing a trick, and reshape it into this nonsense about being in a competition and doing an entire routine, to try and invent a narrative that fits your argument instead.

It's like if you took my bigfoot metaphor from earlier and then went off on some tangent about evolutionary missing links to try and explain it away.

Right, your point trying to be made was Smash won't experiment in new directions because Nintendo's most successful series, such as MK and Pokemon, don't (y'know, ignoring Mario and Zelda). But, Mario Kart and Pokemon don't at all support your point of "if they've done it before they can do it again"
Hey numbnuts, those were two completely different discussions. Of course it doesn't support the latter. That's why I didn't USE it in the latter.

MK and Pokemon are good examples of Nintendo not being experimental. They are not good examples of Nintendo being completionist. Which is why I used them in the discussion about Nintendo not being experimental, and not in the discussion about Nintendo being completionist.

That's like if there was a discussion about "characters that wear green" and I talk about Luigi, and you come in and go "Luigi doesn't support your argument about characters that are dinosaurs!"
 
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smashkirby

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Smash Bros is still centered around Nintendo. It started off with just Nintendo characters and content, the roster is still filled with mostly Nintendo characters, and the references are still mostly Nintendo. So I still consider third-party characters as guest.

Overall, Smash Bros feels more like a celebration of Nintendo history but the third-party characters or series involved are a part of their history. In fact, Nintendo was involved with each of these series or companies at some point prior to Smash. Many series started on Nintendo consoles, became more famous on them, and in a few cases were even owned by Nintendo themselves.

And there's more third-party connection to their history that still hasn't been showcased yet.
On the back cover of Smash 4, it does refer to Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man as "guest fighters", while describing the rest of the characters as an "all-star lineup of Nintendo characters". Even on the back cover of Brawl, despite Snake and Sonic being shown, it still says "Nintendo Worlds Collide".

This is why I say, at its core, Smash is still a Nintendo crossover series.
And I hope it stays that way, personally.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Something to keep in mind is every Smash game does not have the same "strategy". They actually got rid of the Nintendo All-Star phrasing even somewhat during Melee. It always expanded beyond being a Nintendo crossover(with Ultimate actually being officially a "Gaming Crossover").

It'll always be partially a Nintendo crossover, but sometimes it's considered a different thing depending which game. They don't have the same tagline or description, and that's intentional. When you have a ton of 3rd party characters, calling it a Gaming Crossover makes a lot of sense. Of course, that doesn't mean Smash 6 will even be close to that route. Or it could be the core thing until a reboot happens(a complete roster and character overhaul, along with mechanics, really). If even then. There's no telling what direction it'll go.

Either way, it's become a gaming crossover... in certain games. Smash 4 also went that direction(DLC helped). Ultimate just make it clear that's the point of that game(besides Everyone Is Here).
 
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Nabbitfan730

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Sakurai is talking about future of Smash here again. Hint of licensing fee, but mostly, it comes down to development time.
This video couldn't have come out at a better time. Sakurai once emphasizing how much time, resources and licensing goes into each fighter and how EiH was literally a lighting in a bottle to have come true.


Either this a form of NDA or Sakurai is genuinely unsure is up in the air. My theory is that Sakurai is struggling to find a way to sell the next Smash. He probably knows that EiH can't happen so he, his team and Nintendo are finding to reduce workload whilst making it palpable for fans. Ultimate was a defining success so the struggle is real.
 

Gengar84

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I would really love if Smash just kept building onto Ultimate so we didn’t have to lose any content we currently have but I understand that might not be entirely realistic.

If we are going to have to drastically cut down the roster size, I personally think turning Smash into a “Nintendo vs. company” that switches up which third party they focus on from game to game would be a good way to go. That way, half the roster could be completely fresh each game while not adding too many characters and saving some development time. I feel like a roster of around 50 characters could be reasonable with 25 coming from Nintendo and 25 from the other company. Nintendo’s side of the roster could change around a bit from game to game as well but we’d need to keep the most iconic characters in each game. The third party company doesn’t even necessarily have to be a video game company either, we could see something like Nintendo vs. Shonen Jump or Nintendo vs. Marvel as well. I think focusing on just one third party partner per game should drastically cut back on licensing issues while making each game feel fresh.
 
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DarthEnderX

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Sakurai once emphasizing how much time, resources and licensing goes into each fighter and how EiH was literally a lighting in a bottle to have come true.
Actually, he lays it out pretty clearly. The main reason he was able to accomplish EiH in the first place is because Ultimate used most of the same devs and system architecture as Smash 4.

So if the Super Switch continues to use a similar architecture, the first step to repeating EiH would be getting Namco Bandai to develop it again.
 

JustPlainDan

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I can legit see freddy getting into smash now
I can see Freddy and the others being added as Mii Costumes, which I think would be appropriate that series
 

Garteam

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Actually, he lays it out pretty clearly. The main reason he was able to accomplish EiH in the first place is because Ultimate used most of the same devs and system architecture as Smash 4.

So if the Super Switch continues to use a similar architecture, the first step to repeating EiH would be getting Namco Bandai to develop it again.
Even if Namco Bandai does develop the next Smash and the next Smash is built directly off of Ultimate, there are still about 30 more veterans that would need to be developed relative to the workload for Ultimate.
 

Stratos

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If it is to make a game with Nintendo against another company that is not of video games I would rather not be related to the Super Smash Bros. series because I had written again that the beauty and celebrity of the Super Smash Bros. series is that it only accepts video game characters, because if in a game in the Super Smash Bros. series characters that are not from video games would lose its beauty and celebrity the Super Smash Bros..
 
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PeridotGX

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JustPlainDan

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But for obvious reasons, I feel like if a horror game series is to get a playable character on the roster, Resident Evil should be at the front of the line. I have my preference as to who specifically it should be, but Capcom just HAD to make three viable options.
 
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fogbadge

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But for obvious reasons, I feel like if a horror game series is to get a playable character on the roster, Resident Evil should be at the front of the line. I have my preference as to who specifically it should be, but Capcom just HAD to make three 3 viable options.
so sakurai could ignore them and go with someone else entirely
 

Gengar84

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If it is to make a game with Nintendo against another company that is not of video games I would rather not be related to the Super Smash Bros. series because I had written again that the beauty and celebrity of the Super Smash Bros. series is that it only accepts video game characters, because if in a game in the Super Smash Bros. series characters that are not from video games would lose its beauty and celebrity the Super Smash Bros..
Yeah, that’s reasonable. I think it depends on what you value about Smash as a property. If you like the thought of Smash as a celebration of gaming in general, then I totally understand not wanting any characters from outside gaming. If you see it as primarily a crossover of Nintendo characters with outside guests, then I think it’s less of an issue. I feel like there are good arguments on both sides. Personally, I’m less picky about that particular limitation and I’m happy to just be able to play Smash with cool characters I like. As long as they keep the Nintendo focus primarily, I don’t think that goes against the original soul of the series.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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As I noted before, Smash has gone in more directions than just Nintendo All-Stars(which as noted, even was shaky as soon as Melee. This is also partially when he noted the potential for a non-gaming character alone at that time that would be interesting). Smash 4 was the first one to hard designate it's for gaming characters only(and that was for DLC Ballot rules), and Brawl somewhat implied it with the 3rd party guidelines. Ultimate continues the Smash 4 philosphy.

It's not "always" been a thing at the end of the day, so it's a direction Smash absolutely could go in, or as noted, have different kinds of variable games that aren't straight sequels. Even if it's still the same core game and not an actual spin-off, they could have different versions for different purposes. One being about company battles(which means not everything is about gaming) is one direction. Continuing with mostly the same thing as Ultimate, just less characters is another. And a hard reboot is yet another. And there's countless other directions they could take it.

Ultimately(kek), the one thing that's clear is the idea of a port or returning everyone is not very likely at all with what he's said. He's made it pretty clear how difficult it is. Both, no matter how you go about it, is a huge development and money sink. And as pointed out by another user, they are going to focus more on bringing in new stuff this time around(as Ultimate is best to be thought of as a once in a lifetime situation). We also don't know what's going on with the Switch successor, and if it is backwards compatible, a port is a massive waste of time and money since you already pretty much have the full game. They would absolutely concentrate on a new game by that point. If it's not, then it has a slight chance of happening.

Though as the assets are just plain harder to work with than something like Mario Kart(and we know Pokemon clearly couldn't pull it off, heh), it's just a lot harder to keep trying to port it over. Code is old. It gets older as time goes on. Most likely at a point some stuff will require all new work(much like Mewtwo did in 4). Having Namco-Bandai there doesn't mean anything at the end of the day either. They're just extra help. They do not fix the major workload required even for a port. Reusing assets is not "easy". It's easier than new ones. It actually still requires a lot of work and time. It's not a "click this button and done" scenario. Development has never worked that way and never honestly will. Even asset reuse won't automatically work right away. A lot of coding is super easy to break, which means adding more stuff in can cause issues, regardless of whether it's "new" or not. There's just a lot to do.

Even when they ported over Brawl's assets to Smash 4, it's notable how a lot of stuff actually didn't work on the 3DS(and the Ice Climbers may not have even worked on the Wii U's 8-Player Smash. They even had issues with specials details like Wii Fit Trainer's fingers alone. That much stuff onscreen is unclear if it could've worked out). That said, it's not like they'd have been cut for being unusable in a single mode anyway, but being unusable in 3DS is different as both rosters were intentionally the same. It also cut Pokemon Trainer(with a returning vet of Charizard only) and forced other transformation characters to separate(which isn't a bad thing). Just having a strong system won't do enough either, as the big thing is how much development time is allotted. We know that having a lot isn't the end all, as shown by modes being ultimately DLC in Ultimate because of not having enough. If they were even base game to begin with(albeit, probably were?). If DLC wasn't planned in 2017, it's possible we never would've gotten said modes or it would've been pushed back to include that slight bit(unfortunately it would mean the last characters revealed altogether were Ken and Incineroar, but that's how it is).
 

Gengar84

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Yeah, the main reason I like the Vs. Idea is that it gives the newer games something that sets them apart from Ultimate without feeling like lesser versions of that game. I do agree that at some point, it’s going to be feasibly impossible to just keep adding content on top of what we already have. The Vs. approach lets the roster stay at a more manageable size while still keeping things fresh every game. I’m struggling to see a reason to get hyped about “Ultimate with less content”. At that point, I think I’d just keep playing Ultimate instead. Of course, it’s not the only way we could go, but I feel like it’s probably the easiest while still being pretty hype worthy.
 

RileyXY1

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This video couldn't have come out at a better time. Sakurai once emphasizing how much time, resources and licensing goes into each fighter and how EiH was literally a lighting in a bottle to have come true.


Either this a form of NDA or Sakurai is genuinely unsure is up in the air. My theory is that Sakurai is struggling to find a way to sell the next Smash. He probably knows that EiH can't happen so he, his team and Nintendo are finding to reduce workload whilst making it palpable for fans. Ultimate was a defining success so the struggle is real.
Exactly. We're lucky to even have Ultimate in the state that it's in. And unfortunately I do think that the next Smash game will have a massive roster cut down, as it's by far the more realistic option here. At least Ultimate will still exist to come back to.
 

Gengar84

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I made a Video on why i would quit Smash over toon Link or the Smash Toon Link Dilemma:
Yeah, that’s the one problem with having so many different incarnations of the recurring Zelda characters and Smash only giving us one, especially in a hypothetical scaled back roster. We all have our own favorite version and it can be a letdown to see them replaced by different incarnations of the same characters. My personal favorites are OoT Link and Ganondorf and TP Zelda. Link was my favorite Smash character in 64 and Melee and Zelda was my favorite in Brawl. Both have fallen quite a bit now with different versions although I like the current ones well enough. It partially makes up for losing them now that I got OoT Ganondorf back and he and Sephiroth are my current favorite Smash characters.

I can also relate to the fear of your favorite being cut. I’m not particularly confident about Sephiroth’s chances of returning and Ganondorf will likely be replaced by his TotK version. I’m not going to stop playing just based on those changes but I can definitely relate to the disappointment.
 

RodNutTakin

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Alright this stuff is making my head spin so I'm going to try and get to a bottom line here.
I went ahead and took my prediction I posted several pages ago and made a crude and simplistic project plan idea after modifying my predictions a bit for the sake of argument. It will be in a spoiler due to vertical length.
I want to know mainly in terms of numbers over actual character choices, does this seem reasonably feasible from a development standpoint? Be blunt because I am ready to try and debate this when I can.
 

Sucumbio

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Alright this stuff is making my head spin so I'm going to try and get to a bottom line here.
I went ahead and took my prediction I posted several pages ago and made a crude and simplistic project plan idea after modifying my predictions a bit for the sake of argument. It will be in a spoiler due to vertical length.
I want to know mainly in terms of numbers over actual character choices, does this seem reasonably feasible from a development standpoint? Be blunt because I am ready to try and debate this when I can.
I can't even buy BWD booo nah it's all good that's actually way more thought out that I do, I just have a most wanted and some loose predictions. I can't even predict bamcos involvement at this time.
 

Nabbitfan730

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first step to repeating EiH would be getting Namco Bandai to develop it again.
Problem is that the Bamco team had disbanded to work on other projects notably Tekken or games as a such. Sakurai was only able to hold on the same team because Ultimate's development started immediately after 4's DLC like he mention at the video.

This isn't the case this time around.

Alright this stuff is making my head spin so I'm going to try and get to a bottom line here.
I went ahead and took my prediction I posted several pages ago and made a crude and simplistic project plan idea after modifying my predictions a bit for the sake of argument. It will be in a spoiler due to vertical length.
I want to know mainly in terms of numbers over actual character choices, does this seem reasonably feasible from a development standpoint? Be blunt because I am ready to try and debate this when I can.
A relatively much better reboot mock up roster but honestly, I'm against having veterans choices for DLC. It feels like cut content done purposeful to charge extra when from going Ultimate even though it may not be the case.

I rather they announced all the returning veterans in all one go like they did for E3 2018 and then have all the base and DLC newcomers to be, well, NEWcomers.
 
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RodNutTakin

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I'm glad both of you like it, but I was trying to ask here if what I laid down is something that could be done realistically in terms of veteran and newcomer count, particularly for the base game. That's what I'm trying to get a good grasp on here in terms of expectations, since a few of the users here have been talking about potential issues and what not. I just want to get a good idea as where the bar is set for people here with my thing.
 

Hadokeyblade

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I rather they announced all the returning veterans in all one go like they did for E3 2018 and then have all the base and DLC newcomers to be, well, NEWcomers.
I just think they'll most likely sell us veterans through dlc because every other fighting game does it.

Alright this stuff is making my head spin so I'm going to try and get to a bottom line here.
I went ahead and took my prediction I posted several pages ago and made a crude and simplistic project plan idea after modifying my predictions a bit for the sake of argument. It will be in a spoiler due to vertical length.
I want to know mainly in terms of numbers over actual character choices, does this seem reasonably feasible from a development standpoint? Be blunt because I am ready to try and debate this when I can.
Seems fine enough, but i would put Sora in there somewhere.
 

Kirbeh

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Alright this stuff is making my head spin so I'm going to try and get to a bottom line here.
I went ahead and took my prediction I posted several pages ago and made a crude and simplistic project plan idea after modifying my predictions a bit for the sake of argument. It will be in a spoiler due to vertical length.
I want to know mainly in terms of numbers over actual character choices, does this seem reasonably feasible from a development standpoint? Be blunt because I am ready to try and debate this when I can.
I mean, it could be feasible but that depends on how much content actually gets/can be ported over/recycled. And that depends on how close they intend for the new game to be to Ultimate.

If we're talking realistic predictions, I would personally go lower with a 50-60 character roster.

I also don't see a world where third party DLC characters get sold for a lower price tag. Even if they are veterans they're going to be priced as standard. I could see them doing that for first parties, but even then I'd be surprised.

Last point is a minor nit pick but why are we doing the uneven fighters pass again?
 

Will

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I am maintaining my take that the next game will have cuts but I don't think it will be scorched earth like a lot of people suggest.
If you can’t have what you want, burn it down and start over. I see a lot of people here with that mentality for the next game. :iwatadirect:
 

Kirbeh

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I am maintaining my take that the next game will have cuts but I don't think it will be scorched earth like a lot of people suggest.
I suppose that also depends on how you would define scorched earth for Smash's roster.

I personally want for everyone to be maintained but it's not the end of the world if the roster count drops to the 50s or 60s we'd still be looking at 70-80 characters after DLC.

At the other end of the extreme you have people who get upset at the notion that the next game won't open with 80+ base and break 100 after.

To me an actual scorched earth scenario would be going down to Melee sized roster of 20-25ish.
 

SPEN18

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Sakurai is talking about future of Smash here again. Hint of licensing fee, but mostly, it comes down to development time.
He also doubles back down on some of the other factors I mentioned earlier, like the similarity between the Switch and Wii U, and being able to take the same team straight from 4 to Ult.
 

RodNutTakin

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I mean, it could be feasible but that depends on how much content actually gets/can be ported over/recycled. And that depends on how close they intend for the new game to be to Ultimate.

If we're talking realistic predictions, I would personally go lower with a 50-60 character roster.

I also don't see a world where third party DLC characters get sold for a lower price tag. Even if they are veterans they're going to be priced as standard. I could see them doing that for first parties, but even then I'd be surprised.

Last point is a minor nit pick but why are we doing the uneven fighters pass again?
This is on me, but I did envision the third party vets having a different price tag than the first party vets, maybe they'd be cheaper than a Challenger Pack by a couple of bucks while the first party vets are like $1.99 or $2.99.

I might give FP1 another fighter but yeah, my bare minimum expectation for newcomer DLC is at least as many fighters as Ultimate's passes. I didn't want to get too hopeful and include a FP3 (partially since that'd mean having to guess if there'd be any first party newcomers in consideration for that long and because I'm honestly not as confident in any newcomer picks beyond what I laid out.)

75 fighters in base does seem like wishful thinking, but it's genuinely hard to think of any more characters I could comfortably remove from my veterans section besides maybe Falco or Wolf being put into the DLC section.

Though to be completely honest? I think the next Smash should have a longer development period. Both Melee and Ultimate in particular suffered the most from what I feel was a case of releasing the game too early; Melee had quite a few obvious inclusions omitted, certain characters were buggy or unfinished, the Adventure Mode felt half-developed, among other things. It's a miracle that game came out the way it did under a tight 13 month schedule. Similar thing with Ultimate, I always felt a bit off about the game being announced and released within the same year when every other title wasn't like that, and I definitely think if it had one more year of development, certain aspects of the base game (primarily the new stage count and singleplayer content) wouldn't have been so dry.
Basically at the end of the day, if bringing a quality game with 70-75 fighters on launch requires another year or two of development than is tradition, so be it. I'd rather wait a bit longer for a product that I'd be more satisfied with than get a game sooner that I feel incomplete about in some way. I'm perfectly fine with Smash becoming a "middle of the system's life" franchise instead of it usually being a year 1 or 2 title.
 

Louie G.

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I was trying to ask here if what I laid down is something that could be done realistically in terms of veteran and newcomer count
In my mind it's closer to 50ish vets and 10-12 newcomers. I definitely don't think we're gonna see the roster get sliced down to half size or something but depending on what is offered in base (hopefully more emphasis on single player modes?) and what adjustments are being made to veterans something is gonna have to give.

64 feels like the magic roster number to me, maybe for sentimental reasons given the series' roots, but also slots in right between the roster scale of Smash 4 and Ultimate which feels correct. I agree with you on how after a certain point the cuts become a lot less easy to reason with. There are a lot of characters like Palutena, Wolf and Duck Hunt who I can't bring myself to see go but might be more "on the bubble" - when I break it down to what I consider the bare essentials it only leaves me room for a handful of pet picks. I'm flip flopping on it pretty often.

Bottom line I feel like you narrowed it down to who I personally consider the more important characters, I can tell you made an effort to keep nearly every unique first party series represented, but it gets tricky because I still feel deep in the back of my mind that it's too optimistic.
 
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SPEN18

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It seems likely that they wouldn't decide right from the start exactly how much DLC they're going to do. They will probably take it one "pass" at a time like before, first planning a batch of 5 or so characters, and then deciding during/after each round if they will do another one. How much DLC we get could depend a lot on how the next console and the game itself perform/last. If Sakurai is directing, it could also depend on how much he wants to stay on for.

As for vets, it will likely be like Smash 4 where they basically just give us the fighters who just barely missed base. It helps them recoup the otherwise lost effort on characters who had significant work done but were cut mid-development. In fact, for many of the vets that get cut, having significant work already done on them is pretty much the only reason they are even viable as DLC choices over potentially brand new characters they could make instead.

For cut third party vets there is less precedent but the situation is going to be quite complicated. Due to licensing negotiations, third parties are probably either in or out for base, not in a situation where the final decision comes mid-development. So for third parties potentially returning as DLC, the devs would basically have to be confident that they can sell like newcomers because they wouldn't be in a half- or near-finished state like some first party vets, and on top of that would have the usual licensing costs and negotiations involved.

These factors and the likely sheer number of cuts make me think they will not try to use DLC as a way to get back to an EiH or almost-EiH situation.

If they use the "pass" model again, it remains to be seen if some or all vets would take those slots or if vets would be separate a la carte releases, or sold as another bundle of characters separate from the pass.
 

Louie G.

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you guys think :ultsora: will get cut?
Yes unfortunately, unlike other overwhelming fan demanded picks like Mega Man or Banjo & Kazooie I don’t believe in Disney’s good will enough to have Sora return as anything other than DLC once again.

I do believe there would be more effort given toward characters with that demonstrated popularity, Ballot picks will likely be kept close to the heart (Ridley is here forever I truly believe that) but Sora’s situation is a unique one that has already been presented to us as a miracle. But I think it would likely to see him appear as DLC again if they decided to have veterans return in that way.

Granted I know as much as anyone else about the future of Smash, which is nothing, but I think out of the third parties we’ve got Sora is probably the hardest one to lock in a second time.
 
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fogbadge

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you guys think :ultsora: will get cut?
i mean he is pretty much the most voted character in the smash ballot so it would be strange if he gets the cut i could see him come back as DLC
hard to say. disney apparently being happy to let him in makes it seem he's likely to return though we have to rely on disney not get carried away with their greed. again
 

SPEN18

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Once again, without any eligibility issues to worry about Ridley is a slam-dunk pick. Unless Metroid is going down to just one character, which is highly unlikely especially given its recent success, Ridley's safe.
 
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