Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dream1ng]

skateboarder performs triple flip
Audience: "It's too bad triple flips are impossible."

A skateboarder is in competition and has to perform a routine. The routine has a time limit and he has a number of tricks he can do. He does a number of his most well known tricks. He does a few tricks that impress the diehards. But that leaves him with only a bit of time left.

Does he perform all his old tricks? He could, he's done them before. It's probable he can still do them. Or does he prioritize doing some new tricks, because if he only does what he's already done, fewer people will be compelled.

If he had all the time in the world, he could do his entire old routine, and a bunch of new tricks. But each performer is only allotted a certain amount of time. So he prioritizes doing some new tricks over some old tricks. He cuts some out because others will go over better. It's not because he couldn't do them. It's because no matter his talent and capability, he is constrained by the limits of the event's design, causing him to be selective about what he chose to include.

 

[Oracle Link]

As long as toon or toy link are in im fine!
also an update to my selfdrawn roster you might ask isnt it biased and i say YES COMPLETLY (or mostly)

also its harder to bring myself to draw characters i dont care for!

 

[DarthEnderX]

A skateboarder is in competition and has to perform a routine.

No he isn't. But I'm amused you wasted 3 paragraphs turning this hypothetical "guy who did a trick" that I made up into a hypothetical "professional with a long and storied skateboarding career".

"They can do it again" isn't the argument you think it is. Especially when Snake didn't come back in 4. Clearly they always cannot do it again every time. We know that for a fact.

It's always a bad argument. Circumstances change.

And "circumstances change" is a bad argument against, because it A. Assumes that circumstance HAVE changed. Circumstances CAN change, that doesn't mean that they did. And B. Assumes that the circumstances have changed for the worse.

Even though there's absolutely NO indication that Nintendo's circumstances are worse now than when they made Ultimate. And every indication that their circumstances are much better.

 

[RileyXY1]

Another thing making a port unlikely (besides the Switch being a massive success sales-wise) is that the next Nintendo console might be backwards compatible with the Switch itself, meaning that you could play Ultimate as is on the new system.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Well I suppose the question is why does Sakurai think Ultimate can't be topped roster size wise?

Because actually building a smash character is harder than other fighting games rosters.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The thing to remember about Nintendo as well is that they have demonstrated a willingness to experiment and go in new directions if they feel they've gone as far as they can with certain IP's at the moment. If they and Sakurai feel that "different" is preferable path for Smash rather than "bigger", it would not be uncharacteristic of what the company does.

 

[fogbadge]

correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t actually quite unusual for a fighting game to bring back guest characters? With my limited experience smash seems to be the only one who does and even some of them I’m not sure we can count as guests anymore

 

[CannonStreak]

correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t actually quite unusual for a fighting game to bring back guest characters? With my limited experience smash seems to be the only one who does and even some of them I’m not sure we can count as guests anymore

They might not necessarily be guest characters, but I don't think Smash Bros. is like other fighting games in many regards. It is supposed to be a celebration of gaming overall, after all.

 

[osby]

correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t actually quite unusual for a fighting game to bring back guest characters? With my limited experience smash seems to be the only one who does and even some of them I’m not sure we can count as guests anymore

I wouldn't say the only one but I really can't think of many that do it.

Under Night In-Birth's guests are a mainstay at this point but since there are only two of them, it's not as big of a deal.

 

[Noipoi]

Sonic doesn't even feel like a guest character at this point.

 

[fogbadge]

They might not necessarily be guest characters, but I don't think Smash Bros. is like other fighting games in many regards. It is supposed to be a celebration of gaming overall, after all.

smash certainly is an outlier in many regards but I do wonder if we can expect it to remain one

smash certainly is an outlier in many regards but I do wonder if we can expect it to remain one

I wouldn't say the only one but I really can't think of many that do it.

Under Night In-Birth's guests are a mainstay at this point but since there are only two of them, it's not as big of a deal.

I’ll have to look that one up

Sonic doesn't even feel like a guest character at this point.

Agreed

 

[Louie G.]

I think Smash's trajectory as a franchise justifies their "guests" becoming a bit more than guests, moreso than other series where the crossover aspect is not at the forefront. You add Street Fighter to Smash and it feels like one of the guys, because there are so many series in the game already. You add Street Fighter to Tekken and that's distinctly a "guest" because they're crashing in on a cast that otherwise all shares the same universe.

Sonic doesn't even feel like a guest character at this point.

I think out of everyone, Mega Man feels the least like a guest. He's the most frequent third party to just randomly pop up in other characters' trailers (hi Bowser Jr, hi Ridley) and in general just feels like he's been built on in a very natural way. Sonic is arguably the most "essential" but his representation still suffers from that third party handicap.

Only having one original arrangement to his name definitely stands out (and I blame Sega for that over Sakurai's own neglect - Sega still technically "owns" that single remix under Sega Sound Team).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They don't feel much like Guests after a point, indeed.

Sure, they still are for all intents and purposes, but I love how they integrated themselves swimmingly into the franchise.

 

[Will]

Sonic doesn't even feel like a guest character at this point.

He sure plays like one with his distinct four three two special moves.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Smash Bros is still centered around Nintendo. It started off with just Nintendo characters and content, the roster is still filled with mostly Nintendo characters, and the references are still mostly Nintendo. So I still consider third-party characters as guest.

Overall, Smash Bros feels more like a celebration of Nintendo history but the third-party characters or series involved are a part of their history. In fact, Nintendo was involved with each of these series or companies at some point prior to Smash. Many series started on Nintendo consoles, became more famous on them, and in a few cases were even owned by Nintendo themselves.

And there's more third-party connection to their history that still hasn't been showcased yet.

 

[Louie G.]

He sure plays like one with his distinct four three two special moves.

Come to think of it, since guest characters tend to be more mechanically complex and oppressively faithful to their source material, Sonic being a frankenstein of ball attacks and random moves from Brawl veterans actually makes him feel more like a part of the family LOL

 

[DarthEnderX]

The thing to remember about Nintendo as well is that they have demonstrated a willingness to experiment and go in new directions if they feel they've gone as far as they can with certain IP's at the moment.

If Mario Kart and Pokemon are any indication, that's not a willingness that they display with their most successful franchises.

Because actually building a smash character is harder than other fighting games rosters.

I'm sorry, what? Most Smash characters have way less complicated movesets than most other fighting.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

He probably doesn't. He's probably just trying to manage fan expectations in case they can't.

Yeah honestly people put way too much power on what Sakurai says despite that at the end of the day he's just doing PR. He's not going to say straight "yes, next Smash will have more characters than Ultimate, I hope you look forward to it" because if it doesn't happen people would be outraged. Of course he's going to play safe and say that doing better than Ultimate is impossible.

Hell, he said literally the same thing at Smash 4 era. In 2012 (right when Smash 4 started development), Sakurai said in an issue of Nintendo power:
“It isn’t a matter of ‘if the next game has 50 characters, that’ll be enough.’ There is a certain charm to games that have huge casts of playable characters, but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine-tune each character and have them all feel distinctive…. In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible. I think a change of direction may be what’s needed.”

And after Smash 4 development in 2015 he said in an interview with Game Informer when asked if there will be another Smash bros:
"I don’t think there will be. Our intention here was to provide extra merits to the game which go far beyond the sale price. In terms of scope, and in terms of sheer number of characters, we went beyond our limits long ago."

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah honestly people put way too much power on what Sakurai says despite that at the end of the day he's just doing PR. He's not going to say straight "yes, next Smash will have more characters than Ultimate, I hope you look forward to it" because if it doesn't happen people would be outraged. Of course he's going to play safe and say that doing better than Ultimate is impossible.

And even then, his statement wasn't that definitive. He said he "doesn't think it will be repeated". Not that it's impossible.

correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t actually quite unusual for a fighting game to bring back guest characters? With my limited experience smash seems to be the only one who does and even some of them I’m not sure we can count as guests anymore

Smash's 3rd Party fighters aren't really guest characters. Because Smash is a crossover game, nobody is actually FROM the "Smash universe" itself, which would mean, technically, the entire roster is guest characters.

Calling Sonic a guest character in Smash is like calling Spider-man a guest character in MvC.

 

[Noipoi]

If Mario Kart and Pokemon are any indication, that's not a willingness that they display with their most successful franchises.

Well Nintendo doesn't make Pokemon, Gamefreak does. And with a few exceptions they've never showed a willingness to experiment.

As for Mario Kart...why fix what ain't broken?

 

[Opossum]

Using Pokémon Specifically as a counterpoint is very funny to me in a post-Dexit world.

 

[SPEN18]

Yeah, for the BETTER. Nintendo is in an even better place now than they were in 2016.

Like, seriously, where does this belief that it's harder now even come from? Because it seems pulled out of thin air.

- It isn't going to be as easy or sensible to port assets from the Switch to the next console, like it was from the Wii U to the Switch. The next console is likely going to be a big step up in its capabilities. The Switch was much more similar to the Wii U, mostly due to the move to the hybrid model but also somewhat due to the Wii U's shorter lifespan. Doing what they did for Ult probably isn't even going to be viable.

- The fact that there was such heavy asset reuse in Ult to begin with means a lot of stuff will be even more outdated than normal when they go to the next system.

- Ult coming so soon after 4 helped with reassembling a dev team. Even if they are able to get BN back to develop, it won't be as seamless a transition this time.

- There are even more characters to bring back now than there were for Ult, and even more companies involved. EiH was on the brink of not happening for Ult already.

 

[DarthEnderX]

As for Mario Kart...why fix what ain't broken?

That's...exactly my point.

Why experiment with Smash when it's already one of Nintendo's most popular games?

Using Pokémon Specifically as a counterpoint is very funny to me in a post-Dexit world.

It's being used as a counterpoint to "willingness to experiment", not "Everyone is Here".

 

[toonito]

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someone modded smash to move on the background and foreground and rotate the camera

how would yall feel if Smash 6 became a 3d fighter?

 

[Ivander]

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someone modded smash to move on the background and foreground and rotate the camera

how would yall feel if Smash 6 became a 3d fighter?

I don't think the next Smash Bros. should try to differentiate from the formula it's gotten down.

That said, I'm not against the idea of a Smash/Nintendo crossover spin-off trying something like this. Nintendo characters in a Power Stone/Arena Fighter-like game.

 

[dream1ng]

No he isn't. But I'm amused you wasted 3 paragraphs turning this hypothetical "guy who did a trick" that I made up into a hypothetical "professional with a long and storied skateboarding career".

Whenever you criticize the way something was written instead of addressing the point it makes it look like you've no counterargument.

 

[Schnee117]

Mario Kart won't have had a brand new non-gacha game for a minimum of 10 years by the time we get the next one and Pokemon is a franchise that suffers both from getting stale and the gradual decrease of the amount of actual content in the games. Incidentally people were more positive on PLA because it was doing something somewhat different even though it still suffers from a limited amount of content and technical issues like the main games do.

Conversely Zelda has gone with a full on open world with a robust physics engine and then added a full-on building aspect that has seen the series reach new heights and Mario Wonder allowing more developer freedom has seen the best reception a 2d Mario has seen since Super Mario World. There is always room for experimentation, especially when doing so with their other major franchises has proven to yield great results.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mario Wonder gives me faith that Nintendo is gonna deliver something great for DKC. Give me this exact development team for Donkey Kong! Throw in Retro Studios, and results will be amazing. This game is a joy to play.

 

[dream1ng]

Not sure you could pick worse examples than Pokemon and Mario Kart for arguing stability in the content considering they apparently don't experiment and yet cut massive chunks of their core content from game to game (at least, post-Dexit). That's the worst of both worlds for the point trying to be made, lol.

 

[Wonder Smash]

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someone modded smash to move on the background and foreground and rotate the camera

how would yall feel if Smash 6 became a 3d fighter?

I'd rather it stay 2D, like it always have been.

 

[dream1ng]

Tbf about returning "guests" (a word I try to avoid because it devolves into semantics), the only time third-parties could return where the goal of the game wasn't for everyone to return... only one of the two did.

I'm not saying this casts most in doubt of returning, I'm just saying we actually only have minimal precedent of how many do come back when that's not the explicit goal. To me it sounds like in 4 they didn't even try for Snake until the ballot.

The general belief is that a good number will return, and that's not an unreasonable take. It's just that... you never know, the precedent isn't actually too defined; it could surprise us. The prioritization of new third-parties could result in fewer returning third-parties than anticipated. We'll have to see.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

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someone modded smash to move on the background and foreground and rotate the camera

how would yall feel if Smash 6 became a 3d fighter?

It'd be cool to get a 3D Smash fighter.

Just not as Smash 6.

The two can exist concurrently like Mario.

Mario Wonder gives me faith that Nintendo is gonna deliver something great for DKC. Give me this exact development team for Donkey Kong! Throw in Retro Studios, and results will be amazing. This game is a joy to play.

Not that EPD Tokyo would be a bad choice either...

 

[Hadokeyblade]

correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t actually quite unusual for a fighting game to bring back guest characters? With my limited experience smash seems to be the only one who does and even some of them I’m not sure we can count as guests anymore

Yeah i dont consider Sonic a guest character at all. Seems like he's going to be stuck here like the smash 64 gang

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah i dont consider Sonic a guest character at all. Seems like he's going to be stuck here like the smash 64 gang

I do agree with you on that. There are more smash games with sonic than without now so it’s hard not see him as a mainstay.

back in the brawl days I did refer to him as a guest. just goes to show how things change

 

[DarthEnderX]

Whenever you criticize the way something was written instead of addressing the point it makes it look like you've no counterargument.

The point was complete nonsense. You went off on a completely unrelated tangent about the fictional skateboarding career of this simple analogy I used. The appropriate counterargument to that is, "Dude, get help..."

Not sure you could pick worse examples than Pokemon and Mario Kart for arguing stability in the content considering they apparently don't experiment and yet cut massive chunks of their core content from game to game (at least, post-Dexit). That's the worst of both worlds for the point trying to be made, lol.

Except that WASN'T the point trying to be made, lol.

how would yall feel if Smash 6 became a 3d fighter?

Smakken?

 

[dream1ng]

The point was complete nonsense. You went off on a completely unrelated tangent about the fictional skateboarding career of this simple analogy I used. The appropriate counterargument to that is, "Dude, get help..."

...you think it's... an unrelated story about skateboarding?

You think I just wanted to tell a nice little tale about a skateboarder that has no relation to the topic at hand?

For real?

Except that WASN'T the point trying to be made, lol.

Right, your point trying to be made was Smash won't experiment in new directions because Nintendo's most successful series, such as MK and Pokemon, don't (y'know, ignoring Mario and Zelda). But, Mario Kart and Pokemon don't at all support your point of "if they've done it before they can do it again", as both those series endure massive cuts to their content from game to game. At least post-Dexit. "Facts" don't exist in a vacuum.

So perhaps they're evidence of Nintendo not experimenting (which is itself debatable and requires ignoring the big series that do experiment), but they're also evidence that flies in the face of your earlier inciting argument which prompted the point about experimentation.

So, since people know how to extrapolate, you bringing them up is pretty ironic. And if you have to go "well they weren't an example to this" because it flies in the face of your actual thesis, then you've raised examples which undermine your own overarching point in pursuit of countering one specific line of thinking. Good job.

 

[Louie G.]

I get why Sonic is considered "the guy" having been the most consistent returnee, being in as many games as obvious mainstays like Wario, King Dedede and Diddy Kong. We're probably never going to see a Smash game without him and if we did we would never hear the end of it.

At the same time, I really do put Mega Man, Pac-Man and Ryu on that same level now. Not only are they all individually some of the biggest names in the game with a rich history as extended Nintendo family, Capcom is clearly one of the most ready and willing participants and Namco is helping make the damn thing. Time will tell if anyone from Ultimate will settle in alongside them - I feel like Simon has a similar role and they absolutely spoiled us with Castlevania goodies - but yeah I don't think I'm saying anything super controversial by saying those aforementioned four are probably about as safe as most mainstay first parties.

The big question marks are all the DLC guys, I think. And really I don't even know what to say outside of what I've already laid out in previous posts, anyone's guess is as good as mine. I've been avoiding going back and forth about certain roster elements that are complete unknowns and won't be clear to us for another three years minimally. I have my guesses and reservations about how it may go down but it's impossible for me to feel so strongly about the approach toward a game that we don't even technically know exists yet.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I doubt Megaman is ever getting cut, Capcom is just that easy to work with.

All you gotta do is ask nicely and boom, you got a Capcom character in your game.

 

[Mamboo07]

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someone modded smash to move on the background and foreground and rotate the camera

how would yall feel if Smash 6 became a 3d fighter?

I would prefer it as a spin-off.

 

[Wonder Smash]

correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t actually quite unusual for a fighting game to bring back guest characters? With my limited experience smash seems to be the only one who does and even some of them I’m not sure we can count as guests anymore

On the back cover of Smash 4, it does refer to Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man as "guest fighters", while describing the rest of the characters as an "Nintendo All-Stars". Even on the back cover of Brawl, despite Snake and Sonic being shown, it still says "Nintendo Worlds Collide".

This is why I say, at its core, Smash is still a Nintendo crossover series.

 

[CannonStreak]

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someone modded smash to move on the background and foreground and rotate the camera

how would yall feel if Smash 6 became a 3d fighter?

Very nice.

Though even if it is not perfected yet, I am not sure if this would work well for Smash 6. I would say keep the 2D gameplay for now.