Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[LiveStudioAudience]

I mean Donkey and Diddy played pretty similarly in the original DKC, and I haven't seen many suggesting that the latter should have been a smaller and more agile version of the former.

Honestly there's so many cool little mechanics from the Country titles that Dixie could easily use that her being even a semi-clone of Diddy always struck me as a bit of wasted potential.

 

[Gengar84]

I mean Donkey and Diddy played pretty similarly in the original DKC, and I haven't seen many suggesting that the latter should have been a smaller and more agile version of the former.

Honestly there's so many cool little mechanics from the Country titles that Dixie could easily use that her being even a semi-clone of Diddy always struck me as a bit of wasted potential.

Totally. My personal preference is for Dixie to use the animal buddies for her specials but that’s far from the only option. I also like the idea of a team with Kiddy. Unlike other transformation characters in Smash, Dixie and Kiddy are able to throw each other around to attack enemies and for increased mobility options. You also see both members on the screen the whole time though you only control one at a time. Even Dixie as a stand-alone character with no animal buddies has other options. For example, she could also use her guitar from her victory animation.

 

[Louie G.]

I've always envisioned Dixie Kong as the Wolf to Diddy's Fox, or in Brawl I think it would have ended up closer to Pyra and Mythra. I believe Dixie's instance slot was lumped in alongside Wolf's (and "Toon Zelda") so she likely would have been that kind of character. And I think that's good for her personally, they don't need to go out of their way to differentiate her from Diddy Kong in every single way, but she has enough of her own stuff going on that it would happen naturally. Mario and Luigi, etc etc.

I see characters like Dixie Kong and Shadow often suggested as echo fighters and then people say oh just change this move and that animation and make them faster / slower etc. That's not exactly how echo fighters work, when all those changes start piling up. Or uh, I guess there's Ken. But I think Ken is a special case whose reputation as THE clone precedes him and quite frankly I'd rather they just shed the echo fighter label for him entirely because it's not true.

I actually kinda wonder how she would have fought in Brawl, come to think of it. The gumball popgun wasn't a thing until Tropical Freeze so I'm curious what specials they would have went with, assuming that she would share a similar baseline to Diddy Kong. Maybe the animal friends thing would have been the way to go, or they could go harder on the whole guitar thing.

Also side note, the worst echo fighter suggestion I consistently see is when people suggest Doc Louis or Glass Joe over Little Mac. Need I say more? I would be over the moon to get another Punch Out character but that is not gonna be the way, lmao.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I mean Donkey and Diddy played pretty similarly in the original DKC, and I haven't seen many suggesting that the latter should have been a smaller and more agile version of the former.

Honestly there's so many cool little mechanics from the Country titles that Dixie could easily use that her being even a semi-clone of Diddy always struck me as a bit of wasted potential.

Before Diddy was revealed for Brawl, there actually were some people who said he'd be a Donkey Kong clone.

 

[CannonStreak]

Before Diddy was revealed for Brawl, there actually were some people who said he'd be a Donkey Kong clone.

And a lot of people thought of other characters being clones of other characters, like King K. Rool being a clone of Bowser.

Some people have no imagination, or don’t do their research.

 

[Louie G.]

King K. Rool being a clone of Bowser.

And Ridley being a clone of Charizard. Remember the Metroid game where he slams his head into a rock?

These arguments were always so funny and are especially antiquated now. King K. Rool had maybe the most obvious moveset ever, so obvious that Smash did pretty much exactly what we were all suggesting for a decade LOL. You don't even need much of an imagination to come up with that.

 

[CannonStreak]

And Ridley being a clone of Charizard. Remember the Metroid game where he slams his head into a rock?

These arguments were always so funny and are especially antiquated now. King K. Rool had maybe the most obvious moveset ever, so obvious that Smash did pretty much exactly what we were all suggesting for a decade LOL. You don't even need much of an imagination to come up with that.

Yeah, I know. I was not talking about King K. Rool, though; and it was not just about imagination, but researching characters as I said.

 

[Louie G.]

Yeah, I know. I was not talking about King K. Rool, though; and it was not just about imagination, but researching characters as I said.

Yeah I understand, I was just piggybacking off what you were saying with how ridiculous those got. It's a fun trip down memory lane. People had to actively try not to see the obvious moveset potential in front of them in order to justify hating popular characters. I remember arguments like, "well he COULD be a clone if they wanted him to" as evidence that these characters weren't unique or worth adding.

I'm glad that's largely behind us because both of the aforementioned big boys are on the roster now and Sakurai has made much, much crazier ideas work and broken all the boundaries and rules to movesets from the past. I mean, people are always gonna be dumb about characters they don't like (the Geno / Mii Gunner thing still comes up fairly often, although I suppose that one is a bit more justified) but it's a lot easier to counter those arguments with how far we've come with high concept movesets.

Oh I remembered a fun one, I once argued with a guy who said Little Mac couldn't be in because he can't pick up items. Some people just don't want to even try to come up with solutions lmao.

 

[SPEN18]

maybe anything seemed possible after Ganondorf over Captain Falcon lol

I could see that one warping someone's perception of reality

 

[CannonStreak]

Yeah I understand, I was just piggybacking off what you were saying with how ridiculous those got. It's a fun trip down memory lane. People had to actively try not to see the obvious moveset potential in front of them in order to justify hating popular characters. I remember arguments like, "well he COULD be a clone if they wanted him to" as evidence that these characters weren't unique or worth adding.

I'm glad that's largely behind us because both of the aforementioned big boys are on the roster now and Sakurai has made much, much crazier ideas work and broken all the boundaries and rules to movesets from the past. I mean, people are always gonna be dumb about characters they don't like (the Geno / Mii Gunner thing still comes up fairly often, although I suppose that one is a bit more justified) but it's a lot easier to counter those arguments with how far we've come with high concept movesets.

Oh I remembered a fun one, I once argued with a guy who said Little Mac couldn't be in because he can't pick up items. Some people just don't want to even try to come up with solutions lmao.

Yeah, no kidding! Not to mention, that Little Mac excuse about picking up items sounds so bad!

With that, on what you said about Sakurai having crazier ideas, I can say he does better at coming up with moveset ideas than some of the Smash Bros. fans (like the ones we are talking about now) seem to be able to come up with. Lol

 

[Troykv]

Most baffling suggestion I've seen for an Echo was Black Knight as an Ike Echo.

I mean seriously guys come on.

I think Black Knight could take some moves from Ike in a similar way Isabelle does with Villager (and other characters that are half clones like Mario/Luigi), but yeah, a full Echo isn't the right choice, Black Knight has some unique moves of his own, and he would need a completely different recovery move.

 

[dream1ng]

On one side you have people imposing their own lack of creativity onto a guy who's much better at this than they are. I swear some of these people seem like they'd be challenged to come up with movesets Melee-level in their complexity and originality.

On the other you have people arguing that x character shouldn't be a clone when the actual argument was that they could be a clone. Some people see it as arguing a clone is the best representation for that character, when that's never really the point being made. Not like... K. Rool over Bowser - that's dumb any way you cut it, but, like, Dixie over Diddy or something like that. Of course it's not the ideal way to implement Dixie, but it is an outcome that could happen.

And fwiw, I don't doubt those clone arguments existed (I remember some of them), but the one seared in my mind is Mega Man being a Samus clone. Maybe it sticks in the mind more and paints an unreliable picture because of how dumb it was, but I remember that being a more prevalent concern than the fact that during that time Capcom was actively rolling Mega Man up in a carpet to toss him into the river.

 

[Wonder Smash]

On the subject of a Sega crossover fighting game, I just can't help to say that if it were to be a series, I hope it would eventually have this theme in it:

Sege Genesis Medley!

 

[dream1ng]

Yeah I understand, I was just piggybacking off what you were saying with how ridiculous those got. It's a fun trip down memory lane. People had to actively try not to see the obvious moveset potential in front of them in order to justify hating popular characters. I remember arguments like, "well he COULD be a clone if they wanted him to" as evidence that these characters weren't unique or worth adding.

I'm glad that's largely behind us because both of the aforementioned big boys are on the roster now and Sakurai has made much, much crazier ideas work and broken all the boundaries and rules to movesets from the past. I mean, people are always gonna be dumb about characters they don't like (the Geno / Mii Gunner thing still comes up fairly often, although I suppose that one is a bit more justified) but it's a lot easier to counter those arguments with how far we've come with high concept movesets.

Oh I remembered a fun one, I once argued with a guy who said Little Mac couldn't be in because he can't pick up items. Some people just don't want to even try to come up with solutions lmao.

Smash 4 was filled with common candidates who people didn't believe would be feasible. Most of the newcomer roster, in fact. Plus Ridley and Chrom. I remember people saying all Little Mac could do was punch. Well... that's still enough to make a moveset with.

I guess it's a good show of progress that this time the "wouldn't work/be original" arguments were localized mostly to Isabelle, Steve and a Tekken character. Yes others had feasibility-based dissent, but it didn't proliferate that heavily.

That said, to your second paragraph, there's always gonna be some people out there who seriously say things like Crash wouldn't offer enough to get in apart from spinning or that Master Chief/Doom Slayer wouldn't be unique if we already had the other.

 

[MasterCheef]

More Switch 2 news

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[Wonder Smash]

Yeah I understand, I was just piggybacking off what you were saying with how ridiculous those got. It's a fun trip down memory lane. People had to actively try not to see the obvious moveset potential in front of them in order to justify hating popular characters. I remember arguments like, "well he COULD be a clone if they wanted him to" as evidence that these characters weren't unique or worth adding.

I'm glad that's largely behind us because both of the aforementioned big boys are on the roster now and Sakurai has made much, much crazier ideas work and broken all the boundaries and rules to movesets from the past. I mean, people are always gonna be dumb about characters they don't like (the Geno / Mii Gunner thing still comes up fairly often, although I suppose that one is a bit more justified) but it's a lot easier to counter those arguments with how far we've come with high concept movesets.

Oh I remembered a fun one, I once argued with a guy who said Little Mac couldn't be in because he can't pick up items. Some people just don't want to even try to come up with solutions lmao.

Somebody actually tried to argue that with Little Mac? Wow!

Smash 4 was filled with common candidates who people didn't believe would be feasible. Most of the newcomer roster, in fact. Plus Ridley and Chrom. I remember people saying all Little Mac could do was punch. Well... that's still enough to make a moveset with.

I guess it's a good show of progress that this time the "wouldn't work/be original" arguments were localized mostly to Isabelle, Steve and a Tekken character. Yes others had feasibility-based dissent, but it didn't proliferate that heavily.

That said, to your second paragraph, there's always gonna be some people out there who seriously say things like Crash wouldn't offer enough to get in apart from spinning or that Master Chief/Doom Slayer wouldn't be unique if we already had the other.

Both which I always find very annoying. It makes me wonder if those people even played those games or just have a severe lack of a creative mindset.

 

[osby]

The most baffling clone suggestions are actually when people look at characters who get into Smash and insist they are cpones when they are not. Charactrs like Lucario and Corrin are probably the worst examples but I think Joker deserves a special mention for the "roster clone" arguments.

 

[DarthEnderX]

On one side you have people imposing their own lack of creativity onto a guy who's much better at this than they are. I swear some of these people seem like they'd be challenged to come up with movesets Melee-level in their complexity and originality.

Or maybe they just recognize that these characters won't be playable any other way. And would rather have them as a semi-accurate clone/echo, than not have them at all.

Cause guess what Black Knight fans? He is NEVER getting a unique moveset. So if you don't want him being an Ike echo, you will spend the rest of your lives being disappointed by his absence.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I remember when Lucario being a Mewtwo clone and Ike being a Marth clone weren't just brought up, but were extremely common sentiments.

 

[Louie G.]

I remember when Lucario being a Mewtwo clone and Ike being a Marth clone weren't just brought up, but were extremely common sentiments.

I cannot stress enough how valuable the echo fighter label has been. You never hear anyone call characters like Wolf or Lucas straight up clones anymore.

 

[dream1ng]

Or maybe they just recognize that these characters won't be playable any other way. And would rather have them as a semi-accurate clone/echo, than not have them at all.

Cause guess what Black Knight fans? He is NEVER getting a unique moveset. So if you don't want him being an Ike echo, you will spend the rest of your lives being disappointed by his absence.

That's coming at it from a very different angle than I was, but that happens too. That line in the quote was regarding characters people may acknowledge have enough to get in, but they can't fathom how they'd offer enough for a full moveset. Like when they say all Crash can do is spin, so they may not be able to realize him. They don't even give him some poorly-grafted existing moveset, they just conclude his feasibility would be at best, borderline.

Even though we've got stuff like DHD and WFT.

It's sort of the opposite of a character that would only really be able to make the cut if they were clone fodder because they didn't have the pedigree and/or distinction for originality, like someone like Doc or either of the Dark versions. But in the following paragraph I did contrast between the completely absurd clone suggestion and the one made despite not being ideal for the character, but being a possibility nonetheless.

And Black Knight isn't getting in either way tbh, but I guess people aren't ready to throw hope away completely and remain clutching a dubious echo.

I cannot stress enough how valuable the echo fighter label has been. You never hear anyone call characters like Wolf or Lucas straight up clones anymore.

You've also kind of lost semi-clone speculation though, where now things seem partitioned more dichotomously between original and echo - even though Ultimate had a new semi-clone and we very well might keep getting them with characters like Octoling.

 

[SPEN18]

I cannot stress enough how valuable the echo fighter label has been. You never hear anyone call characters like Wolf or Lucas straight up clones anymore.

While the Echo label has been successful in boosting education and awareness for the resource calculus behind clones and uniques, and the reasons why clones exist, I think things have tipped too far the other way.
Widespread acceptance of cloning reinforces the roster construction mentality of putting in characters with the minimum possible effort, without regard to the actual substance, purpose, and significance of each one that is there. It feeds into the fixation on the fighter count rather than placing proper focus on well-representing everyone. And it has also re-proliferated a lot of these out-there and often nonsensical clone ideas, shoehorning characters into movesets that don't really fit them.
I'd like to see the community readjust on these fronts.

 

[Geno Boost]

curious are there character can be an echo of character from different series or is that against the rule of echo fighter?
for example urban champion as an echo of little mac

 

[Sucumbio]

Well Ganondorf is an echo of captain falcon yeah?

 

[osby]

Well Ganondorf is an echo of captain falcon yeah?

Echo is a loose term to begin with but I'd say Ganondorf has way too many differences from Captain Falcon now to be considered as one.

 

[RodNutTakin]

Did a Smash Reboot Roster and some DLC too. This would have most Characters be designed as if they've never been added into Smash. Also 2D Art Style lol Art Credits:

• Redd by Dragoart.com
• Isabelle by Rongs1234
• Dragaux by Screwloose Studios
• Oatchi by eggnoogy
• Sukapon by fryguy
• Kumatora by HanifAnimations.
• .View attachment 379758

I'm sorry, but I'd throw up at the thought of having to pay for someone like Yoshi, Isabelle or King Dedede.
I'm already staunchly against a Smash reboot, but I can't help but feel that a lineup like this would absolutely crater enthusiasm for the series, even if it now had the gameplay depth of the Marianas Trench. I hate to be as brutally honest as I am about this but it's genuinely how I feel looking at this.

 

[Gengar84]

curious are there character can be an echo of character from different series or is that against the rule of echo fighter?
for example urban champion as an echo of little mac

Yeah, Blaziken would pretty close to a perfect echo of Captain Falcon. Balrog Hitmonchan, and Vi would make pretty cool Little Mac echoes (Balrog and Vi would have to be sized up making them more of Melee Ganondorf style clones than a true echoes though). While not one to one (Sephiroth lacks elemental magic), I think Magus and Sephiroth have enough similarities that he could work as a Sephiroth echo if he wasn’t getting in any other way. Bahamut and Diablo (Diablo 3 version) could probably work as a Ridley echo if they had to.

Of course none of these are going to be perfect but I think they at least all capture the general feel of the characters while sharing a few moves.

 

[fogbadge]

maybe anything seemed possible after Ganondorf over Captain Falcon lol

I could see that one warping someone's perception of reality

the smash fandom constantly seem to think anything is possible. hence why i never believe it when people claim they only want this character cause they can't get the one they really want

 

[DarthEnderX]

Widespread acceptance of cloning reinforces the roster construction mentality of putting in characters with the minimum possible effort, without regard to the actual substance, purpose, and significance of each one that is there.

Right. Because, again, the alternative was not getting them at all. Dark Samus, Dark Pit, Daisy, Richter, etc. were never going to get unique movesets. And I prefer, say, Dark Samus being in the game and playing like Samus, to Dark Samus not being playable at all.

It feeds into the fixation on the fighter count rather than placing proper focus on well-representing everyone.

Yes it does. And that's fine.

curious are there character can be an echo of character from different series or is that against the rule of echo fighter?

There's no rule. But currently, the game only has one clone of character from different series, Ganondorf. And everyone hates it. I doubt a cross-series echo would go over any better.

 

[Gengar84]

Right. Because, again, the alternative was not getting them at all. Dark Samus, Dark Pit, Daisy, Richter, etc. were never going to get unique movesets. And I prefer, say, Dark Samus being in the game and playing like Samus, to Dark Samus not being playable at all.

Yes it does. And that's fine.

There's no rule. But currently, the game only has one clone of character from different series, Ganondorf. And everyone hates it. I doubt a cross-series echo would go over any better.

Yeah, I totally agree with your stance in general on echoes. I would much rather see my favorite characters get in as echoes even if that means they aren’t completely accurate than not get in at all. My hang ups are that several echoes tend to stay that way in future games where they could have easily expanded to be more faithful to their own character. I personally feel like Dixie and Impa are each deserving enough to get in on their own merit without needing to be echoes. Other characters, like secondary Fire Emblem units don’t really have a ton of unique moveset potential and probably would never make it anyways so I’m more than happy to make that concession.

 

[Opossum]

Cause guess what Black Knight fans? He is NEVER getting a unique moveset. So if you don't want him being an Ike echo, you will spend the rest of your lives being disappointed by his absence.

Meanwhile literally every actual Black Knight fan I know when people bafflingly suggest that he can be an Ike echo.

The amount of Frankensteining you'd need to do and clipping issues you'd need to ignore in order for Black Knight to be an Ike echo would make Ganondorf and Dark Samus look Steve-levels of accurate by comparison. You keep acting like "Well it's echo or nothing" is some sort of gotcha when...it's not. It's not one at all. Literally every Black Knight fan I know is more than happy about him being an Assist Trophy, where he's accurately represented, sufficiently menacing, and given the respect he should have.

And even beyond that...Black Knight is far, FAR from the most requested Fire Emblem character anyway. Even just within the Tellius games he competes with Micaiah, who is demonstrably more popular both in a Smash sense and a Fire Emblem sense. And that's ignoring the numerous other Fire Emblem characters that are more requested from outside of Tellius. Lyn, Hector, Edelgard, Dimitri, Claude, and Alear all have significantly more support at this point. Hell, I'd argue that it's possible that Veronica does, and that Celica still has enough of her support from the heyday of SoV's relevance to eclipse him as well. And, again, Micaiah exists. So you'd be "appeasing" a fanbase that's pretty far down the line by giving them a bastardization of their character that they weren't even asking for.

It's like saying Nabbit should get in as a Bowser Jr. echo because he's never getting in otherwise. Meanwhile, yeah, people tend to like Nabbit...but he's also nowhere near the most popular character in his series when folks like Waluigi, Captain Toad, Geno, Pauline, or even the likes of King Boo or Birdo exist. So shoehorning him in as an echo in a way where he wouldn't even work, all to appease the three people who'd be fine with that, is the epitome of fitting a square peg into a round hole.

 

[fogbadge]

Meanwhile literally every actual Black Knight fan I know when people bafflingly suggest that he can be an Ike echo.

The amount of Frankensteining you'd need to do and clipping issues you'd need to ignore in order for Black Knight to be an Ike echo would make Ganondorf and Dark Samus look Steve-levels of accurate by comparison. You keep acting like "Well it's echo or nothing" is some sort of gotcha when...it's not. It's not one at all. Literally every Black Knight fan I know is more than happy about him being an Assist Trophy, where he's accurately represented, sufficiently menacing, and given the respect he should have.

And even beyond that...Black Knight is far, FAR from the most requested Fire Emblem character anyway. Even just within the Tellius games he competes with Micaiah, who is demonstrably more popular both in a Smash sense and a Fire Emblem sense. And that's ignoring the numerous other Fire Emblem characters that are more requested from outside of Tellius. Lyn, Hector, Edelgard, Dimitri, Claude, and Alear all have significantly more support at this point. Hell, I'd argue that it's possible that Veronica does, and that Celica still has enough of her support from the heyday of SoV's relevance to eclipse him as well. And, again, Micaiah exists. So you'd be "appeasing" a fanbase that's pretty far down the line by giving them a bastardization of their character that they weren't even asking for.

It's like saying Nabbit should get in as a Bowser Jr. echo because he's never getting in otherwise. Meanwhile, yeah, people tend to like Nabbit...but he's also nowhere near the most popular character in his series when folks like Waluigi, Captain Toad, Geno, Pauline, or even the likes of King Boo or Birdo exist. So shoehorning him in as an echo in a way where he wouldn't even work, all to appease the three people who'd be fine with that, is the epitome of fitting a square peg into a round hole.

now I’m picturing nabbit riding his sack like a koppa clown car

 

[Gengar84]

It’s not like Bowser Jr. or the Koopalings have source accurate movesets in Smash anyways. Of the games I’ve played, I don’t remember any of them riding a clown car. The clown car itself also plays very differently than Bowser’s boss fight in Super Mario World where it was constantly hovering in the air rather than driving around like a car.

I think both sides of the echo argument are right in their own way and make a lot of good points. It all depends on how much accuracy people are willing to sacrifice if it means getting to play as your favorites in some way. For some, they don’t want to see them if they can’t be completely accurate, which is totally understandable. Others are more accepting of those sacrifices in accuracy, which makes sense too. The only thing I struggle to understand is why people seem to be fine with some echoes and not others, especially where the echoes people support the most have a lot more unique moveset potential than those they are against (in my opinion).

 

[Opossum]

It’s not like Bowser Jr. or the Koopalings have source accurate movesets in Smash anyways. Of the games I’ve played, I don’t remember any of them riding a clown car. The clown car itself also plays very differently than Bowser’s boss fight in Super Mario World where it was constantly hovering in the air rather than driving around like a car.

It comes from the New Super Mario Bros. games, particularly Wii and U. The former has Bowser Jr. ride in it during his boss fights, and the latter takes that and expands upon it, alongside it being the first appearance of the attached boxing gloves.

 

[Gengar84]

It comes from the New Super Mario Bros. games, particularly Wii and U. The former has Bowser Jr. ride in it during his boss fights, and the latter takes that and expands upon it, alongside it being the first appearance of the attached boxing gloves.

Weird, I played at least one of the New Super Mario Bros. games and my mind totally blanked on that. My mistake.

Do you remember whether the clown car still hovered in the air in those games like it did in SMW? That’s the main aspect thatways bugged me in Smash. I feel like it should at least have had a Peach like float jump.

 

[osby]

Weird, I played at least one of the New Super Mario Bros. games and my mind totally blanked on that. My mistake.

Do you remember whether the clown car still hovered in the air in those games like it did in SMW? That’s the main aspect thatways bugged me in Smash. I feel like it should at least have had a Peach like float jump.

I don't think they'll ever give another character Peach's float jump given how much it can break the game, especially to a heavyweight.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Speaking of Bowser Jr., something that has always bugged me was that people completely ignored his inclusion when discussing villains in Smash 4.

So many people said Smash 4 didn't include any villains, but Jr. Was right there. Why doesn't he count? He's more recognizable than any villain not named Bowser at this point. The only one that comes close is Ganondorf.

 

[Opossum]

Speaking of Bowser Jr., something that has always bugged me was that people completely ignored his inclusion when discussing villains in Smash 4.

So many people said Smash 4 didn't include any villains, but Jr. Was right there. Why doesn't he count? He's more recognizable than any villain not named Bowser at this point. The only one that comes close is Ganondorf.

In general I think it stemmed from people wanting "final boss"-type villains more so than "mini-boss"-type villains.

 

[MasterCheef]

Well this certainly would make the Switch 2 more travel friendly.

Leaker opines foldable Nintendo Switch 2 could be on the cards based on third-party financial report for Korean electronic component manufacturer

A foldable Nintendo Switch 2 console could be in the works if a leaker’s opinion based on a third-party financial forecast report for Fine M-Tec is accurate. The tipster in question has been known to share details about Samsung-related products in the past but has misfired a bit in regard to...

www.notebookcheck.net

 

[fogbadge]

Speaking of Bowser Jr., something that has always bugged me was that people completely ignored his inclusion when discussing villains in Smash 4.

So many people said Smash 4 didn't include any villains, but Jr. Was right there. Why doesn't he count? He's more recognizable than any villain not named Bowser at this point. The only one that comes close is Ganondorf.

back then I thought it was between him and toad for next Mario character. then we got Rosalina